> Works nullify grace in salvation.Rom. 4:4-5;
> Rom. 11:6.
Glenn - You agree below but deny here.
You are misusing these verses. Neither of these verses say that works
nullify grace.
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the
ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Rom 4:4-5)
This passage clearly says that a man is justified without works, by faith.
That is not the same thing as saying that works nullify grace.
"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the
election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise
grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace:
otherwise work is no more work." (Rom 11:5-6)
This passage says that election is not of works, but of grace. It does not
say that works nullify grace. The truth is that there is no passage in the
Bible that says that works nullify grace. Such a teaching is false and
unBiblical.
Glenn - You just are not making sense to me. Everytime Michael says we
are not justified by works you agree but then go off on this perfection thing. I have rejected it because of the discussion on TT. I just sent you a verse that teaches works nullify grace when it comes to salvation. Furthermore, I don't believe for a second you can work to even continue in salvation.
Glenn wrote:
> Works and salvation are not the same.
I agree.
Glenn wrote:
> If one is depending upon his perfection of works
> for salvation then that nullifies grace.
I agree. As I said before, trusting in works nullifies grace, but works
themselves are a fruit of faith and do not nullify grace.
Glenn - Agreed.
Glenn wrote:
> The verses you are using you are misusing.
David Miller wrote:
> No, I am not misusing them. Read the whole
> epistle of 1 John and believe it.
Glenn wrote:
> 1 John is about gnosticism, if I understand it.
I don't believe that, but even if the gnostics did appear prior to the
second century, what is your statement supposed to mean? Does that mean we
don't need to read it? Does that mean it does not apply to us today? Does
that mean the teachings are tainted or not part of God's Word? Why would
you react to my urging you to read 1 John and believe it with the statement
of, "1 John is about gnosticism"?
Glenn wrote:
> Agreed, we OUGHT to but I have never met a person
> on TT or in person who does so perfectly. NEVER.
But you would never know if you had if you yourself have sin in your life.
What criteria do you use to judge such matters, whether or not they do what
you would do in certain situations?
Glenn - Criteria? I have said over and over, The criteria of Jesus the Christ. None meet it.
I do not judge whether others are perfect, so I could never make the
statement, "I have never met such a person." Neither do I judge myself, so
I could never say, "I am perfect." What I do know is what God says about
the matter, and he says that some men are perfect. I believe God and the
Bible on this matter over what you say. No offense intended, but that is
what you say to the Mormons, so I think you can understand it when I say it
to you about this subject.
Glenn wrote:
> And we DO live perfectly from time to time,
I'm glad to see you recognize that! This is a great foundation, because
many Christians say they sin in thought and deed many times every day.
Glenn wrote:
> but not perfectly ALL the time. I have yet
> to meet a person who never sinned after
> he was saved.
Go by what God says in the Bible rather than your lack of experience in
meeting a perfect person.
Glenn - God says we do not continue in sin. I do NOT see the Bible teaching we do not sin ever.
David Miller wrote:
> What verses in the Bible do you use to support
> your teaching that nobody is perfect like Jesus is
> perfect?
Glenn wrote:
> I gave many verses in the true/false test.
You gave verses, but not one of them said that God does not consider anyone
perfect. Job 1:1 reveals that God considered Job perfect.
Glenn - My point exactly. Job was not perfect like Jesus Christ was perfect.
Glenn wrote:
> Now the reason I say, no one is without sin because sin
> is much more than not stealing, cheating, etc., to sin.
I agree that sin is much more than that. Sin is whenever you do not walk in
love.
Sin is:
Transgression 1 John 3:4
Unrighteousness 1 John 5:17
Omission of known duty James 4:17
What is not of faith Rom. 6:23
Thought of foolishness Prov. 24:9
Right. I agree.
Glenn wrote:
> Again, David no lives in perfect peace, perfect love,
> perfect faith. That is perfection. That does not exist
> except in Jesus Christ.
Now you are using the term differently than how I use the term perfect. As
I said before, the Bible has two uses of the word perfect. One sense is in
the way of being complete with no room to grow. I would agree
wholeheartedly that nobody on earth is perfect in this sense. Neither was
Jesus when he was in the flesh, perfect in this sense. However, another use
of the term is to indicate that someone is walking holy and without sin, and
doing all that God expects of him for his level of maturity. That is the
sense in which I say that Christians can be perfect.
Glenn - My point again. I am using the word perfect from the way you are using the word. I don't think you are changing the meaning of the word to fit your doctrine.
Glenn wrote:
> Question: What denomination teaches this
> "I am perfect" doctrine? Or what group of
> Christians teach this or used to teach this?
John Wesley, who founded Methodism, taught Christian Perfection. My belief
about Christian perfetion is very similar to his. Charles Finney of the
Presbyterians also taught it.
Glenn - OK, how about sending me a BRIEF one page outline of this doctrine in summary?
Glenn wrote:
> Are you perfect?
This question is a temptation and snare to those who walk in perfection. I
can only answer as Job answered: "If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall
condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse." (Job
9:20)
If I were to say that I was perfect, I would immediately fall from that
perfection and make the confession false. It is contrary to the doctrine of
Christ for us not to walk humbly. The one who can judge if I walk in
Christian perfection is God, and I leave all such judgment to him. All I
know, is that the Bible teaches us to walk pure and holy, without sin, and I
conduct myself to have a clear conscience before God and men in all matters.
I am always open to correction, and I realize that I can slip into error,
except by the grace of God I am kept from it. I am quick to hear my
brothers and sisters if they have correction for me, but the Word of God is
the ultimate arbitrator of all matters. I do not consider myself to have
arrived, but rather I press forward continually, perfecting holiness in the
sight of God, with hope for that ultimate perfection that is found in the
resurrection.
David - When I see you, I see a man of God. I see a man of integrity. I see a man of sincerity. I see a man of righteousness. When I see you, I do not see a perfect person.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
