Re: [U2] Better and Better Application - Launching today Friday 8/21/09 -- Browser instructions
It is also a no-go for linux. -Original Message- From: Kevin King precisonl...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 11:04 PM To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Better and Better Application - Launching today Friday 8/21/09 -- Browser instructions Is this the same issue that's stopping Safari and Chrome as well? Not to throw stones but it seems like there's a lot of browser caveats for a ... um... browser-based tool. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] SBClient 5.3.8 on 64 bit vista
Thanks Kevin. Can you send me a link to the download page? Thanks again. Kevin King wrote: I just verified that Dynamic Connect does have U2 device licensing support. I thought so, but now I've verified, at least with DC6.0. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Better and Better Application - Launching today Friday 8/21/09 -- Browser instructions
u2-users-ow...@listserver.u2ug.org said the following on 8/22/2009 7:51 AM: The message's content type was not explicitly allowed Kevin: I believe so. DesignBais is written as an .asp application. You get all the benefits of AJAX style validation of fields, but you need IE to run this kind of application. They have a W3C mode, which has less capabilities but is cross-browser compliant. I was under the impression that the application was written to take advantage of this. Baker Hughes wrote... /3. The application runs natively in IE7 and IE8. There have been instances in IE8 when the website will not load correctly. These have been resolved by making all of the forms in the application W3C compliant. If you should experience this, please let us know so we can troubleshoot the situation./ ...but maybe not. Clearly the application doesn't run properly in IE8. So, I guess some troubleshooting is in order. :-) Bill Kevin King said the following on 8/21/2009 8:04 PM: Is this the same issue that's stopping Safari and Chrome as well? Not to throw stones but it seems like there's a lot of browser caveats for a ... um... browser-based tool. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Better and Better Application - Launching today Friday 8/21/09 -- Browser instructions
Having worked with asp.net from inception, I can say that this type of thinking is absolutely bogus. If things only work in IE, it has nothing to do with it being a .asp, .aspx , ASP.NET , pick your platform application. It is a simply matter of lazy/uninformed design/implementation. My guess is it was written to work only in IE by virtue of it being 'written' using 100% visual studio dragdrop and never tested in any other browsers at any point to ensure that it was in fact cross browser compliant - this is a developer issue NOT a development platform issue. I hate to say it, but it really bad to have such a site advertised as the mv world's 'Better Better' web app, as it just reinforces the kiddie/dinosaur/non-professional impressions that are a constant hindrance. Sorry if that treads on any toes, but this is an extremely poor example of a professional web app. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: August 22, 2009 10:56 AM To: U2 Mail List Subject: Re: [U2] Better and Better Application - Launching today Friday 8/21/09 -- Browser instructions u2-users-ow...@listserver.u2ug.org said the following on 8/22/2009 7:51 AM: The message's content type was not explicitly allowed Kevin: I believe so. DesignBais is written as an .asp application. You get all the benefits of AJAX style validation of fields, but you need IE to run this kind of application. They have a W3C mode, which has less capabilities but is cross-browser compliant. I was under the impression that the application was written to take advantage of this. Baker Hughes wrote... /3. The application runs natively in IE7 and IE8. There have been instances in IE8 when the website will not load correctly. These have been resolved by making all of the forms in the application W3C compliant. If you should experience this, please let us know so we can troubleshoot the situation./ ...but maybe not. Clearly the application doesn't run properly in IE8. So, I guess some troubleshooting is in order. :-) Bill Kevin King said the following on 8/21/2009 8:04 PM: Is this the same issue that's stopping Safari and Chrome as well? Not to throw stones but it seems like there's a lot of browser caveats for a ... um... browser-based tool. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Better and Better Application - Launching todayFriday 8/21/09 -- Browser instructions
