Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Prakash Advani]

On 04/10/2011 10:48 PM, Nitesh Mistry wrote:

On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 10:31:40PM +0530, Ramnarayan.K wrote:

wonder if we could have sponsors for the local cd shipit - not
corporate sponsors but individual sponsors

am willing to put some money into a fund if such a fund is created.

Running a centralised shipit program would be too costly as well as
requiring dedicated manpower. Instead a decentralised system like filling
up a wiki page of those who have the CDs and those wanting one is more cost
effective and also improves 'the social network' within the community.

Also, by setting up a shipit like service, people would expect better or
professional artwork on CDs and CD covers which would up the cost further.


My suggestion would be to charge a small fee to cover replication cost. 
I has two benefits.


1. When user pays even Rs 10 for a CD, he/she will install it because 
they now see value. I am sure the software in the CD is worth much 
more.. so if people are not wiling to pay a small fee, then they won't 
use the free CD.


2. It would cover the costs and hence make your activity sustainable.

My two paisa :)

BTW people can still get Ubuntu CDs from Chip/Digit magazines.. which 
often bundle the latest distro.. in fact now most of the magazines 
bundle Ubuntu CDs.


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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Nitesh Mistry]

On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 10:31:40PM +0530, Ramnarayan.K wrote:
> wonder if we could have sponsors for the local cd shipit - not
> corporate sponsors but individual sponsors
> 
> am willing to put some money into a fund if such a fund is created.

Running a centralised shipit program would be too costly as well as
requiring dedicated manpower. Instead a decentralised system like filling
up a wiki page of those who have the CDs and those wanting one is more cost
effective and also improves 'the social network' within the community.

Also, by setting up a shipit like service, people would expect better or
professional artwork on CDs and CD covers which would up the cost further.


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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Ramnarayan.K]

On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 10:24 PM, Nitesh Mistry
 wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 07, 2011 at 08:42:44PM +0530, Onkar Shinde wrote:
>> What we need is a good way to distribute the CDs at minimal cost and a
>> system to keep track of who has what.
>> Should we focus on developing some online app (as part of our website)
>> to do this? I am fine with wiki based tracking.
>
> We already have this page [0] where we used to update the CDs that we have.
> We can start planning something on the similar lines while designing the
> new website.
>
> I hope Maitreya is reading this :)
>
> [0] http://www.ubuntu-in.info/wiki/CDRequest

wonder if we could have sponsors for the local cd shipit - not
corporate sponsors but individual sponsors

am willing to put some money into a fund if such a fund is created.

ram

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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Nitesh Mistry]

On Thu, Apr 07, 2011 at 08:42:44PM +0530, Onkar Shinde wrote:
> What we need is a good way to distribute the CDs at minimal cost and a
> system to keep track of who has what.
> Should we focus on developing some online app (as part of our website)
> to do this? I am fine with wiki based tracking.

We already have this page [0] where we used to update the CDs that we have.
We can start planning something on the similar lines while designing the
new website.

I hope Maitreya is reading this :)

[0] http://www.ubuntu-in.info/wiki/CDRequest


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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Sanjay Bhangar]

On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 3:30 PM, Manish Sinha  wrote:

> 
>
> Anyway since you did not answer my questions, I conclude you gave up.
>
>
chill, this is not a boxing match :)
I think the discussion was good - it's always good to see some debate and
learn some things in the process.

Am happy to download / burn CDs, Khar / Worli in Mumbai.

cheers,
Sanjay
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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Manish Sinha]

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 8:56 PM, Stereotactic  wrote:
> Exactly. Many new comes are not aware of this pleasant discussion here :)
> Thats one thing I rallied about till it got "hijacked" :) No offence
> meant!!!
>
> It's a bad sign but can't be helped though.

The thread was hijacked at your first reply itself, where OP stated
why he is sad about Shipit being stopped and you posted comments. That
comment itself had no relevance to the OP post. It contained
* Unity v/s GNOME
* Rolling release - Debian
* Paid software being bad

Anyway since you did not answer my questions, I conclude you gave up.

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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Narendra Diwate]

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 8:56 PM, Stereotactic  wrote:

>  Exactly. Many new comes are not aware of this pleasant discussion here :)
> Thats one thing I rallied about till it got "hijacked" :) No offence
> meant!!!
>
>   It's a bad sign but can't be helped though.
>

On release day or immediately after if those with high speed connections can
download and post their details on a list that can be maintained city/state
wise, those that need the images can contact and either have a CD written or
image copied to USB.

