date:20050604

Thinking Out Loud (again). Some of these thoughts and wording comes from From Cells to Souls -- a section in that book written by Alan Torrance. The following is a combination of AT?s thinking and my understanding of the importance of his presentations.

In search of a truly heuristic consequence, many have involved themselves in the recovery of the gospel story as realized in the triune God and the Sonship of Christ.
?Christians acknowledge that the complexity of the world is irreducible to anything other than the simplest explanation of all --- the God who has created persons in his image for personal communion with himself, with each other and, indeed, with all the other sentient beings which contribute o to the richness of the world we know. ? (p222). And there you have it -- ?the simplest explanation of all,? that mankind has been created in His very image. If there is another explanation for that image, certainly it must in
clude the idea of ?community.?

God loves the Son, the Son loves the Father and the Holy Spirit is the _expression_ of each in this world and in the lives of those who are a part of His creation after The Reconciliation (Col 1:17ff).

That being true, the personal behavior of man is incomplete until expressed in the company of others (p210). Man was created for the expressed purpose of the expansion of community (ye shall be fruitful and multiply) ?.. God?s covenant with Abraham had everything to do with the blessing of an increasing community of persons. Israel was God manifest in national function. His Christ was all about the reconciliation of all things <
/SPAN>-- a tearing down of the barriers erected in the garden, allowing the bridging of the divide created by man?s decision to chart his own course, to go his own way, to misappropriate the revealed word of the day [?ye shall not surely die ] His church is His bride, bearing the offspring of all that reveals His power and presence -- a community of believers that live to reveal God to a lost and confused world. He is the Father, we are his adoptive children. Community is written on every page and thought of God?s dealings with man. ?The relational dimens
ion of human nature? is at the centre of our very being. It is such because and only because we have been created in that image and for that purpose. Community is not only the image of creative endeavor, it is the very purpose for our existence. Our identity as persons, our true identity is manifest in freedom (the perfect law of liberty), in presence (ye who are spiritual help those who are weak; pour yourselves out for the hunger, give yourselves to the afflicted and see your light shine as the noonday sun), in love (the whole law is fulfilled in this, love God and love your neighbor as you love yourself), and in communion (the fellowship of the saints and the indwelling of God, Himself, in our lives).

The grand truth of the Christian faith is our participation in His personal existence as opposed to His nature ?. For it God at work in us to will and accomplish. If we understand that intrinsic to His existence is this thing we call community, we, then, understand just how important it is to be a beneficial part of the larger community. John says it this wise: No one has seen God at anytime but if we love one another, God abides in us and His love is perfected in us ???. He has given us His Spirit.
Perhaps this is where the "kingdom" comes into play. If we understand that the kingdom of God is the sovereign rule and authority of God, then Christ?s words ?the kingdom is within,? and ?my kingdom is not of this world? can have real and precise meaning. If ?kingdom? in the New Covenant age is the reality and rule of God, Himself, on any level given vision, whether ?thy kingdom come,? ?you are near to the kingdom,
? ?my father has granted me kingdom [not ?a? kingdom], the kingdom is not eating and drinking,? ?heirs of the kingdom of promise,? then, perhaps we are on our way to understanding ?kingdom rule.?

Kingdom is tied irrevocably to the communion of God in man;that is what I have come to believe. When we speak of sovereign rule and authority, we do the idea great injustice if we separate that rule fromits inward throne --- the heart and soul of man. Kingdom rule, at whatever level, always includes His ?subjects? That is the illusion -- kingdom = a king and His people. And that is His kingdom. His influence in the people of God.<
SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> Paul says it this way: The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Reject the notion of community and you cannot understand the Godhead, the fellowship of the saints, the purpose of creation, the nature of God, the effect of the cross, the vitality and importance of the church, the indwelling spirit and kingdom rule. The heuristic circumstance that best pictures all these things is the consideration of community as the image of God. All of the above

Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] NIV Bible Quiz


Clearly so.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 21:51:16 -0600Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] NIV Bible Quiz




myth (false prophetsspeak ofJC in the past tense formanipulative personal reasons or asdoes the author, below)

On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 20:09:38 -0400 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:..Jesus also respected Scripture the way that we do.

Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity


And absolutely no one disagrees with this -- but if this means that it is not included, that disciple hasmissed an aspect of worship that is of God's design. 

Jd-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 20:47:15 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Obesity






AND worship is not always done in the throes of ecstasy. Izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Friday, June 03, 2005 7:10 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity

From here, his point seems to be that you do not need a community to worship, or a building, or a pastor/priest. Job, by the way, is just one of many examples of this.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 



And your point -- that we must shave our heads, worship flat on the groundwhile tearing our clothing? ??



JD
-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:48:49 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity



JOB And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them: And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daugh
ters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And, behold, there came a grea t wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 



Good comments. My wife and I do not look to songs for didache -- rather we score high a service that allows us to praise God and give Him His righteous due. Perhaps reflective of how we approach the Faith in total. 



JD
-Original Message-From: Christine Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:47:35 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity

 It plays a very important part in
 the discipline of spiritual growth.

Amen. I realized recently that the worship songs I
sing have taught me a sort of spiritual jealousy,
where I wanted to mean those songs from my heart when
I sang them. This one song had a line "You can offer
her anything her affections are all for Him only,"
that showed me how I should desire my God. Though I
wouldn't rate it over preaching and teaching, as
quoted in Lance's post, I do love worship!

Blessings!

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 
 
 Worship shapes our spirituality
 "...our spirituality is usually shaped more by the
 experience of communal worship than it is by
 preaching and teachingthe way we think about God
 and relate to God is influenced enormously by our
 experience of God in communal worship..Songs are
 especially formative. We are far more likely to find
 ourselves humming something we sang in church when
 we go home than we are to find ourselves meditating
 on a phrase in the sermon..(not one of yours, of
 course)..Christian philosopher and scientist Michael
 Polanyi spoke of knowledge that we simply absorb by
 a kind of 'osmosis' without even realizing that we
 have done so. This is what he refers to as 'tacit
 knowledge' Most Christians simply imbibe a theology
 through the way that they worship.
 .theology springs from right worship but theology
 also, in turn, guides and ensures right
 worship.There is a circular relationship between the
 two as healthy worship and theology support each
 otherhow theology can guide the kind of worship
 that in turn shapes people spirituality.
 
 
 How very true, for my wife and I, at least. Our
 "church of choice" is Valley Christian Center in
 Fresno. It is a 2000 member congregation with,
 perhaps, the best comtemporary worship service in
 the area. What Polanyi speaks of in the above
 quote is, perhaps, the same as that referenced by
 Paul in Eph. 5:18-20. There, spirit filling is an
 experience received on any occasion the community of
 saints gather togather in the sharing of song and
 spiritual hymns. It plays a very important part in
 the discipline of spiritual growth. Too much
 attention to the negatives expressed by some saints

Re: [TruthTalk] Exerpts


If the shoe fits, Judy. if the shoe fits. I am quite sure you ahve used the word 'liberal" on this forum. But that is not important, is it? -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 23:36:43 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Exerpts



Don't believe I've ever used the word "liberal" on TT JD. I am into truth vs error rather than liberal vs
whatever... and what's this with the angst? Where did that come from? jt

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 18:58:42 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



Have you read Eph 5:18-20. Think "imbibe." And why would you waste everyone's time rejecting such an observation. You do not fight liberalism -- you guys just fight against anything you didn't make up. Nearly everything I believe is accepted by our friends as BSF while you pretend that youare onto something really big in fight'en those dirty ol' liberals. You got Deegan all alone up there in the North, wishing that he had paid more attention in his English comprehension class -- Izzy there in St Louis pretending that she really understands what is going on and David pretending that he is the one who cast's the larger shadow (with the Lord's help, of course.) 

Why not drop all this ankst and get on with the discussion. I will if you will. It is up to you all. Be our example and we (I am sure) will follow suit. 

