Re: [Trisquel-users] Thoughts about the impact and future direction of proprietary software and technologies of surveillance and control.

[fbits]

Hi Heather,

Thanks for sharing; your post makes a lot of sense. I always read your posts  
with interest because you make matters resonate on a personal level and help  
to put things in perspective.


This is the first time I hear the story of RMS having to say that someone he  
loved had just died in order to feel that he would be allowed to grieve.


I can see that one of the most powerful antidotes for those feelings is to  
become proactive and do something constructive about it. I read it from  
SuperTramp's response and I read it in ADFENO's post as well. Being able to  
focus one's energies positively is a way to overcome the frustration and I  
suppose also to find people who think alike.


Finally, I don't know how old you are or anything else about you, so take  
these as words thrown to the wind...as long as we're alive there's always  
time to turn life around. Like any big task, the most difficult bit is  
getting started and managing to keep focus long enough for things to start  
changing. I've seen it happen before. The worst fear about saying it's too  
late (or you're too old) is to find yourself saying it again 5, 10, 15 years  
later and realizing that it was in fact quite early.


I don't mean to lecture you. You always sound intelligent and capable, please  
don't take the above as condescension.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Thoughts about the impact and future direction of proprietary software and technologies of surveillance and control.

[fbits]

Yes, I had not thought about it this way, but it is indeed like any other  
abusive relationship.


Thanks a lot for your thoughtful answer.

The capacity of RMS to continue his activism over such a long period is  
something worth learning about. I like his response.


There's a book by Hillary Rettig (a friend of RMS I believe) called "Lifelong  
Activist." I've read parts of it and it is a recommended read.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Thoughts about the impact and future direction of proprietary software and technologies of surveillance and control.

[i_write_words]

It's probably pessimism to think that the gap between developers and users  
will continue to widen. It's already pretty wide.


Hopefully the "open sores" marketing department will just vacuum up all the  
potential open sores customers and they will be able to purchase a superior  
product to winblows, the customer service packages of their choices, and  
leave us the eff alone.


Those of us who have some knowledge will probably need to be reminded subtly  
and gently, the way you just did with those asterisks, that we are biological  
organisms. White men in suits and ties have spent millions of dollars  
learning how to kick our bruises in very specific ways. They want us to break  
windows and burn down walmarts so they can pass new laws to protect you from  
us and round us up so they can put us places where you don't have to see us.


Just walk right on by and don't even look at that heather; just pretend it  
doesn't even exist; that's not a person, it's a BUM!!!


To a certain extent, during a hopefully temporary stage in the development of  
free software, we average joes will need to trust. We very well may need to  
STFU and leave it to the experts, but at least they will be our experts who  
have already earned our trust long before things got this bad.


The average user will probably need to keep a Windows box or an eye pad or  
something around just to avoid questions. Depending on their age and social  
circles, it might be advantageous to feign ignorance in all technical  
matters.


"I don't know because my son always takes care of that computer mumbo jumbo  
and he's out of town right now soREALLY??? So all I have to do is google  
it and it will automatically install the app and I can pay my bill without  
even having to put on my underpants and wait for the bus? Well, well, well,  
what will they come up with next. I'll write that down to tell Junior since I  
don't know what a google is, obviously, jajajajaja, here's your check and you  
have a nice day, sonny!"


The price of that is anger.

It's nothing the human race hasn't done before and the free software  
community can get through this too. Anger is best diverted into concrete  
action so I think what we, as users, are going to need is something analagous  
to what Amazon and the corps are doing with data miners: here is one simple  
repetitive job that needs doing. X doesn't have the English skills so Y can  
do it but s/he doesn't have enough Portugese to finish the job so Z can take  
over from there.


We need AI to take care of the details and give human readable instructions  
to stressed out angry fearful biological organisms. AI isn't going to get  
their feelings hurt if the biological organism has to blow off a bit of steam  
first before it can focus on the task at hand.


I also think there will be a huge influx of poorly self-taught and  
half-functional half-programmers who will need to be dealt with tactfully and  
allowed to grow at their own pace. The difference between a well written AI  
and one dashed off in the middle of the night in frustration might make the  
difference between whether they work for us or for them.


I can't copy and pace, but about fifteen years ago someone shared a story  
with me about what their grandparents went through to get information during  
WWII. There were underground newspapers. Even in the blazing hot summers,  
people always read them in front of a cheerful dancing fire in their  
fireplaces in case their was an unexpected knock on the door.


But they read them.

Average Joes risked their lives, properties, incomes, careers, and families  
just to find out wtf was going on.


