subject:"Re\: \[TruthTalk\] Something To Ponder"

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-05 Thread Slade Henson




"Of the tribe of 
Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh." was not a native-born 
Israeli.

shalom

e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, 04 November, 2003 
  08:23
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To 
  Ponder
  
  
  Bruce, Many gentiles (gers/strangers) became 
  Israelites. See below: Izzy
  
  Ex. 12-37 37 And the children of 
  Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred 
  thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
  38 
  And a mixed 
  multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very 
  much cattle.
  41And it came to 
  pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it 
  came to pass, that all the hosts of the 
  LORD went out from the land 
  of Egypt.42It is 
  a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out from the land 
  of Egypt: this is that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of 
  Israel in their generations.43And the LORD 
  said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall 
  no stranger eat thereof:44But every man's 
  servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall 
  he eat thereof.45A foreigner and an hired 
  servant shall not eat thereof.46In one house 
  shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of 
  the house; neither shall ye break a bone 
  thereof.47All the congregation of Israel 
  shall keep it.48And when a stranger shall 
  sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males 
  be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one 
  that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat 
  thereof.49One law shall be to him that is 
  homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
  
  
  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  On Behalf Of Bruce WoodfordSent: Monday, November 03, 2003 10:54 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To 
  Ponder
  
  Dear Slade,
  
  I 
  had asked if you could show even one Gentile in scripture which later 
  
  became an Israelite.
  
  You claim that Kalev (most commonly known as 
  Caleb) was not native born 
  because he had to ask for an 
  inheritance.
  
  Brother, this is just NOT SO! Remember the 12 
  spies that were sent into the 
  land in Numbers 13? One man was chosen from each 
  tribe of Israel. Numbers 
  13:6 clearly shows that Caleb was an Israelite of the 
  tribe of Judah by 
  birth into the family of Jephunneh.
  
  "Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of 
  Jephunneh."
  
  So 
  as far as I can tell (with no scriptural evidence to the contrary) no one 
  
  born a Gentile has ever become and Israelite! 
  But both Gentiles and Jews 
  who are converted to Christ become Christians, members 
  in the Body of 
  Christ, saints, disciples, believers 
  etc.
  
  So 
  where has the false idea come from that Christians are all 
  "Israelites"???
  
  Your brother in Christ,
  Bruce
  
  _
  The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months 
  FREE* 
  http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail 
  
  http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca
  
  --
  "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with 
  salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 
  4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
  
  If 
  you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a 
  friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-05 Thread Terry Clifton

Brother Bruce:

Is that the reason that the temple still had the Gentile court in 70 A.D.?

Terry


. But circumcision does not make a 
 stranger into an Isrealite.   
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-05 Thread Slade Henson

The court of the Gentile was a Second Temple phenomenon that has NO basis in
the mind of God. The Israelite who believed in God (for lack of a better
term) was to treat the sojourner AS A NATIVE BORN. By creating the Court of
Women and the Court of the Gentiles, they were violating this all-important
commandment.

Oops... I forgot. Someone here is advocating that there is a permanent wall
between Jew and Gentile, aren't they...?

shalom
slade

e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 05 November, 2003 13:51
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder


 Brother Bruce:

 Is that the reason that the temple still had the Gentile court in 70 A.D.?

 Terry


 . But circumcision does not make a
  stranger into an Isrealite.
 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-05 Thread ShieldsFamily

Bruce,  I don't have time to do the research for you, but if you studied
Jewish history you would understand that not only are gentiles accepted into
Jewry as permanent equals and Israelites, but are never allowed to be
disowned as such. Many such people who fled from Egypt were part of the
lineage of Jesus, Himself. Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Woodford
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 9:34 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Hi Izzy,

You wrote:Bruce,  Many gentiles (gers/strangers) became Israelites.  See 
below: Izzy

Ex. 12-37 37   And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to 
Succoth,about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even

very much cattle.
41   And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, 
even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went 
out from the land of Egypt.
42   It is a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out 
from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the LORD to be observed of all

the children of Israel in their generations.
43   And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the 
passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:
44   But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast 
circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
45   A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.
46   In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the

flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.
47   All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
48   And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover

to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near 
and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no 
uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49   One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that 
sojourneth among you.

Izzy, It is true that many who were not native born Israelites WERE 
CIRCUMCISED.  God commanded Abraham to circumcise every male that was born 
in his house and bought with his money. But circumcision does not make a 
stranger into an Isrealite.   If it did, all Arabs would be Israelites for 
they are circumcised!!!  As you have pointed out from scripture, no male 
could partake of the passover who was not circumcised. If strangers 
sojourning among Israel wanted to eat the passover, they had to be 
circumcised and in that they were circumcised they became like those who 
were born in the land. But scripture never says that circumcision alone 
makes a Gentile into an Israelite!!  It simply enables him to eat the 
passover.

Nor does scripture ever teach that circumcison of the heart makes a 
Gentile convert to Christ into an Israelite!

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce

_
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online  
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.



--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-05 Thread Bruce Woodford

Slade,
You wrote:Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh. was not a
native-born Israeli.

May I ask you why or upon what scriptural evidence you make this claim? How
could someone be of the tribe of Judah and NOT be a native born Israeli???

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Woodford
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 10:54 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Dear Slade,

I had asked if you could show even one Gentile in scripture which later

became an Israelite.

You claim that Kalev (most commonly known as Caleb) was not native born

because he had to ask for an inheritance.

Brother, this is just NOT SO! Remember the 12 spies that were sent into
the

land in Numbers 13? One man was chosen from each tribe of Israel.
Numbers

13:6 clearly shows that Caleb was an Israelite of the tribe of Judah by

birth into the family of Jephunneh.

Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh.

So as far as I can tell (with no scriptural evidence to the contrary) no
one

born a Gentile has ever become and Israelite! But both Gentiles and
Jews

who are converted to Christ become Christians, members in the Body of

Christ, saints, disciples, believers etc.

So where has the false idea come from that Christians are all

Israelites???

Your brother in Christ,

Bruce

The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*

http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca

Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

_
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought
to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-05 Thread Bruce Woodford

Him Terry,
I'll be honest with you,  ...I do not know!
Bruce

From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:51:21 -0600
Brother Bruce:

Is that the reason that the temple still had the Gentile court in 70 A.D.?

Terry

. But circumcision does not make a
 stranger into an Isrealite.
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a 
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
_
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*   
http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought 
to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-05 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Izzy,

You wrote:Bruce, I don't have time to do the research for you, but if you
studied Jewish history you would understand that not only are gentiles
accepted into Jewry as permanent equals and Israelites, but are never
allowed to be disowned as such. Many such people who fled from Egypt were
part of the
lineage of Jesus, Himself.

Dear Sister, I'm not asking you to do my research for me! I'm asking how do
YOU, yourself know from scripture that any Gentiles ever become
Israelites???

I'm not so sure about Gentiles who fled from Egypt being part of the lineage
of Christ (how do you know this?), but I do know that a number of Gentile
women (Ruth and Rahab) are part of the lineage of Christ. Does scripture
ever teach us that they became Israelites by marrying Israelite men???

I also know that gentiles sojourning among the Israelites could be
circumcised and thus qualify to partake of the Passover. BUT are you aware
of any scripture that teaches that those who were not born Israelites became
Israelites by being circumcised? If so, are circumcised Arabs actually
Israeli's??

I've asked these questions before and am not receiving answers!

I'm hoping you might answer these questions with scripture, if indeed they
can be answered. If they cannot be answered with scripture, I just wish you
would be willing to acknowledge the fact.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
_
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/viruspgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-04 Thread ShieldsFamily









Bruce,
Many gentiles (gers/strangers) became Israelites. See below: Izzy



Ex.
12-37 37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses
to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.

38
And a mixed
multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very
much cattle.

41And it came to
pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it
came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD
went out from the land of Egypt.
42It is a night to be much observed
unto the LORD for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night
of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations.
43And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is
the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:
44But every man's servant that is bought for
money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
45A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat
thereof.
46In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not
carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break
a bone thereof.
47All the
congregation of Israel shall keep it.
48And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and
will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then
let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land:
for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and
unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.







-Original
Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Woodford
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 10:54 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder



Dear
Slade,



I
had asked if you could show even one Gentile in scripture which later 

became
an Israelite.



You
claim that Kalev (most commonly known as Caleb) was not native born 

because
he had to ask for an inheritance.



Brother,
this is just NOT SO! Remember the 12 spies that were sent into the 

land
in Numbers 13? One man was chosen from each tribe of Israel.
Numbers 

13:6
clearly shows that Caleb was an Israelite of the tribe of Judah by 

birth
into the family of Jephunneh.



Of
the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh.



So
as far as I can tell (with no scriptural evidence to the contrary) no one 

born
a Gentile has ever become and Israelite! But both Gentiles and Jews 

who
are converted to Christ become Christians, members in the Body of 

Christ,
saints, disciples, believers etc.



So
where has the false idea come from that Christians are all 

Israelites???



Your
brother in Christ,

Bruce



_

The
new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* 

http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca



--

Let
your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you
ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org



If
you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-04 Thread Carrolll Moore

- Original Message - 
From: ShieldsFamily 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 11/4/2003 8:24:00 AM 
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Bruce, Many gentiles (gers/strangers) became Israelites. See below: Izzy

Ex. 12-37 37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
41And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.42It is a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations.43And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:44But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then
 shall he eat thereof.45A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.46In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.47All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.48And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.49One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
**Way to go Izzy:-)

-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce WoodfordSent: Monday, November 03, 2003 10:54 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Dear Slade,

I had asked if you could show even one Gentile in scripture which later 
became an Israelite.

You claim that Kalev (most commonly known as Caleb) was not native born 
because he had to ask for an inheritance.

Brother, this is just NOT SO! Remember the 12 spies that were sent into the 
land in Numbers 13? One man was chosen from each tribe of Israel. Numbers 
13:6 clearly shows that Caleb was an Israelite of the tribe of Judah by 
birth into the family of Jephunneh.

"Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh."

So as far as I can tell (with no scriptural evidence to the contrary) no one 
born a Gentile has ever become and Israelite! But both Gentiles and Jews 
who are converted to Christ become Christians, members in the Body of 
Christ, saints, disciples, believers etc.

So where has the false idea come from that Christians are all 
"Israelites"???

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce

_
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail 
http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-04 Thread michael douglas

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

-Original Message-Notice how Paul says that the law has DOMINION over a man as long as he
lives. Now he tries to explain a way for us to die that we should no
longer be married to the law and be under its dominion, but rather now
we can be married to Christ. Do you see it in this passage? We cannot
be married to Christ unless we are divorced from the law. Do you see
that in this passage?

David, I see being divorced from the law as not relying upon the law to get (or stay) saved. I do not see it as license to disregard the law and live in rebellion to the law.
It seems that you can agree to that as long as Gods law is considered some foggy, ethereal, touchy-feely (and unwritten) thing all about Luv, luv, luv. J You dont want it to include the literal law for some reason,
Michael D: Hey Iz, it was the Holy Ghost who demanded that the Law not be commandedfor the Gentiles. If this is the case, then what is the benefit of obeying the law?
You tend to differentiate between obeying to be saved and obeying out of an obligation to keep God's commands. My question is ...if obeying the law cannot get you saved, nor do they keep you saved, what's the value of requiring it at all - especially since God said don't require it of the Gentiles?
and yet you say that you believe in keeping the literal law by obeying a higher law. Am I the only one that this makes NO sense to? Youve learned Geometry and Algebra, but thrown away basic math again. IzzyWant to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-04 Thread ttxpress




So what(?),people become Mormans, 
too,but it has nothing 
to do with the kingdom of God

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:23:55 -0600 
"ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  ..Many gentiles (gers/strangers) became 
  Israelites.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-04 Thread Carrolll Moore

- Original Message - 
From: Judith H. Taylor 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 11/2/2003 9:49:27 AM 
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Hi Dean:

Jesus said that if we love Him we will do what He says which is the same thing.
Love fulfills the whole law and someone walking in His love keeps His Word
by walking after the Spirit as opposed tothe more legalistic keeping of the letter.
Jesus also said "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father" so wouldn't
Christ be the express image of God ie His likes, dislikes, and personality?
Grace and Peace to you,
Judy
Yes Sister-I also believe that they are one in their love and direction-but separate in their tasks to accomplish that direction-Jesus Died for ALL mankind and God the Father accepted his death as atonement for sin. While I also agree with your view of being bogged down in legalism-I reserve the right to treat each sin that comes my way as a separate issue and respond accordingly with Godly fear.If a German was searching for a Jew that I hid would it be wrong to lie and tell Him "I don't know"? I don't think so -but even then I would have to seek forgiveness for this transgression of Gods law-But as God look to our intent to do evil or to do good-I feel I would be justified.My view of the Sabbath is the same way-Common sense must be used when deciding such matters-but I feel that one should bare in mind that the early Church searched themselves daily to keep in check their obedience to God's laws-Even to the 17 century age of enlightenment brethren such as John Edwards,John Wesley..etc pleaded with God not to remove his 
spirit because they realized that without this spirit they would fall-To me this is Godly fear. Due to this belief the term "Legalistic" loses it strength from mypoint of view.But to make every thing wrong -as some do- would fit that definition.To me following the teaching of Jesus with Godly fear while keeping his commandments (w/t love of the brethern) is the way to go-for on that rock do I stand :-)

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-04 Thread ttxpress




Dean,

Aren't they saying, below, 
thatpeople 'bogged down in legalism' arenatfollowing 
Jesus? 

g


On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:20:44 -0500 "Carrolll Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes 
to Judy:

  ..I also agree with your view of being bogged down in legalism..John 
  Edwards,John Wesley..etc pleaded with God not to remove his spirit because 
  they realized that without this spirit they would 
fall..

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-04 Thread David Miller

Slade wrote:
 I kind of enjoy this dichotomy (I plagiarize you 
 to get it across): When we walk in love toward 
 God and neighbor, we will fulfill all the law. 
 When we fulfill all the law, we will walk in love 
 toward God and neighbor.

Your dichotomy here does not really work because the law is only a
subset of what defines righteousness.  In other words, LOVE is the
bigger and more inclusive aspect of righteousness.  When one loves, one
automatically will be in keeping with the righteous requirements of the
law.

The converse, however, is not necessarily true.  A man can be Torah
observant as best he can, and yet not walk in love toward God and
neighbor.  He might approximate love in some ways, but it is possible
for him to be Torah observant out of a sense of duty or sense of
obligation rather than from a heart that cares.  

The real power of Torah is in convicting the disobedient.  This is the
purpose of Torah and why we have Torah.  It convinces man that he is
evil and needs a Savior.  Nobody can become a man of love through
obeying Torah.  Torah only leads us to condemnation and the Savior,
through whom we then receive eternal life.  See Romans 7 for details.

None of these comments are meant to indicate that Torah has been done
away with or abolished, nor does it mean that we are free to transgress
Torah.  It only puts Torah in its proper perspective concerning how God
intends to use Torah in our lives.  The Torah is for sinners and lawless
people, not for those who are made righteous in Christ Jesus.  We
respect Torah, study it, learn from it, and even keep many of its
commandments, but we do not look to Torah to sanctify us or make us
holy.  This can only come through the eternal Spirit we receive by faith
in Jesus Christ.
 
Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-04 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Izzy,

You wrote:Bruce,  Many gentiles (gers/strangers) became Israelites.  See 
below: Izzy

Ex. 12-37 37   And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to 
Succoth,about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even 
very much cattle.
41   And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, 
even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went 
out from the land of Egypt.
42   It is a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out 
from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the LORD to be observed of all 
the children of Israel in their generations.
43   And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the 
passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:
44   But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast 
circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
45   A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.
46   In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the 
flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.
47   All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
48   And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover 
to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near 
and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no 
uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49   One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that 
sojourneth among you.

Izzy, It is true that many who were not native born Israelites WERE 
CIRCUMCISED.  God commanded Abraham to circumcise every male that was born 
in his house and bought with his money. But circumcision does not make a 
stranger into an Isrealite.   If it did, all Arabs would be Israelites for 
they are circumcised!!!  As you have pointed out from scripture, no male 
could partake of the passover who was not circumcised. If strangers 
sojourning among Israel wanted to eat the passover, they had to be 
circumcised and in that they were circumcised they became like those who 
were born in the land. But scripture never says that circumcision alone 
makes a Gentile into an Israelite!!  It simply enables him to eat the 
passover.

Nor does scripture ever teach that circumcison of the heart makes a 
Gentile convert to Christ into an Israelite!

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
_
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online  
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought 
to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Something to Ponder

2003-11-03 Thread Carrolll Moore

 [Original Message]
 From: Bruce Woodford [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 11/2/2003 5:47:04 PM
 Subject: [TruthTalk] Something to Ponder

 Hi Dean,

 Will be praying for you in your street preaching in England, Ireland, 
 Scotland and Wales. When do you leave and how long do you expect to be 
 there? Keep us posted if you can as to the opportunities which the Lord 
 opens up and opposition which you face along the way!
   ~Dean wrote:I will be leaving Nov.5 and returning Nov 19 (Lord
willing)-I will have to update you upon my return as God sees fit.

 When you wrote that the vine, the olive tree, the election and Israel
were 
 all one and the same...
 I wrote:When the Spirit uses  distinct terms, He intends distinct 
 meanings.

 To which you responded:But brother we are talking saved or lost here. Not 
 saved ,lost,or Jew.

 The Lord Jesus clearly stated that HE was the vine and we (believers)
are 
 the branches. We are NOT the vine!  Israel is not the vine! Nor are
branches 
 ever spoken of in scripture as being grafted into the vine!  Grafting
is a 
 subject only taken up in Romans 11 relative to the olive tree. So the
vine 
 is NOT the same as the olive tree, nor is Israel the same as the olive!
 ~Dean wrote:
Brother I see these parables as the same-Jesus is our connect to the father
we are the branches that are suppose to bear fruit -with patience.We were
wild contrary to the nature of God and had to be pressed (grafted) into the
promise.