JDFrom: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]





If one goes around imbibing spiritual atmospheres where is spiritual discernment? The animal kingdom are
the ones who are led by instinct. Human beings need to learn and God makes surewe are taught to know
the voice of the Shepherd. jt

On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:12:14 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Are we ALL as predictable as you, Judy? Given this I'm not sure why you don't just have two 'repeater' words: 'Amen' for David (by extension, Christine), Izzie Kevin. 'Nein' for all of the rest of us. The time you could save, Judy!

From: Judy Taylor 

On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:48:10 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Worship shapes our spirituality
"...our spirituality is usually shaped more by the experience of communal worship than it is by preaching and teachingthe way we think about God and relate to God is influenced enormously by our experience of God in communal worship..Songs are especially formative. We are far more likely to find ourselves humming something we sang in church when we go home than we are to find ourselves meditating on a phrase in the sermon..(not one of yours, of course)..

jt: I would disagree with the above statement Lance - Is it yours? Actually spirituality shapes worship rather than vice-versa because true worship depends upon a correct heart attitude and we do not enter God's presence just any old way - We must properly prepare ourselves to worship.. And God does not accept all of it. He spoke through the prophet Amos and told the Israel of that day that their feasts and worship times literally made him want to vomit ... He also spoke through the prophet Isaiah about a crowd who were pretty pleased with themselves and thesedescended into sheol rejoicing.

Christian philosopher and scientist Michael Polanyi spoke of knowledge that we simply absorb by a kind of 'osmosis' without even realizing that we have done so. This is what he refers to as 'tacit knowledge'Most Christians simply imbibe a theology through the way that they worship.

jt: This is not the way anyone is to learn let alone Christians. This is how the animals perform (by instinct). Humans must be taught, we have been given a mind so that we can think and God will reveal Himself to whomsoever He will. The only ones who imbibe should be drunks.

.theology springs from right worship but theology also, in turn, guides and ensures right worship.There is a circular relationship between the two as healthy worship and theology support each otherhow theology can guide the kind of worship that in turn shapes people spirituality.

jt: Just like your little trinitarian dance, round and round and round we go...

Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity

Oh, I can heartedly agree. We have made church a spectator sport. But the larger assemblies are not all bad.

Jd-Original Message-From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 21:23:01 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

tERRY -- YOU ARE NO MORE p.o.ED WITHT EH CHURCH TAHN i AM -- but you might rethink your comments in view of the following:

Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together -- encouraging one another to love and good works. Heb 10:25

.. breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of hear. acts 2:46

We are to share in the worship of song -- a group thing. Eph 5:18-20

Speaking the truth in love, we are to grow upin all aspects into Him the whole body (read:church) being fitted and held together for the building up of itself (the church) in love Eph 4:15,16.

I could go on, but you know these scriptures better than I. If for no other reason, "ye who are spiritual help those who are weak" can be a reason to attend. We (my wife and I ) have our times when we do not attend but we are always benefitted insome when we are there.

After all, "church" was God's big idea !!

JD==I am not down on church,John. We attend regularly. We just do it from house to house like the scriptures say some of the early believers did. We share a meal and afterward we play Bereans, sing songs, the whole works. You should try it. It sure beats staring at the back of the heads in the pew in front of you while one guy gives his spiel and everyone else tries to stay awake.

Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] NIV Bible Quiz




Myopia. Ask your husband about it. I've found a 
total lack of concern on TT, from DM to DH, for global issues. To make light of 
4M deaths is simply beyond my comprehension. Wait, actually it's not as you've 
all made jokes at any reference to events outside of either your neighborhoods 
or some 'sodomite' convention with an accompanying 'hollerin'' 
contest.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: June 03, 2005 21:19
  Subject: RE: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] NIV 
  Bible Quiz
  
  
  You dont make me 
  feel uncomfortable except for you, Lance. Youre really out there my 
  friend. And your concerns about the Congowhat are you and Canada doing 
  about it? Did you have a complaint with someone other than your beloved United 
  Nations? (Its a crooked JOKE!!!) Izzy
  
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Friday, June 03, 2005 1:25 
  PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] NIV 
  Bible Quiz
  
  
  It's truly uncomfortable is it 
  not? When (in print) you sound, often, like someone so ?yuck! Do be 
  faithful to one of your own, Iz. Joe looks down from 'the great 'hearing in 
  the sky.' He's on the lookout for 'commies' like homeland security is on the 
  lookout for terrorists. It's the head in the sand thingy, 
  Iz.
  
