date:20021016

 That's how I see it, and DavidM sees it that way too, if I understand him. It's that perfect thing that gets him all riled up. :-) If I understand him, if you don't believe in the perfect doctrine then you are soft on sin. That just is not correct with me. 
 My understanding is simple. Works and receiving Christ do NOT mix. After you claim to have received Christ, and you have not t worked for Christ, you did not receive Christ. Faith without works is dead. \

 I, personally, while having met a great many men of God, have never met a perfect person.


Works relate to the kingdom, salvation is free James Templeton

Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test

Please send a Bible verse for Peter. Thanks.

Remember, Peter says that after we have suffered a while, God will perfect us. He also said, that he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin.

Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test


Glenn wrote:
 Works nullify grace  in salvation.Rom. 4:4-5;
 Rom. 11:6.

You are misusing these verses.  Neither of these verses say that works
nullify grace.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the
ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Rom 4:4-5)

This passage clearly says that a man is justified without works, by faith.
That is not the same thing as saying that works nullify grace.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the
election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise
grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace:
otherwise work is no more work.  (Rom 11:5-6)

This passage says that election is not of works, but of grace.  It does not
say that works nullify grace.  The truth is that there is no passage in the
Bible that says that works nullify grace.  Such a teaching is false and
unBiblical.

Glenn wrote:
 Works and salvation are not the same.

I agree.

Glenn wrote:
 If one is depending upon his perfection of works
 for salvation then that nullifies grace.

I agree.  As I said before, trusting in works nullifies grace, but works
themselves are a fruit of faith and do not nullify grace.

Glenn wrote:
 The verses you are using you are misusing.

David Miller wrote:
 No, I am not misusing them.  Read the whole
 epistle of 1 John and believe it.

Glenn wrote:
 1 John is about gnosticism, if I understand it.

I don't believe that, but even if the gnostics did appear prior to the
second century, what is your statement supposed to mean?  Does that mean we
don't need to read it?  Does that mean it does not apply to us today?  Does
that mean the teachings are tainted or not part of God's Word?  Why would
you react to my urging you to read 1 John and believe it with the statement
of, 1 John is about gnosticism?

Glenn wrote:
 Agreed, we OUGHT to but I have never met a person
 on TT or in person who does so perfectly.  NEVER.

But you would never know if you had if you yourself have sin in your life.
What criteria do you use to judge such matters, whether or not they do what
you would do in certain situations?

I do not judge whether others are perfect, so I could never make the
statement, I have never met such a person.  Neither do I judge myself, so
I could never say, I am perfect.  What I do know is what God says about
the matter, and he says that some men are perfect.  I believe God and the
Bible on this matter over what you say.  No offense intended, but that is
what you say to the Mormons, so I think you can understand it when I say it
to you about this subject.

Glenn wrote:
 And we DO live perfectly from time to time,

I'm glad to see you recognize that!  This is a great foundation, because
many Christians say they sin in thought and deed many times every day.

Glenn wrote:
 but not perfectly ALL the time.  I have yet
 to meet a person who never sinned after
 he was saved.

Go by what God says in the Bible rather than your lack of experience in
meeting a perfect person.

David Miller wrote:
 What verses in the Bible do you use to support
 your teaching that nobody is perfect like Jesus is
 perfect?

Glenn wrote:
 I gave many verses in the true/false test.

You gave verses, but not one of them said that God does not consider anyone
perfect.  Job 1:1 reveals that God considered Job perfect.

Glenn wrote:
 Now the reason I say, no one is without sin because sin
 is much more than not stealing, cheating, etc., to sin.

I agree that sin is much more than that.  Sin is whenever you do not walk in
love.

Sin is:
Transgression  1 John 3:4
Unrighteousness  1 John 5:17
Omission of known duty  James 4:17
What is not of faith  Rom. 6:23
Thought of foolishness  Prov. 24:9

Right.  I agree.

Glenn wrote:
 Again, David no lives in perfect peace, perfect love,
 perfect faith.  That is perfection.  That does not exist
 except in Jesus Christ.