 There are some Israelites (natural branches) who were broken off, so it
is 
 evident that whatever the olive tree is, it is not all regenerate people 
 because it had natural branches! So the olive tree cannot be saved
people 
 as you suggest!   That is why I said, and Romans 11 teaches that the
olive 
 tree is the election and NOT Israel!  Israel, the whole nation (rebels
and 
 all) was elected (chosen) by God to be a special people unto Himself. The 
 nation (the totality of Israelites) was not elected to be saved. But when 
 Israel rebelled against God in unbelief, the natural branches were cut
off 
 and gentile believers who are the people of God were grafted in. They
were 
 not grafted into ISRAEL, but into the olive tree of God's election!
 ~Dean wrote:
 I guess what I am attempting to say is: there is only lost or saved people
in these passages-One is either joined to Jesus Christ or not-if we are
joined to him we will bear fruit because of Him. He is the vines or the
tree that supports the branches. Those that are saved -in my opinion-are
the elect weather they were Jew or Gentile.Israel stayed in part for some
believed as Paul said in Romans 11:1
 I say then has God cast away his people? God forbid. 
No they are still there but we are included with them now because of
Jesus-we are there also-with them.

 Further on, you wrote:We seem to be going in circles here-The point of
this 
 is not who was cast out-but rather who was grafted into the promise-Who
but 
 those that believe in Jesus Christ-And in doing so we are to believe his 
 words and he said to keep God's commandments-so we are to do so-including 
 the 4th commandment.

  Dear Dean, NO ONE was ever grafted into a promise! Rather branches are 
 grafted into an olive tree! But those who believe God RECEIVE the promise 
 which is the Holy Spirit. See Joel chapter 2, the text of Peter's message
on 
 the Day of Pentecost recorded in Acts 2.
 ~Dean writes:
To me grafting represents a way for us that God made.If we are partakers
of the root-Then we are partakers of the promise-The root and the promise
are the same-Jesus Christ and Salvation.
Acts 13:23  Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised
unto Israel a savior,Jesus. The Holy spirit was a part of the promise
which Jesus sent in Joal and Acts chp2-but Jesus was the present from
God-He paid the price-The Holy Spirit was the present from Jesus to us.

 But back to the sabbath commandment. Yes, I agree with you it is a 
 commandment of God. So is the circumcision of male children on the 8th
day. 
 But even though circumcision was commanded by God, Gentiles have no 
 obligation to that commandment because it was not given to them! It was 
 given to the physical descendents of Abraham, both Jews and Arabs today 
 rightfully practice circumcision as God commanded them. But those who are 
 not physical descendents of Abraham have no such obligation, never have
and 
 never will!
~Dean writes:
I fail to see where circumcision is a commandments giving in Exodus 20.
There is wisdom of circumcision for the body functions more healther-But
circumcision was fulfilled in Jesus upon salvation-The hard calloused heart
was removed to expose the tender new heart-So circumcision was a type of
shadow of salvation-Which Jesus fulfilled. In Exodus 20:18 God set his seal
(stamp of approval) on his commandments with thundering,lightening,a
trumpet,and a smoking mountain so loud that the people moved away.As the
Israel was brought out of

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-03 Thread Slade Henson

I recanted and said, oops.. I mean Kalev his buddy who had to ASK for an
inheritance in the Land because he was not native born.
shalom

e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: Bruce Woodford [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, 02 November, 2003 17:49
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

 Hi Slade,

 I wrote:Can you name even one person in scripture who was born a Gentile
in
 the  flesh who is called by God an Israelite after conversion to Christ?
 If  you can, you will help me a lot on this because to date, I am unaware
of
 any.

 You responded:Joshua

 I have found 5 different Joshuas in scripture:
 -the son of Nun, who succeded Moses,
 -the Bethshemite of I Sam.6:18,
 -the governor of the city, II Kings 23:8,
 -the son of Josedech the High Priest Haggai 1:1, and
 -the High Priest, Zechariah 3:1.

 To which of these were you referring? And how do you know that he was born
a
 Gentile and became an Israelite?

 Your brother in Christ,
 Bruce

 _
 Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*

http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-03 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear Slade,

I had asked if you could show even one Gentile in scripture which later
became an Israelite.

You claim that Kalev (most commonly known as Caleb) was not native born
because he had to ask for an inheritance.

Brother, this is just NOT SO! Remember the 12 spies that were sent into the
land in Numbers 13? One man was chosen from each tribe of Israel. Numbers
13:6 clearly shows that Caleb was an Israelite of the tribe of Judah by
birth into the family of Jephunneh.

Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh.

So as far as I can tell (with no scriptural evidence to the contrary) no one
born a Gentile has ever become and Israelite! But both Gentiles and Jews
who are converted to Christ become Christians, members in the Body of
Christ, saints, disciples, believers etc.

So where has the false idea come from that Christians are all
Israelites???

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
_
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-02 Thread Carrolll Moore

- Original Message - 
From: ShieldsFamily 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 11/1/2003 9:45:57 PM 
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Galatians 3:29
And if [Rom 4:13; 1 Cor 3:23] you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. 

Replacement theology is dangerously doctrinally incorrect. We have not replaced Abraham or his descendants. We have been grafted into them, and that only by Gods amazing grace. Izzy
Dean writes:
Izzy-To be in the promise one must come thru Christ whom was thru Isaac-Here is the promise giving to Abraham, but to say that one inherits the promise simply because they are descendents of Abraham is-in my opinion-incorrect. The Jews are included only if they come thru Christ-if not they are excluded from the promise and the covenant giving to Abraham. This is of course referring to the heavenly promise-not the earthly promise of the land of Israel-but at a later time they will also be excluded from the land as the goats and the sheep are separated(If any still refuse to believe on his appearing as God allows). To say this would not be Replacement Theology as many Israelites believe in Christ and later when they cry of to Him-He will come and the nation will be accepted into the promise as God chooses.

-Original Message-On Behalf Of Carrolll Moore
The children of the flesh are represented by Abraham and the children of
the spirit are represented by Isaac-who we are grafted into the vine/olive
tree by. Those of Abraham are cast out we are grafted in.Look at Gal.4:21-31

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-02 Thread Judith H. Taylor




Someone writes:
The 
children of the flesh are represented by Abraham and 
the 
children of the spirit are represented by Isaac-who 

we are 
grafted into the vine/olive tree by. Those of 
Abraham 
are cast out we are grafted in.Look at 
Gal.4:21-31

Comment:
The 
focus of Gal 4:21-31 is neither Isaac nor Ishmael.
The 
focus is "the promise" which is Christ Himself and 
yes,
the 
promise is in the spiritand not after the flesh. He is 
the
vine and 
those of us"in Him" are the branches.

How did 
this get so complicated?

Judy

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-02 Thread Carrolll Moore

- Original Message - 
From: Judith H. Taylor 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 11/2/2003 8:02:56 AM 
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Someone writes:
The children of the flesh are represented by Abraham and 
the children of the spirit are represented by Isaac-who 
we are grafted into the vine/olive tree by. Those of Abraham 
are cast out we are grafted in.Look at Gal.4:21-31

Comment:
The focus of Gal 4:21-31 is neither Isaac nor Ishmael.
The focus is "the promise" which is Christ Himself and yes,
the promise is in the spiritand not after the flesh. He is the
vine and those of us"in Him" are the branches.

How did this get so complicated?

Judy
Dean writes:
It is only complicatedby those whom don't want to keep Gods commandments-To us his commandments are a joy for they are a part of who God is-His likes and his dislikes-His personality.From this light it is simple.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-02 Thread Slade Henson

 Can you name even one person in scripture who was born a Gentile in the
 flesh who is called by God an Israelite after conversion to Christ?   If
 you can, you will help me a lot on this because to date, I am unaware of
any

Joshua

shalom
slade

e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: Bruce Woodford [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, 01 November, 2003 22:22
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder


 Dean,

 When I wrote:Brother, are you not mixing your metaphors?  A vine is NOT
an
 olive tree!...

 You responded:*The vine (Jesus Christ John15:5) and the election are the
 same as is the olive tree-due to the fact that we are the partakers of
the
 root and fatness of the olive tree. v.17

 These statements are totally unrelated by scripture! When the Spirit uses
 distinct terms, He intends distinct meanings.

 You continued:Roman 9:7..but in Isaac shall thy seed be called. The
 children of the flesh are represented by Abraham and the children of the
 spirit are represented by Isaac-who we are grafted into the vine/olive
tree
 by. Those of Abraham are cast out we are grafted in.Look at Gal.4:21-31

 Dean, you really need to pay attention to the text! The contrast of
 Galatians 4 is not between TWO MEN (Abraham and Isaac), but rather between
 TWO WOMEN (Hagar and Sarah) and their sons (Ishmael and Isaac)!

 Nor does Abraham represent the children of the flesh who are cast out!
Both
 Ishmael and Isaac were sons of Abraham!  Rather Galatians 3:29 teaches us
 that, If ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according
to
 the promise.

 Further, you quoted bits and pieces of your text: For it is written,That
 Abram had two sons,.. v.24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the
 two covenants;...v.30 So then brethren we are not children of the
bondwomen
 ,but of the free.

 Then you made an unsubstantiated claim:The same vine- the same tree-the
 same promise-the same commandments.

 You would have been better to read and quote the whole text including
 Galatians 4:23, ALL of v.24 and verses 25-31!  None of which speak of a
 vine, an olive tree or commandments!!!

 Then you quoted two other texts which for the life of me I cannot see how
 they have any bearing on the discussion of the vine and the olive
tree!

 1John 5:3 For this is the love of God,that we keep his commandments:and
his
 commandments are not grievous.
 Matt.19:17...but if thou wilt enter into life keep the commandments.

 I had written:Romans 11 does NOT teach that the olive tree is Israel, but
 rather the election.  See verses 5,7 and 28.  As Gentiles who believe in
 Christ, we are grafted in to the election but not into Israel.

 You responded*As Gentiles who believe in Christ we are grafted into the
 election that is the promise giving to Israel thru Isaac unto Jacob (whom
is
 Israel- the son of  the promise-Gen.3:28 Thy name shall be no more Jacob,
 but Israel...) which we are partakers of.

 Dear Dean, you really had my head spinning on this one! Gen 3 has no verse
 28! I finally realized you meant 32:28 (Jacob's name changed to Israel).
But
 there is no expression son of promise that I can find in scripture!  But
 in Gal.4:28 and 29 we read: Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the
 children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh
persecuted
 him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

 As far as I can tell from scripture, all Israelites became Israelites by
 natural  fleshly birth.  (Can you name anyone in scripture who is called
an
 Israelite who was not born an Israelite in the flesh?)  But not all flesh
 born Israelites who are of Israel are Israel (prince of God)! (Romans
 9:6)  Instead, as the Lord Jesus plainly declared of some of them, Ye are
 of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do.  John
 8:44

 Can you name even one person in scripture who was born a Gentile in the
 flesh who is called by God an Israelite after conversion to Christ?   If
 you can, you will help me a lot on this because to date, I am unaware of
any
 such Israelite!

 I am willing to learn from clear scriptural statements, but refuse
 assumptions which have no scriptural basis at all.

 Bruce

 _
 Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.

http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/featurespgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-02 Thread ttxpress


-- Bruce Woodford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[IOW..]scripture[..]teaches[..]that those who are
Christ's are [not] Israelites!

IOW (again:) :  The Ap. Paul's underlying NT point is that Abe is not an Israelite; 
neither, then, is Abe's spiritually saved 'seed', in Christ.

gary ottoson :: poet235.com




The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-02 Thread Carrolll Moore

- Original Message - 
From: Judith H. Taylor 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 11/2/2003 9:49:27 AM 
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Hi Dean:

Jesus said that if we love Him we will do what He says which is the same thing.
Love fulfills the whole law and someone walking in His love keeps His Word
by walking after the Spirit as opposed tothe more legalistic keeping of the letter.
Jesus also said "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father" so wouldn't
Christ be the express image of God ie His likes, dislikes, and personality?

Grace and Peace to you,
Judy

Dean writes:
* Sister Judy, It is my belief that one had better live up to the letter of the Law (Not dietary nor priestly laws but commandments)to the best of their ability while praying for more strenght in this area-A wise person would seek God daily that His spirit not depart from them-for it is the only thing holding them up.
Yes I agree-the commandment would be fulfilled in love for if one loves God they will not violate the first table of His commandments-and if one loves his neighbor then they will not violate the second table of the His commandments.
And this is love,that we walk after his commandments2 John 6

On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:07:56 -0500 "Carrolll Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
Dean writes:
It is only complicatedby those whom don't want to keep Gods commandments-To us his commandments are a joy for they are a part of who God is-His likes and his dislikes-His personality.From this light it is simple.

- Original Message - 
From: Judith H. Taylor 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 11/2/2003 8:02:56 AM 
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Someone writes:
The children of the flesh are represented by Abraham and 
the children of the spirit are represented by Isaac-who 
we are grafted into the vine/olive tree by. Those of Abraham 
are cast out we are grafted in.Look at Gal.4:21-31

Comment:
The focus of Gal 4:21-31 is neither Isaac nor Ishmael.
The focus is "the promise" which is Christ Himself and yes,
the promise is in the spiritand not after the flesh. He is the
vine and those of us"in Him" are the branches.

How did this get so complicated?

Judy

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-02 Thread ShieldsFamily









Correct:
All BelieversJew or Gentileare the spiritual seed of Abraham, and
heirs of the promises given to those who believe and obey. However, we
are to be careful not to become arrogant against Jews, just because we are in
the Church. Izzy



Romans 11:

I say then, God has not (1)
rejected His people, has He? (2)
May it never be! For (3)
I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 
2God (4)
has not rejected His people whom He (5)
foreknew. ..

17But if some of
the (28)
branches were broken off, and (29)
you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with
them of the rich root of the olive tree, 
18do not be
arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that
(30)
it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 
19(31)
You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted
in. 
20Quite right, they were broken off for their
unbelief, but you (32)
stand by your faith. (33)
Do not be conceited, but fear; 
21for if God did not spare the natural branches,
He will not spare you, either. 
22Behold then the kindness and severity
of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's (34)
kindness, (35)
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise
you also (36)
will be cut off. 
23And they also, (37)
if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able
to graft them in again. 
24For if you were cut off from what is
by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a
cultivated olive tree, how much more will
these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? 
25For (38)
I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this (39)
mystery--so that you will not be (40)
wise in your own estimation--that a partial (41)
hardening has happened to Israel until the (42)
fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 
26and so all Israel will be saved; just
as it is written,
(43)
THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE
UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB. 27
(44)
THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
(45)
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS. 
28From the standpoint of the gospel they are (46)
enemies for your sake, but from the
standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for (47)
the sake of the fathers; 
29for the gifts and the (48)
calling of God (49)
are irrevocable.





-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carrolll Moore
Sent: Sunday,
 November 02, 2003 6:39 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something
To Ponder











- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]





Sent: 11/1/2003 9:45:57
PM 





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]
Something To Ponder











Galatians 3:29

And if [Rom 4:13; 1 Cor 3:23] you belong to Christ, then you
are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. 



Replacement theology is dangerously doctrinally incorrect. We
have not replaced Abraham or his descendants. We have been grafted into
them, and that only by Gods amazing grace. Izzy

Dean writes:

Izzy-To be in the promise one must come thru Christ whom was
thru Isaac-Here is the promise giving to Abraham, but to say that one inherits
the promise simply because they are descendents of Abraham is-in my
opinion-incorrect. The Jews are included only if they come thru Christ-if not
they are excluded from the promise and the covenant giving to Abraham. This is of
course referring to the heavenly promise-not the earthly promise of the land of
Israel-but at a later time they will also be excluded from the land as the
goats and the sheep are separated(If any still refuse to believe on his
appearing as God allows). To say this would not be Replacement Theology as many
Israelites believe in Christ and later when they cry of to Him-He will come and
the nation will be accepted into the promise as God chooses.



-Original Message-
On Behalf Of Carrolll Moore

The
children of the flesh are represented by Abraham and the children of

the
spirit are represented by Isaac-who we are grafted into the vine/olive

tree
by. Those of Abraham are cast out we are
grafted in.Look at Gal.4:21-31

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-02 Thread ShieldsFamily









Terry, How will you ever know if you are forbidden to study
those commandments to find out if you are really keeping the Law of Love? Izzy



-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003
3:26 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something
To Ponder




 
  
  
  Slade:
  
  
  
  
  
  Do you not think it possible that Jesus, when He gave
  these two commands, was telling you.If you keep these two, you will not
  have to remember all six hundred and some odd rules. If you keep these
  two, you do what is pleasing to the Father? 
  
  
  
  
  
  Terry
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Yeshua says the greatest commandment is to love
  
  
  God with all our being and the second command (like the
  first) is to love
  
  
  your neighbor as yourself. What He says thereafter is the
  hingepin of my
  
  
  walk with YHVH: Upon these two commandments hang the
  whole of the Torah and
  
  
  the prophets. To me, Yeshua is saying that each and
  every command is HOW we
  
  
  love God and love our neighbor (including our animal
  neighbors).
  
  
  
  
  
 
 
  
  
   









   
  
  
  
 









 IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here






image001.gif

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-02 Thread ShieldsFamily

Gary,  I don't get this point which you keep making.  How do you figure?
What is your scriptural proof? (specifically) Paul says that Abraham is the
Father of Israel, and ultimately of all Believers. Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 1:07 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

-- Bruce Woodford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[IOW..]scripture[..]teaches[..]that those who are
Christ's are [not] Israelites!

IOW (again:) :  The Ap. Paul's underlying NT point is that Abe is not an
Israelite; neither, then, is Abe's spiritually saved 'seed', in Christ.

gary ottoson :: poet235.com

The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-02 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Slade,

I wrote:Can you name even one person in scripture who was born a Gentile in 
the  flesh who is called by God an Israelite after conversion to Christ? 
If  you can, you will help me a lot on this because to date, I am unaware of 
any.