  
  
  You want serious? I'll give you 
  serious! Does anyone out there know the following: One thousand people die 
  every day in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and nearly half of these 
  deaths are accounted for by children under five years of age. These 
  deaths add daily to the cumulative total of 3.8 million fatalities since the 
  crisis began in August, 1998 to the end of April 2004. This makes the 
  DRC conflict worse than any other conflict since the end of World War II and 
  in terms of death toll exceeds other recent crises, including Bosnia 
  (estimated 250,000 dead), Rwanda (800,000), Kosovo (12,000),. and Darfur in 
  Sudan 
  (70,000)
  
  
  
  Despite this, the international 
  community has failed to take the necessary action to alleviate the 
  crisis. During 2004, only 42% of funding sought by the United Nations 
  for its activities had been raised by August, while contributions by the 
  United Sates Agency for International Assistance to DRC for 2004 have declined 
  by almost 25% when compared with 2003. "No other recent confllict has 
  claimed as many lives and mortality rates remain elevated at an alarming 
  level. In spite of these unambiguous facts, the international community 
  has not yet mobilized the necessary will or resources to effectively address 
  the crisis," according to the latest mortality study, a joint effort by the 
  New York based International Rescue Committee 
  (IRC) and Australia's Burnet 
  Institute.
  

- Original Message - 


From: ShieldsFamily 


To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 


Sent: June 
03, 2005 14:27

Subject: RE: 
[Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] NIV Bible Quiz


Oh, good 
grief---why is it that liberals always fall back on those old tried and true 
names to call other people? If it isnt Hitler its McCarthy. Get 
a new, but more creative insult please. 
Izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Friday, June 03, 2005 11:47 
AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] NIV 
Bible Quiz


So then Kevin, in Senator 
McCarthy like fashion you hurl out accusations sans proof in the hope that 
the accusation itself will serve you well enough! I'd have though as 
much.

Re: [TruthTalk] The Truth About the Congo

'THE' truth about the Congo is that you didn't even know it's location until
you just 'googled' it.

- Original Message - 
From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: June 03, 2005 21:36
Subject: [TruthTalk] The Truth About the Congo

 US is largest contributor to UN Peacekeeping missions.  UN Officials rape
 and abuse refugees in Congo:
 http://www.heritage.org/Research/InternationalOrganizations/hl868.cfm.

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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[TruthTalk] A public request to DaveH




You've outlined your reasons for being here on 
numerous occasions, Dave.You write well. You read well. You've undoubtedly 
learned much. Would you kindly consider the following:

1. Write a description of Mormonism, as if you were 
a non-Mormon, utilizing the information you've gleaned while being a participant 
on TT?

2. Write a description of Evangelicalism, from a 
Mormon persepctive, utilizing the information you've gleaned while being a 
participant on TT?

It need not be some multi-page, to-be-published, 
document. Just do what you've already demonstrated that you do 
well.

I. and every thoughtful participant on TT, 
understands that youdraw a distinction between believers  
non-believerswhich places 'us' in the NB 
category. 

I'm genuinely interested in this. Unless the 
moderator objects I'd really like to hear you on both of the above.

Lance

[TruthTalk] What is church?

*Note Subject Change
Old Subject:  Obesity
New Subject:  What is church?

John wrote:
 We (my wife and I ) have our times when we do not
 attend     but we are always benefitted insome when
 we are there.
 After all, church was God's big idea  !!

I don't think Terry is against church per se.  He simply views church as the 
community of believers, not as some event that people attend.

John brings up an important point here.  Church was God's big idea.  The 
point Terry is raising concerns exactly what was this idea of church.  Terry 
contends that what most people call church today is not God's idea.  I think 
Terry has an important point here that should not be glossed over.

When God had the idea of church for man, was it the idea of a building with 
a steeple where people would come together on Sunday, sing a few song, drop 
some money in the plate that is passed, listen to a short sermon, and then 
get out of there by lunch?  Did God have the idea of people ATTENDING 
church?