Now I have fast enough internet to do this. Any one wants I have  Ubuntu
10.10 AMD64 desktop and 10.04.2 in both AMD64 and i386 versions in addition
to many other distos incl debian both arch. I am in Hyderabd. The debian
images are regularly updated using jigdo. Its the single CD image with
LXDE+XFCE.
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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Stereotactic]

On 04/07/2011 07:57 PM, Narendra Diwate wrote:
On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 7:47 PM, Ramnarayan.K > wrote:



a registered LUG can request for CD's to be distributed by them.


Yes, but how many new prospective users/fence sitters know about 
LUG's/Local vendors/where to try. I didn't. The only place I thought 
of then was IT mags with CD/DVD that MAY contain a Linux Distro and 
MAY contain one that I have heard/willing to try.
Exactly. Many new comes are not aware of this pleasant discussion here 
:) Thats one thing I rallied about till it got "hijacked" :) No offence 
meant!!!


It's a bad sign but can't be helped though.
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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Onkar Shinde]

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 8:02 PM, Narendra Diwate
 wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Manish Sinha  wrote:
>>
>> When I was in college I was on 128Kbps connection which used to take
>> some 16-18 hrs to download a 700MB ISO.
>
>
> Agree . Its just that many don't know how to download correctly. If they use
> their browser to download, then GOD save them if the download breaks.

I have a fast enough internet connection using which I can download
whole CD for new release in 3-4 hours. I usually have Desktop and
Alternate CDs for latest release (i386, Ubuntu only, not K/X/L) on
release day.

I am pretty sure there are few others with same download capacity.
What we need is a good way to distribute the CDs at minimal cost and a
system to keep track of who has what.
Should we focus on developing some online app (as part of our website)
to do this? I am fine with wiki based tracking.


Onkar
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Don't ask why - the reason is the same.

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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Narendra Diwate]

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Manish Sinha  wrote:

> When I was in college I was on 128Kbps connection which used to take
> some 16-18 hrs to download a 700MB ISO.
>

Agree . Its just that many don't know how to download correctly. If they use
their browser to download, then GOD save them if the download breaks.

Regards

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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Narendra Diwate]

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 7:47 PM, Ramnarayan.K  wrote:

>
> a registered LUG can request for CD's to be distributed by them.
>

Yes, but how many new prospective users/fence sitters know about LUG's/Local
vendors/where to try. I didn't. The only place I thought of then was IT mags
with CD/DVD that MAY contain a Linux Distro and MAY contain one that I have
heard/willing to try.

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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Manish Sinha]

On 04/07/2011 07:37 PM, Narendra Diwate wrote:

Thats Bad News.

The only reason I am on this list and not on Fedora/any other distos's
is the fact that when I didn't have a Internet connection and couldn't
download, Ubuntu was the only one that would send me a CD. I asked for
and received a CD from I think 6.04 onwards and they stopped sending me
after 9.04 saying I have received quite a few. Fair enough.
But not fair for those in places and countries where Internet download
is impossible /too slow and people can't afford to buy the media.


When I was in college I was on 128Kbps connection which used to take
some 16-18 hrs to download a 700MB ISO.

I made full use of it. Now I don't order since I have 2Mbps connection.
If anyone is in Bangalore and has poor internet connection, then I
can provide them with CDs - any *supported* version.

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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Ramnarayan.K]

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 7:37 PM, Narendra Diwate
 wrote:
> Thats Bad News.
> The only reason I am on this list and not on Fedora/any other distos's is
> the fact that when I didn't have a Internet connection and couldn't
> download, Ubuntu was the only one that would send me a CD. I asked for and
> received a CD from I think 6.04 onwards and they stopped sending me after
> 9.04 saying I have received quite a few. Fair enough.
> But not fair for those in places and countries where Internet download is
> impossible /too slow and people can't afford to buy the media.

a registered LUG can request for CD's to be distributed by them.

ram

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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Narendra Diwate]

Thats Bad News.

The only reason I am on this list and not on Fedora/any other distos's is
the fact that when I didn't have a Internet connection and couldn't
download, Ubuntu was the only one that would send me a CD. I asked for and
received a CD from I think 6.04 onwards and they stopped sending me after
9.04 saying I have received quite a few. Fair enough.
But not fair for those in places and countries where Internet download is
impossible /too slow and people can't afford to buy the media.