You responded:Joshua

I have found 5 different Joshuas in scripture:
-the son of Nun, who succeded Moses,
-the Bethshemite of I Sam.6:18,
-the governor of the city, II Kings 23:8,
-the son of Josedech the High Priest Haggai 1:1, and
-the High Priest, Zechariah 3:1.
To which of these were you referring? And how do you know that he was born a 
Gentile and became an Israelite?

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
_
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*   
http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought 
to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-02 Thread ttxpress


Then a Gentile is the 'father of Israel'; if it's important, now, to be an Israelite, 
one should move to Israel/change citizenship--to be an Israelite legalistically is not 
possible. 

In fact, Izzy, Israelites themselves are not sons of 'Abraham' on the legalistic basis 
that legalism, above, requires; though legalists and Israelites strive to keep it, 
they consistently violate the law of Moses. E.g., The US and Israel engage in 
political atrocities daily resulting in a widening mid-East conflict, not in JCs 
'peace'.

Consider it; while true Israelites are violating the law of Moses consistently, how 
can acquiring Israeli status have any bearing on spiritual matters involving those in 
Christ?  


gary ottoson * http://poet235.com

-- ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gary,  I don't get this point which you keep making.  How do you figure?
What is your scriptural proof? (specifically) Paul says that Abraham is the Father of 
Israel, and ultimately of all Believers. Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 1:07 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder


-- Bruce Woodford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[IOW..]scripture[..]teaches[..]that those who are
Christ's are [not] Israelites!

IOW (again:) :  The Ap. Paul's underlying NT point is that Abe is not an
Israelite; neither, then, is Abe's spiritually saved 'seed', in Christ.

gary ottoson :: poet235.com




The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.



--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.


The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-01 Thread Carrolll Moore

 [Original Message]
 From: Bruce Woodford [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 10/30/2003 8:48:15 PM
 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

 Dean, You wrote:Bro. Aren't we grafted into that vine? Romans 11:17
 ..and thou, being a wild olive tree,wert graffed in among them,and with
them 
 partakerst of the root... (KJV)
 In short I am a Child of Isaac as are you.

 Brother, are you not mixing your metaphors?  A vine is NOT an olive tree!

*The vine (Jesus Christ John15:5) and the election are the same as is the
olive tree-due to the fact that we are the
 partakers of the root and fatness of the olive tree. v.17
Roman 9:7..but in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
The children of the flesh are represented by Abraham and the children of
the spirit are represented by Isaac-who we are grafted into the vine/olive
tree by. Those of Abraham are cast out we are grafted in.Look at Gal.4:21-31

For it is written,That Abram had two sons,.. v.24 Which things are an
allegory: for these are the two covenants;...
v.30 So then brethren we are not children of the bondwomen ,but of the free.
The same vine- the same tree-the same promise-the same commandments.

1John 5:3 For this is the love of God,that we keep his commandments:and his
commandments are not grievous.
Matt.19:17...but if thou wilt enter into life keep the commandments.

 The Romans 11 does NOT teach that the olive tree is Israel, but rather
the 
 election.  See verses 5,7 and 28.

 As Gentiles who believe in Christ, we are grafted in to the election but
not 
 into Israel.

  *As Gentiles who believe in Christ we are grafted into the election that
is the promise giving to Israel thru Isaac unto Jacob (whom is Israel- the
son of  the promise-Gen.3:28 Thy name shall be no more Jacob, but
Israel...) which we are partakers of.

 Your brother in Christ,
 Bruce

 _
 Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online  
 http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-01 Thread Carrolll Moore

- Original Message - 
From: Slade Henson 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 10/31/2003 12:31:02 PM 
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Paul says, "Imitate me as I imitate Messiah." The two are sons of Israel.

shalom
slade
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: Terry Clifton 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, 30 October, 2003 19:59
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

The passage you are looking for is Lev.27:34. These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses "for the children of Israel".

If you are not an Israelite, they were not written for you. God says so! Believe HIM!

*But bro we are Israel- thru Isaac shall thy seed be called-Jacob's name was changed to Israel who was the seed of the free women -who are we. Gal.5:31 
We are not children of the bondwomen, but of the free.
Let me guess Once saved always saved right :-)

Terry

Dean writes-Pardon my interruption- but where does it say that God voided this commandment or left it up to our choice to retain it or to ignore or to even switch it to another day?Passage please.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-01 Thread Slade Henson




Upon these two commandments hang the whole of the Torah and the prophets... 
to me... does not mean "replace/supercede the whole of the Torah and the 
Prophets." I understand it as this is HOW we keep the two greatest 
commandments.

As far as the "six hundred and some odd rules..." have you counted the 
commandments in the New Testament? Dake has. Have you got access to a Dake's 
Annotated Bible? I think you'll be surprised.

shalom
slade
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Friday, 31 October, 2003 
16:25
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To 
  Ponder
  
  

  
Slade:

Do you not think it possible that Jesus, when He gave these two 
commands, was telling you."If you keep these two, you will not have to 
remember all six hundred and some odd rules. If you keep these 
two, you do what is pleasing to the Father?" 

Ask your fuzzy little neighbors. See what they say. 
That is, if you haven't sacrificed them to keep the law. 

Terry


Yeshua says the greatest 
commandment is to love
God with all our being and the second command (like the first) is 
to love
your neighbor as yourself. What He says thereafter is the hingepin 
of my
walk with YHVH: "Upon these two commandments hang the whole of the 
Torah and
the prophets." To me, Yeshua is saying that each and every command 
is HOW we
love God and love our neighbor (including our animal 
neighbors).

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-01 Thread Slade Henson




so true.
shalom

e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Friday, 31 October, 2003 
18:38
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To 
  Ponder
  
  
  Slade, You are correct in saying 
  that doing whatever is right in our own eyes is not doing what the Lord leads 
  you to do. I am not saying that whatever turns you on is what the Lord leads 
  you to do. I am saying that if the Lord (really) leads you to do 
  something, it will be scripturally correct. I am not going to argue with 
  folks who just want to argue the same old points repeatedly. And if they are 
  wrong, but still think it is what the Lord leads them to do, I am not going to 
  be able to convince them otherwise by arguing. I am willing to state 
  what I believe; I am willing to listen to what other people believe; and I am 
  ever ready to re-evaluate my position if necessary. However, I am not 
  willing to listen to folks who arent also listening to me. 
  Izzy
  
  -Original 
  Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  On Behalf Of Slade 
  HensonSent: 
  Friday, October 31, 
  2003 6:34 
  AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To 
  Ponder
  
  
  Izzy:
  
  I have an even more orthodox perspective which causes 
  problems (doctrinally) between me and the average Christian. I see the whole 
  of the commandments given to us by Moses as alive and well. There are some we 
  cannot do because we lost the Temple because of our 
  disobedience.
  
  
  
  You said, "I say you must do whatever the 
  Lord leads you to do." In response to that, I give the 
  following verse: Judges 21:25.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Michael 
  D: Can you see how this conflicts with your statement that a person has to do 
  what God tells him (conscience) re sabbath keeping? If God never voided the 
  Sabbath, then our conscience would not come into the picture, would it? It is 
  the fact that He voided it that makes it optional/conscience-based. Can you 
  agree with that? 
  
  
  
  A command is optional whether it is commanded or not 
  because we are beings created with free will (by the way, I do not want to 
  create a thread discussing the philosophy of free will vs. predestination). 
  Some consciences have been seared against the commandments (because of 
  judicial interpretations of Scripture) while some consciences are swayed to 
  keep the commandments.In either case, conscience comes into play; it 
  controls wither we obey or disregard the commandment. There is nothing in this 
  statement I can agree with. Are you a post-modern 
  thinker?
  
  
  
  shalom
  
  slade
  
  e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  

- Original Message - 


From: ShieldsFamily 


To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


Sent: 
Thursday, 30 October, 2003 16:57

    Subject: RE: 
[TruthTalk] Something To Ponder


Michael D, I respond to people 
who say We only need to keep 9 of the 10 Commandments by saying that God 
never cancelled Commandment #4. You need to give me the scripture showing 
that the Sabbath has been voided and cancelled by the Lord if you want to 
argue that point. If I am led by the Spirit to observe Sabbath, and 
scripture also says I should keep Sabbath, and scripture shows that Jesus 
and the disciples kept Sabbath, then what is your problem??? AGAIN, I 
say you must do whatever the Lord leads you to do. And dont bug me 
for doing what I must do. J
Izzy

-Original 
Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of michael 
douglasSent: Thursday, 
October 30, 2003 11:32 AMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To 
Ponder



ShieldsFamily 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
Michael 
D wrote : As you know Iz, I do not disagree with the above statement. It's 
the notion that this is a requirement for all believers that I, and others, 
are trying toshow is contrary to the word of 
God.

Izzy 
wrote:
Michael, You 
have to do whatever the Holy Spirit leads you to do. 

If you want 
to disregard the 4th commandment, that is between the two of you. 

If you dont 
think you have replaced Sabbath rest with Sunday rest, that is up to your 
own conscience. 
I must 
do what the Lord has put on my heart. 
Obviously, 
Michael, you are not heearing me.
Michael 
D: Iz, I think I am understanding you, but it does seem that somehow we are 
missing each other.Let me reiterate that I agree with youthat 
Sabbath keeping is a thing of conscience. Rest assured I have no problem 
with that whatsoever. 
You 
have said on different occasions, though, that you believe that everyone

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-01 Thread Judith H. Taylor




I haven't been able to follow this closely orponder what all of you 
have contributed
so please noone take offense.Isn't it true that ignorance 
isalso aform of knowledge?

Paul told the Galatians who had gone back to the ritual of keeping the 
law
that they had been bewitched, so what is new under the sun? Jesus 
said there
is just one way to the Father and that way is through Him.If there is 
another 
way by the law of Moses He would have mentioned it. The law is holy 
but was
given asa schoolmaster to bring one to Christ and in Him we find 
everything 
pertaining to life and godliness. 

The sabbath issue is addressedin Hebrews 4:9-11. We are to strive to 
enter into 
this rest - it doesnot referto attendinga public meeting 
place on a Saturday or 
a Sunday. The first principle of life in Christ is to repent from dead 
works so that 
we may serve the living God.

Grace and Peace,
Judy



On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 10:57:10 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  so true.
  shalom
  
  e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
ShieldsFamily 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: Friday, 31 October, 2003 
18:38
    Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To 
Ponder


Slade, You are correct in saying 
that doing whatever is right in our own eyes is not doing what the Lord 
leads you to do. I am not saying that whatever turns you on is what the Lord 
leads you to do. I am saying that if the Lord (really) leads you to do 
something, it will be scripturally correct. I am not going to argue 
with folks who just want to argue the same old points repeatedly. And if 
they are wrong, but still think it is what the Lord leads them to do, I am 
not going to be able to convince them otherwise by arguing. I am 
willing to state what I believe; I am willing to listen to what other people 
believe; and I am ever ready to re-evaluate my position if necessary. 
However, I am not willing to listen to folks who arent also listening to 
me. Izzy

-Original 
Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of Slade 
HensonSent: 
Friday, October 31, 
2003 6:34 
AMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To 
Ponder


Izzy:

I have an even more orthodox perspective which 
causes problems (doctrinally) between me and the average Christian. I see 
the whole of the commandments given to us by Moses as alive and well. There 
are some we cannot do because we lost the Temple because of our 
disobedience.



You said, "I say you must do whatever the 
Lord leads you to do." In response to that, I give 
the following verse: Judges 21:25.









Michael 
D: Can you see how this conflicts with your statement that a person has to 
do what God tells him (conscience) re sabbath keeping? If God never voided 
the Sabbath, then our conscience would not come into the picture, would it? 
It is the fact that He voided it that makes it optional/conscience-based. 
Can you agree with that? 



A command is optional whether it is commanded or not 
because we are beings created with free will (by the way, I do not want to 
create a thread discussing the philosophy of free will vs. predestination). 
Some consciences have been seared against the commandments (because of 
judicial interpretations of Scripture) while some consciences are swayed to 
keep the commandments.In either case, conscience comes into play; it 
controls wither we obey or disregard the commandment. There is nothing in 
this statement I can agree with. Are you a post-modern 
thinker?



shalom

slade

e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  
  - Original Message - 
  
  
  From: ShieldsFamily 
  
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  
  Sent: 
  Thursday, 30 October, 2003 16:57
      
  Subject: RE: 
  [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder
  
  
  Michael D, I respond to people 
  who say We only need to keep 9 of the 10 Commandments by saying that God 
  never cancelled Commandment #4. You need to give me the scripture showing 
  that the Sabbath has been voided and cancelled by the Lord if you want to 
  argue that point. If I am led by the Spirit to observe Sabbath, and 
  scripture also says I should keep Sabbath, and scripture shows that Jesus 
  and the disciples kept Sabbath, then what is your problem??? AGAIN, I 
  say you must do whatever the Lord leads you to do. And dont bug me 
  for doing what I must do. J
  Izzy
  
  -Original 
  Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-01 Thread Slade Henson




It's my belief that you, like many others, 
misinterpret Paul.

Paul never said keeping the law is equated to 
being bewitched. To indicate that merely keeping the Law of Moses can lead one 
to Eternal Life is to be wholly ignorant, deaf, and blind.

shalom
slade
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judith H. 
  Taylor 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Saturday, 01 November, 2003 
  11:39
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To 
  Ponder
  
  I haven't been able to follow this closely orponder what all of you 
  have contributed
  so please noone take offense.Isn't it true that ignorance 
  isalso aform of knowledge?
  
  Paul told the Galatians who had gone back to the ritual of keeping the 
  law
  that they had been bewitched, so what is new under the sun? Jesus 
  said there
  is just one way to the Father and that way is through Him.If there 
  is another 
  way by the law of Moses He would have mentioned it. The law is holy 
  but was
  given asa schoolmaster to bring one to Christ and in Him we find 
  everything 
  pertaining to life and godliness. 
  
  The sabbath issue is addressedin Hebrews 4:9-11. We are to strive 
  to enter into 
  this rest - it doesnot referto attendinga public 
  meeting place on a Saturday or 
  a Sunday. The first principle of life in Christ is to repent from dead 
  works so that 
  we may serve the living God.
  
  Grace and Peace,
  Judy
  
  
  
  On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 10:57:10 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
so true.
shalom

e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Friday, 31 October, 2003 
  18:38
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To 
  Ponder
  
  
  Slade, You are correct in 
  saying that doing whatever is right in our own eyes is not doing what the 
  Lord leads you to do. I am not saying that whatever turns you on is what 
  the Lord leads you to do. I am saying that if the Lord (really) 
  leads you to do something, it will be scripturally correct. I am not 
  going to argue with folks who just want to argue the same old points 
  repeatedly. And if they are wrong, but still think it is what the Lord 
  leads them to do, I am not going to be able to convince them otherwise by 
  arguing. I am willing to state what I believe; I am willing to 
  listen to what other people believe; and I am ever ready to re-evaluate my 
  position if necessary. However, I am not willing to listen to folks 
  who arent also listening to me. Izzy
  
  -Original 
  Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade HensonSent: Friday, October 
  31, 2003 6:34 
  AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To 
  Ponder
  
  
  Izzy:
  
  I have an even more orthodox perspective which 
  causes problems (doctrinally) between me and the average Christian. I see 
  the whole of the commandments given to us by Moses as alive and well. 
  There are some we cannot do because we lost the Temple because of our 
  disobedience.
  
  
  
  You said, "I say you must do whatever the 
  Lord leads you to do." In response to that, I give 
  the following verse: Judges 21:25.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Michael 
  D: Can you see how this conflicts with your statement that a person has to 
  do what God tells him (conscience) re sabbath keeping? If God never voided 
  the Sabbath, then our conscience would not come into the picture, would 
  it? It is the fact that He voided it that makes it 
  optional/conscience-based. Can you agree with that? 
  
  
  
  
  A command is optional whether it is commanded or 
  not because we are beings created with free will (by the way, I do not 
  want to create a thread discussing the philosophy of free will vs. 
  predestination). Some consciences have been seared against the 
  commandments (because of judicial interpretations of Scripture) while some 
  consciences are swayed to keep the commandments.In either case, 
  conscience comes into play; it controls wither we obey or disregard the 
  commandment. There is nothing in this statement I can agree with. Are you 
  a post-modern thinker?
  
  
  
  shalom
  
  slade
  
  e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  

- Original Message - 


From: ShieldsFamily 


To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


Sent: 
Thursday, 30 October, 2003 16:57
    
Subject: RE: 
[

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-01 Thread ShieldsFamily











Galatians 3:29

And if [Rom 4:13; 1 Cor 3:23] you
belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.




Replacement theology is dangerously doctrinally incorrect. We
have not replaced Abraham or his descendants. We have been grafted into them,
and that only by Gods amazing grace. Izzy



-Original
Message-
On Behalf Of Carrolll Moore



The
children of the flesh are represented by Abraham and the children of

the
spirit are represented by Isaac-who we are grafted into the vine/olive

tree
by. Those of Abraham are cast out we are
grafted in.Look at Gal.4:21-31

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-01 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dean,

When I wrote:Brother, are you not mixing your metaphors? A vine is NOT an
olive tree!...

You responded:*The vine (Jesus Christ John15:5) and the election are the
same as is the olive tree-due to the fact that we are the partakers of the
root and fatness of the olive tree. v.17

These statements are totally unrelated by scripture! When the Spirit uses
distinct terms, He intends distinct meanings.

You continued:Roman 9:7..but in Isaac shall thy seed be called. The
children of the flesh are represented by Abraham and the children of the
spirit are represented by Isaac-who we are grafted into the vine/olive tree
by. Those of Abraham are cast out we are grafted in.Look at Gal.4:21-31

Dean, you really need to pay attention to the text! The contrast of
Galatians 4 is not between TWO MEN (Abraham and Isaac), but rather between
TWO WOMEN (Hagar and Sarah) and their sons (Ishmael and Isaac)!

Nor does Abraham represent the children of the flesh who are cast out! Both
Ishmael and Isaac were sons of Abraham! Rather Galatians 3:29 teaches us
that, If ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to
the promise.

Further, you quoted bits and pieces of your text: For it is written,That
Abram had two sons,.. v.24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the
two covenants;...v.30 So then brethren we are not children of the bondwomen
,but of the free.