At the time when Jesus appeared in the flesh, there already was something 
like this.  It was called synagogue.  Problem is, that wasn't God's idea 
either.  The synagogue was something that evolved because of Israel's sin. 
When they were dispersed because of God's Judgment upon them and the Temple 
was destroyed, they congregated in the synagogue instead of the Temple.  The 
Temple was something God had instituted, and it had a daily service, both 
morning and evening as well as during the day.  The synagogue was something 
man had instituted, and it met every Saturday.  When the Temple was built 
again, synagogue continued as well as a place to read and study Torah, but 
there really was no Biblical mandate for it.  That does not make it wrong, 
per se, but when we are talking about God's idea of an assembly, we should 
keep this perspective in mind.  God instituted Temple.  He did not institute 
synagogue.  Synagogue was something God allowed to develop, and it was 
something that God participated in.

Jesus spoke of his congregation using a different word from that which was 
used to talk about synagogue.  It was ekklesia.  This was a word used to 
talk about a smaller group called out of a larger group, and it was called 
out having a specific purpose in mind.  For example, each of the Greek city 
states had a political body that would assemble to deal with political 
issues.  This group was called ekklesia (our word we translate as 
church).  The confused mob of Ephesus in Acts 19 that was against the 
believers also was called ekklesia.  In other words, the word translated 
as church in the Bible did not have a religious connotation when it was 
used by Jesus or his disciples.  When we begin to understand this, we begin 
to see that the concept of church that God had when he put it forward as 
something he would build is not the concept of church that most of us have 
today.

The word assembly probably is closer to the original word ekklesia than 
the word church.  William Tyndale, often called the father of the English 
Bible, never used the word church once in his translation of the Scriptures. 
He always translated ekklesia as congregation instead of church.

Much more to say, but this post is too long already.  Anybody up for talking 
about what church is?  Terry has put forward that church is not something we 
attend.  John speaks of church as something we attend and seems to have 
perceived Terry to be someone who forsakes church.  My perspective is that 
while church is something we can attend, Terry has an important point about 
how we are the church and that we ought not attend church in order to 
passively warm pews, fill the offering plate, listen to someone else 
sermonize, then go home until the next time church meets.  There really is a 
kind of idolatry in this scenario, isn't there?

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
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Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity

Terry wrote:
 Possibly you are correct, but I see Paul as more
 of a transient evangelist or missionary than as a
 resident elder/pastor/priest ...

I agree.  In such situations, it is natural for the group to be more passive 
and want to hear him exclusively before he leaves.

Terry wrote:
 Seems funny that when he gives details as to why
 the saints come together it is never to hear a sermon.

Actually, he does tell the saints that they come together to GIVE a sermon, 
and such implies that there will be some there to HEAR a sermon.  :-)

1 Corinthians 14:26
(26) How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath 
a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an 
interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Notice the word doctrine in this list of what the Corinthian believers 
were doing when the whole church comes together.  This is teaching -- a 
sermon.  However, I think in this case, more interaction is involved than is 
found in the typical Christian congregation on a Sunday morning.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
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Re: [TruthTalk] community and the Kingdom of God

2005-06-04 Thread Terry Clifton

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Thinking
Out Loud (again). Some of these thoughts
and wording comes from From Cells to Souls -- a section in that book
written by Alan Torrance. The following is a
combination of AT?s thinking and my understanding of the importance of
his presentations.

In search of a truly heuristic
consequence, many have involved themselves in
the recovery of the gospel story as realized in the triune God and the
Sonship of Christ.
?Christians acknowledge that the complexity of
the world is irreducible to anything other than the simplest
explanation of all --- the
God who has created persons in his image for personal communion with
himself, with each other and, indeed, with all
the other sentient beings which contribute o to the richness of the
world we know. ? (p222). And
there you have it -- ?the
simplest explanation of all,? that mankind has
been created in His very image. If there is
another explanation for that image, certainly it must in
clude the idea of ?community.?

God loves the Son, the
Son loves the Father and the Holy Spirit is the _expression_ of each in
this world and in the lives of those who are a part of His creation
after The Reconciliation (Col 1:17ff).