Hey -- Is this your way of volunteering to help? Sweet! Drop Baker your information so we can get you set up! The project, being 100% volunteer, has been through LOTS of hands. If you'd like to help, you can then criticize the heck out of it. And if you don't want to help, then let your issues be known WITHOUT editorial. Is that so much to ask? There are probably LOTS of implementation issues on getting this out the door -- This is a VOLUNTEER project -- the work was started in Australia, loose ends as found updated from the U.S. on a server based in Europe - And we're on a machine that is 'under-licensed' for the onslaught of people curious to see what's behind the flap once it was tossed out there - there really wasn't a way to do a 'follow the sun' release announcement to limit the risk to running out of seats on a machine that will normally have 3 people a day touch it! I'm guessing many of the issues being seen are from too many people online at once. There WILL be issues for the first few weeks/months. Sorry about reality being such a bitch... REMEMBER -- This is volunteer work being done to make the world a better place for everyone... Cut some slack for those people so they have incentive to keep working on it. Or at least man up (person up?) enough to post your name if you're going to post a bitch! I'm not part of this project directly, but it really irks me when people who won't even sign their name criticize things they were 'too busy' (lazy?) to help with. This is like voting -- either be part of the process or shut the heck up! They need the feedback on what is not working correctly so it can be fixed. The editorials... Not so much. If that steps on any toes, I'm equally as sorry as I'm sure this poster was. ;-) And that is my two cents. Returning you now to your regularly scheduled non-flame-related list... And really folks -- give it a week or two to settle down. Send any 'found issues' or 'connection problems' to the group so they can be reviewed -- if possible, include the time (and your TimeZone!) and your browser used (along with version). Hopefully with the data they can find out if the issue is 'seats' (and then perhaps can get IBM to donate more!) or a particular browser is having issues that needs particular review. I can promise you no one tested this with Chrome or Safari -- no one in the volunteer groups uses those! So again, if you want to vollunteer to 'beta test' your favorite flavor of browser, PLEASE let Baker know -- they can always use more help. Without editorial. David W. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of u2ug Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 11:02 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Better and Better Application - Launching todayFriday 8/21/09 -- Browser instructions Having worked with asp.net from inception, I can say that this type of thinking is absolutely bogus. If things only work in IE, it has nothing to do with it being a .asp, .aspx , ASP.NET , pick your platform application. It is a simply matter of lazy/uninformed design/implementation. My guess is it was written to work only in IE by virtue of it being 'written' using 100% visual studio dragdrop and never tested in any other browsers at any point to ensure that it was in fact cross browser compliant - this is a developer issue NOT a development platform issue. I hate to say it, but it really bad to have such a site advertised as the mv world's 'Better Better' web app, as it just reinforces the kiddie/dinosaur/non-professional impressions that are a constant hindrance. Sorry if that treads on any toes, but this is an extremely poor example of a professional web app. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Better and Better Application - Launching today Friday 8/21/09 -- Browser instructions