Then you made an unsubstantiated claim:The same vine- the same tree-the
same promise-the same commandments.

You would have been better to read and quote the whole text including
Galatians 4:23, ALL of v.24 and verses 25-31! None of which speak of a
vine, an olive tree or commandments!!!

Then you quoted two other texts which for the life of me I cannot see how
they have any bearing on the discussion of the vine and the olive tree!

1John 5:3 For this is the love of God,that we keep his commandments:and his
commandments are not grievous.
Matt.19:17...but if thou wilt enter into life keep the commandments.

I had written:Romans 11 does NOT teach that the olive tree is Israel, but
rather the election. See verses 5,7 and 28. As Gentiles who believe in
Christ, we are grafted in to the election but not into Israel.

You responded*As Gentiles who believe in Christ we are grafted into the
election that is the promise giving to Israel thru Isaac unto Jacob (whom is
Israel- the son of the promise-Gen.3:28 Thy name shall be no more Jacob,
but Israel...) which we are partakers of.

Dear Dean, you really had my head spinning on this one! Gen 3 has no verse
28! I finally realized you meant 32:28 (Jacob's name changed to Israel). But
there is no expression son of promise that I can find in scripture! But
in Gal.4:28 and 29 we read: Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the
children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted
him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

As far as I can tell from scripture, all Israelites became Israelites by
natural fleshly birth. (Can you name anyone in scripture who is called an
Israelite who was not born an Israelite in the flesh?) But not all flesh
born Israelites who are of Israel are Israel (prince of God)! (Romans
9:6) Instead, as the Lord Jesus plainly declared of some of them, Ye are
of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do. John
8:44

Can you name even one person in scripture who was born a Gentile in the
flesh who is called by God an Israelite after conversion to Christ? If
you can, you will help me a lot on this because to date, I am unaware of any
such Israelite!

I am willing to learn from clear scriptural statements, but refuse
assumptions which have no scriptural basis at all.

Bruce

_
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/featurespgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-01 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Izzy,

In response to Dean's post, you wrote:Galatians 3:29 And if [Rom 4:13; 1
Cor 3:23] you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs
according to promise.

Replacement theology is dangerously doctrinally incorrect. We have not
replaced Abraham or his descendants. We have been grafted into them, and
that only by God's amazing grace.

Dear sister, replacement theology, as I understand, is the belief that
Israel (the nation),which was always to be quite distinct from all other
nations, has been replaced by the church, which is composed of believers
from every kindred and tongue and nation. This certainly is incorrect,
unscriptural and unsound doctrine!

Scripture clearly distinguishes between Israel, the nations (Gentiles), and
the saints in the old covenant scriptures. So too, the Jew, the Gentile and
the church of God (I Cor.10:32) are clearly distinguished in the new! Jews
never become Gentiles, Gentiles never become Jews and the church of God
never becomes Jewish or Gentile, but rather is the company in which the
barriers and enmity between the two are done away in Christ! See Ephesians
2 and 3.

Up to and including Christ, ALL of Abraham's seed were descendants by
physical birth. But Christ had no physical descendents, but rather all of
the children of God are born of the Spirit (John 3). That is why those who
are Christ's are ABRAHAM'S SEED. But scripture never ever teaches (as far
as I know) that those who are Christ's are Israelites!

I have been wrong many times and have appreciated being corrected by
scriptural statements which others have brought to my attention. If anything
I have written here is in error or contrary to clear scriptural statements
of which you are aware, I will thank you to correct me and will gladly
acknowledge my error.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
_
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-31 Thread ShieldsFamily















David
M wrote:

I
have heard the Lord tell me to keep the Sabbath, and I do keep it. I

believe
in keeping the Sabbath, but as Hebrews 4 teaches us, the true

Sabbath
is what we ought to keep and not the traditions of men.



David, if you keep the Sabbath, why do you object to others
doing it? What do you mean, precisely, by how you keep the Sabbath?
Is this just a metaphorical, spiritualized version of keeping the
Sabbath? Izzy

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-31 Thread Slade Henson




Paul says, "Imitate me as I imitate Messiah." 
The two are sons of Israel.

shalom
slade
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Thursday, 30 October, 2003 
  19:59
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To 
  Ponder
  
  
  
The passage you are looking for 
is Lev.27:34. These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses 
"for the children of Israel".

If you are not an 
Israelite, they were not written for you. God says so! Believe 
HIM!

Terry




  
  
  
  
  Dean 
  writes-Pardon my interruption- but where does it say that God voided this 
  commandment or left it up to our choice to retain it or to ignore or to 
  even switch it to another day?Passage 
  please.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-31 Thread Slade Henson




Izzy:
I have an even more orthodox perspective which 
causes problems (doctrinally) between me and the average Christian. I see the 
whole of the commandments given to us by Moses as alive and well. There are some 
we cannot do because we lost the Temple because of our 
disobedience.

You said, "I say you must do whatever the Lord leads you to 
do." In response to that, I 
give the following verse: Judges 21:25.





Michael 
D: Can you see how this conflicts with your statement that a person has to do 
what God tells him (conscience) re sabbath keeping? If God never voided the 
Sabbath, then our conscience would not come into the picture, would it? It is 
the fact that He voided it that makes it optional/conscience-based. Can you 
agree with that? 

A command is optional whether it is commanded 
or not because we are beings created with free will (by the way, I do not want 
to create a thread discussing the philosophy of free will vs. predestination). 
Some consciences have been seared against the commandments (because of judicial 
interpretations of Scripture) while some consciences are swayed to keep the 
commandments.In either case, conscience comes into play; it controls 
wither we obey or disregard the commandment. There is nothing in this statement 
I can agree with. Are you a post-modern thinker?

shalom
slade
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Thursday, 30 October, 2003 
  16:57
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To 
  Ponder
  
  
  Michael D, I respond to people who 
  say We only need to keep 9 of the 10 Commandments by saying that God never 
  cancelled Commandment #4. You need to give me the scripture showing that the 
  Sabbath has been voided and cancelled by the Lord if you want to argue that 
  point. If I am led by the Spirit to observe Sabbath, and scripture also 
  says I should keep Sabbath, and scripture shows that Jesus and the disciples 
  kept Sabbath, then what is your problem??? AGAIN, I say you must do 
  whatever the Lord leads you to do. And dont bug me for doing what I 
  must do. J
  Izzy
  
  -Original 
  Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  On Behalf Of michael 
  douglasSent: Thursday, 
  October 30, 2003 11:32 AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To 
  Ponder
  
  
  
  ShieldsFamily 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  Michael 
  D wrote : As you know Iz, I do not disagree with the above statement. It's the 
  notion that this is a requirement for all believers that I, and others, are 
  trying toshow is contrary to the word of 
  God.
  
  Izzy 
  wrote:
  Michael, You 
  have to do whatever the Holy Spirit leads you to do. 
  
  If you want to 
  disregard the 4th commandment, that is between the two of you. 
  
  If you dont 
  think you have replaced Sabbath rest with Sunday rest, that is up to your own 
  conscience. 
  I must do 
  what the Lord has put on my heart. 
  Obviously, 
  Michael, you are not heearing me.
  Michael 
  D: Iz, I think I am understanding you, but it does seem that somehow we are 
  missing each other.Let me reiterate that I agree with youthat 
  Sabbath keeping is a thing of conscience. Rest assured I have no problem with 
  that whatsoever. 
  You 
  have said on different occasions, though, that you believe that everyone needs 
  to keep the sabbath commandment along with the other nine (if I remember 
  correctly). 
  Others 
  on TT have emphasized this as well. That is what I am trying to indicate is 
  contradicted by the scripture that declares that the Holy Ghost said don't 
  command the Gentiles to keep the law. Can you understand the point I am trying 
  to make, Izzy?
  Izzy 
  Posted:
  Just 
  as satan has blinded the Jews to Messiah Yeshua, satan has blinded the church 
  to Torahs eternal truths. Repentance for our ignorance and unbelief is needed 
  on both sides. Then Israel will be restored, and Messiah will return. 
  Maranatha!!! 
  Izzy 
  wrote: Before you have a stroke, let me re-iterate: We are not saved by 
  obedience to Torah. We are not saved by abstinence from sin. We 
  are saved only by faith in the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus! But we express 
  our faith through obedience to His Word, as faith without works is dead. 
  
  The 
  more God leads us into a love of His Word, the more blessed we are! 
  Conversely, the more one distains His word, the more one expresses 
  unbelief/ignorance. 
  In 
  reading your many posts on this topic, you tend to fluctuate between requiring 
  obedience to the Sabbath commandment as part of God's word and law, 
  and obedience to one's conscience re the Sabbath. (See 
  below).
  Izzy
  
  
  Michael, 
  
  Those who attempt to obtain 
  salvation by the obeying the Law are under the law. I am not. I 
  do, however, choose to be obedient to the commandment of resting on the 
  Sa

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-31 Thread Terry Clifton







Slade:

Do you not think it possible that Jesus, when He gave these two commands, was telling you."If you keep these two, you will not have to remember all six hundred and some odd rules. If you keep these two, you do what is pleasing to the Father?" 

Ask your fuzzy little neighbors. See what they say. That is, if you haven't sacrificed them to keep the law. 

Terry


Yeshua says the greatest commandment is to love
God with all our being and the second command (like the first) is to love
your neighbor as yourself. What He says thereafter is the hingepin of my
walk with YHVH: "Upon these two commandments hang the whole of the Torah and
the prophets." To me, Yeshua is saying that each and every command is HOW we
love God and love our neighbor (including our animal neighbors).








 IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-31 Thread michael douglas

Slade wrote:
I understand where you're coming from, Izzy. The Text tells us two things: we cannot have righteousness without faith, but the Text also says the commandments of God are our righteousness.

Michael D: Slade, I say thisnot in contention, but out of concern. It seems that you do not consider some clear statements in the NT in arriving at your position re the law. Paul Says In Romans 3:
19. Now we know that what things soever the law saith it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Now, I know that we all know what what things soever means. I would like it if you would offer an explanation ofwhat you understand this verse to be saying.

I love dichotomies like this because... frankly... there ARE no dichotomies if we practice proper hermeneutics. Unfortunately, most Biblical scholars are too lazy... or they don't like what they see so they skew the results.

You asked "Why is this a problem with anybody?"

Realistically the answer could be simply that divergent thinking in Christianity is generally looked down on (cultic ideals, you know...)
Theother possibility (the one that will get me razed here I'm sure) is that if you believe in keeping the commandments of God and you still have faith in Yeshua... perhaps you're right and their walk is lacking something. Living in a Capitalistic society has given rise to what I call "greatest common denomination." Under this ideal, the idea espoused by the most people must be the right one, and if you can convince more people to believe in your doctrine (no matter how divergent) than who disbelieve, the doctrine is correct. We see this all the time with "testimonial commercials" on television and radio. You, Izzy, have a divergent doctrine, so it must be squashed, otherwise its existence threatens a preconceived notion or existing doctrine.

shalom

slade

Michael D:What an unfortunate offering. Slade, you are making it sound as though because you and Izzy have 'divergent' doctrine(s) those who disagree (inspite of a plethora of scriptural evidence to support their position) are rejecting divergence just because it is divergent. I find this to be very unfortunate, indeed. I do say, there are folks who labour hard here to present cogent positions in their posts. I do wonder how they feel about your indictment...Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-31 Thread ShieldsFamily










Slade, You are correct in saying that doing whatever is
right in our own eyes is not doing what the Lord leads you to do. I am not
saying that whatever turns you on is what the Lord leads you to do. I am
saying that if the Lord (really) leads you to do something, it will be
scripturally correct. I am not going to argue with folks who just want to
argue the same old points repeatedly. And if they are wrong, but still think it
is what the Lord leads them to do, I am not going to be able to convince them
otherwise by arguing. I am willing to state what I believe; I am willing
to listen to what other people believe; and I am ever ready to re-evaluate my
position if necessary. However, I am not willing to listen to folks who
arent also listening to me. Izzy



-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson
Sent: Friday, October
 31, 2003 6:34 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something
To Ponder





Izzy:





I have an even more orthodox perspective which causes problems
(doctrinally) between me and the average Christian. I see the whole of the
commandments given to us by Moses as alive and well. There are some we cannot
do because we lost the Temple because of our disobedience.











You said, I say you must do whatever the Lord
leads you to do. In response to that, I give the
following verse: Judges 21:25.



























Michael
D: Can you see how this conflicts with your statement that a person has to do
what God tells him (conscience) re sabbath keeping? If God never voided the
Sabbath, then our conscience would not come into the picture, would it? It is
the fact that He voided it that makes it optional/conscience-based. Can you
agree with that? 











A command is optional whether it is commanded or not because we are
beings created with free will (by the way, I do not want to create a thread
discussing the philosophy of free will vs. predestination). Some consciences
have been seared against the commandments (because of judicial interpretations
of Scripture) while some consciences are swayed to keep the
commandments.In either case, conscience comes into play; it controls wither
we obey or disregard the commandment. There is nothing in this statement I can
agree with. Are you a post-modern thinker?











shalom





slade






e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]








- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Sent: Thursday, 30
October, 2003 16:57





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]
Something To Ponder









Michael D, I respond to people who say We only need
to keep 9 of the 10 Commandments by saying that God never cancelled
Commandment #4. You need to give me the scripture showing that the Sabbath has
been voided and cancelled by the Lord if you want to argue that point. If
I am led by the Spirit to observe Sabbath, and scripture also says I should
keep Sabbath, and scripture shows that Jesus and the disciples kept Sabbath,
then what is your problem??? AGAIN, I say you must do whatever the Lord
leads you to do. And dont bug me for doing what I must do. J

Izzy



-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of michael douglas
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003
11:32 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something
To Ponder









ShieldsFamily
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

Michael D wrote : As you know Iz, I do not disagree with the above
statement. It's the notion that this is a requirement for all believers that I,
and others, are trying toshow is contrary to the word of God.



Izzy wrote:

Michael, You have to do whatever the Holy
Spirit leads you to do. 

If you want to disregard the 4th
commandment, that is between the two of you. 

If you dont think you have replaced
Sabbath rest with Sunday rest, that is up to your own conscience. 

I must do what the Lord has put on my
heart. 

Obviously, Michael, you are not
heearing me.

Michael D: Iz, I think I am understanding you, but it does seem that
somehow we are missing each other.Let me reiterate that I agree with
youthat Sabbath keeping is a thing of conscience. Rest assured I have no
problem with that whatsoever. 

You have said on different occasions, though, that you believe that
everyone needs to keep the sabbath commandment along with the other nine (if I
remember correctly). Others on TT have emphasized this as well. That
is what I am trying to indicate is contradicted by the scripture that declares
that the Holy Ghost said don't command the Gentiles to keep the law. Can you
understand the point I am trying to make, Izzy?

Izzy
Posted:

Just as satan has blinded the Jews to Messiah Yeshua, satan has blinded
the church to Torahs eternal truths. Repentance for our ignorance and
unbelief is needed on both sides. Then Israel will be restored, and
Messiah will return. Maranatha!!! 

Izzy wrote: Before you have a stroke

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-30 Thread michael douglas

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Michael D wrote : As you know Iz, I do not disagree with the above statement. It's the notion that this is a requirement for all believers that I, and others, are trying toshow is contrary to the word of God.

Izzy wrote:
Michael, You have to do whatever the Holy Spirit leads you to do.
If you want to disregard the 4th commandment, that is between the two of you.
If you dont think you have replaced Sabbath rest with Sunday rest, that is up to your own conscience.
I must do what the Lord has put on my heart.
Obviously, Michael, you are not heearing me.
Michael D: Iz, I think I am understanding you, but it does seem that somehow we are missing each other.Let me reiterate that I agree with youthat Sabbath keeping is a thing of conscience. Rest assured I have no problem with that whatsoever.
You have said on different occasions, though, that you believe that everyone needs to keep the sabbath commandment along with the other nine (if I remember correctly). Others on TT have emphasized this as well. That is what I am trying to indicate is contradicted by the scripture that declares that the Holy Ghost said don't command the Gentiles to keep the law. Can you understand the point I am trying to make, Izzy?
Izzy Posted:
Just as satan has blinded the Jews to Messiah Yeshua, satan has blinded the church to Torahs eternal truths. Repentance for our ignorance and unbelief is needed on both sides. Then Israel will be restored, and Messiah will return. Maranatha!!!
Izzy wrote: Before you have a stroke, let me re-iterate: We are not saved by obedience to Torah. We are not saved by abstinence from sin. We are saved only by faith in the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus! But we express our faith through obedience to His Word, as faith without works is dead.
The more God leads us into a love of His Word, the more blessed we are! Conversely, the more one distains His word, the more one expresses unbelief/ignorance.
In reading your many posts on this topic, you tend to fluctuate between requiring obedience to the Sabbath commandment as part of God's word and law, and obedience to one's conscience re the Sabbath. (See below).
Izzy

Michael,

Michael D: Can you see how this conflicts with your statement that a person has to do what God tells him (conscience) re sabbath keeping? If God never voided the Sabbath, then our conscience would not come into the picture, would it? It is the fact that He voided it that makes it optional/conscience-based. Can you agree with that? Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-30 Thread Carrolll Moore

- Original Message - 
From: michael douglas 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 10/30/2003 12:32:07 PM 
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

Michael D wrote : As you know Iz, I do not disagree with the above statement. It's the notion that this is a requirement for all believers that I, and others, are trying toshow is contrary to the word of God.