That being true, the
personal behavior of man is incomplete until expressed in the company
of others (p210). Man was created for the expressed purpose of the
expansion of community (ye shall be fruitful
and multiply) ?.. God?s covenant with Abraham had everything to do with
the blessing of an increasing community of persons. Israel
was God manifest in national function. His
Christ was all about the reconciliation of all things
/SPAN-- a tearing
down of the barriers erected in the garden, allowing the bridging of
the divide created by man?s decision to chart his own course, to go his
own way, to misappropriate the revealed word of the day
[?ye shall not surely die ] His church is His bride, bearing the offspring of
all that reveals His power and presence -- a community of believers that live to reveal God
to a lost and confused world. He is the
Father, we are his adoptive children. Community
is written on every page and thought of God?s dealings with man. ?The relational dimens
ion of human nature? is at the centre of our very being.
It is such because and only because we have been created in
that image and for that purpose. Community is
not only the image of creative endeavor, it is the very purpose for our
existence. Our identity as persons, our true identity is manifest in freedom (the perfect law of liberty), in presence (ye who are spiritual help those who are weak; pour yourselves out for the hunger, give
yourselves to the afflicted and see your light shine as the noonday
sun), in love (the
whole law is fulfilled in this, love God and love your neighbor as you
love yourself), and in
communion (the fellowship of the saints and the indwelling of God,
Himself, in our lives).

The grand truth of the Christian faith
is our participation in His personal existence as opposed to His nature ?. For it God at work in
us to will and accomplish. If we understand
that intrinsic to His existence is this thing we call community, we, then, understand just how important it is to be
a beneficial part of the larger community. John
says it this wise: No one has seen God at
anytime but if we love one another, God abides in us and His love is
perfected in us ???. He
has given us His Spirit.
Perhaps this is where the "kingdom" comes into
play. If we understand that the kingdom of God is the sovereign rule and
authority of God, then Christ?s words ?the kingdom is within,? and ?my
kingdom is not of this world? can have real and
precise meaning. If ?kingdom? in the New
Covenant age is the reality and rule of God, Himself, on any level given vision, whether ?thy kingdom come,? ?you are near to the kingdom,
? ?my father has granted me kingdom [not ?a? kingdom], the
kingdom is not eating and drinking,? ?heirs of
the kingdom of promise,? then, perhaps we are
on our way to understanding ?kingdom
rule.?

Kingdom is tied irrevocably to the communion of
God in man;that is what I have come to believe. When
we speak of sovereign rule and authority, we do
the idea great injustice if we separate that rule fromits inward throne --- the heart and soul of
man. Kingdom rule, at whatever level, always
includes His ?subjects? That is the illusion -- kingdom = a king and
His people. And that is His kingdom. His influence in the people of God.
SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes" Paul says it this way: The kingdom
of God is not
eating and drinking but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy
Spirit.

Reject the notion of community and you cannot
understand the Godhead, the fellowship of the saints, the purpose of
creation, the nature of God, the effect of the
cross, the vitality and importance of the
church, the indwelling spirit and kingdom
rule. The heuristic circumstance that best pictures all these things is

Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] NIV Bible Quiz

David Miller wrote:
 ... Jesus also respected Scripture the way that we do.

Gary wrote:
 myth (false prophets speak of JC in the past tense
 for manipulative personal reasons or as does the
 author, below)

If I had spoken in the present tense and told you what Jesus Christ said to 
me today, you would still have an ad hominem slap to send my way.  How about 
giving it a rest.  We are looking for posts with substance, not posts that 
malign and accuse other TruthTalk members of evil.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] NIV Bible Quiz

Lance wrote:
 I've found a total lack of concern on TT, from
 DM to DH, for global issues.

I agree, Lance, that my concern for global issues is not very high.  In 
fact, my concern for national issues isn't very high either.  I'm in one of 
those situations where things are so bad here at home that I try to take 
care of the problems here and do not have much of myself left to concern 
myself with issues across the other side of the globe.  I hope one day that 
I might be used that way, but right now, my plate is full and I don't know 
how to add global issues to it.  My hope lies in the pattern seen in Acts 1, 
where he says to be witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in 
Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.  Historically there was a 
progression in maturity from things local to things global.  I think perhaps 
that you are older than me.  Was there ever a time in your life when you 
were not concerned enough with things global?