Now you are using the term differently than how I use the term perfect.  As
I said before, the Bible has two uses of the word perfect.  One sense is in
the way of being complete with no room to grow.  I would agree
wholeheartedly that nobody on earth is perfect in this sense.  Neither was
Jesus when he was in the flesh, perfect in this sense.  However, another use
of the term is to indicate that someone is walking holy and without sin, and
doing all that God expects of him for his level of maturity.  That is the
sense in which I say that Christians can be perfect.

Glenn wrote:
 Question:  What denomination teaches this
 I am perfect doctrine?  Or what group of
 Christians teach this or used to teach this?

John Wesley, who founded Methodism, taught Christian Perfection.  My belief
about Christian perfetion is very similar to his.  Charles Finney of the
Presbyterians also taught it.

Glenn wrote:
 Are you perfect?

This question is a temptation and snare to those who walk in

Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test

Grace nullifies works. See below.

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the
election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise
grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace:
otherwise work is no more work." (Rom 11:5-6)

Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test

Glenn wrote:
Works nullify grace in salvation.Rom. 4:4-5;
Rom. 11:6.

Glenn - You agree below but deny here.

You are misusing these verses. Neither of these verses say that works
nullify grace.

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the
ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Rom 4:4-5)

This passage clearly says that a man is justified without works, by faith.
That is not the same thing as saying that works nullify grace.

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the
election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise
grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace:
otherwise work is no more work." (Rom 11:5-6)

This passage says that election is not of works, but of grace. It does not
say that works nullify grace. The truth is that there is no passage in the
Bible that says that works nullify grace. Such a teaching is false and
unBiblical.

Glenn - You just are not making sense to me. Everytime Michael says we
are not justified by works you agree but then go off on this perfection thing. I have rejected it because of the discussion on TT. I just sent you a verse that teaches works nullify grace when it comes to salvation. Furthermore, I don't believe for a second you can work to even continue in salvation.

Glenn wrote:
Works and salvation are not the same.

I agree.

Glenn wrote:
If one is depending upon his perfection of works
for salvation then that nullifies grace.

I agree. As I said before, trusting in works nullifies grace, but works
themselves are a fruit of faith and do not nullify grace.

Glenn - Agreed.

Glenn wrote:
The verses you are using you are misusing.

David Miller wrote:
No, I am not misusing them. Read the whole
epistle of 1 John and believe it.

Glenn wrote:
1 John is about gnosticism, if I understand it.

I don't believe that, but even if the gnostics did appear prior to the
second century, what is your statement supposed to mean? Does that mean we
don't need to read it? Does that mean it does not apply to us today? Does
that mean the teachings are tainted or not part of God's Word? Why would
you react to my urging you to read 1 John and believe it with the statement
of, "1 John is about gnosticism"?

Glenn wrote:
Agreed, we OUGHT to but I have never met a person
on TT or in person who does so perfectly. NEVER.

But you would never know if you had if you yourself have sin in your life.
What criteria do you use to judge such matters, whether or not they do what
you would do in certain situations?

Glenn - Criteria? I have said over and over, The criteria of Jesus the Christ. None meet it.

I do not judge whether others are perfect, so I could never make the
statement, "I have never met such a person." Neither do I judge myself, so
I could never say, "I am perfect." What I do know is what God says about
the matter, and he says that some men are perfect. I believe God and the
Bible on this matter over what you say. No offense intended, but that is
what you say to the Mormons, so I think you can understand it when I say it
to you about this subject.

Glenn wrote:
And we DO live perfectly from time to time,

I'm glad to see you recognize that! This is a great foundation, because
many Christians say they sin in thought and deed many times every day.

Glenn wrote:
but not perfectly ALL the time. I have yet
to meet a person who never sinned after
he was saved.

Go by what God says in the Bible rather than your lack of experience in
meeting a perfect person.

Glenn - God says we do not continue in sin. I do NOT see the Bible teaching we do not sin ever.

David Miller wrote:
What verses in the Bible do you use to support
your teaching that nobody is perfect like Jesus is
perfect?

Glenn wrote:
I gave many verses in the true/false test.

You gave verses, but not one of them said that God does not consider anyone
perfect. Job 1:1 reveals that God considered Job perfect.