Izzy wrote:
Michael, You have to do whatever the Holy Spirit leads you to do. 
If you want to disregard the 4th commandment, that is between the two of you. 
If you dont think you have replaced Sabbath rest with Sunday rest, that is up to your own conscience. 
I must do what the Lord has put on my heart. 
Obviously, Michael, you are not heearing me.
Michael D: Iz, I think I am understanding you, but it does seem that somehow we are missing each other.Let me reiterate that I agree with youthat Sabbath keeping is a thing of conscience. Rest assured I have no problem with that whatsoever. 
You have said on different occasions, though, that you believe that everyone needs to keep the sabbath commandment along with the other nine (if I remember correctly). Others on TT have emphasized this as well. That is what I am trying to indicate is contradicted by the scripture that declares that the Holy Ghost said don't command the Gentiles to keep the law. Can you understand the point I am trying to make, Izzy?
Izzy Posted:
Just as satan has blinded the Jews to Messiah Yeshua, satan has blinded the church to Torahs eternal truths. Repentance for our ignorance and unbelief is needed on both sides. Then Israel will be restored, and Messiah will return. Maranatha!!! 
Izzy wrote: Before you have a stroke, let me re-iterate: We are not saved by obedience to Torah. We are not saved by abstinence from sin. We are saved only by faith in the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus! But we express our faith through obedience to His Word, as faith without works is dead. 
The more God leads us into a love of His Word, the more blessed we are! Conversely, the more one distains His word, the more one expresses unbelief/ignorance. 
In reading your many posts on this topic, you tend to fluctuate between requiring obedience to the Sabbath commandment as part of God's word and law, and obedience to one's conscience re the Sabbath. (See below).
Izzy

Michael, 

Those who attempt to obtain salvation by the obeying the Law are under the law. I am not. I do, however, choose to be obedient to the commandment of resting on the Sabbath. God never voided the Sabbath. 

Michael D: Can you see how this conflicts with your statement that a person has to do what God tells him (conscience) re sabbath keeping? If God never voided the Sabbath, then our conscience would not come into the picture, would it? It is the fact that He voided it that makes it optional/conscience-based. Can you agree with that?

Dean writes-Pardon my interruption- but where does it say that God voided this commandment or left it up to our choice to retain it or to ignore or to even switch it to another day?Passage please.
 JD-Maybe this site will replace the Holy Club.

Want to chat instantly with your online friends?Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-30 Thread ShieldsFamily









Michael D, I respond to people who say We only need
to keep 9 of the 10 Commandments by saying that God never cancelled
Commandment #4. You need to give me the scripture showing that the Sabbath has
been voided and cancelled by the Lord if you want to argue that point. If
I am led by the Spirit to observe Sabbath, and scripture also says I should keep
Sabbath, and scripture shows that Jesus and the disciples kept Sabbath, then
what is your problem??? AGAIN, I say you must do whatever the Lord leads
you to do. And dont bug me for doing what I must do. J

Izzy



-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of michael douglas
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003
11:32 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something
To Ponder









ShieldsFamily
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

Michael D wrote : As you know Iz, I do not disagree with the above
statement. It's the notion that this is a requirement for all believers that I,
and others, are trying toshow is contrary to the word of God.



Izzy wrote:

Michael, You have to do whatever the Holy
Spirit leads you to do. 

If you want to disregard the 4th
commandment, that is between the two of you. 

If you dont think you have replaced
Sabbath rest with Sunday rest, that is up to your own conscience. 

I must do what the Lord has put on my
heart. 

Obviously, Michael, you are not
heearing me.

Michael D: Iz, I think I am understanding you, but it does seem that
somehow we are missing each other.Let me reiterate that I agree with
youthat Sabbath keeping is a thing of conscience. Rest assured I have no
problem with that whatsoever. 

You have said on different occasions, though, that you believe that
everyone needs to keep the sabbath commandment along with the other nine (if I
remember correctly). Others on TT have emphasized this as well. That
is what I am trying to indicate is contradicted by the scripture that declares
that the Holy Ghost said don't command the Gentiles to keep the law. Can you understand
the point I am trying to make, Izzy?

Izzy
Posted:

Just as satan has blinded the Jews to Messiah Yeshua, satan has blinded
the church to Torahs eternal truths. Repentance for our ignorance and
unbelief is needed on both sides. Then Israel will be restored, and
Messiah will return. Maranatha!!! 

Izzy wrote: Before you have a stroke, let me re-iterate: We are not saved
by obedience to Torah. We are not saved by abstinence from sin. We
are saved only by faith in the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus! But we express our
faith through obedience to His Word, as faith without works is dead. 

The more God leads us into a love of His Word, the more blessed we are!
Conversely, the more one distains His word, the more one expresses
unbelief/ignorance. 

In reading your many posts on this topic, you tend to fluctuate between
requiring obedience to the Sabbath commandment as part of God's word and
law, and obedience to one's conscience re the Sabbath. (See below).

Izzy





Michael, 



Those who attempt to obtain salvation by the obeying the Law
are under the law. I am not. I do, however, choose to
be obedient to the commandment of resting on the Sabbath. God
never voided the Sabbath. 



Michael
D: Can you see how this conflicts with your statement that a person has to do
what God tells him (conscience) re sabbath keeping? If God never voided the
Sabbath, then our conscience would not come into the picture, would it? It is
the fact that He voided it that makes it optional/conscience-based. Can you
agree with that? 















Want to chat instantly with your online friends?Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-30 Thread ShieldsFamily











Dean, Whats the inside jokewhat is the Holy
Club? Izzy











Dean writes-Pardon my
interruption- but where does it say that God voided this commandment or left it
up to our choice to retain it or to ignore or to even switch it to another
day?Passage please.

 JD-Maybe this
site will replace the Holy Club.

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-30 Thread ShieldsFamily













-Original
Message-
Notice how Paul says that the law has DOMINION over a man as long as he

lives.
Now he tries to explain a way for us to die that we should no

longer
be married to the law and be under its dominion, but rather now

we
can be married to Christ. Do you see it in this passage? We cannot

be
married to Christ unless we are divorced from the law. Do you see

that
in this passage?



David, I see being divorced from the law as not
relying upon the law to get (or stay) saved. I do not see it as license to disregard the law
and live in rebellion to the law. It seems that you can agree to that as
long as Gods law is considered some foggy, ethereal, touchy-feely (and
unwritten) thing all about Luv, luv, luv. J
You dont want it to include
the literal law for some reason, and yet you say that you believe in keeping
the literal law by obeying a higher law. Am I the only one that this
makes NO sense to? Youve learned Geometry and Algebra, but thrown away
basic math again. Izzy

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-30 Thread Carrolll Moore

- Original Message - 
From: ShieldsFamily 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 10/30/2003 5:00:01 PM 
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Dean, Whats the inside jokewhat is the Holy Club? Izzy

Dean writes-Pardon my interruption- but where does it say that God voided this commandment or left it up to our choice to retain it or to ignore or to even switch it to another day?Passage please.
 JD-Maybe this site will replace the Holy Club.
Hello SisterIzzy -The Holy Club was a Wesleyan Discussion group that I seemed to have destroyed in a debate that almost "bleed" over into this list. The Topic was Killing abortion Doctors and the intensity of the debate wasin that the group we debated are killers that Paul Hill and EricRoudouf are/were a part of-called the Army of God (AOG)-this debate is still going on but to join in will most likely place you on their hit list that involve Jesuit priests and other extremists. David Miller was placed on their list as were other friends of mine-due to the fact that he/they stood up and rebuked this as "Demon Doctrine". He stood well.JD was on the Holy Club list that I involved-and I wanted to try and undo the damage I caused as the list was swallowed in the sheer mass of this debate.
Nowback to the topic-You are right about the fourth commandment-it was written in stone for all time and is not if to man to change and not a choice- here is the passage to back my statement up.
Matt.5:18... ,Till heaven and earth pass,one jot or one tittle,shall in no wise pass from the law,till all be fulfilled.
All is not fulfilled as Jesus is yet to come and the Earth is not yet burnt with fervent heat..

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-30 Thread ShieldsFamily









Dean, Wowinclude me out of the Holy
Club! Thanks for the input. Id like to hear what David M.
says about it, as well as others. Izzy



-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carrolll Moore
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003
4:53 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something
To Ponder

























- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]





Sent: 10/30/2003 5:00:01
PM 





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]
Something To Ponder











Dean, Whats the inside jokewhat is the
Holy Club? Izzy











Dean writes-Pardon my
interruption- but where does it say that God voided this commandment or left it
up to our choice to retain it or to ignore or to even switch it to another
day?Passage please.

 JD-Maybe this
site will replace the Holy Club.

Hello SisterIzzy -The Holy Club was a Wesleyan Discussion
group that I seemed to have destroyed in a debate that almost bleed
over into this list. The Topic was Killing abortion Doctors and the intensity
of the debate wasin that the group we debated are killers that Paul
Hill and EricRoudouf are/were a part of-called the Army of God (AOG)-this
debate is still going on but to join in will most likely place you on their hit
list that involve Jesuit priests and other extremists. David Miller was placed
on their list as were other friends of mine-due to the fact that he/they stood
up and rebuked this as Demon Doctrine. He stood well.JD was
on the Holy Club list that I involved-and I wanted to try and undo the
damage I caused as the list was swallowed in the sheer mass of this debate.

Nowback to the
topic-You are right about the fourth commandment-it was written in stone for
all time and is not if to man to change and not a choice- here is the
passage to back my statement up.

Matt.5:18...
,Till heaven and earth pass,one jot or one tittle,shall in no wise pass from
the law,till all be fulfilled.

All is not fulfilled
as Jesus is yet to come and the Earth is not yet burnt with fervent heat..

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-30 Thread Terry Clifton






  The passage you are looking for is 
  Lev.27:34. These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses 
  "for the children of Israel".
  
  If you are not an Israelite, 
  they were not written for you. God says so! Believe 
  HIM!
  
  Terry
  
  
  
  




Dean 
writes-Pardon my interruption- but where does it say that God voided this 
commandment or left it up to our choice to retain it or to ignore or to even 
switch it to another day?Passage please.

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-30 Thread Carrolll Moore

- Original Message - 
From: ShieldsFamily 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 10/30/2003 7:51:33 PM 
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Dean, Wowinclude me out of the Holy Club! Thanks for the input. Id like to hear what David M. says about it, as well as others. Izzy

Sister-I don't mean to confuse you,but the Holy Club wasn't a part of the debate-but the debate went onto their site and overwhelmed that site-The HC is a group of Wesleyan professors who adheres to the teachings of J. Wesley ( Which I adhere to). This other debate has now moved to D.Millers debate site-but as they practice terrorims-David's advice to me was to leave your guy out-which is also my advice-stay out of it. They will call and threaten your family and most likely follow thru with the threat.But let the Holy Spirit do the leading-but make sure it is the Holy Spirit and not you.

-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carrolll MooreSent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 4:53 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

- Original Message - 

From: ShieldsFamily 

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: 10/30/2003 5:00:01 PM 

Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Dean, Whats the inside jokewhat is the Holy Club? Izzy

Dean writes-Pardon my interruption- but where does it say that God voided this commandment or left it up to our choice to retain it or to ignore or to even switch it to another day?Passage please.
 JD-Maybe this site will replace the Holy Club.
Hello SisterIzzy -The Holy Club was a Wesleyan Discussion group that I seemed to have destroyed in a debate that almost "bleed" over into this list. The Topic was Killing abortion Doctors and the intensity of the debate wasin that the group we debated are killers that Paul Hill and EricRoudouf are/were a part of-called the Army of God (AOG)-this debate is still going on but to join in will most likely place you on their hit list that involve Jesuit priests and other extremists. David Miller was placed on their list as were other friends of mine-due to the fact that he/they stood up and rebuked this as "Demon Doctrine". He stood well.JD was on the Holy Club list that I involved-and I wanted to try and undo the damage I cau
sed as the list was swallowed in the sheer mass of this debate.
Nowback to the topic-You are right about the fourth commandment-it was written in stone for all time and is not if to man to change and not a choice- here is the passage to back my statement up.
Matt.5:18... ,Till heaven and earth pass,one jot or one tittle,shall in no wise pass from the law,till all be fulfilled.
All is not fulfilled as Jesus is yet to come and the Earth is not yet burnt with fervent heat..

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-30 Thread Carrolll Moore

- Original Message - 
From: Terry Clifton 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 10/30/2003 7:55:02 PM 
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

The passage you are looking for is Lev.27:34. These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses "for the children of Israel".

If you are not an Israelite, they were not written for you. God says so! Believe HIM!

Terry
Dean writes:

Bro. Aren't we grafted into that vine?
Romans 11:17
..and thou, being a wild olive tree,wert graffed in among them,and with them partakerst of the root... (KJV)
In short I am a Child ofIsaac as are you.

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-29 Thread ShieldsFamily










Slade, I agree that one cannot embrace Christian faith
without being able to embrace the tension of paradox, with which it is replete.
Author M. Scott Peck (The Road Less
Traveled, People of the Lie) said that he could never have become a
Believer if not for the fact that he first became Buddhist, and thereby learned
to accept paradox. Izzy



-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003
4:33 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something
To Ponder





I understand where you're coming from, Izzy. The Text tells us two
things: we cannot have righteousness without faith, but the Text also says the
commandments of God are our righteousness.











I love dichotomies like this because... frankly... there ARE no
dichotomies if we practice proper hermeneutics. Unfortunately, most Biblical
scholars are too lazy... or they don't like what they see so they skew the
results.









You asked Why is this a problem with anybody?


 Realistically the answer could be simply that divergent
 thinking in Christianity is generally looked down on (cultic ideals, you
 know...) 
 Theother possibility (the one that will get
 me razed here I'm sure) is that if you believe in keeping the commandments
 of God and you still have faith in Yeshua... perhaps you're right and
 their walk is lacking something. Living in a Capitalistic society has
 given rise to what I call greatest common denomination. Under
 this ideal, the idea espoused by the most people must be the right one,
 and if you can convince more people to believe in your doctrine (no matter
 how divergent) than who disbelieve, the doctrine is correct. We see this
 all the time with testimonial commercials on television and
 radio. You, Izzy, have a divergent doctrine, so it must be squashed, otherwise
 its existence threatens a preconceived notion or existing doctrine.




shalom





slade






e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






- Original Message - 



From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]





To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]





Sent: Monday, 27 October, 2003 13:35





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder











David,

We cannot be righteous without faith. Agreed. But if the Lord wants
us to
obey His commandments, and we don't, then our righteousness is lacking in
that area, no matter how great we think our faith is. Then we are still
unbelieving and disobedient in that area. It takes faith to believe His
word is still true, it takes faith to believe that we can obey, and then do
it. None of that is possible without Jesus. He sets the sinner free--from
sin (and its penalty), but not from disobedience. It's not about earning
brownie points in heaven. It's about joyfully doing what is right in
God's
eyes, because we are no longer under bondage to sin. Why is this a problem
with anybody?

You wrote This righteousness that comes through faith is the
righteousness
of Jesus Christ. What, exactly, do you mean by that? That
disobeying the
commandments is righteous if only you believe in Jesus? Even the demons
believe in Jesus. 
Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 9:35 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Izzy wrote:
 It just occurred to me that you are implying that the 
 Lord does not punish rebellion, nor reward obedience, 
 among Believers. Is that what you are saying? Or are 
 you saying that He just does not want us to obey His
 commandments any more?

I'm saying neither. The righteousness that comes through faith is
perfect. Not every Christian has experienced this kind of righteousness
yet, but it is available to those who believe. This righteousness that
comes through faith is the righteousness of Jesus Christ. You can't be
any more righteous than that. Therefore, obedience to the law does not
earn such a believer any rewards or benefits with God whatsoever. The
believer who has obtained right standing with God through faith cannot
become more favored with God by studying the law and putting into
practice its commandments. Are we in agreement on this?

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know
how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and
he will be subscribed.



--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-29 Thread ShieldsFamily









David,



Sorry
I've been a bit busy lately, and unable to keep up with all the reading on TT.
However, regarding what I wrote below: 

He sets the sinner free--from sin (and its penalty), but
not from disobedience. ,

I
phrased it badly. What I was trying to say was that our freedom is NOT license
to disobey, just because we have faith. 



I
think we basically agree. The only difference I see between us is that I
personally believe that the Lord wants me to keep the Sabbath, at least at this
time in my life. It is not something anyone told me to do, or that I read
about, or had any outside input at all. It is just something the Holy
Spirit spoke to my heart to do. So I do it. 



I
also believe there ARE rewards for obedience, and there ARE judgments for
disobedience. In this life, and in the next life. I think the
rewards of obeying the Lord are a natural result of doing right, just as the
judgments of disobedience are a natural result of doing what is wrong. I
dont think I really need to give you concrete examples of this.
Look at the people around you, the way they live, and kind of reaping they do
for what they have sown. If you dont think that comes as a natural consequence
of pleasing or displeasing God, you can use
whatever term you wish. 



David,
if YOU heard the Lord tell you to keep the Sabbath, wouldnt you do
it? Or would you argue with Him and complain that you dont want to
appear to be a Judaizer? 



You
keep saying that we no longer need the Law because the Law in written in our
hearts. WHAT law
is written in our hearts, if not Gods law? Of
course the OT scriptures dont encapsulate ALL that the Lord wants us to
do or understandit is just baby food in a way. But when you learn
calculus you dont throw out basic math do you? You keep the foundation,
to build upon it. You dont burn the foundation to build a higher
structure. But if you leave out one brick from your foundation, perhaps the
Lord, in His mercy will point out that you have missed it, so that you can
later put it back in the foundation where it belongs. 



By
the way, when I asked the Lord about all the opposition Im getting from
well-meaning folks on TT, and whether I am mistaken about what He has led me to
do regarding keeping Sabbath, that unmistakable inner voice answered me with more
questions, which were: Are you happy? Are you at peace? Are you joyful?
Thats all He had to say. I am overwhelmed with how much peace and
joy has permeated my life since obeying Him on this issue. So Im
not about to stop, unless/until the Lord tells me to. I think there was a
reason He resting on the Sabbath was a good idea in the first place. He
did it Himself, after all. J 



Izzy





-Original
Message-


Izzy
wrote:


But if the Lord wants us to obey His commandments, 


and we don't, then our righteousness is lacking in


that area, no matter how great we think our faith 


is. Then we are still unbelieving and disobedient 


in that area. 



I
agree with you. Our actions locate our faith. We act as we believe,

and
if we act in disobedience, how can we call that faith? We can't.

Faith
causes us to be keepers of the law, therefore, if we find

ourselves
disobedient when trying to be justified by faith, we err and

are
not walking in faith. 