Opera won't load it either, obviously, because it's not IE. GlenB Steve Romanow wrote: It is also a no-go for linux. -Original Message- From: Kevin King precisonl...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 11:04 PM To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Better and Better Application - Launching today Friday 8/21/09 -- Browser instructions Is this the same issue that's stopping Safari and Chrome as well? Not to throw stones but it seems like there's a lot of browser caveats for a ... um... browser-based tool. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Better and Better Application - Launching todayFriday 8/21/09 -- Browser instructions
David Wolverton wrote: Hey -- Is this your way of volunteering to help? Sweet! Drop Baker your information so we can get you set up! The project, being 100% volunteer, has been through LOTS of hands. If you'd like to help, you can then criticize the heck out of it. And if you don't want to help, then let your issues be known WITHOUT editorial. Is that so much to ask? There are probably LOTS of implementation issues on getting this out the door -- This is a VOLUNTEER project -- the work was started in Australia, loose ends as found updated from the U.S. on a server based in Europe - And we're on a machine that is 'under-licensed' for the onslaught of people curious to see what's behind the flap once it was tossed out there - there really wasn't a way to do a 'follow the sun' release announcement to limit the risk to running out of seats on a machine that will normally have 3 people a day touch it! I'm guessing many of the issues being seen are from too many people online at once. There WILL be issues for the first few weeks/months. Sorry about reality being such a bitch... REMEMBER -- This is volunteer work being done to make the world a better place for everyone... Cut some slack for those people so they have incentive to keep working on it. Volunteer projects can be rolled out with better browser support than currently demonstrated. The problem with relying on a specific browser's features is the fact that you end up building an app with lots of mods later that can become troublesome to debug and fix when the mods start affecting each other. Rushing a project to fruition solely based on IE's features is not a great way to demonstrate any public web app IMO. I have to agree with the poster's comments on that fact, but I also don't think it's proper to point fingers and name development methods if there are no facts to reference. They need the feedback on what is not working correctly so it can be fixed. The editorials... Not so much. Relying solely on IE's non-W3C features is the first bug. If this is an intranet app, then use whatever you want. If this is to be a public bug reporting tool then perhaps the initial approach is not the best one. And really folks -- give it a week or two to settle down. Send any 'found issues' or 'connection problems' to the group so they can be reviewed -- if possible, include the time (and your TimeZone!) and your browser used (along with version). Hopefully with the data they can find out if the issue is 'seats' (and then perhaps can get IBM to donate more!) or a particular browser is having issues that needs particular review. I can promise you no one tested this with Chrome or Safari -- no one in the volunteer groups uses those! So again, if you want to vollunteer to 'beta test' your favorite flavor of browser, PLEASE let Baker know -- they can always use more help. Without editorial. David W. The problem isn't the connection or the seats. It's the error reporting and the fact that you can't tell that you have to have IE to load the home page. Here's the URL I get redirected to: http://212.241.202.162:8080/db/errDisplay.asp?code=1011er=ERROR:%20EXP01%20MS%20Internet%20Explorer%206.0%20or%20later%20is%20required%20to%20use%20DesignBais.%20%20Please%20download%20IE6%20or%20later%20and%20try%20again. The page itself just says: Error Report An error occured in this application. Please contact your system administrator or your software vendor to report this problem. [Try Again] Why isn't the real error (in the URL) on the page itself? That would probably help some. GlenB ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Better and Better Application - Launching today Friday 8/21/09 -- Browser instructions