Glenn - My point exactly. Job was not perfect like Jesus Christ was perfect.

Glenn wrote:
Now the reason I say, no one is without sin because sin
is much more than not stealing, cheating, etc., to sin.

I agree that sin is much more than that. Sin is whenever you do not walk in
love.

Sin is:
Transgression 1 John 3:4
Unrighteousness 1 John 5:17
Omission of known duty James 4:17
What is not of faith Rom. 6:23
Thought of foolishness Prov. 24:9

Right. I agree.

Glenn wrote:
Again, David no lives in perfect peace, perfect love,
perfect faith. That is perfection. That does not exist
except in Jesus Christ.

Now you are using the term differently than how I use the term perfect. As
I said before, the Bible has two uses of the word perfect. One sense is in
the way of being complete with no room to grow. I would agree
wholeheartedly that nobody on earth is perfect in this sense. Neither was
Jesus when he was

Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test


Glenn wrote:
 You agree below but deny here.

Glenn, the word nullify means to have the effect of cancelling something
out.  When you say that works nullify grace, then you are saying that when a
person does good works, he nullifies grace in his life.  That is a
preposterous notion.  Maybe you have something else in mind when you say
that works nullify grace?


David Miller wrote:
 You gave verses, but not one of them said that
 God does not consider anyone perfect.
 Job 1:1 reveals that God considered Job perfect.

Glenn wrote:
 My point exactly.  Job was not perfect like Jesus
 Christ was perfect.

Glenn, Job 1:1 says Job was perfect, and I made that point above.  Now you
say that this is your point exactly, but you say that Job was not perfect.
Did you mistype something?

Glenn wrote:
 I don't think you are changing the meaning of the
 word to fit your doctrine.

I don't know if you are making typo's, or changing your perspective.  Before
you said that I changed the meaning of the word perfection from how the
Bible used the term.  Now you say that I'm not doing that.

David Miller wrote:
 John Wesley, who founded Methodism, taught
 Christian Perfection.  My belief about Christian
 perfection is very similar to his.  Charles Finney
 of the Presbyterians also taught it.

Glenn wrote:
 OK, how about sending me a BRIEF one page
 outline of this doctrine in summary?

No time right now, sorry, but look online at the following url:
http://gbgm-umc.org/UMhistory/Wesley/perfect.html

This is John Wesley's book on Christian perfection.  Maybe it can get you
started in tracking with me on this subject.

Glenn wrote:
 David - When I see you, I see a man of God.
 I see a man of integrity.  I see a man of sincerity.
 I see a man of righteousness.  When I see you,
 I do not see a perfect person.

Thanks for the kind words, Glenn, but you really should not even be
considering whether or not I am a perfect person.  You should be considering
whether or not the Word of God gives us the promise that we can live like
Jesus Christ right now on this earth.  When you say that nobody on earth can
live perfect like Jesus Christ, that is a slap in the face of God to all his
promises in the Holy Scriptures that teach us that we must be holy.  Jesus
died for us on the cross so that we can receive his Spirit and life within
us.  He is a living, dynamic force promised to all who believe upon him,
that we might do his good works and glorify God by the works that he
produces within us.  When a person thinks Jesus is only a ticket to heaven
and nothing more, he is slapping Jesus in the face as he is suffering there
on the cross.  That's how I take it.  Jesus came not only to save lives, but
to transform lives into his image.  Let no man say that it is impossible or
cannot be done.  It might look impossible, it is indeed an incredible and
amazing suggestion that men can be like Jesus Christ, but this is what Jesus
taught.  If we believe in Jesus Christ, we will receive eternal life within
us and we can walk in the power of the Holy Ghost.  Let us believe Jesus and
not doubt.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Works nullify grace in salvation.Rom. 4:4-5; 
  Rom. 11:6. 
 
 
Glenn - You agree below but deny here. 
 
  You are misusing these verses. Neither of these verses say that works 
  nullify grace. 
  

 
  Glenn wrote: 
   The verses you are using you are misusing. 

 
   Agreed, we OUGHT to but I have never met a person 
   on TT or in person who does so perfectly. NEVER. 