But
if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are

found
sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For

if
I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a

transgressor.


(Galatians
2:17-18 KJV)



Izzy
wrote:


It takes faith to believe His word is still true, 


it takes faith to believe that we can obey, and 


then do it. None of that is possible without Jesus. 


He sets the sinner free--from sin (and its penalty), 


but not from disobedience. 



This
is where you are missing it. Faith in Jesus not only deals with

the
penalty of sin, but faith also sanctifies us. Faith sets us free

from
a life of disobedience. In fact, there is no other way to be

sanctified
but by faith.



Izzy
wrote:


It's not about earning brownie points in heaven. 


It's about joyfully doing what is right in God's


eyes, because we are no longer under bondage to sin. 


Why is this a problem with anybody?



It
is not a problem to joyfully do what is right in God's eyes, but what

is
right is no longer defined by the law for the one who is in Christ

Jesus.
The one in Christ Jesus needs no law at all.



The
idea that righteousness is defined for the believer as the keeping

of
the law would mean that there are only 613 sins because there are

only
613 commandments. Yet Jesus taught us in Matthew 5 that if our

righteousness
did not exceed this, we would not enter the kingdom of

heaven.




Surely
you must recognize the problem of Judaizing in Christianity.

Judaizing
is not just the teaching that salvation is dependent upon

keeping
the law, but it is also the teaching that we are perfected by

the
law. Judaizing is the teaching that we ought

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-29 Thread ShieldsFamily









Michael D wrote : As you know Iz, I do not disagree with the above
statement. It's the notion that this is a requirement for all believers that I,
and others, are trying toshow is contrary to the word of God.



Izzy wrote:

Michael, You have to do whatever the Holy
Spirit leads you to do. 

If you want to disregard the 4th
commandment, that is between the two of you. 

If you dont think you have replaced
Sabbath rest with Sunday rest, that is up to your own conscience. 

I must do what the Lord has put on my
heart. 



Obviously, Michael, you are not heearing
me.



Izzy







-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of michael douglas
Sent: Tuesday,
 October 28, 2003 3:46 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something
To Ponder







ShieldsFamily
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

ShieldsFamily
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 



Michael, 



Those who attempt to obtain salvation by the obeying the Law
are under the law. I am not. I do, however, choose to
be obedient to the commandment of resting on the Sabbath. God never
voided the Sabbath. Jesus, Paul, and all the apostles observed Sabbath,
even after Jesus rose. 

Michael D: It is clear
Izzy, that Paul never required the Gentiles to keep the Sabbath day
commandment. That has nothing to do with the RCC. Acts 15 makes that very
clear. 

Hey Izzy, did you take
up my suggestion to read through Acts 15 carefully re what the apostles and the
Holy Ghost said about keeping the law of Moses? What do you think they
were emphasizing? I'd love to hear your insights on that.

Izzy: Which of my statements, above, are
you disputing? Acts 15 states that gentiles do not have to be circumcised (they
are circumcised in their hearts), but should eat clean foods. It does not
mention the Sabbath; probably because that was not an issue in question, as
they all did it without dispute. I do encourage you to read through Acts
15 very carefully, Izzy. It will show you the mind of God very clearly
concerning this.



Michael D: Izzy, when we take a
close look at Acts 15, we find that it was not just circumcision and eating of 'clean' meats that it addresses.
It addresses the keeping of the whole law: 

 5. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which
believed, saying, That
it was needful
to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. Do you see that, Iz? It's the whole law in
question.



An important question here is whether the 4th commandment is a part of
the law of Moses. Would you agree that it is, Izzy? If you can admitthat,
then you mustsee that the sabbath is also included in the debate in Acts
15. To make it clearer, look at verse 24.

 24. Forasmuch as we have heard that certain which
went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment... 

As we can see, Izzy, James makes
itplain that they were requiring obedience to the law for the Gentiles,
but that the Holy
Ghost said a big NO! (vs 28) it's not for them. Hence my
point at the opening of this post.







Izzy,I think one must understand
that worshipping on Sunday, as practised today, is not a replacement for
Sabbath keeping per se. It is a day when Christians choose to meet to be
edified (really should be to edify each other a la I Cor 14). It could have
been Wednesday (if societal normswere organized around that day) the same
things would take place. Those who call Sunday the Christian Sabbath are a bit
mistaken. The Christian Sabbath has nothing to do with a day. That's why Paul
says, one man esteems one day above the others, but another man esteems all
alike, and both are OK. The fact that our rest is in Christ, allows those
options to be both acceptable.



Michael, You have to do whatever the Holy
Spirit leads you to do. 

Michael D:Do you think that the Holy Spirit will lead me contrary to His
word, Iz? 

If you want to disregard the 4th
commandment, that is between the two of you. 

Michael D: True Iz, but God says the Law is not to be commanded the
Gentiles. How do you reconcile that with having to keep the sabbath day commandment? 



If you dont think you have replaced
Sabbath rest with Sunday rest, that is up to your own conscience. You
wrote: The
Christian Sabbath has nothing to do with a day However, I am sure
you dont rest 7 days as week. I agree with Paul that I am not to judge
you for whatever days you choose to honor.



I must do what the Lord has put on my
heart. 

Michael D: As you know Iz, I do not disagree with the above statement.
It's the notion that this is a requirement for all believers that I, and
others, are trying toshow is contrary to the word of God. Please realise
that we are showing you where God's word is saying this, not our
ownimagination. Please read Acts 15 carefully and relate to what it says,
and let that be your doctrine.











Want to chat instantly with your online

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-27 Thread ShieldsFamily

David,

We cannot be righteous without faith.  Agreed.  But if the Lord wants us to
obey His commandments, and we don't, then our righteousness is lacking in
that area, no matter how great we think our faith is.  Then we are still
unbelieving and disobedient in that area.  It takes faith to believe His
word is still true, it takes faith to believe that we can obey, and then do
it. None of that is possible without Jesus. He sets the sinner free--from
sin (and its penalty), but not from disobedience.  It's not about earning
brownie points in heaven.  It's about joyfully doing what is right in God's
eyes, because we are no longer under bondage to sin. Why is this a problem
with anybody?

You wrote This righteousness that comes through faith is the righteousness
of Jesus Christ.  What, exactly, do you mean by that? That disobeying the
commandments is righteous if only you believe in Jesus? Even the demons
believe in Jesus.  
 Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 9:35 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Izzy wrote:
 It just occurred to me that you are implying that the 
 Lord does not punish rebellion, nor reward obedience, 
 among Believers.  Is that what you are saying? Or are 
 you saying that He just does not want us to obey His
 commandments any more?

I'm saying neither.  The righteousness that comes through faith is
perfect.  Not every Christian has experienced this kind of righteousness
yet, but it is available to those who believe.  This righteousness that
comes through faith is the righteousness of Jesus Christ.  You can't be
any more righteous than that.  Therefore, obedience to the law does not
earn such a believer any rewards or benefits with God whatsoever.  The
believer who has obtained right standing with God through faith cannot
become more favored with God by studying the law and putting into
practice its commandments.  Are we in agreement on this?

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.



--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-27 Thread Terry Clifton







Hey Iz:

I just took a look at the family pictures again. I noticed that you do not have long hair or a head covering. Is it only the old testamentguidelines that you adhere to? 

Terry

---Original Message---


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Monday, October 27, 2003 12:35:48
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

David,

We cannot be righteous without faith. Agreed. But if the Lord wants us to
obey His commandments, and we don't, then our righteousness is lacking in
that area, no matter how great we think our faith is. Then we are still
unbelieving and disobedient in that area. It takes faith to believe His
word is still true, it takes faith to believe that we can obey, and then do
it. None of that is possible without Jesus. He sets the sinner free--from
sin (and its penalty), but not from disobedience. It's not about earning
brownie points in heaven. It's about joyfully doing what is right in God's
eyes, because we are no longer under bondage to sin. Why is this a problem
with anybody?

You wrote "This righteousness that comes through faith is the righteousness
of Jesus Christ." What, exactly, do you mean by that? That disobeying the
commandments is righteous if only you believe in Jesus? Even the demons
believe in Jesus.
 Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Miller
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 9:35 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Izzy wrote:
 It just occurred to me that you are implying that the
 Lord does not punish rebellion, nor reward obedience,
 among Believers. Is that what you are saying? Or are
 you saying that He just does not want us to obey His
 commandments any more?

I'm saying neither. The righteousness that comes through faith is
perfect. Not every Christian has experienced this kind of righteousness
yet, but it is available to those who believe. This righteousness that
comes through faith is the righteousness of Jesus Christ. You can't be
any more righteous than that. Therefore, obedience to the law does not
earn such a believer any rewards or benefits with God whatsoever. The
believer who has obtained right standing with God through faith cannot
become more favored with God by studying the law and putting into
practice its commandments. Are we in agreement on this?

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.



--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

.







 IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-27 Thread ShieldsFamily









Terry,



Actually, my hair is growing longerbut
not for that reason. Im open to discussion on this issue. Seems
like Bruce has mentioned it. 

What do you say, TTers? Are
women supposed to have long hair? What length should a mans hair be?



Izzy,





-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 2:26 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something
To Ponder




 
  
  
  Hey Iz:
  
  
  
  
  
  I just took a look at the family pictures
  again. I noticed that you do not have long hair or a head
  covering. Is it only the old testamentguidelines that you adhere
  to? 
  
  
  
  
  
  Terry
  
  
  
  
  
  ---Original Message---
  
  
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  
  Date: Monday, October 27, 2003 12:35:48
  
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder
  
  
  
  
  
  
  David,
  
  
  
  
  
  We cannot be righteous without faith. Agreed. But if
  the Lord wants us to
  
  
  obey His commandments, and we don't, then our
  righteousness is lacking in
  
  
  that area, no matter how great we think our faith
  is. Then we are still
  
  
  unbelieving and disobedient in that area. It takes
  faith to believe His
  
  
  word is still true, it takes faith to believe that
  we can obey, and then do
  
  
  it. None of that is possible without Jesus. He sets
  the sinner free--from
  
  
  sin (and its penalty), but not from disobedience.
  It's not about earning
  
  
  brownie points in heaven. It's about joyfully doing
  what is right in God's
  
  
  eyes, because we are no longer under bondage to sin.
  Why is this a problem
  
  
  with anybody?
  
  
  
  
  
  You wrote This righteousness that comes
  through faith is the righteousness
  
  
  of Jesus Christ. What, exactly, do you mean by
  that? That disobeying the
  
  
  commandments is righteous if only you believe in
  Jesus? Even the demons
  
  
  believe in Jesus.
  
  
   Izzy
  
  
  
  
  
  -Original Message-
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  On Behalf Of David Miller
  
  
  Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 9:35 PM
  
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder
  
  
  
  
  
  Izzy wrote:
  
  
   It just occurred to me that you are implying
  that the
  
  
   Lord does not punish rebellion, nor reward
  obedience,
  
  
   among Believers. Is that what you are saying?
  Or are
  
  
   you saying that He just does not want us to
  obey His
  
  
   commandments any more?
  
  
  
  
  
  I'm saying neither. The righteousness that comes
  through faith is
  
  
  perfect. Not every Christian has experienced this
  kind of righteousness
  
  
  yet, but it is available to those who believe. This
  righteousness that
  
  
  comes through faith is the righteousness of Jesus
  Christ. You can't be
  
  
  any more righteous than that. Therefore, obedience
  to the law does not
  
  
  earn such a believer any rewards or benefits with
  God whatsoever. The
  
  
  believer who has obtained right standing with God
  through faith cannot
  
  
  become more favored with God by studying the law and
  putting into
  
  
  practice its commandments. Are we in agreement on
  this?
  
  
  
  
  
  Peace be with you.
  
  
  David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
  
  
  
  
  
  --
  
  
  Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned
  with salt, that you may know
  
  
  how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians
  4:6)
  
  
  http://www.InnGlory.org
  
  
  
  
  
  If you do not want to receive posts from this list,
  send an email to
  
  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
  
  
  friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail
  to
  
  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  and he will be subscribed.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  --
  
  
  Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned
  with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man.
  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
  
  
  
  
  
  If you do not want to receive posts from this list,
  send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell
  him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  and he will be subscribed.
  
  
  
  
  
  .
  
  
 
 
  
  
   









   
  
  
  
 



 IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here






image001.jpgimage002.gifimage003.gif

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-27 Thread Slade Henson




I understand where you're coming from, Izzy. 
The Text tells us two things: we cannot have righteousness without faith, but 
the Text also says the commandments of God are our righteousness.

I love dichotomies like this because... 
frankly... there ARE no dichotomies if we practice proper hermeneutics. 
Unfortunately, most Biblical scholars are too lazy... or they don't like what 
they see so they skew the results.

You asked "Why is this a 
problem with anybody?"

  Realistically the answer could be simply that 
  divergent thinking in Christianity is generally looked down on (cultic ideals, 
  you know...) 
  Theother possibility (the one that will 
  get me razed here I'm sure) is that if you believe in keeping the commandments 
  of God and you still have faith in Yeshua... perhaps you're right and their 
  walk is lacking something. Living in a Capitalistic society has given rise to 
  what I call "greatest common denomination." Under this ideal, the idea 
  espoused by the most people must be the right one, and if you can convince 
  more people to believe in your doctrine (no matter how divergent) than who 
  disbelieve, the doctrine is correct. We see this all the time with 
  "testimonial commercials" on television and radio. You, Izzy, have a divergent 
  doctrine, so it must be squashed, otherwise its existence threatens a 
  preconceived notion or existing doctrine.
shalom
slade
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 27 October, 2003 
13:35
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To 
Ponder
David,We cannot be righteous without faith. 
Agreed. But if the Lord wants us toobey His commandments, and we 
don't, then our righteousness is lacking inthat area, no matter how great we 
think our faith is. Then we are stillunbelieving and disobedient in 
that area. It takes faith to believe Hisword is still true, it takes 
faith to believe that we can obey, and then doit. None of that is possible 
without Jesus. He sets the sinner free--fromsin (and its penalty), but not 
from disobedience. It's not about earningbrownie points in 
heaven. It's about joyfully doing what is right in God'seyes, because 
we are no longer under bondage to sin. Why is this a problemwith 
anybody?You wrote "This righteousness that comes through faith is the 
righteousnessof Jesus Christ." What, exactly, do you mean by that? 
That disobeying thecommandments is righteous if only you believe in Jesus? 
Even the demonsbelieve in Jesus. Izzy-Original 
Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
David MillerSent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 9:35 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To PonderIzzy 
wrote: It just occurred to me that you are implying that the  
Lord does not punish rebellion, nor reward obedience,  among 
Believers. Is that what you are saying? Or are  you saying that He 
just does not want us to obey His commandments any more?I'm 
saying neither. The righteousness that comes through faith 
isperfect. Not every Christian has experienced this kind of 
righteousnessyet, but it is available to those who believe. This 
righteousness thatcomes through faith is the righteousness of Jesus 
Christ. You can't beany more righteous than that. Therefore, 
obedience to the law does notearn such a believer any rewards or benefits 
with God whatsoever. Thebeliever who has obtained right standing with 
God through faith cannotbecome more favored with God by studying the law and 
putting intopractice its commandments. Are we in agreement on 
this?Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly Hills, 
Florida.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned 
with salt, that you may knowhow you ought to answer every man." 
(Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send 
an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have 
afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be 
subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, 
seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." 
(Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send 
an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend 
who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-27 Thread Slade Henson




The first question I have in regards to the 
covering for women... is the command cultural? Weren't the Corinthians concerned 
about how one determines who is and who is not available for marriage? Were they 
not concerned with how one determines who is and who is not a prostitute in the 
Corinth culture?

If one is going to adopt this, should they not 
completely cover the hair as the command requires? Should they also adopt giving 
the brethren a holy kiss? Should they also sell their possessions and give 
everything to the congregational coffers?

If the command is cultural, is there an 
equivalent in our own culture we should be adopting?

I think the concept of men wearing men's 
clothing and women wearing women's clothing is cultural as well. One culture 
permits men in skirts while another does not... or would one suggest we all 
wear saris (or the equivalent)like our Father Avraham?

On the flipside... there are certain Torah 
commands that seem to fly against many cultural boundaries... like men always 
having a growth of beard on the face, the Nazir vow, the prohibition against 
tattoos and scarification, etc.

shalom
slade
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Monday, 27 October, 2003 
16:16
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To 
  Ponder
  
  
  Terry,
  
  Actually, my 
  hair is growing longerbut not for that reason. Im open to discussion 
  on this issue. Seems like Bruce has mentioned it. 
  
  What do you 
  say, TTers? Are women supposed to have long hair? What length should a mans 
  hair be?
  
  Izzy,
  
  
  -Original 
  Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Monday, 
  October 27, 2003 
  2:26 
  PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To 
  Ponder
  
  


  

Hey Iz:



I just took a look at the family 
pictures again. I noticed that you do not have long hair or a head 
covering. Is it only the old testamentguidelines that you 
adhere to? 



Terry

  

  
  

  

  

  

image002.gifimage001.jpg

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-26 Thread David Miller

Terry wrote about Adam:
 If he was designed originally to live forever, and 
 time only started when he sinned and was evicted, 
 he may have been in the garden a million years prior 
 to blowin' it.

Why do you think time only started when he sinned if the Bible marks
time during creation, and specifically says that God created the bodies
in the heavens to measure time.  

And the evening and the morning were the third day. 
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to
divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for
seasons, and for days, and years. (Genesis 1:13-14 KJV)
 
The Bible says that all the days that Adam lived were 930 years.  

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years:
and he died. (Genesis 5:5 KJV)

Surely you believe this text, do you not?  Surely it means from the time
he started living, which would be from his creation, right?

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-26 Thread David Miller

Izzy wrote:
 Many Believers think that man has existed for 6,000 years 
 since creation: 4,000 prior to Christ, and 2,000 years since.  
 Thus we approach the verge of entering into the 7th millennium, 
 in which Christ will reign for 1,000 years.  Isn't this mainline 
 Christian belief? Each of the thousand years represents one 
 day of creation.  

