RE: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Mark Davis wrote: awful. At least with inches, feet, and miles, the number of feet per mile don't vary depending on which mile one is talking about! A Danish mile is 7 km, a Swedish mile (a fairly popular distance measure here) is 10 km, and an English mile is a mere 1.6 km (approx.). So yes, the number of feet per mile does vary depending on which mile one is talking about (even when considering that the length of a foot originally depended on who's foot was used to measure). ;-) (Sorry for being OT) /kent k PS Originally the Swedish mile was marginally longer than 10 km, but via nymil (new mile) or myriameter, the original term mile (mil) was adopted for the metric adapted distance.
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
On 20/08/2003 04:58, Kent Karlsson wrote: Mark Davis wrote: awful. At least with inches, feet, and miles, the number of feet per mile don't vary depending on which mile one is talking about! A Danish mile is 7 km, a Swedish mile (a fairly popular distance measure here) is 10 km, and an English mile is a mere 1.6 km (approx.). So yes, the number of feet per mile does vary depending on which mile one is talking about (even when considering that the length of a foot originally depended on who's foot was used to measure). ;-) (Sorry for being OT) /kent k PS Originally the Swedish mile was marginally longer than 10 km, but via nymil (new mile) or myriameter, the original term mile (mil) was adopted for the metric adapted distance. Well, a Roman mile was originally a thousand (double) paces, which depended on how long your legs were and how much of a hurry you were in. It was standardised as marginally shorter than the English mile. I guess English legs tended to be longer than Roman ones. But Swedish legs ... I know many Swedes are tall, but not that much taller than us! Your Swedish mile sounds more like what we call a league. From Websters 1913 edition, at http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/league: 1. A measure of length or distance, varying in different countries from about 2.4 to 4.6 English statute miles of 5.280 feet each, and used (as a land measure) chiefly on the continent of Europe, and in the Spanish parts of America. The marine league of England and the United States is equal to three marine, or geographical, miles of 6080 feet each. Note: The English land league is equal to three English statute miles. The Spanish and French leagues vary in each country according to usage and the kind of measurement to which they are applied. The Dutch and German leagues contain about four geographical miles, or about 4.6 English statute miles. Thank goodness that most of these measurements are obsolete! -- Peter Kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] (personal) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) http://www.qaya.org/
RE: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Peter Kirk wrote: [...] I guess English legs tended to be longer than Roman ones. Well, if by English you mean those Germanic barbarians who invaded Britannia, I guess that the British mile existed way before they set their feet on the island... _ Marco
RE: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Doug Ewell wrote: Shouldn't a pint of beer be administratively fixed at 500 mL, just as a fifth of liquor in America is now officially 750 mL? Seems like a good task for an ISO working group. You could generalize it a bit: Alignment Of Metric And Imperial Units Whose Difference Is So Small As To Be Pointless. E.g., I never understood why on earth metres and yards should be kept different. In a public park somewhere in UK or Ireland I have seen the following sign: TOILETS --- 50 yds (45.72 m) It must be a really urgent need if one cares about those 3.28 metres... _ Marco
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
On 19/08/2003 02:51, Marco Cimarosti wrote: Doug Ewell wrote: Shouldn't a pint of beer be administratively fixed at 500 mL, just as a fifth of liquor in America is now officially 750 mL? Seems like a good task for an ISO working group. You could generalize it a bit: Alignment Of Metric And Imperial Units Whose Difference Is So Small As To Be Pointless. I assure you the beer drinkers of the UK and probably Ireland would rise in revolt and burn down the European Parliament or some other convenient scapegoat if you tried to serve them half litres or Flintstone pints when they were expecting their full measure. 15% difference, or whatever it is, is not trivial! E.g., I never understood why on earth metres and yards should be kept different. In a public park somewhere in UK or Ireland I have seen the following sign: TOILETS --- 50 yds (45.72 m) It must be a really urgent need if one cares about those 3.28 metres... After a few full pints of Guinness one will even care about the metre that you left out! :-) -- Peter Kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] (personal) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) http://www.qaya.org/
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Marco Cimarosti schreef: E.g., I never understood why on earth metres and yards should be kept different. In a public park somewhere in UK or Ireland I have seen the following sign: TOILETS --- 50 yds (45.72 m) It must be a really urgent need if one cares about those 3.28 metres... 4.28 actually. But are you serious about lengthening the yard to be the same size as the meter? Ha! Fat chance! You might as well suggest we abolish the yard altogether! Pim Blokland
RE: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
In Esperanto, there is no word for yard. If you want to say It was 50 yards away you are expected to convert the distance to meters before translation. Such is the requirement of a global language. However, Esperanto was not entirely successful in its goal to become a second language for everyone, given that more people speak Klingon than Esperanto, so this is probably irrelevant to your statement (which was itself irrelevant to the subject title, which was off topic from the original title, which was in turn off topic for this forum). I think that made sense. Jill -Original Message- From: Marco Cimarosti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 10:51 AM To: 'Doug Ewell'; Unicode Mailing List Cc: Michael Everson Subject: RE: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign) E.g., I never understood why on earth metres and yards should be kept different. In a public park somewhere in UK or Ireland I have seen the following sign: TOILETS --- 50 yds (45.72 m) It must be a really urgent need if one cares about those 3.28 metres... _ Marco
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
At 13:18 +0200 2003-08-19, Pim Blokland wrote: You might as well suggest we abolish the yard altogether! What a superb idea. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Marco Cimarosti scripsit: You could generalize it a bit: Alignment Of Metric And Imperial Units Whose Difference Is So Small As To Be Pointless. E.g., I never understood why on earth metres and yards should be kept different. In a public park somewhere in UK or Ireland I have seen the following sign: Because the yard isn't just an isolated unit, like the pound in various European countries. It's part of a coherent (if profoundly messy) system. If we reduce the yard by 9%, the inch has to shrink too, and the last thing we want is to try to fit a 1/4 inch bolt (6.35 mm) into a nut whose inside diameter is only 5.81 mm. It's bad enough to have to have two kinds of hardware already: having incompatible things both labeled 1/4 inch would be the facilis descensus Averno indeed. -- John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan The exception proves the rule. Dimbulbs think: Your counterexample proves my theory. Latin students think 'Probat' means 'tests': the exception puts the rule to the proof. But legal historians know it means Evidence for an exception is evidence of the existence of a rule in cases not excepted from.