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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Manish Sinha]

On 04/07/2011 02:48 PM, Stereotactic wrote:


Thats good. Still, it's main flagship was always Gnome and hence
there are

The most important upstream is still Debian, not GNOME (some-one
please correct me if wrong)

There was a talk about how little Canonical has supported Gnome (<1% of
the code base or whatever); it's all over the net so I wouldn't really
bother to prove my point.


Did you see it? I don't think you can because no such talk exists.
It was a blog post by Dave Neary.

If you understand the ecosystem so well, then you should be knowing
that it was a blog post and who posted it and when it was posted.

Instead you start with "There was a talk.."


The thread is *NOT* about rolling release. Please. It was, I repeat
again, the role of LUG's to spread the word for libre software. Despite
it's existence, I barely see any activity; heck, its not even mentioned
in the mainstream media. How many of us have made *ANY* effort to work
on those lines? Having a website or IRC presence alone does not count,
IMHO.


This discussion started from
"the best option is still to move on to the roots; i.e. Debian and I am
downloading the rolling release. "
Where did LUG come in picture? You were talking about Linux Mint and
Ubuntu's Update Manager.



:) First there is none; then there is "development version". Okay :)


It isn't calling a rolling release so it does not exist.
Using Development versions you can get the feel of rolling release



The idea is against proprietary standards. Against the concept of "paid
software" in the base operating system. I "*repeat again*" that no one
objects to Ubuntu One as a cloud service where users "*may*" pay for
whatever or if they are so concerned about syncing issues. Neither does
anyone object if there is anything for "paid support".


No one objects? Are you sure?

Paying for GPL software is also not wrong. People do pay. Humble Indie
bundle.


But it's against the proprietary standards and as I mentioned, stiffling
EULA's that are bound to come with it, one day or other.


Which "proprietary standards"? Example please.


In the long run, it would slowly compromise with the ideals of Debian
and
GNU.

How? All I find is talk and no evidence. You know when we talk about
Free we mean libre and not gratis.
Please head to http://gnu.org for more information

Again, it has no relevance to you assertions. Please try and understand
this. Canonical is profiteering from free code & turning on proprietary
standards without contribution back to community.


You still fail to explain how "it would slowly compromise with the
ideals of Debian and GNU"



The license is also "Terms and conditions" for using the software. I
hope you know this. Free software license are also as fancy to the
end-user as those 20 page long EULA.
Have you ever looked how long the full GPLv2 license is?

It's still "copyleft". I hate copyright in any manner whatsoever because
it's very nature is RESTRICTIVE. Sorry but the "length" of the licence
has nothing to do with it :) At least, it doesn't incapacitate the user!
GPL3/4/5 or whatever version may be 1000+ pages or whatever, still it
keeps the "freedom" intact.


You know without copyright, copyleft cannot exist?

Sheesh! Do you even know what is copyright. It is a right or
ownership. You probably hate the license  under which those software
are distributed.

You know that all code under copyleft license is also copyrighted?


Ha! Glad you did :) Ignorance is bliss :) Atleast, I made your day :)


I just posted about your ignorance related to copyright and copyleft
just above. Probably you made your own day. :)


It has already moved towards Unity and slowly poisoning
it's relation with other companies in the ecosystem refusing to play
ball
with others.

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.. http://goo.gl/NoyJS

:) http://imgur.com/kBhRq Hope this helps the attitude of some people :)


Atleast I don't go around writing conspiracy theories and blasting off
people (unless they spread FUD).


Perhaps it has *balls* enough but the future is going to stormy
for all of them.

Reading this same shit for past 5 years. Nothing happened

Reference to above quote; you are unlikely to see anything in the long
run/future :) So I'd let that pass again.


One sample: I have been hearing since day 1 that next release of Ubuntu
will see a mass exodus. It see it for every release. Nothing happens.

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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Manish Sinha]

On 04/07/2011 01:59 PM, Kingsly John wrote:

You should probably read things again with an open mind.  Just because this
is the Ubuntu-IN list doesn't mean we don't have the right to criticize
things we don't agree with.


I never said you cannot criticize. Even FUD can be disguised to be
"personal opinion".

Did he explain how it would "slowly compromise with the ideals of Debian 
and GNU" ?

He did not!


And while FSF says it is okay to pay for "libre" software, they don't
advocate paying/using propreitary software.


Did I claim this? They just don't have problems. They have clearly said
that Free means libre to them and not gratis.