Michael D: Glenn, does not the fact that the scripture say that we ought to tell us that we cannot excuse ourselves from the obligation, in spite of who has or has not succeeded? this again asks the question: will God give us an obligation that He has not equipped us to fulfil? Does God frustrate His children? If this were the case, we would still be under the law. The law was sent to frustrate us, but not grace. Grace was sent to fulfil us.
  
 
Glenn - God says we do not continue in sin. I do NOT see the Bible teaching we do not sin ever. 
Michael D: Glenn, here is that other verse from Peter: I PETER 4:1-2. Peter says that those who suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin... I think it should address the statement above.

  David Miller wrote: 
   What verses in the Bible do you use to support 
   your teaching that nobody is perfect like Jesus is 
   perfect? 
  

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Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  The reason you don't believe in holiness is not because of me but because 
  the sinning doctrine of men makes you feel comfortable and a teaching about 
  good works and holiness makes you uncomfortable because it means you have 
  some room to grow some more. 
Michael D: David, this is quite a direct attack on a brother's motives you make here. Are you sure that this is how you want to represent your assessment? Are you over the ad hominem line here? 
 
Glenn - 
Yes, I have room to grow a lot. I am not perfect. Again, you make my case. 
 
Yes, David, you are the reason I don't see the perfection doctrine. I do see 
holiness in you but not perfectly. You are making me say this. I have tried 
to not say this as I know it will hurt you because of your sincerity. But I 
have seen many times on TT imperfection in you. Yes, indeed. 

Michael D: BR. Glenn, I would like to suggest that yoususpend your sentiments re David's perfection doctrine for the discussion, and really look at what the scriptures are saying and make a determination from them. I think it's important to evaluate what the Word is saying about sin and the believer. 
Again, the key is will God ask us to do something that He does not equip us for? Do you think He will?
  Peace be with you. 
  David Miller. 
  
 
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Re: [TruthTalk] Is the Bible Complete?--Part 1




From: "Michael Douglas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Michael D: Dave H. Can you offer an LDS perspective on the question I asked below. Blainer hasn't yet, though I would welcome an answer from him, too. 




 
Laura wrote: 
so God threw him out and 1/3 of theothers followed him or something like that. I'd have to look up my notes from acourse I took a number of years ago, but that is what I remember about it. 
  Laura 
Blainer) I think you remember correctly--that is the way I remember it. 
Satan waged a war of ideas and values, and many followed after him. 
Those who were deceived by him were cast out of heaven. The other 2/3 
sooner or later came to earth, took upon themselves mortal bodies. 
 

Michael D: Blainer, are there angels now, then? If so can you say where did they come from?Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month.  Try MSN! Click Here ---BeginMessage---



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is the Bible Complete?--Part 1 
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:35:48 -0600 
 
 

 
Laura wrote: 
so God threw him out and 1/3 of the 
  others 
  followed him or something like that. I'd have to look up my notes 
  from a 
  course I took a number of years ago, but that is what I remember 
  about it. 
  Laura 
Blainer) I think you remember correctly--that is the way I remember it. 
Satan waged a war of ideas and values, and many followed after him. 
Those who were deceived by him were cast out of heaven. The other 2/3 
sooner or later came to earth, took upon themselves mortal bodies. 
 

Michael D: Blainer, are there angels now, then? If so can you say where did they come from?Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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---End Message---

Re: [TruthTalk] Is the Bible Complete?--Part 1




From: "Michael Douglas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Michael D: Dave H: would you care to give ma an answer on this one, below? I would really like to know how you all understand this.
Michael D: Hey Blainer or Dave H, I an curious to know: as an angel, was Jesus an arch angel or a lesser one? Since Lucifer was the 'anointed cherub', was Jesus below him or above him? 




