Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would wanttelnet-based tools - dictionaries

2012-02-18 Thread Tony Gravagno 
Can we have a fresh thread for that? 

> Quick pop quiz. How do people build and maintain dictionaries?

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Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools - dictionaries

2012-02-18 Thread Ed Clark 
honestly I don't do a lot of dictionary maintenance. I have each attribute 
defined, and translates to define inter-file associations, but If I need a 
different width/format/heading or unique expression for a query I use the 
FMT/CONV/EVAL keywords and create them on the fly.

On Feb 18, 2012, at 4:53 PM, Boydell, Stuart wrote:

> Quick pop quiz. How do people build and maintain dictionaries?
> 
> I have used Doug's XLr8 tool, SB+ and ED.
> I haven't found one that allows the use of standard revision control systems 
> (meaning anything appearing in Wikipedia's list of revision control systems) 
> out of the box, though Doug's may get there. (interested too, who does use 
> SCM (including SJ+) for their dicts and file creation scripts and other 
> "admin" artifacts?
> 
> Of the three I like using the Xlr8/Eclipse GUI and grid makes for (IMHO) 
> clean, consistent dicts and very easy to look at as opposed to LIST.DICT 
> which in it's original form has to be one of THE most archaic features of the 
> environment. Especially in a 25 x 80 green screen.
> 
> Stuart.
> 
> From: Symeon Breen
> Sent: 18-Feb-12 21:15
> To: 'U2 Users List'
> Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want 
> telnet-based tools
> 
> I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or
> ssh)   and that they are using some form of GUI editor.
> 
> Personally I know a lot of programmers in multiple disciplines - nearly all
> of them have eclipse installed, not one of them uses it as an ide. There are
> so many much much better environments for java or .net, or php etc.  The BDT
> is eclipse based and that is a throwback to the IBM days. Please people look
> beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there.
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch
> Sent: 18 February 2012 02:48
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want
> telnet-based tools
> 
> Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that
> uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem.
> It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different
> protocol has.  The fact remains for me it is the presentation.
> 
> Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used "...in order
> to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and
> services."  It is the presentation that catches our eye.
> 
> When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind
> whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but
> not in good way.  You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more
> productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen
> that editor does not that elegance.
> 
> When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars,
> tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars.  My screen looks
> like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP
> developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use.  I have
> built in Search.  I have built in Version control.  I have built in the
> ability to have two different accounts open.  I have the ability see my
> variables and internal subroutines.  I can close those subroutines by click
> on the minus and opening up with a plus.  I can double click on a variable
> and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program.
> 
> The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous
> compile.  I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make,
> Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type.
> If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing.  This alone
> is worth the price of admission.
> 
> That perception is what I've been preaching about for years.  It can impact
> you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization.
> 
> Regards,
> Doug
> www.u2logic.com/tools.html
> "XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata"
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Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools - dictionaries

2012-02-18 Thread Boydell, Stuart 
Quick pop quiz. How do people build and maintain dictionaries?

I have used Doug's XLr8 tool, SB+ and ED.
I haven't found one that allows the use of standard revision control systems 
(meaning anything appearing in Wikipedia's list of revision control systems) 
out of the box, though Doug's may get there. (interested too, who does use SCM 
(including SJ+) for their dicts and file creation scripts and other "admin" 
artifacts?

Of the three I like using the Xlr8/Eclipse GUI and grid makes for (IMHO) clean, 
consistent dicts and very easy to look at as opposed to LIST.DICT which in it's 
original form has to be one of THE most archaic features of the environment. 
Especially in a 25 x 80 green screen.

Stuart.

From: Symeon Breen
Sent: 18-Feb-12 21:15
To: 'U2 Users List'
Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want 
telnet-based tools

I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or
ssh)   and that they are using some form of GUI editor.

Personally I know a lot of programmers in multiple disciplines - nearly all
of them have eclipse installed, not one of them uses it as an ide. There are
so many much much better environments for java or .net, or php etc.  The BDT
is eclipse based and that is a throwback to the IBM days. Please people look
beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there.