Ubuntu has allowed installing all kinds of non-libre drivers. So they have
always been divergent from the philosophy of the FSF.


You taking away the freedom of installing non-libre driver makes a
distro more free?
Before Squeeze Debian too had non-free bits in their kernel which was
fine. FSF's ideals are too tough to follow and be relevant at the same
time (at this age)

Same goes with Debian. Zach has clearly said that they disagree with
RMS's stand on contrib repo.


And Canonical have stated their objective of moving towards "open core" with
Unity being a first step, which means more proprietary extensions are to be
expected.

And from http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2010/10/17/shuttleworth-admits-it.html


Did you read this post 10 times? It is a SHITLOAD of LIES and FUD.
Qt was not an open-core model but a dual-licensing model. Even RMS said
somewhere that selling exceptions is OK.

Mark had praised (in the IRC session) Trolltech for their model in
which they provide Qt for FOSS community and sell exceptions and 
sustain themselves. This was a good way of making sure that Qt

development continues.

Later I learnt from Kuhn supporters that he has apologized for his
mistake. I cannot find his apology anywhere.



"Canonical, Ltd. refuses to promise to keep the software copylefted and never
proprietarize it"

It doesn't matter if they haven't gone/never go proprietary, the very fact
that they want copyright assignments without giving up their rights to ship
proprietary/non-libre versions of the software speaks volumes about where
they stand in terms of their commitment to "libre" software.


I am not a Canonical employee. Catch one and talk to him on this matter.

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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Stereotactic]

On 04/07/2011 01:59 PM, Kingsly John wrote:

+++ Manish Sinha [2011-04-07 13:10:53]:


In the long run, it would slowly compromise with the ideals of Debian and
GNU.

How? All I find is talk and no evidence. You know when we talk about
Free we mean libre and not gratis.
Please head to http://gnu.org for more information

You should probably read things again with an open mind.  Just because this
is the Ubuntu-IN list doesn't mean we don't have the right to criticize
things we don't agree with.


Couldn't agree more!!

And while FSF says it is okay to pay for "libre" software, they don't
advocate paying/using propreitary software.
I think it refers to software as a service. For example, paid support. A 
developer can charge any premium for the same if necessary. But code 
ought to be free (and copyleft). This has huge implications for India 
(and other developing nations) specifically in an era where software 
patents are being used overtly and covertly to lock up in litigations. 
This only raises the cost of development, modifications and spreading 
computing to disadvantaged groups or those affected by digital divide.

Ubuntu has allowed installing all kinds of non-libre drivers. So they have
always been divergent from the philosophy of the FSF.
If it helps to integrate in the "mainstream", it's okay. Unfortunately, 
proprietary drivers abound the mainstream (e.g. flash) and thats where 
the big problem is. One can't be exclusivist and neither we can expect 
the ordinary users to be. I think HTML 5 is a big step in this direction 
to get rid of adobe branded crapware for good.

And Canonical have stated their objective of moving towards "open core" with
Unity being a first step, which means more proprietary extensions are to be
expected.lop

And from http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2010/10/17/shuttleworth-admits-it.html

Brilliant write up.

"Canonical, Ltd. refuses to promise to keep the software copylefted and never
proprietarize it"

It doesn't matter if they haven't gone/never go proprietary, the very fact
that they want copyright assignments without giving up their rights to ship
proprietary/non-libre versions of the software speaks volumes about where
they stand in terms of their commitment to "libre" software.
Exactly. Unfortunately, certain section of readers are unable to grasp 
this subtle distinction. Thanks for pointing this out :)


The idea behind raking up this issue is that although this group is full 
of smart people but we need to do more instead of cutting each other's 
throat in philosophical banter. Linux offers a reasonable choice of 
distros, their work arounds and a helpful community. However, the 
challanges in India are different. Because of pathetic infrastructure, 
digital divide is a reality that would get worse with time. We can't let 
a corporation get better off by sucking up the free contributions and 
pushing their own version of ecosystem.


This is the point that needs to be addressed.

Kingsly


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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Stereotactic]

On 04/07/2011 01:10 PM, Manish Sinha wrote:

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 10:29 AM, Stereotactic  wrote:

On 04/07/2011 02:40 AM, Manish Sinha wrote:

On 04/06/2011 07:53 PM, Stereotactic wrote:

This debate can *never* be settled; so let it be.

True. So don't bring it up again ever if you can't defend.