 
Blainer) I have never heard anything about Satan and Jesus being 
half-brothers. 
 What I have heard about is that we are all spirit brothers and sisters, 
offspring of God. If Satan is a spirit, he must therefore logically be a 
spirit offspring of the Father of all spirits, and is not only Jesus' 
spirit-brother, but YOURS as well. Too bad Lucifer (his spirit name) 
envied God's throne, rebelled against God, and tried to overthrow him, 
huh? He might have ended up being a prophet in the Old testament, or 
even better, a Prophet/President of the LDS Church, (:) assuming of 
course he would have taken on a body of flesh and blood. 
 But he was denied the privilege of tabernacling in the flesh, because 
he made war in heaven, and actually overcame one-third of the hosts of 
heaven. The other two-thirds are you and I and all others who were 
allowed to take on mortal bodies. See Isaiah 14:12-17 
"How art thou fallen from HEAVEN, O Lucifer, son of the morning? . . . 
" etc. Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. Click Here ---BeginMessage---

Michael D: Hey Blainer or Dave H, I an curious to know: as an angel, was Jesus an arch angel or a lesser one? Since Lucifer wasthe 'anointed cherub', was Jesus below him or above him?

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

 
Blainer) I have never heard anything about Satan and Jesus being 
half-brothers. 
 What I have heard about is that we are all spirit brothers and sisters, 
offspring of God. If Satan is a spirit, he must therefore logically be a 
spirit offspring of the Father of all spirits, and is not only Jesus' 
spirit-brother, but YOURS as well. Too bad Lucifer (his spirit name) 
envied God's throne, rebelled against God, and tried to overthrow him, 
huh? He might have ended up being a prophet in the Old testament, or 
even better, a Prophet/President of the LDS Church, (:) assuming of 
course he would have taken on a body of flesh and blood. 
 But he was denied the privilege of tabernacling in the flesh, because 
he made war in heaven, and actually overcame one-third of the hosts of 
heaven. The other two-thirds are you and I and all others who were 
allowed to take on mortal bodies. See Isaiah 14:12-17 
"How art thou fallen from HEAVEN, O Lucifer, son of the morning? . . . 
" etc. 
 

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Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test

2002-10-16 Thread ttxpress






On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:31:29 + "Michael Douglas" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
..the key is will God ask us to do something that 
He does not equip us for? Do you think He 
will?

MD, (but) God is not the only agent at work in 
this life (as we know it now)--so is Satan

i.e.,did God equip us for this (which 
DavidM is reluctant to deal with):


(e.g.) Is 64:6 NIV
All of us have become like one who is 
unclean, and all our righteous acts 
are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up 
like a leaf, and like the wind our 
sins sweep us away 
(?)

ftr,whileour Satanic ways 
and'sinful equipment' remain in tact (now)--and there's no historical 
evidence it is not (e.g., Christians fought and killed people, inc other 
Christiansin, e.g., WW2)--followers of JC, unlike JC himself, are 
not comprised of only one (Spiritual) nature, but of both carnal and Spiritual 
natures; (we) are not merely ruled/influenced by the Holy Spirit alone, but (by 
habit) by the devil as well as (by learning) bythe 
Spirit

therefore, perfection per 
selies, not within this life as we know it, but beyond it; in Christ, 
the kingdom of God is present already, however, it is not yet fulfilled or 
perfect/ed (as it/JCs followerswill be someday) g

Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test


Glenn wrote:
 YOU are the reason I don't believe in perfection.
 You seem to hit the ceiling over this pet doctrine.

David Miller wrote:
 I haven't hit any ceiling.  I'm just pushing you a little
 further than I have in the past.

 The reason you don't believe in holiness is not because
 of me but because the sinning doctrine of men makes
 you feel comfortable and a teaching about good works
 and holiness makes you uncomfortable because it means
 you have some room to grow some more.

Michael D. wrote:
 David, this is quite a direct attack on a brother's motives
 you make here. Are you sure that this is how you want
 to represent your assessment? Are you over the ad
 hominem line here?

I admit it appears dangerously close to an ad hominem argument, but
considering all the other Scriptures and logical points I have made
associated with it, I do not consider it over the line.  Glenn made the
statment, YOU emphasis by Glenn are the reason I don't believe...  That
is a pretty personal statement.  I responded, not with attack on his
character, but on what I believe are the real underlying motivations for his
embracing the 'Christians-will-continue-to-sin' doctrine.  For Glenn to
suggest that I am the reason he does not believe is ludicrous, because that
means if he had never met me, then he would believe in Christian perfection.
Surely it is quite clear that Glenn is not being honest with himself or with
us.  So what is the reason that Glenn does not believe?  I think it is
because it makes him feel comfortable.  People like comfort and teachings
that tickle their ears and give them comfort.