There has been an issue about the application being implemented differently to what it was designed for and this is causing the browser issues. Please do not criticize the tools and applications, nor make derogatory comments about designers as it is totally uncalled for and defamotory. This has been a project done by volunteers around the world working in their spare time. This is a tremendously difficult task of communicating between people in different timezones who have to also work in their paid jobs. It is no mean feat to coordinate a project around the world with so little resources. There is no funding for this project and it is done out of the kindness of others. When you have an environment like this, there is bound to be misunderstandings, miscommunications and teething problems. Please give the user group a chance to resolve the issues before tearing it apart, furthermore volunteers are always welcome. Regards David Jordan ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] UD: Executing small part of subroutine code once from dictionary call
An interesting note to this is I use a TCL shell written in BASIC; in fact, all of our application menus run in BASIC. Consequently, @DATE in the BASIC subroutine is always the same whenever I run the SORT... from the TCL shell. Bill, On UV -- I don't know about UD -- @date @time are set for child programs that are EXECUTEd, but not if they are CALLed or PERFORMed. That is partly configurable, maybe configurable on UD, too? So it would depend on how your menu tcl shell basic programs kick off programs. Here's a set of 3 sample progrrams and a cutpaste of their output when run. Notice @time is always 64814 except for during the two EXECUTEs (64818, 64822). Notice @time reverts back to its original 64814 after returning from each EXECUTE. UV 10.3 PE, Windows See if you get the same on UD. ATTIME.TOP 0001 CRT 'STARTING ATTIME.TOP' 0002 CRT '@TIME=':@TIME 0003 SLEEP 2 0004 CALL ATTIME.SUB 0005 CRT '@TIME=':@TIME 0006 SLEEP 2 0007 EXECUTE 'ATTIME.VERB' 0008 CRT '@TIME=':@TIME 0009 SLEEP 2 0010 PERFORM 'ATTIME.VERB' 0011 CRT '@TIME=':@TIME 0012 SLEEP 2 0013 CRT '-' 0014 EXECUTE \LIST VOC SELECT EVAL @TIME\ ; * arbitrary file item 0015 CRT '-' 0016 CRT '@TIME=':@TIME 0017 SLEEP 2 0018 CRT '-' 0019 PERFORM \LIST VOC SELECT EVAL @TIME\ ; * arbitrary file item 0020 CRT '-' 0021 CRT '@TIME=':@TIME ATTIME.SUB 0001 SUBROUTINE ATTIME.SUB 0002 CRT 'STARTING ATTIME.SUB' 0003 CRT '@TIME=':@TIME 0004 CRT 'RETURNING' 0005 RETURN ATTIME.VERB 0001 CRT ' ':@SENTENCE 0002 CRT '@TIME=':@TIME 0003 STOPM 'STOPPING ATTIME.VERB' RUN BP ATTIME.TOP STARTING ATTIME.TOP @TIME=64814 STARTING ATTIME.SUB @TIME=64814 RETURNING @TIME=64814 ATTIME.VERB @TIME=64818 STOPPING ATTIME.VERB @TIME=64814 ATTIME.VERB @TIME=64814 STOPPING ATTIME.VERB @TIME=64814 - LIST VOC SELECT EVAL @TIME 06:00:22pm 22 Aug 2009 PAGE1 VOC.@TIME. SELECT 64822 1 records listed. - @TIME=64814 - LIST VOC SELECT EVAL @TIME 06:00:24pm 22 Aug 2009 PAGE1 VOC.@TIME. SELECT 64814 1 records listed. - @TIME=64814 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] UD: Executing small part of subroutine code once from dictionary call
u2-users-ow...@listserver.u2ug.org said the following on 8/22/2009 6:34 PM: The message's content type was not explicitly allowed Charles: When I run a command from our TCL shell's prompt the command is executed. Thus the query is executed from a BASIC program. When I list the data calculated in the virtual attribute subroutine (an I-descriptor), the @DATE and @TIME value are static. When I run the query from real ECL the date/time are reset. So, in UD @DATE and @TIME aren't reset in a called child process. When I create a program that PERFORMs the query then run the program from our TCL shell (the query's executed from BASIC) the @DATE and @TIME don't change either. So it seems there is nothing I can do in UD to alter these two @ variables as long as I'm running from BASIC. Thus, a called subroutine from a virtual attribute can't be initialized at the beginning of the query. Wouldn't this seem like a deficiency to you? Thanks, Bill Charles Stevenson said the following on 8/22/2009 6:11 PM: An interesting note to this is I use a TCL shell written in BASIC; in fact, all of our application menus run in BASIC. Consequently, @DATE in the BASIC subroutine is always the same whenever I run the SORT... from the TCL shell. Bill, On UV -- I don't know about UD -- @date @time are set for child programs that are EXECUTEd, but not if they are CALLed or PERFORMed. That is partly configurable, maybe configurable on UD, too? So it would depend on how your menu tcl shell basic programs kick off programs. Here's a set of 3 sample