Philosophical arguments can never be agreed upon. In the initial thread 
I had rallied against the role of LUG's. How useless they can be if it 
concerns the spread of libre software. Neither am defending; but well if 
the context of the mail escapes your notice, I can't really help it :(

Thats good. Still, it's main flagship was always Gnome and hence there are

The most important upstream is still Debian, not GNOME (some-one
please correct me if wrong)
There was a talk about how little Canonical has supported Gnome (<1% of 
the code base or whatever); it's all over the net so I wouldn't really 
bother to prove my point.

Thats where the power of choice really is. However, Mark has mentioned
somewhere that Ubuntu *might* become one; its an unsettled question.

He hasn't mentioned anywhere AFAIK. Instead, Rick Spencer, Desktop
Engineering Manager has stated that Ubuntu is not moving to rolling
release.

The thread is *NOT* about rolling release. Please. It was, I repeat 
again, the role of LUG's to spread the word for libre software. Despite 
it's existence, I barely see any activity; heck, its not even mentioned 
in the mainstream media. How many of us have made *ANY* effort to work 
on those lines? Having a website or IRC presence alone does not count, 
IMHO.

That's an abberation. Again your opinion.

It isn't opinion, but experience.
You voice opinion, not claim opinion. If there is a claim, then it
means it is based on some experience.


Ha! I'd let this pass :) No issues.

Rolling release can be based on Unstable or Testing versions; Unstable is
not so cool as testing really is. But I let that pass. And I mention *again*
that rolling release is *not* the point of debate.

Ubuntu does have rolling versions. It is called development versions.
You keep on updating it. Try it out.


:) First there is none; then there is "development version". Okay :)

Whatever you say, Ubuntu would have never gained so much popularity
with rolling release ever.

Your opinion.

Not opinion, but truth.

As per you? Okay :)

Linux; it's installer is best in the ecosystem. Period.
I am NOT objecting to say Ubuntu One as a service in the cloud, for example.
That's an additional module, not really a part of the main OS. Canonical has
full right to charge whatever it deems fit in the cloud. Paid software in
software centre really is pushing the commerce in user's desktops.

So what is wrong in users wanting to buy software? If they want, let
them buy. If you don't want to buy, don't buy.

The idea is against proprietary standards. Against the concept of "paid 
software" in the base operating system. I "*repeat again*" that no one 
objects to Ubuntu One as a cloud service where users "*may*" pay for 
whatever or if they are so concerned about syncing issues. Neither does 
anyone object if there is anything for "paid support".


But it's against the proprietary standards and as I mentioned, stiffling 
EULA's that are bound to come with it, one day or other.

In the long run, it would slowly compromise with the ideals of Debian and
GNU.

How? All I find is talk and no evidence. You know when we talk about
Free we mean libre and not gratis.
Please head to http://gnu.org for more information
Again, it has no relevance to you assertions. Please try and understand 
this. Canonical is profiteering from free code & turning on proprietary 
standards without contribution back to community.

A non-techie user (as per your definition) would again be oblivious of
"fancy terms and conditions"; once the critical mass, in terms of users, is
reached, there would perhaps be no stopping Canonical to implement it's own
(jaundiced) terms.

The license is also "Terms and conditions" for using the software. I
hope you know this. Free software license are also as fancy to the
end-user as those 20 page long EULA.
Have you ever looked how long the full GPLv2 license is?
It's still "copyleft". I hate copyright in any manner whatsoever because 
it's very nature is RESTRICTIVE. Sorry but the "length" of the licence 
has nothing to do with it :) At least, it doesn't incapacitate the user! 
GPL3/4/5 or whatever version may be 1000+ pages or whatever, still it 
keeps the "freedom" intact.

Anyway I had a good laugh. Nice conspiracy theory.

Ha! Glad you did :) Ignorance is bliss :) Atleast, I made your day :)

It has already moved towards Unity and slowly poisoning
it's relation with other companies in the ecosystem refusing to play ball
with others.

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.. http://goo.gl/NoyJS

:) http://imgur.com/kBhRq  Hope this helps the attitude of some people :)

Perhaps it has *balls* enough but the future is going to stormy
for all of them.

Reading this 

Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Kingsly John]

+++ Manish Sinha [2011-04-07 13:10:53]:

> > In the long run, it would slowly compromise with the ideals of Debian and
> > GNU.
> 
> How? All I find is talk and no evidence. You know when we talk about
> Free we mean libre and not gratis.
> Please head to http://gnu.org for more information

You should probably read things again with an open mind.  Just because this
is the Ubuntu-IN list doesn't mean we don't have the right to criticize
things we don't agree with.