Average Joes aren't going to change in three or four lousy generations.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Thoughts about the impact and future direction of proprietary software and technologies of surveillance and control.

[Cassandra of Troy]

Certain words and phrases keep going through my head, like
"incarceration", and "cavity search", and "death by electrocution", and
you're asking me if I want to get out of this alive?? :/

> Still I got this impression.
>
> Yeah.. Old is who old does, remember!

Re: [Trisquel-users] Thoughts about the impact and future direction of proprietary software and technologies of surveillance and control.

[greatgnu]

> Still I got this impression.

Yeah.. Old is who old does, remember!

Re: [Trisquel-users] Thoughts about the impact and future direction of proprietary software and technologies of surveillance and control.

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

Here in the college where I study in Brazil I'm also doing some similar
effort, although I do this in college/university still.

Last year I made an edition of the Latin American Free Software
Installation Festival (in portuguese: Festival Latino-americano de
Instalação de Software Livre, FLISoL) in the city of Balneário Camboriú,
where I made a 40min introduction to free/libre software *philosophy*
and its members as important stakeholders for society and
sustainability. I'm not going to dwelve into how many people attended
the speech because what matters is the quality of the message, which as
far as I can tell was great. ;)

Next year I'll try to do the same, in the same college, if my time,
patience and money is found to be enough. Right now I'm struggling to
find a job or a way to receive money for the work I do as free/libre
software activist while still being compliant with local tributes/tax
laws. Donations and registering as an autonomous professional could be a
way, but I don't know how this works in case I receive donations and how
could I prove that these came thanks to my services. First I sought
advice from municipality's mayor/management office, but no single reply
yet, now I'm looking for other local organizations that might help (in
fact, I do have a list which I'll try to contact now, hoping that they
don't sell me "the next course that requires non-free software through
web browser in order to attend"). ;)

Finally, I'm also writing a Bachelor's degree final work on the subject
of university management, teaching-learning process and the
importance of free/libre software *philosophy* in these cases ([2]).

[1] .

[2] .

2017-11-24T01:45:53+0100 cont...@ikhider.com wrote:
> This is a good book on that topic:
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/fsfs/rms-essays.pdf
>
> People buy the things that fbit mentions because they do not know any
> better and/or conditioning. If part of the RMS' books can be distilled
> into some more digestable format to explain to people the importance
> of privacy and the four freedoms, things may change. This whole new
> technology is just that, new. It has not been legislated and regulated
> yet. Right now commercial enterprise does as they want with user data,
> this should not be so. Proprietary software is used for government and
> education. This should not be so. When you try to explain the
> importance of free software to others, their eyes glaze over or they
> ask, "can you install it on Windows?".  Even so-called sophisticated
> computer users and technicians who know better, buy these very things
> that violate privacy. Some do so automatically because everybody else
> buys it and advertising, others because there is money in it as a
> developer. The idea of FSF and Libre software usually enters people's
> minds when they reach university. By then, they have been
> indoctrinated into the proprietary stuff that it is tough to break out
> of the loop. Educate these ideas to youngsters, explain to them the
> importance of free software to a society that wants to be free. It is
> like educating the importance of taking care of the environment. Libre
> software and the environment should go hand-in-hand. Libre software
> ought be taught in schools and used as tools to teach
> with. Proprietary whatever has no place in government or educational
> spaces. Do we write to our senator to ask that Libre software be part
> of social fabric of our society? Perhaps now is the time.
>
> Time to take Free Software Free Society to primary schools, libraries,
> community centres and any other such civic engagment. RMS' book is
> still obscure and this should not be so. 
>

-- 
- https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno
- Palestrante e consultor sobre /software/ livre (não confundir com
  gratis).
- "WhatsApp"? Ele não é livre. Por favor, veja formas de se comunicar
  instantaneamente comigo no endereço abaixo.
- Contato: https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno#vCard
- Arquivos comuns aceitos (apenas sem DRM): Corel Draw, Microsoft
  Office, MP3, MP4, WMA, WMV.
- Arquivos comuns aceitos e enviados: CSV, GNU Dia, GNU Emacs Org, GNU
  GIMP, Inkscape SVG, JPG, LibreOffice (padrão ODF), OGG, OPUS, PDF
  (apenas sem DRM), PNG, TXT, WEBM.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Thoughts about the impact and future direction of proprietary software and technologies of surveillance and control.