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Michael Everson scripsit: At 13:18 +0200 2003-08-19, Pim Blokland wrote: You might as well suggest we abolish the yard altogether! What a superb idea. 'Sblood, nay! I love the metric system as well as any, but have no desire to have my yard abolished. -- Do I contradict myself?John Cowan Very well then, I contradict myself.[EMAIL PROTECTED] I am large, I contain multitudes. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --Walt Whitman, _Leaves of Grass_ http://www.reutershealth.com
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
At 08:41 -0400 2003-08-19, John Cowan wrote: Michael Everson scripsit: At 13:18 +0200 2003-08-19, Pim Blokland wrote: You might as well suggest we abolish the yard altogether! What a superb idea. 'Sblood, nay! I love the metric system as well as any, but have no desire to have my yard abolished. It shall pass the way of the cubit and the stadia -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] scripsit: However, Esperanto was not entirely successful in its goal to become a second language for everyone, given that more people speak Klingon than Esperanto, Entirely false. Esperanto speakers are numbered in the millions, including hundreds, perhaps thousands, who speak it natively. It is a complete human language with a vocabulary capable of discussing anything, and a literature including both prose and poetry. Fluent Klingon speakers probably do not exceed 100, and there is only one native speaker, who no longer speaks it; the vocabulary is quite limited, as is the literature. -- De plichten van een docent zijn divers, John Cowan die van het gehoor ook. [EMAIL PROTECTED] --Edsger Dijkstra http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Michael Everson scripsit: 'Sblood, nay! I love the metric system as well as any, but have no desire to have my yard abolished. It shall pass the way of the cubit and the stadia Michael. Look up yard in that OED of yours. Then tell me again just how much you wish to have it abolished. -- LEAR: Dost thou call me fool, boy? John Cowan FOOL: All thy other titles http://www.ccil.org/~cowan thou hast given away: [EMAIL PROTECTED] That thou wast born with. http://www.reutershealth.com
RE: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Pim Blokland wrote: It must be a really urgent need if one cares about those 3.28 metres... 4.28 actually. Ooops. But are you serious about lengthening the yard to be the same size as the meter? I was just joking... Ha! Fat chance! You might as well suggest we abolish the yard altogether! ... What I really meant was this, in fact. Everybody understands that 50 yards on a sign for a toilet, or 1000 yards on a sign for a filling station are just rough approximation (especially since they cannot know in advance which closet or hose I will use). They just mean The toilet is quite close, resist! and Start slowing down and prepare to turn. It would be just as fine writing 50 m or 1000 m. Of course, this is if you *want* to abolish the imperial system and adopt the metre; but this *is* what UK and Ireland have decided to do. _ Marco
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Marco Cimarosti marco dot cimarosti at essetre dot it wrote: E.g., I never understood why on earth metres and yards should be kept different. In a public park somewhere in UK or Ireland I have seen the following sign: TOILETS --- 50 yds (45.72 m) Around the 1970s, it became fashionable for baseball stadiums to display field dimensions on the outfield walls in meters as well as feet. Unfortunately, they decided to be overly precise with the conversions, and so you saw things like 330 ft 100.58 m painted on the wall. This taught millions of young baseball fans that the use of metric units requires carrying measurements out to 5 significant figures. (Of course, the original 330 feet was not necessarily exact to the nearest 0.01 foot.) -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
on 2003-08-19 02:51 Marco Cimarosti wrote: TOILETS --- 50 yds (45.72 m) To be precise, it should have said 50.00 yards (or perhaps 46 m). -- Curtis Clark http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark/ Mockingbird Font Works http://www.mockfont.com/
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
At 08:37 -0700 2003-08-19, Doug Ewell wrote: Around the 1970s, it became fashionable for baseball stadiums to display field dimensions on the outfield walls in meters as well as feet. Because of the Canadians? -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
on 2003-08-19 04:18 Pim Blokland wrote: Ha! Fat chance! You might as well suggest we abolish the yard altogether! Then, how would I have a yard sale? (or even a yard sail?) -- Curtis Clark http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark/ Mockingbird Font Works http://www.mockfont.com/
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
At 10:39 -0400 2003-08-19, John Cowan wrote: Michael. Look up yard in that OED of yours. Then tell me again just how much you wish to have it abolished. It will be a great day when the US finally accepts and implements the metric system. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
At some time in the 70's when I was at conference to mark the centenary of the Greenwich meridian I learned that the French agreed to give up the Paris meridian if the British agreed to go metric-and that was over a century ago ! Maybe the U.S. could be bribed to go metric if they were allowed to have Washington as the standard meridian. Raymond Mercier
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Cowan Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 2:41 PM To: Marco Cimarosti Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: SPAM: Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign) It's bad enough to have to have two kinds of hardware already: having incompatible things both labeled 1/4 inch would be the facilis descensus Averno indeed. There are three: Metric, regular Imperial with 1/32, 1/8 etc. and decimal Imperial with 0.1. -- John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan The exception proves the rule. Dimbulbs think: Your counterexample proves my theory. Latin students think 'Probat' means 'tests': the exception puts the rule to the proof. But legal historians know it means Evidence for an exception is evidence of the existence of a rule in cases not excepted from.
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Michael Everson scripsit: Michael. Look up yard in that OED of yours. Then tell me again just how much you wish to have it abolished. It will be a great day when the US finally accepts and implements the metric system. I agree entirely. -- One Word to write them all, John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] One Access to find them, http://www.reutershealth.com One Excel to count them all,http://www.ccil.org/~cowan And thus to Windows bind them.--Mike Champion
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
On Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:46 PM, Raymond Mercier wrote: At some time in the 70's when I was at conference to mark the centenary of the Greenwich meridian I learned that the French agreed to give up the Paris meridian if the British agreed to go metric-and that was over a century ago ! Since we're speaking of the French (we are, aren't we?) what ever happened to French Revolutionary Metric Time? Maybe the U.S. could be bribed to go metric if they were allowed to have Washington as the standard meridian. Sorry, it would have to be Greenbank, not Washington. However, the radio telescope there fell over in a storm years ago, so never mind. Personally, I prefer base 60 and base 16 to base 10. (But please, this is not an attempt to link this thread, whatever it is, to the Hexadecimal thread. 50159344557) Ted Ted Hopp, Ph.D. ZigZag, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1-301-990-7453 newSLATE is your personal learning workspace ...on the web at http://www.newSLATE.com/
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Yes, I am sick and tired of dealing with this horrible non-decimal measurement system the US has for time: the number of units per other unit vary all across the board: 60..61 : 1, 60 : 1, 24 : 1, 28..31 : 1, 12 : 1, 365..366 : 1 -- awful. At least with inches, feet, and miles, the number of feet per mile don't vary depending on which mile one is talking about! I'll be so glad to shift to a metric system for time, as they use in Europe, so we won't have to deal with this stuff any more. How could anyone prefer this to a metric system? Mark __ http://www.macchiato.com Eppur si muove - Original Message - From: John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Everson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 10:15 Subject: Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign) Michael Everson scripsit: Michael. Look up yard in that OED of yours. Then tell me again just how much you wish to have it abolished. It will be a great day when the US finally accepts and implements the metric system. I agree entirely. -- One Word to write them all, John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] One Access to find them, http://www.reutershealth.com One Excel to count them all,http://www.ccil.org/~cowan And thus to Windows bind them.--Mike Champion