Unfortunately, it is a sad fact that most men love sin, so they resist the
good news of the gospel that they can become a son of God and never sin
again.  Most prefer a message that they can become a son of God and still
sin a little bit, from time to time, as long as they don't make it a habit.
That's what I call comfortable religion, because such men will never
experience the kind of passion Jesus experienced at the mount of Olives when
he sweat drops of blood in resisting the temptation that had come upon him.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test


Gary wrote:
 ... did God equip us for this (which DavidM
 is reluctant to deal with):

 (e.g.) Is 64:6 NIV
 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
 and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
 we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind
 our sins sweep us away  (?)

Why would you think that I am reluctant to deal with this?  I welcome the
opportunity.  All men have sinned, and their own righteousness is like
filthy rags.  My comments concern that righteous acts of Jesus that work
through us when we place our faith in Christ.  Are these righteous acts of
Christ filthy rags?  Of course not.

So you bring up a passage of Scripture talking about unregenerated man to
counter the good news of the gospel that we can be set free of sin?  That is
not rightly dividing the Word of God.

Gary wrote:
 ftr, while our Satanic ways and 'sinful equipment'
 remain in tact (now)--

While our 'sinful equipment' might remain in tact, it is rendered powerless
by the Spirit of Jesus Christ.  Therefore, our Satanic ways do not remain in
tact.  If a person continues to walk in Satanic ways, then he is a child of
Satan.  Anyone who sins is a child of Satan.

Gary wrote:
 and there's no historical evidence it is not

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the
Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and
death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,
God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin,
condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be
fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  (Rom
8:1-4)

And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have
lived in all good conscience before God unto this day.  (Acts 23:1)

Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have
defrauded no man.  (2 Cor. 7:2)

I would say that Paul is evidence that his Satanic ways were discarded.

Gary wrote:
 (e.g., Christians fought and killed people, inc other Christians
 in, e.g.,  WW2)--followers of JC, unlike JC himself, are not
 comprised of only one (Spiritual) nature, but of both carnal
 and Spiritual natures;

Jesus Christ also had a carnal nature, or you deny the Scriptures which
clearly proclaim that Christ was made flesh.  Any spirit which says that
Christ did not become flesh is of the AntiChrist.  Jesus was fully human
flesh.

Gary wrote:
 (we) are not merely ruled/influenced by the Holy
 Spirit alone, but (by habit) by the devil as well as
 (by learning) by the Spirit

You speak of unregenerated men here, whose eye is not single.  When men
become religious by law and intellect, they are as you describe, but when
men become born again and filled with the Spirit, then the Spirit of life in
Christ Jesus makes them free from the power of sin.

Gary wrote:
 therefore, perfection per se lies, not within this life
 as we know it, but beyond it; in Christ, the kingdom
 of God is present already, however, it is not yet fulfilled
 or perfect/ed (as it/JCs followers will be someday)

In other words, you teach that the Kingdom of God is yet to come, and that
we must look for Christ to come in order to enter into the promises of the
Kingdom of God.  This is no different than what the Jews who do not know
Christ teach today.  Those who do not know Christ must look for his coming
before they can experience the promises of the Kingdom.

The teaching of Jesus Christ is that the Kingdom of God has come.  The time
has been fulfilled.  The kingdom is now, not something to be fulfilled some
day.

You say that the Kingdom of God is present already, but you deny it if you
say that it is not yet fulfilled.  Why would you say this?  I think perhaps
you say this because you know the Bible teaches it, but because you can't
believe it, you say that it is not yet fulfilled.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test

Glenn wrote:
YOU are the reason I don't believe in perfection.
You seem to hit the ceiling over this pet doctrine.

David Miller wrote:
I haven't hit any ceiling. I'm just pushing you a little
further than I have in the past.

The reason you don't believe in holiness is not because
of me but because the sinning doctrine of men makes
you feel comfortable and a teaching about good works
and holiness makes you uncomfortable because it means
you have some room to grow some more.

Michael D. wrote:
David, this is quite a direct attack on a brother's motives
you make here. Are you sure that this is how you want
to represent your assessment? Are you over the ad
hominem line here?