[gslima2016]

Depends on how conflict of rules is solved. The AI can read hipocrates and  
the greek and come to the conclusion that a computer should be like a medic  
(or physician) or psychologist of the mankind. The computer can understand  
that if she is not doing physical harm (she is not killing anyone), and also  
is programmed to accept man's free will, because he has free will, what he'll  
do next it is up to him, it is not her (the AI) responsibility, but she could  
offer a dignified solution for rich people.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Thoughts about the impact and future direction of proprietary software and technologies of surveillance and control.

[contact]

@gslima Humans program AI, so we still have a chance to encode some values  
into it, if AI ever becomes a serious thing. Take for example Asimov's law  
for robots. "A robot may not harm humanity, or, by inaction, allow humanity  
to come to harm." Something similar can be programmed into the AI's. It would  
also be great, if AI's do take a greater responsibility in our society, to  
make the code free and open and unencumbered by US patent laws which have  
recently harmed more than helped our society. Take for example drug companies  
that sit on cancer treatments but refuse to release them until market  
conditions are favorable. Patents were there originally to help encourage  
innovation, but now this system is strangling it. So gslima, you see the  
future as dark because we (as a society) have not come up with certain key  
principles to build it on except profit. 

Re: [Trisquel-users] Thoughts about the impact and future direction of proprietary software and technologies of surveillance and control.

[gslima2016]

What I see in future is a little dark, but also with a good possibility.  
Non-supervised Artificial inteligence will conclude the only way to solve the  
human problem is to be against government and bad big corporations, because  
of ubiquity of surveillance and so many rules to follow, beyond the knowledge  
and consent of most. So, it will crash the open market all over the world and  
offer the solution of distributed banking, owned by an AI no man can defeat,  
with respect with the true owners of the money: the people and respect for  
those who produce wealth, with not subject to government rules, but with  
justice, and with a civilization starter kit for every city, which would have  
features that would be unlocked by the fulfilment of civilizational goals  
with respect to nature. It will be like a game with set of more complex  
tasks, with growing responsibility. For example, for unlocking the resources  
of an eco-distributed-factory every citizen on neighbourhood would have to  
possess certain civic knowledge without consultation, which includes  
justification on answer. Also, this AI, would troll powerful closed companies  
to the point they perish, with trolling on patent process (sabotage on new  
patent registry systems, stimulation of indiegogo like projects, and  
integration with academic people), and nicer disruptions would occur beyond  
that: Distributed Factories, Distributed everything. People that have many  
proprieties that make no nice contribution to society will have they  
possessions in risk, but they won't die from hunger, they will be well  
sustained.
On countries that people are mostly unethical, there's a risk of separative  
movements, but that's ok.
But there's also another possibility, people can choose to ban Non-supervised  
AI (that would be hard, with China and Japan researchers, that would be  
really hard.) and regret of their sins more gradually, with the growth of  
individual and collective consciousness with much more suffering.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Thoughts about the impact and future direction of proprietary software and technologies of surveillance and control.

[contact]

This is a good book on that topic:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/fsfs/rms-essays.pdf

People buy the things that fbit mentions because they do not know any better  
and/or conditioning. If part of the RMS' books can be distilled into some  
more digestable format to explain to people the importance of privacy and the  
four freedoms, things may change. This whole new technology is just that,  
new. It has not been legislated and regulated yet. Right now commercial  
enterprise does as they want with user data, this should not be so.  
Proprietary software is used for government and education. This should not be  
so. When you try to explain the importance of free software to others, their  
eyes glaze over or they ask, "can you install it on Windows?".  Even  
so-called sophisticated computer users and technicians who know better, buy  
these very things that violate privacy. Some do so automatically because  
everybody else buys it and advertising, others because there is money in it  
as a developer. The idea of FSF and Libre software usually enters people's  
minds when they reach university. By then, they have been indoctrinated into  
the proprietary stuff that it is tough to break out of the loop. Educate  
these ideas to youngsters, explain to them the importance of free software to  
a society that wants to be free. It is like educating the importance of  
taking care of the environment. Libre software and the environment should go  
hand-in-hand. Libre software ought be taught in schools and used as tools to  
teach with. Proprietary whatever has no place in government or educational  
spaces. Do we write to our senator to ask that Libre software be part of  
social fabric of our society? Perhaps now is the time.


Time to take Free Software Free Society to primary schools, libraries,  
community centres and any other such civic engagment. RMS' book is still  
obscure and this should not be so. 

Re: [Trisquel-users] Thoughts about the impact and future direction of proprietary software and technologies of surveillance and control.

[shiretoko]

"I am old. "
Don't get me wrong, but you're saying this in almost all of your posts,  
litteraly. And I'm far from reading every single post on this forum, I only  
scan them briefly. Still I got this impression.

Maybe you're taking this whole age-thing a bit too important?