Lance wrote:
 To make light of 4M deaths is simply beyond
 my comprehension.

What is your perspective about the more than 46 million deaths through 
abortion?  Do you have a solution to this problem?  Are you concerned about 
it?  I haven't heard you address the problem of abortion.  Don't you think 
we should start with this more local problem of abortion rather than the 
problems in the Ivory Coast and related areas?

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] NIV Bible Quiz

Was there ever a time when...Yes, there was.

Abortion. Have you read 'Freakonomics'? Look at his 'take' on abortion. Yes
I do have a solution. Starting with yourself and, working outward, tell men
not to get women pregnant who will not carry the pregnancy to term. Is this
a joke? It is not!


- Original Message - 
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: June 04, 2005 08:56
Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] NIV Bible Quiz


 Lance wrote:
  I've found a total lack of concern on TT, from
  DM to DH, for global issues.

 I agree, Lance, that my concern for global issues is not very high.  In
 fact, my concern for national issues isn't very high either.  I'm in one
of
 those situations where things are so bad here at home that I try to take
 care of the problems here and do not have much of myself left to concern
 myself with issues across the other side of the globe.  I hope one day
that
 I might be used that way, but right now, my plate is full and I don't know
 how to add global issues to it.  My hope lies in the pattern seen in Acts
1,
 where he says to be witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in
 Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.  Historically there was
a
 progression in maturity from things local to things global.  I think
perhaps
 that you are older than me.  Was there ever a time in your life when you
 were not concerned enough with things global?

 Lance wrote:
  To make light of 4M deaths is simply beyond
  my comprehension.

 What is your perspective about the more than 46 million deaths through
 abortion?  Do you have a solution to this problem?  Are you concerned
about
 it?  I haven't heard you address the problem of abortion.  Don't you think
 we should start with this more local problem of abortion rather than the
 problems in the Ivory Coast and related areas?

 Peace be with you.
 David Miller.


 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

[TruthTalk] Jesus 'thinks' globally (how could He not?) IFF you......




have the mind of Christ 
then...

Both nationalism and idealism are counterproductive 
vis a vis the kingdom of God.

I'd also assert that Jesus is a critical realist! 
For those from Rio Linda (a Rushism), ask DavidM.

Re: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH

Lance wrote:
 We may have unamimity on my next observation (?):
 At the end of all ends what will matter is whether
 or not Jesus identifies you as a Christian.

Amen, Lance.  Well said.  Whether or not we know Jesus is not nearly as 
important as whether or not Jesus knows us.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH

Mester Blaine: Jesus, indeed, is the same.The notion that he has spoken in this dispensation is apparently given credence (in your thinking) because of the claim to fame -- 4th largest denomination. What does the comparison of numbers mean when you compare to say -- Buddhism? How are you doing in that exchange. Could it be that numbers mean absolutely nothing when it comes to the establishment of truth. I mean, my family is larger than yours... 7 kids and 12 grandchildren. That makes us --- what? Right?

Secondly, the Mormon revelations have nothing to do with the First Church. There was no doctrine in the first church that provided for polygamy. Blacks were welcome. Grace, not works, was the theme of the day, God as expressed in the Godhead, was and is the only God, salvation was a gifted occurrence apart from the law, the church was never "right" in terms of the thinking and actions of its membership, and the governmental structure of the first church was nothing similar to what you have today -- dispite the use of such words as "elders" and "bishops."
bsp; No one believed that Temple righteousness played a role in securing new heavens and new earths for the faithful -- becoming gods to the same degree as the god of this earth.