progrrams and a cutpaste of their output when run. Notice @time is always 64814 except for during the two EXECUTEs (64818, 64822). Notice @time reverts back to its original 64814 after returning from each EXECUTE. UV 10.3 PE, Windows See if you get the same on UD. ATTIME.TOP 0001 CRT 'STARTING ATTIME.TOP' 0002 CRT '@TIME=':@TIME 0003 SLEEP 2 0004 CALL ATTIME.SUB 0005 CRT '@TIME=':@TIME 0006 SLEEP 2 0007 EXECUTE 'ATTIME.VERB' 0008 CRT '@TIME=':@TIME 0009 SLEEP 2 0010 PERFORM 'ATTIME.VERB' 0011 CRT '@TIME=':@TIME 0012 SLEEP 2 0013 CRT '-' 0014 EXECUTE \LIST VOC SELECT EVAL @TIME\ ; * arbitrary file item 0015 CRT '-' 0016 CRT '@TIME=':@TIME 0017 SLEEP 2 0018 CRT '-' 0019 PERFORM \LIST VOC SELECT EVAL @TIME\ ; * arbitrary file item 0020 CRT '-' 0021 CRT '@TIME=':@TIME ATTIME.SUB 0001 SUBROUTINE ATTIME.SUB 0002 CRT 'STARTING ATTIME.SUB' 0003 CRT '@TIME=':@TIME 0004 CRT 'RETURNING' 0005 RETURN ATTIME.VERB 0001 CRT ' ':@SENTENCE 0002 CRT '@TIME=':@TIME 0003 STOPM 'STOPPING ATTIME.VERB' RUN BP ATTIME.TOP STARTING ATTIME.TOP @TIME=64814 STARTING ATTIME.SUB @TIME=64814 RETURNING @TIME=64814 ATTIME.VERB @TIME=64818 STOPPING ATTIME.VERB @TIME=64814 ATTIME.VERB @TIME=64814 STOPPING ATTIME.VERB @TIME=64814 - LIST VOC SELECT EVAL @TIME 06:00:22pm 22 Aug 2009 PAGE1 VOC.@TIME. SELECT 64822 1 records listed. - @TIME=64814 - LIST VOC SELECT EVAL @TIME 06:00:24pm 22 Aug 2009 PAGE1 VOC.@TIME. SELECT 64814 1 records listed. - @TIME=64814 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] SBClient 5.3.8 on 64 bit vista
Try this one, but... if it doesn't work go to the IBM front page and search for Unidata Clients. http://www14.software.ibm.com/download/data/web/en_US/trialprograms/Z955364D40826J60.html?S_TACT=104CBW71 This is the Unidata 7.1 clients; DC is in there with ... a whole bunch of other stuff. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Better and Better Application - Launching today Friday 8/21/09 -- Browser instructions
Having been on the board in a past life - for what little I did contribute - I can say that the U2UG board and volunteers work hard and should be commended for their efforts. That said, can we all please stay focused on the results without getting personal about it? Personally, I think this BB thing is an excellent idea and I'm looking forward to taking a peek at it. I also think that we as an industry need to be more forward thinking in adopting web technology, and I'm pleased that the board is making strong moves in that direction. (And hey, for this worldwide group, it just makes good sense.) This browser incompatibility issue rings oddly familiar, reminiscent of applications throughout history that only worked properly on Wyse50's or some other CRT. Anyone remember PROF on the old Reality systems? Early releases of that product were the poster child for terminal incompatibility (pun intended). And you know what? We worked through all that. Now we're faced with different terminal emulators going by the names of IE, FF, Chrome, Opera, Safari, and a few others. Sure, the whole connection method has changed - stateful telnet going the way of stateless http - yet at the most fundamental level, it's all just bits on a wire talking to some device on the other end. Too simple, you say? I disagree. It *is*simple. It's the same problems we've addressed before and that we will address again and again as the technology landscape evolves. Having established this context, I do have concerns about the premise that we need Microsoft technology to do the web properly or that Microsoft technologies give us something that we couldn't get any other way. Of course, the same could be said of IBM or Oracle or ... name any company here. As solution providers we need options, and therefore the best thing our vendors can do is to give us more options to do what we need to do as quickly, efficiently, and cost-effectively as possible. To that end, what the BB group is doing is positive steps in the right direction. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Better and Better Application - Launching today Friday 8/21/09 -- Browser instructions
Better Better works fine in IE6, under Parallels on an iMac. You IE8 folks are just way too far ahead of the curve. (smile) (for those who don't like emoticons) -- Louie In Seattle ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Mixed Case UV Basic Programming Standards.