-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch
Sent: 18 February 2012 02:48
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want
telnet-based tools

Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that
uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem.
 It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different
protocol has.  The fact remains for me it is the presentation.

Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used "...in order
to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and
services."  It is the presentation that catches our eye.

When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind
whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but
not in good way.  You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more
productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen
that editor does not that elegance.

When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars,
tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars.  My screen looks
like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP
developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use.  I have
built in Search.  I have built in Version control.  I have built in the
ability to have two different accounts open.  I have the ability see my
variables and internal subroutines.  I can close those subroutines by click
on the minus and opening up with a plus.  I can double click on a variable
and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program.

The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous
compile.  I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make,
Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type.
 If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing.  This alone
is worth the price of admission.

That perception is what I've been preaching about for years.  It can impact
you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization.

Regards,
Doug
www.u2logic.com/tools.html
"XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata"
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Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools

2012-02-18 Thread Bill Haskett 

Symeon:

"/Please people look beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and 
easier) world out there./"


Since you ask so nicely, I'll have to take a look!  :-)

Bill

P.S.  I don't much like Eclipse either; not too impressed with BDT and 
could never get Dougs tool to install properly.



- Original Message -
*From:* syme...@gmail.com
*To:* 'U2 Users List' 
*Date:* 2/18/2012 2:14 AM
*Subject:* Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want 
telnet-based tools

I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or
ssh)   and that they are using some form of GUI editor.

Personally I know a lot of programmers in multiple disciplines - nearly all
of them have eclipse installed, not one of them uses it as an ide. There are
so many much much better environments for java or .net, or php etc.  The BDT
is eclipse based and that is a throwback to the IBM days. Please people look
beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there.



-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch
Sent: 18 February 2012 02:48
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want
telnet-based tools

Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that
uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem.
  It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different
protocol has.  The fact remains for me it is the presentation.

Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used "...in order
to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and
services."  It is the presentation that catches our eye.

When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind
whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but
not in good way.  You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more
productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen
that editor does not that elegance.

When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars,
tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars.  My screen looks
like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP
developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use.  I have
built in Search.  I have built in Version control.  I have built in the
ability to have two different accounts open.  I have the ability see my
variables and internal subroutines.  I can close those subroutines by click
on the minus and opening up with a plus.  I can double click on a variable
and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program.

The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous
compile.  I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make,
Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type.
  If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing.  This alone
is worth the price of admission.

That perception is what I've been preaching about for years.  It can impact
you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization.

Regards,
Doug
www.u2logic.com/tools.html
"XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata"
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Re: [U2] mvToolbox

2012-02-18 Thread Jerry 
I agree completely with this. Except the aversion to anything PICK. From 
what I've noticed there is still an aversion because it is a mystery to 
them. Most of the newbies to business have been brought up on MS and 
anything else to them is old school. What used to be "You can't go wrong 
when buying IBM" has changed to "You can go wrong when buying 
Microsoft". Our vars have discovered a big business converting U2 to SQL 
Server and are taking advantage of it. It would help if Rocket, and the 
other flavors, had a policy in place that would state that they would 
loose their var status if they didn't also sell a product that ran on 
the database. It would force them to want to sell more copies if they 
needed it to stay in business.


Jerry

On 2/17/2012 1:24 AM, David Jordan wrote:


Whilst I understand where you are coming from Doug.  I think we get too caught 
up that telnet is negative.   Microsoft had to bend to demand for a command 
line system for Windows because the tech guys said it was too slow to do things 
in Windows forms.   When I talk to Oracle databases, SQL Server database, I am 
still working with command prompt windows with some flash around them.   
Remember that easily 40% of code is still written in Cobol.  There are 
mainframes in multinationals across the world still using green screen systems 
and paying a lot of money for them.  Systems administrators across the world 
are driving unix, linux and windows systems through command prompt windows.   
The concern about telnet is more in the heads of U2 developers than in the 
customer base.