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Ted Hopp writes Since we're speaking of the French (we are, aren't we?) what ever happened to French Revolutionary Metric Time? The other French attempts were less successful, such as the 12 30-day months. The French names for the months Vendmiaire, etc., were parodied in an English version: wheezy, sneezy, freezy, slippy, etc. One decimal dystem that survives is the grad (400 grad = 360 degrees), still used at least by surveyors, but Laplace used it in astronomical calculations. The Americans won't have the meter now, unless it's renamed the freedom-yard, I suppose. Raymond
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
John Cowan recently said: Marco Cimarosti scripsit: You could generalize it a bit: Alignment Of Metric And Imperial Units Whose Difference Is So Small As To Be Pointless. E.g., I never understood why on earth metres and yards should be kept different. In a public park somewhere in UK or Ireland I have seen the following sign: Because the yard isn't just an isolated unit, like the pound in various European countries. It's part of a coherent (if profoundly messy) system. If we reduce the yard by 9%, the inch has to shrink too, and the last thing we want is to try to fit a 1/4 inch bolt (6.35 mm) into a nut whose inside diameter is only 5.81 mm. It's bad enough to have to have two kinds of hardware already: having incompatible things both labeled 1/4 inch would be the facilis descensus Averno indeed. In the UK the inch is now defined as 25.4mm rather than a subdivision of a standard yard kept under lock and key. If you peruse electronics catalogues you will discover that many components have leads spaced at a pitch of 2.54mm which seems a remarkable degree of accuracy. When I was younger they were a nice round 0.1. Tim -- Tim Partridge. Any opinions expressed are mine only and not those of my employer
RE: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Mark, Yes, I am sick and tired of dealing with this horrible non-decimal measurement system the US has for time: the number of units per other unit vary all across the board: 60..61 : 1, 60 : 1, 24 : 1, 28..31 : 1, 12 : 1, 365..366 : 1 -- awful. At least with inches, feet, and miles, the number of feet per mile don't vary depending on which mile one is talking about! However, just try to sort out a set of drill bits. 11/64 etc. I also have a hard time remembering that a Hundredweight c.w.t is 112 pounds. I am glad that it is not in common usage. But working on a house with feet, inches and fractions drives me absolutely crazy. At least with clocks you are not doing tremendous amounts of math to do anything. The only time when clocks are a problem is when you are dealing with multiple time zones. Carl
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Timothy Partridge scripsit: In the UK the inch is now defined as 25.4mm rather than a subdivision of a standard yard kept under lock and key. True enough, but the yard is still exactly 36 inches. -- If you have ever wondered if you are in hell, John Cowan it has been said, then you are on a well-traveled http://www.ccil.org/~cowan road of spiritual inquiry. If you are absolutely http://www.reutershealth.com sure you are in hell, however, then you must be [EMAIL PROTECTED] on the Cross Bronx Expressway. --Alan Feur, NYTimes, 2002-09-20
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Ted Hopp wrote: Sorry, it would have to be Greenbank, not Washington. Greenbank. Hm... has a nice ring to it. Greenbank... Greenbank Mean Time. I could live with that. On a (hardly) more serious note, Mark Davis wrote: this horrible non-decimal measurement system the US has for time: the number of units per other unit vary all across the board: 60..61 : 1, 60 : 1, 24 : 1, 28..31 : 1, 12 : 1, 365..366 : 1 -- awful. If you don't want to give up the year as a unit, you will always be stuck with this ratio of 365.24 days to the year; no way you can change that. Live with it. We can discard the months, of course, the length of the months isn't related to anything anymore; the weeks can go as well, and if we just divide the day up in 10 small units, we've done away with most of the illogics. At least with inches, feet, and miles, the number of feet per mile don't vary depending on which mile one is talking about! Well, not all of those measurements are the same size. Disregarding nautical miles, there's still the matter of the yards. Did I mention that my front yard is not the same size as my back yard? Pim Blokland
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Carl W. Brown scripsit: I also have a hard time remembering that a Hundredweight c.w.t is 112 pounds. I am glad that it is not in common usage. The Imperial cwt is indeed 112 lb, but the U.S. customary cwt remains 100 lb. But working on a house with feet, inches and fractions drives me absolutely crazy. At least with clocks you are not doing tremendous amounts of math to do anything. The only time when clocks are a problem is when you are dealing with multiple time zones. A kilosec is a reasonable amount of time to wait for a late appointment (in some countries, anyhow). A megasec is enough time to do a small project. If a marriage lasts a gigasec, it is doing very well. -- There is / One art John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] No more / No less http://www.reutershealth.com To do / All things http://www.ccil.org/~cowan With art- / Lessness -- Piet Hein
RE: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
John, A kilosec is a reasonable amount of time to wait for a late appointment (in some countries, anyhow). A megasec is enough time to do a small project. If a marriage lasts a gigasec, it is doing very well. 1 pictun = 20 baktun = 2,880,000 days = approx. 7885 years 1 calabtun = 20 pictun = 57,600,000 days = approx. 158,000 years 1 kinchiltun = 20 calabtun = 1,152,000,000 days = approx. 3 million years 1 alautun = 20 kinchiltun = 23,040,000,000 days = approx. 63 million years The Mayans must have been very patient people. Carl
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Resending with the correct address... On 19/08/2003 13:49, Carl W. Brown wrote: Mark, Yes, I am sick and tired of dealing with this horrible non-decimal measurement system the US has for time: the number of units per other unit vary all across the board: 60..61 : 1, 60 : 1, 24 : 1, 28..31 : 1, 12 : 1, 365..366 : 1 -- awful. At least with inches, feet, and miles, the number of feet per mile don't vary depending on which mile one is talking about! However, just try to sort out a set of drill bits. 11/64 etc. I also have a hard time remembering that a Hundredweight c.w.t is 112 pounds. I am glad that it is not in common usage. But working on a house with feet, inches and fractions drives me absolutely crazy. At least with clocks you are not doing tremendous amounts of math to do anything. The only time when clocks are a problem is when you are dealing with multiple time zones. Carl It drives me even more crazy when some of the things I need to work on my house are in feet, some in yards, and some in metres. I measure things up in metres then find what I am buying supplied in feet, or vice versa. Well, I think it's all supposed to be metric, but it isn't. -- Peter Kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] (personal) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) http://www.qaya.org/
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Curtis == Curtis Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Marco TOILETS --- 50 yds (45.72 m) Curtis To be precise, it should have said 50.00 yards (or perhaps 46 m). Actually, 50 only has one significant digit, so that would in fact round to 50 m afterall. -JimC
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Ted Hopp ted at newslate dot com wrote: Since we're speaking of the French (we are, aren't we?) what ever happened to French Revolutionary Metric Time? It was revived in 1998, but the meridian was moved to Switzerland, the day was divided into 1000 beats instead of 10 hours of 100 minutes each, and the whole thing was dubbed Swatch Internet Time. See: http://www.swatch.com/internettime/home.php -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ @210
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Ted Hopp ted at newslate dot com wrote: Shouldn't a pint of beer be administratively fixed at 500 mL, just as a fifth of liquor in America is now officially 750 mL? Seems like a good task for an ISO working group. Egads! THAT would be enough to drive a person to drink. Thus promoting widespread use of the standard, an often-stated goal of ISO. OK, I'm done with this thread. Back to Unicode. -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
RE: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
For what it's worth, in America, you spell it meter; in England, you spell it metre. Jill -Original Message- From: Philippe Verdy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 5:52 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?) SI units already have several names, which are language dependant. the English meter is ...