It is interesting to me that the Epistle of Barnabas put forth this
argument back in the first century.  He believed that they were about to
start the 7th Millennium back then, and here we are 1900 years later.
:-)

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-26 Thread David Miller

Izzy wrote:
 It just occurred to me that you are implying that the 
 Lord does not punish rebellion, nor reward obedience, 
 among Believers.  Is that what you are saying? Or are 
 you saying that He just does not want us to obey His
 commandments any more?

I'm saying neither.  The righteousness that comes through faith is
perfect.  Not every Christian has experienced this kind of righteousness
yet, but it is available to those who believe.  This righteousness that
comes through faith is the righteousness of Jesus Christ.  You can't be
any more righteous than that.  Therefore, obedience to the law does not
earn such a believer any rewards or benefits with God whatsoever.  The
believer who has obtained right standing with God through faith cannot
become more favored with God by studying the law and putting into
practice its commandments.  Are we in agreement on this?

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-26 Thread Terry Clifton

David:

I don't know how many times I have read this and just skimmed over it.  For
three days, there had already been light, because God had said in verse
three,Let there be light.  That means that the sun and moon were not
necessary for light, but to measure days, as a way of keeping track of time.
Thanks for showing that to me.  I might never have figured it out otherwise.

Terry


 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to
 divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for
 seasons, and for days, and years. (Genesis 1:13-14 KJV)


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-25 Thread Terry Clifton




I Knew there was some reason that I 
assumed it was written by Moses, but could not remember just where I got that 
notion..

Thanks Slade.

Terry

  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 7:45 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To 
  Ponder
  
  . Jesus also called the Torah 
  the Books of Moses. I think our Creator would give credit where credit is 
  due... Don't you think?

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-24 Thread ShieldsFamily









Terry,



Many Believers
think that man has existed for 6,000 years since creation: 4,000 prior to
Christ, and 2,000 years since. Thus we approach the verge of entering
into the 7th millennium, in which Christ will reign for 1,000
years. Isnt this mainline Christian belief? Each of the thousand
years represents one day of creation. 


 
  
  2
  Peter 3:8
  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand
  years, and a thousand years as one day. 
  
  The Sabbath is a weekly reminder of the thousand
  year rest in which Jesus rules and reigns on the earth. (Just
  as our Communion is a reminder of His crucifixion.) This is how I see
  it, anyway.
  
  Izzy 
  
  
  
 






-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003
9:33 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something
To Ponder




 
  
  
  HEY IZ:
  
  
  I was able to follow your line of
  thought until that last sentence, then you lost me. Could you tell me
  where the seventh millennium comes from and what the picture looks
  like? 
  
  
  Thanks,
  
  
  Terry
  
  
  
  
  
  He blesses those who obey it (just
  like He blesses us in all obedient attitudes), and because it is a picture of
  the Millennium Reign of Christ in the 7th millennium. 
  
  
  
  
  
 
 
  
  
   









   
  
  
  
 



 IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here






image001.gif

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-24 Thread ShieldsFamily

David, 

You wrote: I might obey the law, but I am not under law because my obedience
to the
law is a natural by product of walking in the Spirit.  My right standing
with God is based upon faith in Jesus Christ and walking in the Spirit,
not upon my observance of the law.  

Me, too.  

Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 9:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Izzy wrote:
 Those who attempt to obtain salvation by the 
 obeying the Law are under the law.

I do not think that is a proper definition of what it means to be under
law.  It was said of Jesus that he was made under the law (Gal. 4:4).
Surely Jesus was not seeking to obtain salvation by obeying the Law.  To
be under law means that you subject yourself to every jot and tittle of
the law, and that your righteousness before God is based upon your
obedience to that law.  One who is under law is one who believes that
God looks more favorably upon him if he keeps the law.  

I might obey the law, but I am not under law because my obedience to the
law is a natural by product of walking in the Spirit.  My right standing
with God is based upon faith in Jesus Christ and walking in the Spirit,
not upon my observance of the law.  These are two different covenants
with different focus upon how to live and walk in communion with God.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.



--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-24 Thread ShieldsFamily













-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of michael douglas
Sent: Wednesday,
 October 22, 2003 4:38 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something
To Ponder







ShieldsFamily
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

Michael, 



Those who attempt to obtain salvation by the obeying the Law
are under the law. I am not. I do, however, choose to
be obedient to the commandment of resting on the Sabbath. God never
voided the Sabbath. Jesus, Paul, and all the apostles observed Sabbath,
even after Jesus rose. 

Michael D: It is clear
Izzy, that Paul never required the Gentiles to keep the Sabbath day
commandment. That has nothing to do with the RCC. Acts 15 makes that very
clear. 

Hey Izzy, did you take
up my suggestion to read through Acts 15 carefully re what the apostles and the
Holy Ghost said about keeping the law of Moses? What do you think they
were emphasizing? I'd love to hear your insights on that.

Izzy: Which of my statements, above, are
you disputing? Acts 15 states that gentiles do not have to be circumcised (they
are circumcised in their hearts), but should eat clean foods. It does not
mention the Sabbath; probably because that was not an issue in question, as
they all did it without dispute.



The RCC voided the Sabbath in 364 AD by replacing it with
mans better idea of Sun-day. Originally Sunday
through Thursday were just numbered days, counting down to the only named day
of the week, the Sabbath. I obey that commandment by faith that the Lord had a
good reason for it, that He blesses those who obey it (just like He blesses us
in all obedient attitudes), and because it is a picture of the Millennium Reign
of Christ in the 7th millennium. 



Izzy



Izzy, I think one must understand that
worshipping on Sunday, as practised today, is not a replacement for Sabbath
keeping per se. It is a day when Christians choose to meet to be edified
(really should be to edify each other a la I Cor 14). It could have been
Wednesday (if societal normswere organized around that day) the same
things would take place. Those who call Sunday the Christian Sabbath are a bit
mistaken. The Christian Sabbath has nothing to do with a day. That's why Paul
says, one man esteems one day above the others, but another man esteems all
alike, and both are OK. The fact that our rest is in Christ, allows those
options to be both acceptable.



Michael, You have to do whatever the Holy
Spirit leads you to do. If you want to disregard the 4th commandment,
that is between the two of you. If you dont think you have replaced
Sabbath rest with Sunday rest, that is up to your own conscience. You
wrote: The
Christian Sabbath has nothing to do with a day However, I am sure
you dont rest 7 days as week. I agree with Paul that I am not to judge
you for whatever days you choose to honor. I must do what the Lord has
put on my heart. 



Izzy

















Want to chat instantly with your online friends?Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger









Want to chat instantly with your online friends?Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-24 Thread ShieldsFamily

David,

It just occurred to me that you are implying that the Lord does not punish
rebellion, nor reward obedience, among Believers.  Is that what you are
saying? Or are you saying that He just does not want us to obey His
commandments any more?

Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 9:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Izzy wrote:
 Those who attempt to obtain salvation by the 
 obeying the Law are under the law.

I do not think that is a proper definition of what it means to be under
law.  It was said of Jesus that he was made under the law (Gal. 4:4).
Surely Jesus was not seeking to obtain salvation by obeying the Law.  To
be under law means that you subject yourself to every jot and tittle of
the law, and that your righteousness before God is based upon your
obedience to that law.  One who is under law is one who believes that
God looks more favorably upon him if he keeps the law.  

I might obey the law, but I am not under law because my obedience to the
law is a natural by product of walking in the Spirit.  My right standing
with God is based upon faith in Jesus Christ and walking in the Spirit,
not upon my observance of the law.  These are two different covenants
with different focus upon how to live and walk in communion with God.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.



--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-24 Thread Terry Clifton







Izzy:

The 2000 after is pretty obvious. The four thousand prior is kinda iffy. Moses started writing (assuming that it was he who wrote Genesis) somewhere around 1400 BC. From there forward, we have a very accurate record of time. Problem is, when did time begin? Maybe I should ask , where did time begin? Did it start when God took a lump of dirt and made Adam, or did it start when Adam left the garden? After all, Adam was originally designed to last forever,in the garden, and like God, be ageless. If he was designed originally to live forever, and time only started when he sinned and was evicted, he may have been in the garden a million years prior to blowin' it.

Guess it doesn't really matter since it has no effect on my salvation, but it would give those who believe in carbon dating a way to explain things.

Thanks for the clarification.

Terry

---Original Message---


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Friday, October 24, 2003 16:33:29
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder


Terry,

Many Believers think that man has existed for 6,000 years since creation: 4,000 prior to Christ, and 2,000 years since. Thus we approach the verge of entering into the 7th millennium, in which Christ will reign for 1,000 years. Isnt this mainline Christian belief? Each of the thousand years represents one day of creation. 




2 Peter 3:8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 

The Sabbath is a weekly reminder of the thousand year rest in which Jesus rules and reigns on the earth. (Just as our Communion is a reminder of His crucifixion.) This is how I see it, anyway.

Izzy 




-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 9:33 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder






HEY IZ:

I was able to follow your line of thought until that last sentence, then you lost me. Could you tell me where the seventh millennium comes from and what the picture looks like? 

Thanks,

Terry



He blesses those who obey it (just like He blesses us in all obedient attitudes), and because it is a picture of the Millennium Reign of Christ in the 7th millennium. 














 IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here








 IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-22 Thread michael douglas

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:





Michael, 

Those who attempt to obtain salvation by the obeying the Law are under the law. I am not. 
I do, however, choose to be obedient to the commandment of resting on the Sabbath.

Michael D: Good to hear that you are not under the law Izzy. Listen to what Romans 3 says for your benefit:
19. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Would I be correct then in saying that the law does not speak to you (seeing you are not under the law)? 
If it does not speak to you, then obeying it is a matter of choice rather than requirement, wouldn't you agree? In fact you did specify that (coloured in red above). No one has a problem with that, Izzy.The question is:
How does one reconcile having to obey the law, when God says it does not speak to those who are not under the law: showing clear choice rather than requirement??? 
I eagerly await your response to these questions, Iz.Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-22 Thread michael douglas

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Michael,

Those who attempt to obtain salvation by the obeying the Law are under the law. I am not. I do, however, choose to be obedient to the commandment of resting on the Sabbath. God never voided the Sabbath. Jesus, Paul, and all the apostles observed Sabbath, even after Jesus rose.
Michael D: It is clear Izzy, that Paul never required the Gentiles to keep the Sabbath day commandment. That has nothing to do with the RCC. Acts 15 makes that very clear.
Hey Izzy, did you take up my suggestion to read through Acts 15 carefully re what the apostles and the Holy Ghost said about keeping the law of Moses? What do you think they were emphasizing? I'd love to hear your insights on that.

The RCC voided the Sabbath in 364 AD by replacing it with mans better idea of Sun-day. Originally Sunday through Thursday were just numbered days, counting down to the only named day of the week, the Sabbath. I obey that commandment by faith that the Lord had a good reason for it, that He blesses those who obey it (just like He blesses us in all obedient attitudes), and because it is a picture of the Millennium Reign of Christ in the 7th millennium.

Izzy

Izzy, I think one must understand that worshipping on Sunday, as practised today, is not a replacement for Sabbath keeping per se. It is a day when Christians choose to meet to be edified (really should be to edify each other a la I Cor 14). It could have been Wednesday (if societal normswere organized around that day) the same things would take place. Those who call Sunday the Christian Sabbath are a bit mistaken. The Christian Sabbath has nothing to do with a day. That's why Paul says, one man esteems one day above the others, but another man esteems all alike, and both are OK. The fact that our rest is in Christ, allows those options to be both acceptable.

Want to chat instantly with your online friends?Get the FREE Yahoo! MessengerWant to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-21 Thread ShieldsFamily

Bruce, you wrote:

(1) I have never said that God's Torah was for the Jews
only! I did say

that the Ten Commandments, as a unit, including the 7th day
sabbath

commandment was given only for Israel,
but that individually all the other 9

commandments were also given for all peoples.

How did you ever figure
that one out???

You also wrote:

(2)
re. Galatians 3:7, all children of Abraham are not Jews
! Abraham

had
many sons: Ishmael, Isaac, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and

Shuah.
Not one of them was an Israelite although they were all of the seed

of
Abraham!

Abraham
had many grandsons including: Esau and Jacob, Sheba, Dedan, Ephah,

Epher,
Hanoch, Abidan,Eldaah. But of all of Abraham's grandsons, not one of

them
was an Israelite although all were of the seed of Abraham! Only Jacob,

when
he was renamed Israel and his descendants were Israelites.

So
we see one way of being the seed of Abraham is to be a direct physical

descendant
of Abraham's.

But
there is another way to become the seed of Abraham, and that is through

Christ.
Jesus was a direct descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel),

Judah
etc. But He had no physical descendants so those who are the seed of

Abraham
BY FAITH, are those who are born again and transformed in their

spirits.
Such DO become the seed of Abraham, but nowhere does scripture say

that
they become Israel, or the seed of Israel!

That is my whole point, bro! We are spiritually
descendants of Abraham, when/if we are grafted into Abraham (and Israel)
through Jesus. To say that one can be a descendant of Abraham, and not of
Israel, seems silly. And why would you insist that we have
different commandments than Israel had? Why would the Lord decide to just give us
9? I do not follow your line of thinking.

Remember the Southern Kingdom
of Israel became todays Jews (Judah). What do you
think happened to all of the Northern
Kingdom? Doesnt
scripture say that they were dispersed into every nation? Chances are good that
many of us on TT are actual distant physical descendants of the Northern Kingdom. We will never know, most likely. However, the PHYSICAL
descendants are not important: the SPIRITUAL descendants are. They are
the true seed of Abraham.

Izzy

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-21 Thread ShieldsFamily









Michael, 



Those who attempt to obtain salvation by the obeying the Law
are under the law. I am not. I do, however, choose to
be obedient to the commandment of resting on the Sabbath. God never
voided the Sabbath. Jesus, Paul, and all the apostles observed Sabbath,
even after Jesus rose. The RCC voided the Sabbath in 364 AD by replacing it
with mans better idea of Sun-day. Originally Sunday
through Thursday were just numbered days, counting down to the only named day of
the week, the Sabbath. I obey that commandment by faith that the Lord had a
good reason for it, that He blesses those who obey it (just like He blesses us
in all obedient attitudes), and because it is a picture of the Millennium Reign
of Christ in the 7th millennium. 



Izzy



-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of michael douglas
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003
10:55 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something
To Ponder







Bruce Woodford
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

Hi Izzy,
You wrote:Bruce, I am surprised at you for wondering why the issue of the

10 Commandments being banned by our federal government is cause for alarm to 
God-fearing Americans. It seems that if there is, indeed, a God who judges 
nations for their attitude towards Him (and His Word) that this alone is 
enough to make us shudder!

I whole heartedly agree with you that there is tremendous lack of the fear 
of God in our society, and also that God judges not only nations but men and 
women for their attitude towards Him and His Word. However, that was not the 
point I was seeking to make. I was rather trying to emphasize that the 10 
Commandments (as a unit) were not given to all mankind inclusively, but 
rather to the nation of Israel exclusively. (See Exodus 20:2) In fact, the 
Ten Commandments comprised the very covenant that God made with the
nation 
of Israel at Sinai.(Deut 4:13; 5:3) He made no such covenant with any other 
people on earth! However many other scriptures clearly indicate that 9 of 
the 10 ARE required by God of all people.

Having a godly attitude toward the Word of God does NOT mean obeying every 
command given to every person, group or nation in the Book! Parents are not 
to obey commands given to children. Men are not to obey commands given to 
women. Women are not to obey commands given to men. Jews are not to obey 
commands given to Gentiles and Gentiles are not to obey commands given to 
Jews! For me to love and obey the Word of God means knowing and obeying the 
commands that God intended for me! Obeying commands that God did not intend 
for me but rather for someone else may actually be disobedient, IF such 
obedience violates commands that are for me!

BTW, were you aware that while 13 or 14 different designations for the
Ten 
Commandments are used in scripture, the term the law is NOT
one of 
them?!!

The law is used of the Pentateuch (the law of Moses) and it is also
used 
of the entire scriptures from Genesis to Malachi. But nowhere in scripture 
is the termthe law used particularly and specificly of just the Ten

Commandments.

I had asked: How many Christians that you know, who support keeping the
Ten 
Commandments in Federal Buildings, feel any responsibility to keep the 
seventh day sabbath (Ex.20:8-11; Deut.5:11-14)?

You responded:I do. And the Holy Spirit is calling many others, also.
Only 
He knows how many. 
Dear Sister, even though you may not be of the nation of Israel, it is 
certainly your prerogative to observe the 7th day as a sabbath if you so 
choose. (Romans 14:5,6) However, there is no scripture that indicates that 
any Gentile or any non-Jewish Christian has any RESPONSIBILITY before God to 
keep the 7th day sabbath (or any other day!)

You wrote to me:The fact that you think the Ten Commandments were ONLY 
given to the nation of Israel makes me realize that you are not quite as 
enlightened, spiritually, as I assumed you were. 

Michael D: Please allow me to reiterate a point I have
laboured on for some time relating to this subject. I encourage you,Izzy
to read Acts 15 carefully. It states clearly that the Holy Ghost commanded the
apostles and other believers not to require obedience to the law of the
Gentiles. If one can understand this, it will help clear up alot of the
misconceptions re believers having to keep the sabbath etc: 

vs 5. But there rose up certain of the sect of the
Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to
keep the law of Moses.
vs 24. Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have
troubled you with words, subverting your souls,
saying ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
28. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to
us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

One should subject his/her feelings about the law to this
clear pronouncement of God in the midst of a contentious

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-21 Thread Terry Clifton







HEY IZ:
I was able to follow your line of thought until that last sentence, then you lost me. Could you tell me where the seventh millennium comes from and what the picture looks like? 
Thanks,
Terry

He blesses those who obey it (just like He blesses us in all obedient attitudes), and because it is a picture of the Millennium Reign of Christ in the 7th millennium. 









 IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-17 Thread michael douglas

Bruce Woodford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi Izzy,You wrote:"Bruce, I am surprised at you for wondering why the issue of the 10 Commandments being banned by our federal government is cause for alarm to God-fearing Americans. It seems that if there is, indeed, a God who judges nations for their attitude towards Him (and His Word) that this alone is enough to make us shudder!"I whole heartedly agree with you that there is tremendous lack of the fear of God in our society, and also that God judges not only nations but men and women for their attitude towards Him and His Word. However, that was not the point I was seeking to make. I was rather trying to emphasize that the 10 Commandments (as a unit) were not given to all mankind inclusively, but rather to the nation of Israel exclusively. (See Exodus 20:2) In fact, the "Ten Commandments" comprised the very covenant that God made with the nation of Israel at Sinai.(Deut 4:13; 5:3) He made no such covenant with any other
people on earth! However many other scriptures clearly indicate that 9 of the 10 ARE required by God of all people.Having a godly attitude toward the Word of God does NOT mean obeying every command given to every person, group or nation in the Book! Parents are not to obey commands given to children. Men are not to obey commands given to women. Women are not to obey commands given to men. Jews are not to obey commands given to Gentiles and Gentiles are not to obey commands given to Jews! For me to love and obey the Word of God means knowing and obeying the commands that God intended for me! Obeying commands that God did not intend for me but rather for someone else may actually be disobedient, IF such obedience violates commands that are for me!BTW, were you aware that while 13 or 14 different designations for "the Ten Commandments" are used in scripture, the term "the law" is NOT one of them?!!"The law" is used
of the Pentateuch (the law of Moses) and it is also used of the entire scriptures from Genesis to Malachi. But nowhere in scripture is the term"the law" used particularly and specificly of just the Ten Commandments.I had asked: "How many Christians that you know, who support keeping the Ten Commandments in Federal Buildings, feel any responsibility to keep the seventh day sabbath (Ex.20:8-11; Deut.5:11-14)?"You responded:"I do. And the Holy Spirit is calling many others, also. Only He knows how many. "Dear Sister, even though you may not be of the nation of Israel, it is certainly your prerogative to observe the 7th day as a sabbath if you so choose. (Romans 14:5,6) However, there is no scripture that indicates that any Gentile or any non-Jewish Christian has any RESPONSIBILITY before God to keep the 7th day sabbath (or any other day!)You wrote to me:"The fact that you think the Ten Commandments were ONLY given
to the nation of Israel makes me realize that you are not quite as enlightened, spiritually, as I assumed you were.
Michael D: Please allow me to reiterate a point I have laboured on for some time relating to this subject. I encourage you,Izzy to read Acts 15 carefully. It states clearly that the Holy Ghost commanded the apostles and other believers not to require obedience to the law of the Gentiles. If one can understand this, it will help clear up alot of the misconceptions re believers having to keep the sabbath etc:
vs 5. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. vs 24. Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 28. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
One should subject his/her feelings about the law to this clear pronouncement of God in the midst of a contentious struggle among the early saints. Those who require the law of believers are said to be subverting their souls... Interesting concept.
Of course Romans 3 says the specific reason for the law being given and to whom it applied. For those who are in Christ, the law can make no legitimate demands.
19. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 7:
1. know ye not brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law has dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 4.Wherefore my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit from the dead.
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-16 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Izzy,
You wrote:Bruce, I am surprised at you for wondering why the issue of the 
10 Commandments being banned by our federal government is cause for alarm to 
God-fearing Americans. It seems that if there is, indeed, a God who judges 
nations for their attitude towards Him (and His Word) that this alone is 
enough to make us shudder!

I whole heartedly agree with you that there is tremendous lack of the fear 
of God in our society, and also that God judges not only nations but men and 
women for their attitude towards Him and His Word. However, that was not the 
point I was seeking to make.  I was rather trying to emphasize that the 10 
Commandments (as a unit) were not given to all mankind inclusively, but 
rather to the nation of Israel exclusively.  (See Exodus 20:2) In fact, the 
Ten Commandments comprised the very covenant that God made with the nation 
of Israel at Sinai.(Deut 4:13; 5:3) He made no such covenant with any other 
people on earth!  However many other scriptures clearly indicate that 9 of 
the 10 ARE  required by God of all people.

Having a godly attitude toward the Word of God does NOT mean obeying every 
command given to every person, group or nation in the Book! Parents are not 
to obey commands given to children. Men are not to obey commands given to 
women. Women are not to obey commands given to men. Jews are not to obey 
commands given to Gentiles and Gentiles are not to obey commands given to 
Jews! For me to love and obey the Word of God means knowing and obeying the 
commands that God intended for me!  Obeying commands that God did not intend 
for me but rather for someone else may actually be disobedient, IF such 
obedience violates commands that are for me!

BTW, were you aware that while 13 or 14 different designations for the Ten 
Commandments are used in scripture, the term the law is NOT one of 
them?!!

The law is used of the Pentateuch (the law of Moses) and it is also used 
of the entire scriptures from Genesis to Malachi.  But nowhere in scripture 
is the termthe law used particularly and specificly of just the Ten 
Commandments.

I had asked: How many Christians that you know, who support keeping the Ten 
Commandments in Federal Buildings, feel any responsibility to keep the 
seventh day sabbath (Ex.20:8-11; Deut.5:11-14)?

You responded:I do. And the Holy Spirit is calling many others, also. Only 
He knows how many. 
Dear Sister, even though you may not be of the nation of Israel, it is 
certainly your prerogative to observe the 7th day as a sabbath if you so 
choose. (Romans 14:5,6) However, there is no scripture that indicates that 
any Gentile or any non-Jewish Christian has any RESPONSIBILITY before God to 
keep the 7th day sabbath (or any other day!)

You wrote to me:The fact that you think the Ten Commandments were ONLY 
given to the nation of Israel makes me realize that you are not quite as 
enlightened, spiritually, as I assumed you were. To whom are we grafted 
in, but the olive tree of Israel?

Izzy, I heartily acknowledge that I am not nearly as enlightened 
spiritually as I would like to be! But I am aware of the teaching relative 
to the olive tree of Romans 11. However, I am not yet aware of any 
statement in Romans 11 or any other scripture which equates the olive tree 
to Israel!  Are you?

It is my understanding that the olive tree does not picture Israel (as a 
nation), nor does it picture the sum total of Israelites which have 
acknowledged their Messiah. Neither of these things are taught or inferred 
in Romans 11. Rather, I believe, that the olive tree of this chapter 
stands for the election of which we read in Romans 11 verses 5,7,and 28.   
Israel (as a nation) was chosen (elected) by God to be a special people unto 
Himself by which God would bless the world. (Deut.7:6,7) However this 
election was NOT an election to salvation.  Many of Israel became very proud 
and haughty as a result of this election. Scripture is clear that God 
resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. So the election of Romans 
11 is a specific KIND OF PEOPLE, but it is not a national group.  The KIND 
of people which God has elected to save are clearly described in I 
Cor.1:27and 28.  The purpose why God chose to save that specific KIND is 
stated in verse 29.  Thus the election is composed of people of this KIND  
from every nation under heaven.

You wrote:We are not saved by obedience to Torah. We are not saved by 
abstinence from sin. We are saved only by faith in the redeeming sacrifice 
of Jesus! But we express our faith through obedience to His Word, as faith 
without works is dead. Would you believe a persons confession of faith in 
Christ if you knew he was an adulterer and liar? Of course not! (Bill 
Clinton comes to mind as a good example. He walked around openly flaunting 
his Bible, and he claimed to be a Believer-did you fall for it?)

I never did see any fruit (evidence of faith)  in Bill Clinton. However 
although David was an adulterer and

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-16 Thread ShieldsFamily









Bruce,



You
believe that God's Torah was for Jews only; not for ALL of God's people.
However, Galatians 3 states in v7 Know
ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of
Abraham.



So
how do you figure? 



Izzy

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-16 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Izzy,

You wrote:Bruce, You believe that God's Torah was for Jews only; not for
ALL of God's people. However, Galatians 3 states in v7 Know ye therefore
that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

So how do you figure?

Two comments here, Sister:

(1) I have never said that God's Torah was for the Jews only! I did say
that the Ten Commandments, as a unit, including the 7th day sabbath
commandment was given only for Israel, but that individually all the other 9
commandments were also given for all peoples.

(2) re. Galatians 3:7, all children of Abraham are not Jews ! Abraham
had many sons: Ishmael, Isaac, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and
Shuah. Not one of them was an Israelite although they were all of the seed
of Abraham!

Abraham had many grandsons including: Esau and Jacob, Sheba, Dedan, Ephah,
Epher, Hanoch, Abidan,Eldaah. But of all of Abraham's grandsons, not one of
them was an Israelite although all were of the seed of Abraham! Only Jacob,
when he was renamed Israel and his descendants were Israelites.

So we see one way of being the seed of Abraham is to be a direct physical
descendant of Abraham's.

But there is another way to become the seed of Abraham, and that is through
Christ. Jesus was a direct descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel),
Judah etc. But He had no physical descendants so those who are the seed of
Abraham BY FAITH, are those who are born again and transformed in their
spirits. Such DO become the seed of Abraham, but nowhere does scripture say
that they become Israel, or the seed of Israel!

Does this help?

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
_
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-15 Thread Judith H. Taylor


 Bruce Woodford [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Izzy wrote:Why do I have to swear on the Bible in court when the 
Ten Commandments cannot be displayed in a federal building?
 
 Terry wrote:Good question, but the truth is, you are not 
required to swear on the Bible. An option is to solemnly 
confirm.
 
 Bruce asks: Is it not affirm?
snipped Matt 5:33-37 and James 5:12 

Judy:
Being sworn in at Court is not the same as swearing an oath
and the Bible represents God in the Courtroom; it is hoped that
there is more fear of God in the person who is about to testify
than fear of anything else, although this is seldom the case these
days.

Bruce: 
What is all the hoopla about the Ten Commandments by Christians 
all about??? How many Christians that you know, who support 
keeping the Ten Commandments in Federal Buildings, feel any 
responsibility to keep the seventh day sabbath (Ex.20:8-11; 
Deut.5:11-14)?Why should a law that was only given for 
the nation of Israel be displayed in United States Federal 
 buildings??

Judy:
This is another subject entirely Bruce. God gave this Law at the
start because of transgressions and it is impossible to be self
governing without a healthy fear of God. Since it is this law
which brings one to Christ, why do you say it is ONLY given
for the nation of Israel?  Is God a respecter of persons?

Grace and Peace,
Judy
 
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-15 Thread Slade Henson

When I lived in Wisconsin, they merely rose their hand and swore. No Bible.
No So Help Me God. Also in Wisconsin, the option of confirm is for those
who say they cannot swear.

shalom
slade

e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: Judith H. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2003 04:24
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder



  Bruce Woodford [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Izzy wrote:Why do I have to swear on the Bible in court when the
 Ten Commandments cannot be displayed in a federal building?

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-15 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Judy,
You wrote:Being sworn in at Court is not the same as swearing an oath and
the Bible represents God in the Courtroom; ...

Can you tell us what the difference is? And also how swearing in court is
related to the commands of scripture to swear not at all but to let your yea
be yea and your nay, nay?

When I asked how many keep the 7th day sabbath etc...
Your esponded:...God gave this Law at the start because of transgressions
and it is impossible to be self
governing without a healthy fear of God. Since it is this law which brings
one to Christ, why do you say it is ONLY given for the nation of Israel? Is
God a respecter of persons?

When you say, this law, which law were you referring to? The sabbath
commanment? or the Ten Commandments as a unit?

Are you aware that scripture uses 13 or 14 different designations for the
Ten Commandments but Law is NOT one of them??!! The term The law is
used of the Pentateuch or of the entire scriptures from Genesis to Malachi,
but never of the Ten alone.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
_
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-14 Thread Terry Clifton

Title: FW: Something To Ponder



Good question, but the truth is, you are not required to swear 
on the Bible. An option is to "solemnly confirm".

Terry

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 2:26 
  AM
  Subject: [TruthTalk] Something To 
  Ponder
  
  
  

  Here's 
  Something To Ponder: 
  
  Why do I have to 
  swear on the Bible in court when the Ten Commandments cannot be displayed 
  in a federal building?

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-14 Thread ShieldsFamily

Title: FW: Something To Ponder









I wouldnt trust anyone who chose that option. J Izzy



-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003
7:34 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something
To Ponder





Good question, but the truth is, you are
not required to swear on the Bible. An option is to solemnly
confirm.











Terry







- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 2:26 AM





Subject: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder
















Here's Something To Ponder: 

Why do I have to swear on the
Bible in court when the Ten Commandments cannot be displayed in a federal
building?

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-14 Thread Terry Clifton

Title: FW: Something To Ponder



I always choose that option. Jesus says "Let your yes be 
yes and your no be no". Do not live your life so that you have to take an 
oath before someone will assume that you are telling the truth.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 8:31 
  AM
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To 
  Ponder
  
  
  I wouldnt trust anyone who chose 
  that option. J Izzy
  
  -Original 
  Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 7:34 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To 
  Ponder
  
  
  Good question, but 
  the truth is, you are not required to swear on the Bible. An option is 
  to "solemnly confirm".
  
  
  
  Terry
  

- Original 
Message - 

From: ShieldsFamily 


To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


Sent: Tuesday, October 
14, 2003 2:26 AM

Subject: [TruthTalk] 
Something To Ponder



  
Here's 
Something To Ponder: 
Why 
do I have to swear on the Bible in court when the Ten Commandments 
cannot be displayed in a federal building?

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-14 Thread Bruce Woodford

Izzy wrote:Why do I have to swear on the Bible in court when the Ten 
Commandments cannot be displayed in a federal building?

Terry wrote:Good question, but the truth is, you are not required to swear 
on the Bible. An option is to solemnly confirm.

Bruce asks: Is it not affirm?

Izzy responded:I wouldn't trust anyone who chose that option.

But here is another perspective:  The very Bible on which people swear 
commands them not to do that very thing!!!
Matthew 5:33  Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old 
time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine 
oaths:
34  But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's 
throne:
35  Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it 
is the city of the great King.
36  Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one 
hair white or black.
37  But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is 
more than these cometh of evil.
James 5:12  But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, 
neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; 
and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

For this very reason, many godly Christians refuse to swear on the Bible in 
court but rather choose to affirm,(let their yea be yea)!

What is all the hoopla about the Ten Commandments by Christians all about??? 
 How many Christians that you know, who support keeping the Ten 
Commandments in Federal Buildings, feel any responsibility to keep the 
seventh day sabbath (Ex.20:8-11; Deut.5:11-14)?Why should a law that was 
only given for the nation of Israel be displayed in United States Federal 
buildings??

How many of these same people have married other spouses when the spouse to 
which God originally joined them was still living and thus violated the 
commandment, Thou shalt not commit adultery.?

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
_
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought 
to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-14 Thread Terry Clifton

Bruce:

You are correct.  Affirm is the word the court clerk uses.

Terry

- Original Message -
From: Bruce Woodford [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 2:29 PM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

 Izzy wrote:Why do I have to swear on the Bible in court when the Ten
 Commandments cannot be displayed in a federal building?

 Terry wrote:Good question, but the truth is, you are not required to
swear
 on the Bible. An option is to solemnly confirm.

 Bruce asks: Is it not affirm?

 Izzy responded:I wouldn't trust anyone who chose that option.

 But here is another perspective:  The very Bible on which people swear
 commands them not to do that very thing!!!
 Matthew 5:33  Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old
 time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord
thine
 oaths:
 34  But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is
God's
 throne:
 35  Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for
it
 is the city of the great King.
 36  Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one
 hair white or black.
 37  But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is
 more than these cometh of evil.
 James 5:12  But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by
heaven,
 neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea;
 and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

 For this very reason, many godly Christians refuse to swear on the Bible
in
 court but rather choose to affirm,(let their yea be yea)!

 What is all the hoopla about the Ten Commandments by Christians all
about???
   How many Christians that you know, who support keeping the Ten
 Commandments in Federal Buildings, feel any responsibility to keep the
 seventh day sabbath (Ex.20:8-11; Deut.5:11-14)?Why should a law that
was
 only given for the nation of Israel be displayed in United States Federal
 buildings??

 How many of these same people have married other spouses when the spouse
to
 which God originally joined them was still living and thus violated the
 commandment, Thou shalt not commit adultery.?

 Your brother in Christ,
 Bruce

 _
 MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
 http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-14 Thread David Miller

Bruce wrote:
 What is all the hoopla about the Ten Commandments 
 by Christians all about??? How many Christians that 
 you know, who support keeping the Ten Commandments 
 in Federal Buildings, feel any responsibility to keep 
 the seventh day sabbath (Ex.20:8-11; Deut.5:11-14)?
 Why should a law that was only given for the nation 
 of Israel be displayed in United States Federal
 buildings??

Clearly, Bruce, the Ten Commandments are not the current laws of our
land.  However, these are the commandments which God wrote with his own
finger.  I think any place of law ought to acknowledge God and these
commandments which he wrote with his own finger.  When we as a society
consider it illegal to display such in the public place, and instead
argue that they must be moved to some back closet somewhere where people
won't see them, then something is very wrong with our system.  

The purpose in displaying the ten commandments in my mind is not to
force these laws upon others, as you seem to indicate in your letter.
Rather, it is a simple acknowledgement of God and the commandments which
he considered important enough to write with his own finger.  We ought
to respect that and give it homage, despite our own thinking about how
things have changed since that time.  Our inability to give such
acknowledgment indicates something is wrong with our system.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-14 Thread LaurHamm




Could we not also say the purpose is to remind us (especially we Christians) that these are the principles under which our country was founded. I think way to often we forget that although people settled here to avoid religious persecution, the country was founded on biblical principles. Laura


In a message dated 10/14/2003 6:42:32 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The purpose in displaying the ten commandments in my mind is not toforce these laws upon others, as you seem to indicate in your letter.Rather, it is a simple acknowledgement of God and the commandments whichhe considered important enough to write with his own finger. We oughtto respect that and give it homage, despite our own thinking about howthings have changed since that time. Our inability to give suchacknowledgment indicates something is wrong with our system.

91 matches

Mail list logo