It is like the aversion to the word PICK, people are nervous about a negative 
reaction from mainstream IT.   But we have a new generation of IT people who 
have never heard of PICK, never mind having a closed mind to it.   Rather than 
getting caught up debating whether people are against telnet, we should promote 
its positives.   I have seen a company just buy a brand new cobol GL system.  
If they would buy a Cobol system, why wouldn't they buy a PICK GL.   We are our 
own worst critics.

If anyone has worked in a mainframe site and saw some of the systems they are 
working with, they would be shocked.  I think we have an incredible opportunity 
to grow U2 business in the current economic environment, if it was not for us 
tripping ourselves up by underselling U2 technology.

My 2c

David Jordan
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Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools

2012-02-18 Thread Symeon Breen 
I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or
ssh)   and that they are using some form of GUI editor. 

Personally I know a lot of programmers in multiple disciplines - nearly all
of them have eclipse installed, not one of them uses it as an ide. There are
so many much much better environments for java or .net, or php etc.  The BDT
is eclipse based and that is a throwback to the IBM days. Please people look
beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there.

 

-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch
Sent: 18 February 2012 02:48
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want
telnet-based tools

Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that
uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem.
 It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different
protocol has.  The fact remains for me it is the presentation.

Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used "...in order
to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and
services."  It is the presentation that catches our eye.

When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind
whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but
not in good way.  You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more
productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen
that editor does not that elegance.

When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars,
tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars.  My screen looks
like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP
developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use.  I have
built in Search.  I have built in Version control.  I have built in the
ability to have two different accounts open.  I have the ability see my
variables and internal subroutines.  I can close those subroutines by click
on the minus and opening up with a plus.  I can double click on a variable
and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program.

The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous
compile.  I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make,
Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type.
 If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing.  This alone
is worth the price of admission.

That perception is what I've been preaching about for years.  It can impact
you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization.

Regards,
Doug
www.u2logic.com/tools.html
"XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata"
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Re: [U2] mvToolbox

2012-02-18 Thread Symeon Breen 
Having worked in  java shop for 10 years most of the runtime of their java
code on linux was run and administered from the shell. The shell of course
was accessible via telnet/ssh.

Any server technology as opposed to client will probably need this as it is
all about automation, and shell access. Much of what happens in the u2 world
is server technology - you have a database and application to which multiple
clients connect.

So to look over someones shoulder and see a terminal window with lots of
fancy commands, is not a look of old fashioned out of date systems, but the
look of most server systems today.



-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wjhonson
Sent: 17 February 2012 17:09
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox


"Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't
do easily with windows,"

Just the other day I did a
del *.txt

pretty trivial to do at the DOS prompt.  Rather more cumbersome to do in a
Window click click click point, select click click select point click.





-Original Message-
From: George Gallen 
To: U2 Users List 
Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 6:20 am
Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox


Why? Because it has almost no overhead, and has the most flexibility.
Can the 3 year old (assuming they understood the process) select items from
one ile based on selection
  Then pull items from another file using a related ID and save that list.
Perform that again on two other files and save that list.
Merge those two, and then push that list into an application that emails a
file The above would take 2-3 min to do with telnet.
IT would take significantly longer to do with a GUI front end.
telnet is excellent for administration and development. Once you know what
you ant, then you an use the GUI to setup a nice interface for those that
want to point and lick.
Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't do
asily with windows, r without writing/buying an application.
George
-Original Message-
rom: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org]
n Behalf Of Doug Averch
ent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:17 PM
o: U2 Users List
ubject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox

hy are we using telnet in
2 as our main form of communication?
In today's world a 3 year old can use an iPad to access a Universe or nidata
database application.  We sell an Alpaca herd management that runs n the
iPad and our granddaughter used the application "Who's your daddy?"
o find out who the alpaca's daddy is.  Sorry, another digression.
Regards,
oug
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