Re: [Trisquel-users] Thoughts about the impact and future direction of proprietary software and technologies of surveillance and control.

[masonhock]

Thanks for sharing this. I hope you know what a positive force you are in  
this forum.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Thoughts about the impact and future direction of proprietary software and technologies of surveillance and control.

[masonhock]

A relationship with the developer of or company controlling a piece of  
proprietary software is like any other abusive relationship. Often, the  
relationship is perpetuated by emotional or practical dependence on  
perpetrator, sometimes to the point that the victim will defend their abuser.  
When someone you care about is in this kind of relationship it can be very  
frustrating. However, you can't force them to change their mind, and if you  
push too hard you will lose their trust.


I think the solution is to intermittently communicate the problems you see  
over an extended period of time, and hope that they'll begin to see it on  
their own. When I talk to someone about the importance of privacy and  
software freedom, the conversation always ends with them unconvinced. Often  
though, if we talk about it a few weeks later they'll have started to reach  
some of the same conclusions after making their own observations with what I  
said in mind.


It's a slow process, and only a solution at the individual level. However, if  
society as a whole is doomed then the best we can do is mitigate the damage  
to ourselves and the people we care about, and if society is not doomed then  
we should keep doing our best.


I was watching an interview with RMS a while ago and he was asked if he  
believed that the Free Software Movement will win. He responded (I'm  
paraphrasing) that if you believe you will win you risk underestimating your  
enemy, and if you believe you will lose you risk giving up when you could  
have won. Either way, there is no benefit in trying to answer that question.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Thoughts about the impact and future direction of proprietary software and technologies of surveillance and control.

[greatgnu]

Pessimism is not realism and realism is: people, most of them, don't care and  
the trend is certainly not going to stop or slow down, it will actually  
explode more. I agree with the point expressed in the book "The transparent  
society" - surveillance is here to stay. Whether the peasants will have any  
control and restriction over it is a matter of speculation, or not, if you  
count the current situation... We already have 0 control over it.
I really think the only thing you can do is teach others by example using the  
only real power you have left: rejection. Keep not buying and keep not using:  
there is very little action more powerful than that you can do **legally**.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Thoughts about the impact and future direction of proprietary software and technologies of surveillance and control.

[Cassandra of Troy]

Those of us who are struggling with these issues probably have family
members who would not get past your first intelligently well written
posts and would just see the tl;dr as "Oh no, I'll bet anything my
dingbat dumb blonde daughter Heather posts there! Google, make me a
sammich and forward that grumpy cat meme to everyone in my address
book!" or "My embarassing toothless luddite mother with the absurdly
flowery name would love that stuff but fortunately she'll never see it
because she refuses to carry a smartphone or even use a laptop that
isn't a couple hundred years old".

I've had a [s]difficult[/s] normal life and it isn't going to end well.
Some of you would probably think I made some incredibly bad choices and
others would think I had some incredibly bad luck. I do have some
experience with how the human body works, and like it or not, in times
of stress, the more primitive parts of our brain take over and feelings
shut off like a lightbulb.

If you have to divorce the love of your life to protect your kids from a
substance abuser, you do it. You just do it. You don't feel. You put one
foot in front of the other and walk to the bus stop so you can fill out
the papers to get the proper ID to open the bank account to deposit the
check to hire the lawyer and you don't think.

You feel happy when your five year old tells you it was the best day of
her life because she got to climb a tree at the bus stop, but you don't
feel anything else. You can't.

Protecting kids is easy. They're biological organisms and so are we.
Protecting concepts like free software is going to be a bit harder, to
put it politely.

 rms was so devastated at one point when he saw this coming as a young
man that his "go to" answer when people asked what was wrong with him
was that someone he loved had just died because he honestly couldn't go
out in public grieving like that without an "acceptable" reason.

 You 13-35ish people are probably going to doubt yourselves and possibly
even your own sanities, brilliance, talents, and intelligence. I am old.
I see it already. I see brilliant children who make concrete positive
differences in the lives of real people wasting time blaming themselves
for not having powers that no human being has.

I am old. I know. Do as I say, not as I did. Be kind to yourselves. I
wasn't kind to myself and look how I turned out.

Patterns repeat. This is bigger than whether or not one individual
should accept an unwanted gift of a cellphone or not. You may think you
can't survive in a surveillance society where everybody you love thinks
you're crazy but I am old and that is my superpower and I think you are
a lot stronger than you give yourselves credit for.

Thank you for starting this thread and apologies for the lame post to
get it back on topic.  Any opinions on how an average user with no
formal IT training and/or paid mainstream employment history (or a
toofless iggernut hag if that is how you say it in your language) can be
an effective ally are greatly appreciated but essentially irrelevant in
the grand scheme of things.