Re: [OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
From: Ted Hopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sunday, August 17, 2003 10:48 PM, Doug Ewell wrote: Shouldn't a pint of beer be administratively fixed at 500 mL, 500 ml (lowercase for the official liter symbol) just as a fifth of liquor in America is now officially 750 mL? 750 ml (idem) Seems like a good task for an ISO working group. Egads! THAT would be enough to drive a person to drink. Do you mean drunk here? At least that person should not be authorized to drive after 66 cl (or two 33cl bottles), exceeding normally the maximum 0.5 g/l of alcoohol in blood, or 0.3 g/l of expired air (French levels). If one wants to use basic SI units, this means 0.5 kg/m3. For a adult person of roughly 80kg (about 5 liters of blood), this limit is 2.5 g of pure alcoohol, and with a beer at 6, this limit is roughly 41 g of beer if it was fully assimilated (injected directly in the veins), but a normal absorbtion is performed at roughly 10% in the instestinal area, going to 410 g of beer, or 41 cl (just a little more than a 33 cl bottle, this limit being exceeded with just 1 can of 50 cl...) So for the police, any one that has just drunk a pint or a fifth of beer is drunk and out of law if driving... Philippe. Les messages non sollicits (spams) ne sont pas tolrs. Tout abus sera signal automatiquement vos fournisseurs de service.
Re: [OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Philippe Verdy scripsit: Egads! THAT would be enough to drive a person to drink. Do you mean drunk here? At least that person should not be authorized to drive after 66 cl (or two 33cl bottles), Drive [someone] to drink means frustrate or annoy [someone] sufficiently that he begins to drink as a release, and has nothing to do with automobiles. -- John Cowan[EMAIL PROTECTED] At times of peril or dubitation, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Perform swift circular ambulation,http://www.reutershealth.com With loud and high-pitched ululation.
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
On 16/08/2003 21:51, Philippe Verdy wrote: Note that USA, UK, Australia and New Zealand are members, even if they often can use legally or most usually the British system (miles, weight pounds, gallons, degrees Fahrenheit...) USA and UK do use this alternative system, except that the US gallon is different from the British one (exactly 20% smaller I think), but Australia and New Zealand don't. I saw no sign of any of these measurements in either of the latter countries, except for a few very old signs using miles. -- Peter Kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] (personal) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) http://www.qaya.org/
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
Peter Kirk scripsit: USA and UK do use this alternative system, except that the US gallon is different from the British one (exactly 20% smaller I think), For the record, it's true that the Imperial gallon has 20 fluid ounces and the Fred Flintstone gallon only 16, *but* it's also true that U.S. fluid ounces are about 4% bigger than Imperial ones. So in fact a U.S. gallon is about 83% of an Imperial one. Quarts and pints are corresponding. -- There is no real going back. Though I John Cowan may come to the Shire, it will not seem [EMAIL PROTECTED] the same; for I shall not be the same. http://www.reutershealth.com I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan and a long burden. Where shall I find rest? --Frodo
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
John Cowan remarked... Of course it's the *pint* (8 pints to a gallon) that is 16 or 20 fluid ounces. Which explains to me why a pint of bitter in England seems quite so enormous... well for a small Yank... ;-) Rick
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
At 18:01 -0400 2003-08-17, John Cowan wrote: Yup. Hence also the Brit's complaint about the metric system: a liter of beer is too much, half a liter isn't enough, but a pint, ah, that's just right. The Imperial pint is .57 liters, whereas the Flintstone one is only .47 liters. A half-litre can of Guinness fits perfectly into the standard Irish pint glass. I mean perfectly. I just poured one. :-) -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
On 17/08/2003 15:16, Michael Everson wrote: At 18:01 -0400 2003-08-17, John Cowan wrote: Yup. Hence also the Brit's complaint about the metric system: a liter of beer is too much, half a liter isn't enough, but a pint, ah, that's just right. The Imperial pint is .57 liters, whereas the Flintstone one is only .47 liters. A half-litre can of Guinness fits perfectly into the standard Irish pint glass. I mean perfectly. I just poured one. :-) Hence this Brit's complaint also about Irish beer. Lots of froth, lots to chew on as well, but not much to drink! ;-) -- Peter Kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] (personal) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) http://www.qaya.org/
[Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Michael Everson everson at evertype dot com wrote: Yup. Hence also the Brit's complaint about the metric system: a liter of beer is too much, half a liter isn't enough, but a pint, ah, that's just right. The Imperial pint is .57 liters, whereas the Flintstone one is only .47 liters. A half-litre can of Guinness fits perfectly into the standard Irish pint glass. I mean perfectly. I just poured one. :-) Shouldn't a pint of beer be administratively fixed at 500 mL, just as a fifth of liquor in America is now officially 750 mL? Seems like a good task for an ISO working group. -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Doug Ewell scripsit: Shouldn't a pint of beer be administratively fixed at 500 mL, just as a fifth of liquor in America is now officially 750 mL? Seems like a good task for an ISO working group. Arrgh. Shall we return to a firkin of beer in London being one size, a firkin of wine in London another, whereas in the rest of England a firkin, of beer or wine indifferently, was still a third size? Pints, unlike fifths, are in general use. Leave bad enough alone. -- They tried to pierce your heartJohn Cowan with a Morgul-knife that remains in the http://www.ccil.org/~cowan wound. If they had succeeded, you wouldhttp://www.reutershealth.com become a wraith under the domination of the Dark Lord. --Gandalf
Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
On Sunday, August 17, 2003 10:48 PM, Doug Ewell wrote: Shouldn't a pint of beer be administratively fixed at 500 mL, just as a fifth of liquor in America is now officially 750 mL? Seems like a good task for an ISO working group. Egads! THAT would be enough to drive a person to drink. Ted Ted Hopp, Ph.D. ZigZag, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1-301-990-7453 newSLATE is your personal learning workspace ...on the web at http://www.newSLATE.com/
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
On 2003.08.14, 00:52, Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the dollar sign can be used for currencies other than the USD, even for some which name is not even dollar, then I suppose there is a theoreitical possiblity that it may be used as a symbol of euro cent (though I personally prefer c). Ooops! Here I meant rather that «If the dollar sign can be used for currencies »...« then the *cent sign* may be used as a symbol of euro cent». Sorry again! -- . António MARTINS-Tuválkin, | ()| [EMAIL PROTECTED] || R. Laureano de Oliveira, 64 r/c esq. | PT-1885-050 MOSCAVIDE (LRS) Não me invejo de quem tem | +351 934 821 700 carros, parelhas e montes | http://www.tuvalkin.web.pt/bandeira/ só me invejo de quem bebe | http://pagina.de/bandeiras/ a água em todas as fontes |
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
On 2003.08.14, 05:24, John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin scripsit: Some habits are indeed language dependant, but some others are just tradition (some of it imposed as logic and correct decades ago, like compulsive caseless singular for SI units in speech), and should not necessarily apply. Compulsive caseless singular? That *is* language dependent. It is -- but I twisted my words less than my reasoning: I meant that *even things clearly language dependent*, like case and number, were (still are) legislated as part of the SI (in terms that SI units should be always nominative singular), and yet widely ignored. You just can't say four meter in English; it has to be four meters. Yet, according to the SI, you should. Actually, we joked about a 10th grade Physics teacher who would say (in Portuguese) «fifty kilogram» in class and «fifty kilos» in the corridor. -- . António MARTINS-Tuválkin, | ()| [EMAIL PROTECTED] || R. Laureano de Oliveira, 64 r/c esq. | PT-1885-050 MOSCAVIDE (LRS) Não me invejo de quem tem | +351 934 821 700 carros, parelhas e montes | http://www.tuvalkin.web.pt/bandeira/ só me invejo de quem bebe | http://pagina.de/bandeiras/ a água em todas as fontes |