And while FSF says it is okay to pay for "libre" software, they don't
advocate paying/using propreitary software.

Ubuntu has allowed installing all kinds of non-libre drivers. So they have
always been divergent from the philosophy of the FSF.

And Canonical have stated their objective of moving towards "open core" with
Unity being a first step, which means more proprietary extensions are to be
expected.

And from http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2010/10/17/shuttleworth-admits-it.html

"Canonical, Ltd. refuses to promise to keep the software copylefted and never
proprietarize it"

It doesn't matter if they haven't gone/never go proprietary, the very fact
that they want copyright assignments without giving up their rights to ship
proprietary/non-libre versions of the software speaks volumes about where
they stand in terms of their commitment to "libre" software.

Kingsly
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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Manish Sinha]

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 10:29 AM, Stereotactic  wrote:
> On 04/07/2011 02:40 AM, Manish Sinha wrote:
>>
>> On 04/06/2011 07:53 PM, Stereotactic wrote:
> This debate can *never* be settled; so let it be.

True. So don't bring it up again ever if you can't defend.

> Thats good. Still, it's main flagship was always Gnome and hence there are

The most important upstream is still Debian, not GNOME (some-one
please correct me if wrong)

> Thats where the power of choice really is. However, Mark has mentioned
> somewhere that Ubuntu *might* become one; its an unsettled question.

He hasn't mentioned anywhere AFAIK. Instead, Rick Spencer, Desktop
Engineering Manager has stated that Ubuntu is not moving to rolling
release.

> That's an abberation. Again your opinion.

It isn't opinion, but experience.
You voice opinion, not claim opinion. If there is a claim, then it
means it is based on some experience.


> Rolling release can be based on Unstable or Testing versions; Unstable is
> not so cool as testing really is. But I let that pass. And I mention *again*
> that rolling release is *not* the point of debate.

Ubuntu does have rolling versions. It is called development versions.
You keep on updating it. Try it out.

>> Whatever you say, Ubuntu would have never gained so much popularity
>> with rolling release ever.
> Your opinion.

Not opinion, but truth.

> Linux; it's installer is best in the ecosystem. Period.
> I am NOT objecting to say Ubuntu One as a service in the cloud, for example.
> That's an additional module, not really a part of the main OS. Canonical has
> full right to charge whatever it deems fit in the cloud. Paid software in
> software centre really is pushing the commerce in user's desktops.

So what is wrong in users wanting to buy software? If they want, let
them buy. If you don't want to buy, don't buy.

> In the long run, it would slowly compromise with the ideals of Debian and
> GNU.

How? All I find is talk and no evidence. You know when we talk about
Free we mean libre and not gratis.
Please head to http://gnu.org for more information

> A non-techie user (as per your definition) would again be oblivious of
> "fancy terms and conditions"; once the critical mass, in terms of users, is
> reached, there would perhaps be no stopping Canonical to implement it's own
> (jaundiced) terms.

The license is also "Terms and conditions" for using the software. I
hope you know this. Free software license are also as fancy to the
end-user as those 20 page long EULA.
Have you ever looked how long the full GPLv2 license is?

Anyway I had a good laugh. Nice conspiracy theory.

> It has already moved towards Unity and slowly poisoning
> it's relation with other companies in the ecosystem refusing to play ball
> with others.

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.. http://goo.gl/NoyJS

> Perhaps it has *balls* enough but the future is going to stormy
> for all of them.

Reading this same shit for past 5 years. Nothing happened

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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Stereotactic]

On 04/07/2011 02:40 AM, Manish Sinha wrote:

On 04/06/2011 07:53 PM, Stereotactic wrote:

Yes. This is also a pointer towards a larger goal of moving towards an
ecosystem. First, they move towards Unity instead of supporting Gnome,
then they refuse to contribute much to the "code",


I think you read just too many blogs than actually investigating. I
know a lot of Ubuntu developers who are *actually* contributing
upstream.

This debate can *never* be settled; so let it be.


Another thing - Please understand the meaning of upstream first. Ubuntu
has more than one upstream and not only GNOME.
Thats good. Still, it's main flagship was always Gnome and hence there 
are going to be murmurs of protest at how it has abadoned the ship. It 
would take time for Unity to mature, no doubt, but the real interest 
would be focussed on how Gnome is able to battle it out.



the roots; i.e. Debian and I am downloading the rolling release.