I mention the "first church," because the justification for the revelations of Mormonism have everything to do a supposed apostasy from the True Church of the first century.such an opinionignores the factthat "first church" was divided based on doctrine and if we count heads,doctrinal error(works salvationism -- Jewish style)was, by far, the majority opinion. The notion that the church and its leadership had controls over the individual members (a false doctrine) led to the establishment of the Pope and the continuance of works salvationism. There would have been no Pope if the membership understood that the rule of the bishop was a rule of example only. The first church did
not understand the theology of accepted diversity as taught in Romans 14. In fact, if we cut out all the material inthe NT letters, if we cut all the material that was written to inform and correct the thinking of the first church - we would have nothing left but a pamphlet of NT instruction.

-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 01:29:00 EDTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH

In a message dated 6/1/2005 1:34:33 PM Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The mormons have their JSmith; the J.Witnesses have their CT Russell, theChristian Scientists have their Mary Baker Eddy; the RCC's have their Pope,and the Incarnationalists have their "Bishop". Ever wonder if ANY of themhave the "right" Jesus? Izzy

Blaine: The "Right" Jesus is the one we all worship, and saying he is different because of this or that is rediculous.Jesus has not changed, and he has spoken to men in this dispensation, just as in olden times, and the truths he taught will eventually engulf the world, as the stone(His Church) cut out of the side of the mountain rolls forth and eventually fills the whole earth. And Pairing Joseph Smith with a bunch of other false Christs and false prophets is just another of Satan's tricks.You are using the "guilt by association" approach to reasoning, which is false reasoning, and shameful for anyone to have to resort to it. By the way, the Mormon
Church is now the 4th largest denomination in America. Just two years ago, it was the 5th largest.

Re: [TruthTalk] community and the Kingdom of God

Pretty much rigth on, Florida Man. And I do not know what happened when I sent this thing -- all the queston marks. ... most of them occur in the place of my ( " ") . I wrote this in Word and copied it over. I think I have done this before without this kind of problem -- sorry folks.

Jd-Original Message-From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:26:06 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] community and the Kingdom of God

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

That being true, the personal behavior of man is incomplete until expressed in the company of others (p210). Man was created for the expressed purpose of the expansion of community (ye shall be fruitful and multiply) ?.. God?s covenant with Abraham had everything to do with the blessing of an increasing community of persons.. Israel was God manifest in national function. His Christ was all about the reconciliation of all things /SPAN-- a tearing down of the barriers erected in the garden, allowing the bridging of the divide created by man?s decision to chart his own course, to go his own way, to misappropriate the revealed word of the d
ay [?ye shall not surely die ] His church is His bride, bearing the offspring of all that reveals His power and presence -- a community of believers that live to reveal God to a lost and confused world. He is the Father, we are his adoptive children. Community is written on every page and thought of God?s dealings with man. ?The relational dimens ion of human nature? is at the centre of our very being. It is such because and only because we have been created in that image and for that purpose. Community is not only the image of creative endeavor, it is the very purpose for our existence. Our identity as persons, our true identity is manifest in freedom (the perfect law of liberty), in presence (ye who are spiritual help tho
se who are weak; pour yourselves out for the hunger, give yourselves to the afflicted and see your light shine as the noonday sun), in love (the whole law is fulfilled in this, love God and love your neighbor as you love yourself), and in communion (the fellowship of the saints and the indwelling of God, Himself, in our lives).

The grand truth of the Christian faith is our participation in His personal existence as opposed to His nature ?. For it God at work in us to will and accomplish. If we understand that intrinsic to His existence is this thing we call community, we, then, understand just how important it is to be a beneficial part of the larger community. John says it this wise: No one has seen God at anytime but if we love one another, God abides in us and His love is perfected in us ???. He has given us His Spirit.
Perhaps this is where the "kingdom" comes into play. If we understand that the kingdom of God is the sovereign rule and authority of God, then Christ?s words ?the kingdom is within,? and ?my kingdom is not of this world? can have real and precise meaning. If ?kingdom? in the New Covenant age is the reality and rule of God, Himself, on any level given vision, whether ?thy kingdom come,? ?you are near to the kingdom, ? ?my father has granted me kingdom [not ?a? kingdom], the kingdom is not eating and drinking,? ?heirs of the kingdom of promise,? then, p
erhaps we are on our way to understanding ?kingdom rule.?

Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] NIV Bible Quiz