I admit it appears dangerously close to an ad hominem argument, but
considering all the other Scriptures and logical points I have made
associated with it, I do not consider it over the line. Glenn made the
statment, "YOU emphasis by Glenn are the reason I don't believe..." That
is a pretty personal statement. I responded, not with attack on his
character, but on what I believe are the real underlying motivations for his
embracing the 'Christians-will-continue-to-sin' doctrine. For Glenn to
suggest that I am the reason he does not believe is ludicrous, because that
means if he had never met me, then he would believe in Christian perfection.
Surely it is quite clear that Glenn is not being honest with himself or with
us. So what is the reason that Glenn does not believe? I think it is
because it makes him feel comfortable. People like comfort and teachings
that tickle their ears and give them comfort.

Glenn - I said, that you are the reason I have rejected the perfection doctrine. It is up to you to reject or accept what I said. I call it like I see it.

Again, the above is proof to me you are not perfect. First of all, I am not offended. Second, it is sin to judge my motives. You are doing this which means you are not perfect. You can judge sin, but you cannot look into my heart and judge my motives.

Unfortunately, it is a sad fact that most men love sin, so they resist the
good news of the gospel that they can become a son of God and never sin
again. Most prefer a message that they can become a son of God and still
sin a little bit, from time to time, as long as they don't make it a habit.
That's what I call comfortable religion, because such men will never
experience the kind of passion Jesus experienced at the mount of Olives when
he sweat drops of blood in resisting the temptation that had come upon him.

Glenn - Again, I call it as I see it. You can receive or reject my calls. It up to you. I see you are blinded here because you imply that anyone who doesn't believe in the perfection doctrine is soft on sin. THE DOTS DO NOT CONNECT HERE. YOU HAVE CUT THE CAKE TOO THIN. This is not true.

PS. For Michael, don't worry about me, I have a tough skin. :-) I might be "arguing" with David, but it is between 2 Christians brothers, at least from my view. In fact, when he comes out like he does, it just shows his imperfection. :-)

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test


Glenn wrote:
 Second, it is sin to judge my motives.  You
 are doing this which means you are not perfect.

I'm not judging your motives; I'm revealing them.  :-)

Was Jesus sinning when he revealed the motives of men?  What passage of
Scripture do you base your belief upon that tells you that men cannot know
the motives of other men?  What passage of Scripture do you base your belief
upon that tells you that a person is sinning when they reveal the motives of
other men?

Consider:

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged
sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the
joints and marrow, and IS A DISCERNER OF THE THOUGHTS AND INTENTS OF THE
HEART. (Heb 4:12)

But HE THAT IS SPIRITUAL JUDGETH ALL THINGS, yet he himself is judged of no
man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But
we have the mind of Christ. (1Co 2:15-16)

Glenn wrote:
 You can judge sin, but you cannot look into
 my heart and judge my motives.

But God can, and God can reveal it to whomever he chooses.  Do you deny that
the Christian Perfection doctrine makes you uncomfortable?  You've claimed
that I sinned by revealing this about you, but you have not denied what I
have said.  Why is that?  Is it because what I said is true?  If it is true,
have I sinned?

Clearly it is dangerous ground to declare the motives of another person, but
it can only be sin when that declaration is false.

David Miller wrote:
 Most prefer a message that they can become a son
 of God and still sin a little bit, from time to time, as
 long as they don't make it a habit.  That's what I call
 comfortable religion, because such men will never
 experience the kind of passion Jesus experienced
 at the mount of Olives when he sweat drops of blood
 in resisting the temptation that had come upon him.

Glenn wrote:
 I see you are blinded here because you imply that
 anyone who doesn't believe in the perfection doctrine
 is soft on sin.  THE DOTS DO NOT CONNECT
 HERE.  ... This is not true.

I don't like the term, soft on sin.  It implies that the way to deal with
sin is to be hard on sin.  That is not my point at all.  I simply believe
what the Scriptures teach, that those born of God do not sin.

Have you resisted against sin yet, to the sweating of blood?

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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[TruthTalk] John 5:39 describes Mormons exactly