Ubuntu isn't a rolling release and wont be ever. It should never be a
rolling release.

Thats where the power of choice really is. However, Mark has mentioned 
somewhere that Ubuntu *might* become one; its an unsettled question. 
However, thats NOT the point of debate here.
Rolling release dont work for non-techie user. 

That's an abberation. Again your opinion.
I never said that Ubuntu should be rolling release. Please read 
carefully. There are other options, as well though.

We geeks find it proud
to be using latest versions of everything and continuously updating our
system. Non-techies don't.
Rolling release can be based on Unstable or Testing versions; Unstable 
is not so cool as testing really is. But I let that pass. And I mention 
*again* that rolling release is *not* the point of debate.


Whatever you say, Ubuntu would have never gained so much popularity
with rolling release ever.

Your opinion.



Paid software in the software centre is a slow pointer towards
generation of ecosystem. Make the base OS free and let people pay for
the software.


Yes. It a pointer towards a good ecosystem. Paying for software is
not bad.
This is what I object to. Yes, Ubuntu made it easier for me to switch to 
Linux; it's installer is best in the ecosystem. Period.
I am NOT objecting to say Ubuntu One as a service in the cloud, for 
example. That's an additional module, not really a part of the main OS. 
Canonical has full right to charge whatever it deems fit in the cloud. 
Paid software in software centre really is pushing the commerce in 
user's desktops. When I use Ubuntu (as the base OS), I really care for 
whatever components I choose. Paid software, even when whet with the 
community, would invariably be tagged with terms of "fair use", sooner 
or later.


If someone wants to give software as a service, it's perfectly desirable 
solution; for example, paid support for individuals who are hard pressed 
for time to look for alternative means of support on forums or mailing 
lists or even IRC.


In the long run, it would slowly compromise with the ideals of Debian 
and GNU.


A non-techie user (as per your definition) would again be oblivious of 
"fancy terms and conditions"; once the critical mass, in terms of users, 
is reached, there would perhaps be no stopping Canonical to implement 
it's own (jaundiced) terms. It has already moved towards Unity and 
slowly poisoning it's relation with other companies in the ecosystem 
refusing to play ball with others. Perhaps it has *balls* enough but the 
future is going to stormy for all of them.


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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Manish Sinha]

On 04/06/2011 07:53 PM, Stereotactic wrote:

Yes. This is also a pointer towards a larger goal of moving towards an
ecosystem. First, they move towards Unity instead of supporting Gnome,
then they refuse to contribute much to the "code",


I think you read just too many blogs than actually investigating. I
know a lot of Ubuntu developers who are *actually* contributing
upstream.

Another thing - Please understand the meaning of upstream first. Ubuntu
has more than one upstream and not only GNOME.


the roots; i.e. Debian and I am downloading the rolling release.


Ubuntu isn't a rolling release and wont be ever. It should never be a
rolling release.

Rolling release dont work for non-techie user. We geeks find it proud
to be using latest versions of everything and continuously updating our
system. Non-techies don't.

Whatever you say, Ubuntu would have never gained so much popularity
with rolling release ever.


Paid software in the software centre is a slow pointer towards
generation of ecosystem. Make the base OS free and let people pay for
the software.


Yes. It a pointer towards a good ecosystem. Paying for software is
not bad.

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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Vishnoo]

On Wed, 2011-04-06 at 19:53 +0530, Stereotactic wrote:
> 
>  First, they move towards Unity instead of supporting Gnome,

 "Support" is too broad a term and using Unity as default does not mean
not supporting GNOME.

>  
> then they refuse to contribute much to the "code",

Do you have any evidence to back such statements, where did they
refuse ? 

> 
> Indeed, I broke off from the Ubuntu's quite useless  update system and 
> shifted to Linux mint; however, the best option is still to move on to 
> the roots; i.e. Debian and I am downloading the rolling release.
> 

You do realize that this is an *Ubuntu* India Local Community, right ?

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Re: [ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Stereotactic]

On 04/06/2011 06:04 PM, Ramnarayan.K wrote:

As some one who did order a few different versions it is a Sad though
but, allegedely true, i guess it has to come to an end some time and
hopefully people will find others ways of distributing CD's, and as
Canonical says technology has moved on :-)
Yes. This is also a pointer towards a larger goal of moving towards an 
ecosystem. First, they move towards Unity instead of supporting Gnome, 
then they refuse to contribute much to the "code", and now the Shipit 
programme is deemed to have generated enough momentum to have created a 
critical mass. How much interest would the local LUG's take to 
popularise the distro?