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
From: Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 10:22 PM Subject: Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?) On 2003.08.14, 05:24, John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin scripsit: Some habits are indeed language dependant, but some others are just tradition (some of it imposed as logic and correct decades ago, like compulsive caseless singular for SI units in speech), and should not necessarily apply. Compulsive caseless singular? That *is* language dependent. It is -- but I twisted my words less than my reasoning: I meant that *even things clearly language dependent*, like case and number, were (still are) legislated as part of the SI (in terms that SI units should be always nominative singular), and yet widely ignored. You just can't say four meter in English; it has to be four meters. Yet, according to the SI, you should. Actually, we joked about a 10th grade Physics teacher who would say (in Portuguese) «fifty kilogram» in class and «fifty kilos» in the corridor. SI units already have several names, which are language dependant. the English meter is a French mètre (which also has the plural form mètres according to the French grammar and all dictionnaries, including the official terminology based on the historic Dictionnary of the French Academy.) I bet that Japanese also writes meter phonetically with a square Katakana symbol (ME-TE-RU?), and that many languages include their translation of this basic unit. The SI system is fully described and maintained by the French Bureau International des Poids et Mesures (http://www.bipm.fr/) under the International Organization of the Convention of the Meter signed in Paris in 1875, modified in 1921, last amended in 1998 and 2000. In 1997, 48 countries had adhered to this convention: - In Americas the Caribbeans: Argentina, Brasil, Canada, Chile, Dominican Rep., Mexico, Uruguay, Venezuela, USA, - In Western Europe: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Norway, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom, - In Central Eastern Europe: Bulgaria, Czech Rep., Hungria, Poland, Romania, Russian Federation, Slovakia, - In Africa: South Africa, Cameroun, Egypt - In West-Central Asia: India, Indonesia, Iran, Israel, Pakistan, Turkey, - In East Asia: China, Korean Rep., Korean Dem. Rep., Japan, Singapore, Thailand, - In the Pacific: Australia, New Zealand. All big countries (notably the G8) are members, and most others have already accepted to apply it for international interchange (notably all the other WTO members, and the missing Luxembourg in the E.U.). Note that USA, UK, Australia and New Zealand are members, even if they often can use legally or most usually the British system (miles, weight pounds, gallons, degrees Fahrenheit...) The basic French names, their symbols, are listed here on the previous web site: http://www.bipm.fr/fra/3_SI/base_units.html The English names are listed here too. And the official 1998 text is here, with its 2000 supplement: http://www.bipm.fr/pdf/brochure-si.pdf (French, official) http://www.bipm.fr/pdf/si-brochure.pdf (English) http://www.bipm.fr/pdf/si-supplement2000.pdf (French English) It describes the convention, the unit system, its names, symbols, prefixes. Prefixes are defined between 10^24 and 10^-24 (extended in 1958) There are some references to undimensional units defined in ISO 31, which will be integrated later in SI. It is translated officially in English since 1985. This brochure is also translated into: german, english, bulgarish, chinese, korean, spanish, japanese, portuguese, romanian, and czech. For the English version, visit: http://www.bipm.fr/enus/3_SI/si.html notably its brochure: Note however that currency units are *not* SI units as they have no stable definition and they are not universally convertible (each currency defines its own measure system) One note finally: the term degree kelvin and the symbol °K was used in the SI before 1968... Philippe. Les messages non sollicités (spams) ne sont pas tolérés. Tout abus sera signalé automatiquement à vos fournisseurs de service.
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
Not pausing to wonder why on earth this list [EMAIL PROTECTED] is currently discussing my country's currencies, only to wonder if anyone here knows whether Ireland is the only EU country which has to use two - in Belfast we use Pounds Sterling (£), and in Dublin euro (). mg ps. To complicate/simplify matters further: I am recently returned from an academic conference in Scotland where I was invited to give a paper, and a few days ago just added £10 of my leftover UK currency from that trip to a handful of euro to buy something here. mg -- Marion Gunn * EGT (Estab.1991) * http://www.egt.ie * fiosruithe/enquiries: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * [EMAIL PROTECTED] *
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
At 11:47 +0100 2003-08-15, Marion Gunn wrote: Not pausing to wonder why on earth this list [EMAIL PROTECTED] is currently discussing my country's currencies, only to wonder if anyone here knows whether Ireland is the only EU country which has to use two - in Belfast we use Pounds Sterling (£), and in Dublin euro (*). Ireland, as a member of the European Monetary Union, is one of the countries which uses euros, which is why you use them in Dublin. The United Kingdom is not a member of the EMU, which is why you use pounds in Belfast. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
RE: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
What's more, in the Isle of Man (which is situated between Britain and Ireland) they accept pretty much any currency under the sun. You can pay for things in a mixture of pounds sterling, euro, US dollars, whatever. They don't care. Shops will just take anything, and if necessary make up an exchange rate on the spot. The reason they don't care is because they can actually spend this mix anywhere _else_ on the Isle of Man. A very enlightened attitude, I find. Jill -Original Message- From: Marion Gunn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 11:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?) Not pausing to wonder why on earth this list [EMAIL PROTECTED] is currently discussing my country's currencies, only to wonder if anyone here knows whether Ireland is the only EU country which has to use two - in Belfast we use Pounds Sterling (£), and in Dublin euro (EUR). mg ps. To complicate/simplify matters further: I am recently returned from an academic conference in Scotland where I was invited to give a paper, and a few days ago just added £10 of my leftover UK currency from that trip to a handful of euro to buy something here. mg -- Marion Gunn * EGT (Estab.1991) * http://www.egt.ie * fiosruithe/enquiries: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * [EMAIL PROTECTED] *
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
On 15/08/2003 04:16, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's more, in the Isle of Man (which is situated between Britain and Ireland) they accept pretty much any currency under the sun. You can pay for things in a mixture of pounds sterling, euro, US dollars, whatever. They don't care. Shops will just take anything, and if necessary make up an exchange rate on the spot. The reason they don't care is because they can actually spend this mix anywhere _else_ on the Isle of Man. A very enlightened attitude, I find. Jill Agreed. But it's not a member or part of the EU, or of the UK, like the Channel Islands - which makes them all convenient tax havens. It is self-governing, with the oldest Parliament in the world I understand. -- Peter Kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] (personal) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) http://www.qaya.org/
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
From: Peter Kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Agreed. But it's not a member or part of the EU, or of the UK, like the Channel Islands - which makes them all convenient tax havens. It is self-governing, with the oldest Parliament in the world I understand. I thought it was in Iceland...