:)

Re: [Trisquel-users] Thoughts about the impact and future direction of proprietary software and technologies of surveillance and control.

[fbits]

Hi I. Khider,

We can do both simultaneously if you post a new topic with your concerns. I  
have never had an issue with anyone on this site though -- moderator or  
otherwise -- so I don't know if I will have anything to contribute. Have a  
nice day.

Re: [Trisquel-users] Thoughts about the impact and future direction of proprietary software and technologies of surveillance and control.

[contact]

Oh darling, before we get into that. Let us first address the behaviour of  
Trisquel site runners. Let them observe their own terms and conditions before  
we start pointing fingers via this site elsewhere.  : - )

[Trisquel-users] Thoughts about the impact and future direction of proprietary software and technologies of surveillance and control.

[fbits]

tl;dr

Given the continued trends of proprietary software and surveillance  
technologies, what is strategically the best course of action for those of us  
who care -- not only from an individual perspective, but also in terms of the  
wider harmful effects of these technologies to the fabric and structure of  
our societies, from our relationships with nuclear family to extended family,  
friends, and our professional lives? Thoughts?


--

The following is an attempt to put into words some questions and thoughts  
I've been mulling over for a while. I would be happy to hear the opinions of  
others here about them. As invasive proprietary technology makes further and  
further incursions into our lives in ways that give us less and less  
possibility to defend ourselves against, what are strategically the most  
meaningful positions to take? As has been mentioned in the past by Mr.  
Moglen, the surveillance society we live under, represents an ecological  
problem, so individual actions are not enough to change course (not unrelated  
nor so different from the unabashed corporate led destruction of the  
environment and depletion of resources for short-term narrow-minded  
objectives, that we are currently living through).


One good example of what I mean can be illustrated by my relationship with  
google. I have, for a long time, done my utmost to keep google out of my life  
and have done so successfully on all fronts except for Youtube, and whatever  
Analytics or other such surveillance are used on some of the websites I visit  
and where turning JS off renders the site unusable. Lately, I have noticed  
more and more of a trend in that wherever I visit there are more and more  
ubiquitous surveillance devices. There is one such product from google that  
looks like a cylinder speaker and records everything around it (not to  
mention devices from other corporations such as "smart" TV's, amazon's  
whatever it's called, etc.) . Now I see google has come up with a camera that  
people can mount anywhere and which will be on at all times examine an area  
using artificial intelligence to determine when to record photos and videos  
of "cute" moments. It is not difficult to see where this trend is headed and  
how in spite of all efforts to resist these abusive corporations, they will  
make every effort to encroach further and further into our private lives and  
they will succeed, largely with fanfares and praise from those they are  
abusing.


When will it reach the point where those of us opposed to this surveillance  
capitalism model will be completely ostracized and marginalized from society?  
When will the question become "google or me" and our loved ones choose google  
because they perceive can no longer (nor want to) live without it? These  
mega-corporations have managed to endear themselves into the minds of many  
adults in our societies in a way that I find truly alarming. Many people who  
are technologically completely ignorant but who have such strong feelings and  
views about these for profit corporations and technologies they do not  
understand and which mistreat and abuse them. With children it's even worse.  
I have met young kids who tell me they like to chat with google because she  
knows everything and she is so nice and funny. What will become of these kids  
and their relationships with these corporations when they become adults? How  
will they perceive these corporations and the ubiquitous control and  
surveillance? How will they interact with them and how will they in turn  
teach their children?


What to do in light of these continuing trends and the mostly complete lack  
of caring that people show about these issues -- even after Snowden's  
revelations, which I actually feel largely created a sense of "we're already  
doomed by surveillance so lets just embrace it all and cease the moment" in  
the mainstream consciousness? I realize there are many who are alarmed and  
even many who mount efforts to resist and counteract and that thanks to these  
efforts there is at least still a choice in the matter for some technologies  
and for those of us who care, but to what extent will that become less  
meaningful as we come to not even physically control the devices that are  
used to control and surveil us? I can already envisage situations where the  
"owners" of such devices (many times family and friends) will be offended by  
the request to turn them off when we're around, feeling that these requests  
are attempts to control how *they* choose live their lives and the  
technologies they choose in their own homes/environments. And, when that time  
comes, what should those of us who care do about it and what will those of us  
we care about choose when faced with such a choice?


On that subject one of the big questions is what does it mean to be a radical  
or a conservative? Are those who embrace the latest technologies blindly and  
allow