Indeed, I broke off from the Ubuntu's quite useless  update system and 
shifted to Linux mint; however, the best option is still to move on to 
the roots; i.e. Debian and I am downloading the rolling release.


Paid software in the software centre is a slow pointer towards 
generation of ecosystem. Make the base OS free and let people pay for 
the software.

though i don't think it will be easy for many internet users to
download even a few 100 megs - so i think we should have some more
reliable Ubuntu shippers making their presence felt.
It's hard to convince people to shift; till the time there is active 
buzz created, it is hard to convert people. Most of them equate Windows 
with "ease of use" because of default administrator priveleges and fact 
that mainstream applications are focussed on the MS desktop.

  and as for the suggestion canonical gives to Ubuntu LUG's, well thats
something we are doing any way

Now this is debatable and my real reason to post a reply. This is an 
assumption that most of us take for granted. I have seen poor response 
in engineering colleges churning out dead beat "coders" who are at best 
as script kiddies. Bangalore, unfortunately, has turned into a huge 
swamp for unfortunate army of idiots. Name anything worthwhile that has 
come from India; any mainstream package or software that is being used 
by thousands of common users like me.

the link to the  article is here
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/05/canonical_kills_free_ubuntu_cd_program/

The article itself is below

Although attributed, please don't copy and paste.


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[ubuntu-in] Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program

[Ramnarayan.K]

As some one who did order a few different versions it is a Sad though
but, allegedely true, i guess it has to come to an end some time and
hopefully people will find others ways of distributing CD's, and as
Canonical says technology has moved on :-)

though i don't think it will be easy for many internet users to
download even a few 100 megs - so i think we should have some more
reliable Ubuntu shippers making their presence felt.
 and as for the suggestion canonical gives to Ubuntu LUG's, well thats
something we are doing any way

the link to the  article is here
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/05/canonical_kills_free_ubuntu_cd_program/

The article itself is below

ram


Canonical kills free Ubuntu CD program


Try-before-you-don't-buy moves to cloud

By Gavin Clarke in San Francisco • Get more from this author

Posted in Operating Systems, 5th April 2011 22:53 GMT

Say goodbye to Ubuntu on CD. Canonical is killing the free
distribution of its Linux on disc, while ramping up cloud trials for
penguin-curious Windows fans.

On Tuesday, Canonical said it's stopping the six-year-old ShipIt and
CD distributor programs, as technology has moved on and they no longer
make sense. The move will also save Canonical money on shipping discs.

ShipIt dates from 2005, when broadband wasn't as ubiquitous and discs
were the best way to put software into the hands of devs and end
users. Canonical reckons it has shipped millions to CDs to every
country in the world.

The service stops with Ubuntu 11.04 later this month. Once the code,
currently in beta, is finished, you'll no longer be able apply for a
free CD via Canonical's web site.

Canonical is now planning a free online trial for Ubuntu "using the
goodness of the cloud" that marketing manager Gerry Carr promised
would be a "great first step for Windows users in particular" to wet
their toes on the Linux desktop.

He promised "much more this year" designed to reach out to mainstream
markets during 2011. He did not provide further details on what cloud
Canonical will use or what other activities Canonical has planned to
reach the mainstream desktop user.

Canonical's online consolidation follows last year's free, 55-minute
trial of Ubuntu 10.10 on Amazon's EC2 compute cloud, paid for by
Canonical. Users had no need for either an EC2 account or a credit
card and got an EC2 instance equivalent to a 1.2GHz processor, 2GB
RAM, 160GB disk space with some pre-configured WordPress, MoinMoin,
and Drupal 7.

Carr said on Tuesday that Canoncial has been slowly easing back on
ShipIt over the last two years, limiting the number of CDs per person
and the number of times a person could apply for a CD. As for the CE
distributor program, Carr said the volume of CDs distributed is
relatively low but the administrative burden for the program is
"surprisingly high" for Canonical.

For those who still want their penguin served on a disc, Canonical
said you can still download and distribute without its specific You
don't need Canoncial's specific blessing. Meanwhile, Canonical is
asking local communities to "find creative ways to get CDs to those
that need them" through what Carr called a "ShipIt-lite" program. ®

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