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] scripsit: What's more, in the Isle of Man (which is situated between Britain and Ireland) they accept pretty much any currency under the sun. You can pay for things in a mixture of pounds sterling, euro, US dollars, whatever. They don't care. Shops will just take anything, and if necessary make up an exchange rate on the spot. The reason they don't care is because they can actually spend this mix anywhere _else_ on the Isle of Man. Similar things used to happen in Luxembourg, I believe. A very enlightened attitude, I find. In 19th century California, it was common for things to cost 12.5 cents, although the U.S. has never made coins for this amount, nor for 0.5 cents either. To solve this problem, people used the following arrangement: you could buy one such item with a quarter (25 cent coin) and get a dime (10 cent coin) in change, or you could buy the item with dime and get no change. Mark Twain, unsurprisingly, found a way to beat the system: go to the Post Office and buy a 5-cent stamp, then use the two dimes to buy two items. -- Kill Gorg)Bûn! Kill orc-folk! John Cowan No other words please Wild Men. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Drive away bad air and darkness http://www.reutershealth.com with bright iron! --Gh)Bân-buri-Ghânhttp://www.ccil.org/~cowan
[OT] $0.005 (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
John Cowan cowan at mercury dot ccil dot org wrote: In 19th century California, it was common for things to cost 12.5 cents, although the U.S. has never made coins for this amount, nor for 0.5 cents either. The U.S. did indeed make half-cent coins, from 1793 through 1857. However, they generally did not circulate outside of large East Coast cities. Neither did one-cent coins, which were about 27 mm in diameter until 1857 (roughly the size of a Sacagawea dollar). This resulted in the dime/quarter pricing structure John described. It seems strange that these coins did not circulate widely when you consider how much one cent would buy in the 1850s. U.S. postage stamps for cent, 1 cents, and 2 cents were produced well into the 20th century. -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
Re: [OT] $0.005 (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)
Doug Ewell scripsit: In 19th century California, it was common for things to cost 12.5 cents, although the U.S. has never made coins for this amount, nor for 0.5 cents either. The U.S. did indeed make half-cent coins, from 1793 through 1857. Well, I guess this is my version of a troll, because I knew a) that probably wasn't right and b) I was gonna get called on it. -- John Cowan www.ccil.org/~cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.reutershealth.com [P]olice in many lands are not complaining that local arrestees are insisting on having their Miranda rights read to them, just like perps in American TV cop shows. When it's explained to them that they are in a different country, where those rights do not exist, they become outraged. --Neal Stephenson
Re: Handwritten EURO sign
At 23:35 +0200 2003-08-05, Pim Blokland wrote: I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are lucky not having to put up with bad English like five euro and six cent, living in the Netherlands and speaking Dutch as you do. See http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro if you wish to learn more about a disaster in language planning. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
On 14/08/2003 09:54, Michael Everson wrote: Lepton in Greek was accepted from the beginning. Leptó pl leptá. The same word as the original widow's mite (Mark 12:42). Probably worth even less now! -- Peter Kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] (personal) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) http://www.qaya.org/
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
- Message d'origine - De: Marco Cimarosti [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin wrote: After all the euro is a common currency and its figures should be written in a common way. Why? Very good question. Multilingual countries like Belgium or Canada already were or are writing the same amounts using different cultural conventions depending on the language of the text where they appear. Otherwise, I'm personally quite flexible if only one convention is used and imposed upon all, as long as it is the French one ;-) P. Andries - o - 0 - o - Unicode en français http://pages.infinit.net/hapax (Traduction de l'UTR 20 en cours)
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
James H. Cloos Jr. wrote: Anto'nio == Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anto'nio (Let alone the validity of things Anto'nio like k, c etc.) I'm sure things like m, k, M and even G will come into use, though I expect more will use them in front of the digits. I certainly use m$, k$ et al, and regulary see others use them. m and m$ would be millieuros and millidollars. How could anyone need anything like that? And why use c$ and c, wouldn't be just as good? Stefan
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
At 00:52 +0100 2003-08-14, Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin wrote: Using the cent sign is mostly US specific and the symbol is not recognized as such in most European countries, so the cent sign is bound directly to the dollar. If the dollar sign can be used for currencies other than the USD, even for some which name is not even dollar, then I suppose there is a theoreitical possiblity that it may be used as a symbol of euro cent (though I personally prefer c*). There is no reason that the noble ¢ cent sign should not be used for the European currency. Personally I always use it, because 2¢ looks like two cents and 2c looks like two cee. In Ireland of course when we used pence we wrote 2p and said two pee. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: Handwritten EURO sign
Michael Everson schreef: More horrifying is the idiotic euro is immune to grammar error which continues to be broadcast daily by our television and radio stations, all because people with power lacked the moral courage to say oops, yeah, that was the wrong interpretation of the Directive which was intended to ensure clean typography. Sigh. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Pim Blokland
Re: Handwritten EURO sign
At 08:55 -0700 2003-08-05, Doug Ewell wrote: The original legislative attempt to dictate the exact proportions (and even color) of the euro sign, regardless of the font in use, was just silly. That is very old history, as detailed on my website (http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro/euroglyph.html). More horrifying is the idiotic euro is immune to grammar error which continues to be broadcast daily by our television and radio stations, all because people with power lacked the moral courage to say oops, yeah, that was the wrong interpretation of the Directive which was intended to ensure clean typography. Sigh. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
Kenneth == Kenneth Whistler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: terra is not far behind (especially if disk sizes continue to grow). Kenneth Does that refer to physical disk sizes growing to global Kenneth scale, or disk contents sufficiently capacious to encompass Kenneth the entire store of terran information? Touch.(That is U+02AD for the utf8-impaired.) Does anyone have a good limerick lambasting typos? Or a haiku? ( , yes? ) -JimC
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
At 00:24 -0400 2003-08-14, John Cowan wrote: There are surely other countries that use $ as their currency symbol even though their currency is not called dollar. Such as Mexico, where $ means peso. In Portugal, cêntimo (officialy and in practice). It seems that the changelessness of this name was less severely enforced than the euro's. Except in Ireland, though the struggle continues. Lepton in Greek was accepted from the beginning. Leptó pl leptá. And through this revolting graveyard of the universe the muffled, maddening beating of drums, and thin, monotonous whine of blasphemous flutes from inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond Time; the detestable pounding and piping whereunto dance slowly, awkwardly, and absurdly the gigantic tenebrous ultimate gods -- the blind, voiceless, mindless gargoyles whose soul is Nyarlathotep. Now that takes me back -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
Anto'nio == Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anto'nio (Let alone the validity of things Anto'nio like k, c etc.) I'm sure things like m, k, M and even G will come into use, though I expect more will use them in front of the digits. I certainly use m$, k$ et al, and regulary see others use them. -JimC
Re: Handwritten EURO sign