I like all upper case because I believe programs should be shouted when reading aloud. I also like the comment that said it works on all platforms. And the one that said they had programs from last century. I don't like all lower case because there is no quick and easy way to tell if an author meant sometimes lower or sometime slower when writing sometimeslower. In third grade, with my first script homework assignment, I joined all my words together, because that's what my mom's writing looked like. My paper came back with about 500 red slashes, one between every word. I've hated words joined together without space or punctuation delimiters ever since. -- Louie In Seattle “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. -- Krishnamurti ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Better and Better Application - Launching today Friday 8/21/09 -- Browser instructions
Kevin King wrote: Having been on the board in a past life - for what little I did contribute - I can say that the U2UG board and volunteers work hard and should be commended for their efforts. That said, can we all please stay focused on the results without getting personal about it? I've yet to get personal about anything relating to this. However, I'm free to voice my opinion on the subject since public inquiries were requested. I'm all for the project, provided the masses can actually use it. Personally, I think this BB thing is an excellent idea and I'm looking forward to taking a peek at it. I also think that we as an industry need to be more forward thinking in adopting web technology, and I'm pleased that the board is making strong moves in that direction. (And hey, for this worldwide group, it just makes good sense.) Kevin, we both know the current state of the industry. It is moving forward (slowly), but is this vendor-specific forum of comments really going to affect the rest of the industry? It's great for IBM and for U2 and I'm all for it. I have no interest in seeing any volunteer project fail, as I've seen plenty of my own get buried in the bit bucket from a lack of interest and/or lack of vision. We need to be realistic here, though. Chrome, Safari, Opera, and Fire Fox are just as popular as IE and are the preferred or only browser available on many desktops. Luckily, there is a fix for Fire Fox. What about all of the Mac users, though? Chrome is growing in popularity as well, so it can not be ignored. Look at the iPhone's explosion. It has Safari, not IE. Would it not be nice to be able to submit bug reports and feature requests from your iPhone, waiting at the airport? The same can be said for all web-capable mobile devices that don't run some mobile version of Windows, which is a large percentage. This browser incompatibility issue rings oddly familiar, reminiscent of applications throughout history that only worked properly on Wyse50's or some other CRT. Anyone remember PROF on the old Reality systems? Early releases of that product were the poster child for terminal incompatibility (pun intended). And you know what? We worked through all that. Yeah, we ended up using emulation software that could handle them all. A decade later the web grew up and became useful for businesses. There are browser emulators available, but the only people that really use those are web devs. I just don't buy your logic here. Now we're faced with different terminal emulators going by the names of IE, FF, Chrome, Opera, Safari, and a few others. Sure, the whole connection method has changed - stateful telnet going the way of stateless http - yet at the most fundamental level, it's all just bits on a wire talking to some device on the other end. Too simple, you say? I disagree. It *is*simple. It's the same problems we've addressed before and that we will address again and again as the technology landscape evolves. The difference here is that there _is_ (and has been for a long time) a standard and it's called W3C. There is no incompatibility unless you develop outside of the W3C standards. AJAX and various other Javascript-based development methods (JQuery is great!) can work with all W3C compliant browsers if the standards are followed. Some extra coding is required and some features may have to be dropped or simulated using other methods to implement the desktop-like features users want now. Heck XHTML is the standard now and all of the mentioned browsers support it along with AJAX and CSS. I think even Konquerer will properly run AJAX sites, provided the site doesn't use IE-only features. Having established this context, I do have concerns about the premise that we need Microsoft technology to do the web properly or that Microsoft technologies give us something that we couldn't get any other way. Of course, the same could be said of IBM or Oracle or ... name any company here. As solution providers we need options, and therefore the best thing our vendors can do is to give us more options to do what we need to do as quickly, efficiently, and cost-effectively as possible. To that end, what the BB group is doing is positive steps in the right direction. ___ Yes. It's great, as a starting step. I just hate to see a ton of work go into a framework that is so browser restrictive. GlenB ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