Antnio Martins-Tuvlkin antonio at tuvalkin dot web dot pt wrote: I noticed a hand written euro sign with wavy strokes, consistently used by a person who is the chief accountant of an organizazion where I hold also a managing position (this meaning that I see a lot of these signs). Any symbol that looks remotely like a C with two (nearly) horizontal cross-strokes, appearing before a numeric value, will surely be recognized as a euro sign. This will only increase as time goes by. The original legislative attempt to dictate the exact proportions (and even color) of the euro sign, regardless of the font in use, was just silly. -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
Jim Cloos asked (B (B Or a haiku? (B (BAs long as we're off topic... A Haiku. Picking up on your 7 syllables, as (Bquoted by Ken, how about: (B (BUnfortunately (BTerra is not far behind (Bthe eight ball of God (B (BH... Well, that certainly lacks a seasonal suggestion... (B (B$B;M5(L5$7$N(B (B$B;m$r5-O?$9$k(B (B$BGO
Re: Handwritten EURO sign
Pim Blokland scripsit: I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The Irish authorities have adopted the extremely non-English habit of saying 30 euro and 5 cent instead of the natural and correct 30 euros and 5 cents, as if English were German. This style is required in legislation, but there is no reason to use it in common life. Michael is conducting a one-man crusade to bring this sociolinguistic nightmare to an end, so far without success. -- Do NOT stray from the path! John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] --Gandalf http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
James H. Cloos Jr. wrote: I'm sure things like m, k, M and even G will come into use, though I expect more will use them in front of the digits. Perhaps, but that would be incorrect, methinks: Using SI preffixes implies that one is adopting the said unit (the euro, in this case) as if it were a SI unit itself -- and thus all other formal rules of the SI would apply. This includes the rule about (number)+(nbsp)+(unit symbol). On 2003.08.06, 11:12, Philippe Verdy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the placement of the currency unit symbol or multiple is language dependant, and the same local practices are used with the euro, as the one used for pre-euro currencies. You mean that Dutch should write one euro as 1,- , while Portuguese as 100, and perhaps British as 1.00?... It may be the case, but I'd found that a bad idea and worth fighting against. Some habits are indeed language dependant, but some others are just tradition (some of it imposed as logic and correct decades ago, like compulsive caseless singular for SI units in speech), and should not necessarily apply. After all the euro is a common currency and its figures should be written in a common way. In fact, the position of the currency unit and decimal separator or placement of the negative sign depends mostly of the current locale (language/region) and not on the indicated currency, so this convention is applied locally for *all* currency units. Nope, this is not true: While for any Portuguese the logical and usual way to express one escudo is (was) 1$00, it would be not only ridiculous but even not understandable to write one pound as 1£00 or even less one dollar as 1$00. I'm sure this applies to other locales as well. Using the cent sign is mostly US specific and the symbol is not recognized as such in most European countries, so the cent sign is bound directly to the dollar. Perhaps, but any one outside Portugal would say the same about $, while (as recently reported on this list), this symbol has been used for the escudo from 1911 to 2001 and its semantics in current portuguese society is money and not any specific currency. The $ symbol is used also in Cape Verde and possibly will be used in East Timor for local currency, adding to its trivial usage in Australia and New Zealand (at least). If the dollar sign can be used for currencies other than the USD, even for some which name is not even dollar, then I suppose there is a theoreitical possiblity that it may be used as a symbol of euro cent (though I personally prefer c). For example, here in France where the cent of a euro is named centime (plural centimes) rather than cent In Portugal, cêntimo (officialy and in practice). It seems that the changelessness of this name was less severely enforced than the euro's. -- . António MARTINS-Tuválkin, | ()| [EMAIL PROTECTED] || R. Laureano de Oliveira, 64 r/c esq. | PT-1885-050 MOSCAVIDE (LRS) Não me invejo de quem tem | +351 934 821 700 carros, parelhas e montes | http://www.tuvalkin.web.pt/bandeira/ só me invejo de quem bebe | http://pagina.de/bandeiras/ a água em todas as fontes |
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
On 14/08/2003 09:50, Michael Everson wrote: In Ireland of course when we used pence we wrote 2p and said two pee. And we still do in the UK! -- Peter Kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] (personal) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) http://www.qaya.org/
RE: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin wrote: On 2003.08.06, 11:12, Philippe Verdy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the placement of the currency unit symbol or multiple is language dependant, and the same local practices are used with the euro, as the one used for pre-euro currencies. You mean that Dutch should write one euro as 1,- EUR, while Portuguese as 1EUR00, and perhaps British as EUR 1.00?... It may be the case, but I'd found that a bad idea and worth fighting against. Why? Different countries always used different characters as decimal or grouping separators for numbers. The Italian for one and a half euros is uno virgola cinquanta euro (where virgola means comma). Should we say comma and write a dot!? After all the euro is a common currency and its figures should be written in a common way. Why? In fact, the position of the currency unit and decimal separator or placement of the negative sign depends mostly of the current locale (language/region) and not on the indicated currency, so this convention is applied locally for *all* currency units. Nope, this is not true: In most cases, it is: amounts in foreign currency are normally formatted according to local conventions. E.g. a price in US$ on an Italian magazine would probably be formatted as $2.345,50, not $2,345.50 or 2,345$50¢. Using the cent sign is mostly US specific and the symbol is not recognized as such in most European countries, so the cent sign is bound directly to the dollar. [...] then I suppose there is a theoreitical possiblity that it may be used as a symbol of euro cent (though I personally prefer cEUR). The problem is not *which* symbol to use for cent: it is the concept itself that cents may need a symbol which is not familiar in most EU countries. I guess that Ireland is the only euro-zone country where you can see a price expressed in cents, such as 55 cents. In most other countries of Europe, the same amount would be expressed as 0.55 euros. _ Marco
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
After all the euro is a common currency and its figures should be written in a common way. Why? Why, too? This is absolutely not required by the european directives, which has already stated different names for the subdivision for each language, and accepted distinct plural forms, as well as using the national conventions which were already in use to designate amounts in local currency (now the euro) and foreign currencies (like the USD). As local conventions for foreign currencies were not affected by the Euro, they are still valid, and did not have to change. In fact, the position of the currency unit and decimal separator or placement of the negative sign depends mostly of the current locale (language/region) and not on the indicated currency, so this convention is applied locally for *all* currency units. Nope, this is not true: In most cases, it is: amounts in foreign currency are normally formatted according to local conventions. E.g. a price in US$ on an Italian magazine would probably be formatted as $2.345,50, not $2,345.50 or 2,345$50. And in France, 2 345,50$ (we already use the term virgule in ALL numeric designations, and I don't see why we should write it with a dot for amounts in euros...) Using the cent sign is mostly US specific and the symbol is not recognized as such in most European countries, so the cent sign is bound directly to the dollar. [...] then I suppose there is a theoreitical possiblity that it may be used as a symbol of euro cent (though I personally prefer cEUR). The problem is not *which* symbol to use for cent: it is the concept itself that cents may need a symbol which is not familiar in most EU countries. I guess that Ireland is the only euro-zone country where you can see a price expressed in cents, such as 55 cents. In most other countries of Europe, the same amount would be expressed as 0.55 euros. In France we use the translation centime for amounts in cents, notably in many phone rates (soon we will need to use millimes for local phone rates if prices are continuing to go lower, as they are now typically at 0,02/min, almost always announced like 2 centimes par minute with some operators pricing at 0,01/min, and our phone billings, calculated per second instead of minutes are already using detailed prices in thousands of euros.)
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
On Tuesday, August 05, 2003 10:54 PM, Stefan Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James H. Cloos Jr. wrote: Anto'nio == Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anto'nio (Let alone the validity of things Anto'nio like k, c etc.) I'm sure things like m, k, M and even G will come into use, though I expect more will use them in front of the digits. Certainly not: the placement of the currency unit symbol or multiple is language dependant, and the same local practices are used with the euro, as the one used for pre-euro currencies. In fact, the position of the currency unit and decimal separator or placement of the negative sign depends mostly of the current locale (language/region) and not on the indicated currency, so this convention is applied locally for *all* currency units. Using the cent sign is mostly US specific and the symbol is not recognized as such in most European countries, so the cent sign is bound directly to the dollar. Using c would be certainly better recognized as a cent of a euro rather than the cent sign. Such things may change in the future, but for now there's no commonly recognized symbold for the cent of a euro. For example, here in France where the cent of a euro is named centime (plural centimes) rather than cent which is written and read exactly like the number cent (100), small prices like phone call rates are written and pronounced like this 1,2 centimes/minute or written 0,012 /min, or 1,2 ct/min. There is NO symbol for the cent of a euro, even in ads which prefer an abbreviation like ct, previously used to designate a centime of the french franc and now used to designate a centime of the euro. I certainly use m$, k$ et al, and regulary see others use them. m and m$ would be millieuros and millidollars. How could anyone need anything like that? And why use c$ and c, wouldn't be just as good? The millieuros could be used, but it is not a natural sub-unit, and c would be more appropriate if it was recognized. For now the abbreviation ct is much more common. On the opposite, the multiples k (1 000,00 ) or M (1 000 000,00 ) are quite common in informal business documents, and G is quite rare. However these unit multiples are illegal in contractual documents and legal forms where only the symbol or the fully spelled amount is acceptable; some legal documents require to use both the numeric form with the symbol or EUR and the spelled amount both written within the same locale convention, for example in French: dix-huit centimes par minute (0,18 /min) or socit anonyme au capital de deux millions huit cent mille euros (2 800 000 ) -- Philippe. Spams non tolrs: tout message non sollicit sera rapport vos fournisseurs de services Internet.
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
Stefan == Stefan Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Stefan m and m$ would be millieuros and millidollars. How could Stefan anyone need anything like that? On this side of the pond, fuel prices per gallon are quoted in m$; I presume they quote m$ per Litre in CA, though it has been long enough that I cannot be sure what I remember about ON stations Presorted bulk mail in the states is priced such that the per-item rates are not integral cents; you can even buy stamps at rates like 14.xxx . I could see people discussing those using m$ or even $. However, the specific places *I* used m$ were in micropayment discussions. Stefan And why use c$ and c, wouldn't be just as good? You'll not I didnt use centi. -JimC
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
Michael Everson schreef: You are lucky not having to put up with bad English like five euro and six cent, living in the Netherlands and speaking Dutch as you do. Funny. In our language, the euro behaves just as the guilder always did, that is, the very same as what you call bad English. We can say five euro and six cent as well. However, I presume this is caused by a grammar rule: you're not talking about the coins, but about an amount of money. So if I say I've got 5 euro in my pocket, I mean an amount totalling to 5.-. And if I say I've got 5 euros, I mean 5 of the coins. But you'll probably disagree, saying that it's alright with Dutch being another language and such, and as we're extremely off topic by now, I propose not continuing this thread on this list. If you do want to argue, you know my email address. Pim Blokland
Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
On 2003.08.05, 16:55, Doug Ewell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Any symbol that looks remotely like a C with two (nearly) horizontal cross-strokes, appearing before a numeric value, Actually, most people here use it *after* the number. Which is only logical, if we follow speech, common sence and the International System of Measures and Weights. However I did read a big and glossy style manual about the euro sign back in 2001 and nothing was said about its reccomended placement respective to the number. (Let alone the validity of things like k, c etc.) OTOH, in my previous job as websmith (I wasn't really designing anything, just HTML) for a banking software company, I used the dollar cent symbol U+00A2 for euro cents and nobody even raised a brow about it (this was in mid-2001). The particular set of screen interfaces thus composed were part of a project that went belly up sometime later (already in production stage, dont blame me!), but it might have been inherited by other projects... -- . António MARTINS-Tuválkin, | ()| [EMAIL PROTECTED] || R. Laureano de Oliveira, 64 r/c esq. | PT-1885-050 MOSCAVIDE (LRS) Não me invejo de quem tem | +351 934 821 700 carros, parelhas e montes | http://www.tuvalkin.web.pt/bandeira/ só me invejo de quem bebe | http://pagina.de/bandeiras/ a água em todas as fontes |
Re: Handwritten EURO sign
On 2003.02.07, 15:42, Marion Gunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wonder if any Unicoders have seen the handwritten EURO sign which differs substantially from the usual computer-generated kind? I noticed a hand written euro sign with wavy strokes, consistently used by a person who is the chief accountant of an organizazion where I hold also a managing position (this meaning that I see a lot of these signs). The person in question is a retired Portuguese Air Force technical officer, who had a great deal of contact with british engineers. I note that his pound sign is similarly stricken. Attached two examples of this glyph, composed using Times New Roman, and also the refered pound sign U+00A3 (which is not distinguishable from U+20A4, as both have two strokes.) I may scan samples of the original, if there is interest. -- . António MARTINS-Tuválkin, | ()| [EMAIL PROTECTED] || R. Laureano de Oliveira, 64 r/c esq. | PT-1885-050 MOSCAVIDE (LRS) Não me invejo de quem tem | +351 934 821 700 carros, parelhas e montes | http://www.tuvalkin.web.pt/bandeira/ só me invejo de quem bebe | http://pagina.de/bandeiras/ a água em todas as fontes |attachment: U20AC~~.GIF
Handwritten EURO sign
I wonder if any Unicoders have seen the handwritten EURO sign which differs substantially from the usual computer-generated kind? The one on the banknotes (lefthanded Crescent Moon with double bar) is quite unlike one used around here (rounded reversed digit THREE with double bar). Any ideas? Reminded to post this by seeing the latter in very large handwriting yesterday, at the pay-in desk to popular football grounds close to where I live. mg -- Marion Gunn * EGT (Estab.1991) * http://www.egt.ie * fiosruithe/enquiries: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * [EMAIL PROTECTED] *
Re: Handwritten EURO sign
At 14:42 + 2003-02-07, Marion Gunn wrote: I wonder if any Unicoders have seen the handwritten EURO sign which differs substantially from the usual computer-generated kind? I have seen a C with an equals sign inside it not touching the C. The one on the banknotes (lefthanded Crescent Moon with double bar) is quite unlike one used around here (rounded reversed digit THREE with double bar). That sounds like a script capital E with a double bar. You may find the discussion at http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro/euroglyph.html of interest. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
RE: Handwritten EURO sign
Marion Gunn wrote: I wonder if any Unicoders have seen the handwritten EURO sign which differs substantially from the usual computer-generated kind? In Italy, it is becoming common to see a sort of left parenthesis crossed by a small Z. Notice that this is very similar to a common handwritten forms of the lira symbol (£): a vertical line crossed by a small Z. _ Marco
Re: Handwritten EURO sign
The latest issue of Baseline (www.baselinemagazine.com) has an article on the Euro. I did not read it, so I don't know if it speaks of handwritten forms. Sign of the times: the euro currency symbol by Conor Mangat. Eric.
