Re: OT: Catalina - the end of ad hoc & in-house development?

[Rick Harrison via use-livecode]

That behavior does not sound any different from
what we have experienced in older versions of
macOS such as High Sierra.  Perhaps it won’t
get worse until later versions of Catalina?

Thanks for the test Marty!

Rick

> On Sep 11, 2019, at 8:43 PM, Marty Knapp via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Just tried my previous tests with non-signed, non-notarized apps with the 
> Catalina beta 8 (just released today) with the same result as beta 7. I also  
> zipped an app, transferred it to the Catalina machine via thumb drive, then 
> unzipped and ran without complaint or warning. So it would appear that  
> downloaded apps are what triggers the warning.
> 
> Marty

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: OT: Catalina - the end of ad hoc & in-house development?

[Marty Knapp via use-livecode]

Just tried my previous tests with non-signed, non-notarized apps with the 
Catalina beta 8 (just released today) with the same result as beta 7. I also  
zipped an app, transferred it to the Catalina machine via thumb drive, then 
unzipped and ran without complaint or warning. So it would appear that  
downloaded apps are what triggers the warning.

Marty

> On Sep 11, 2019, at 5:13 PM, Marty Knapp  wrote:
> 
> I just tried 2 apps that I built in LC 9.5 business. I have Catalina beta 7 
> installed. Neither app was code signed or notarized. I moved the apps to that 
> machine via a thumb drive and did not zip compress either one. They both 
> launched on Catalina beta without complaint. 
> 
> Next I zipped one of the apps and uploaded to my server and then downloaded 
> it to the Catalina beta. This time when I tried to open, I got the message 
> that it could not be opened because its integrity couldn’t be verified. The 
> only options were “Move to trash” or “cancel”
> 
> I then right clicked and chose Open and again got the warning about not being 
> able to verify but now had an additional option to open, which it did. I quit 
> and opened again - this time with no warnings or trouble.
> 
> I did just get a notice that beta 8 is available. Will test when I get it 
> installed.
> 
> Marty
> 
>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 11:07 AM, Richmond via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> The most telling test is if anyone who has a Catalina beta installed runs 
>> off a Macintosh
>> standalone and sees if they can run it themselves: wether from the Open 
>> Source version or
>> one of the commercial versions.
>> 
>> Richmond.
>> 
>> On 11.09.19 18:21, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Keeping a clear look at things... That $100/yr does include "beta OS 
>>> releases, advanced app capabilities, technical support, and tools to 
>>> develop, test, and distribute apps." At one time one could get past OSs, 
>>> but I don't think it is the case now. And you could go down to the test 
>>> warehouse and test on old machines.
>>> 
>>> On the Windows side, I have used MSDN Universal ($2200/yr) and MSDN 
>>> Operating Systems ($700/yr) in the past. The latter might be comparable to 
>>> the Apple Developer membership. Well, it was when you could get past OSes 
>>> from Apple.
>>> 
>>> I have seen ads for codesigning certs that work for both Apple and Windows. 
>>> I don't know what that means. And I don't know why the fees for 2nd and 3rd 
>>> years are so high.
>>> 
>>> Dar
>>> 
>>> Senior Consultant
>>> Dar Scott Consulting
>>> 
>>> Mad Scientist
>>> darzLab
>>> 
 On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:38 AM, JJS via use-livecode 
  wrote:
 
 The ratio of money asked from devs is also of course: (considered mobile)
 
 Mobile Operating Systems   Percentage Market Share
 Mobile Operating System Market Share Worldwide - August 2019
 Android76.23%
 iOS22.17%
 KaiOS  0.59%
 Unknown0.26%
 Samsung0.21%
 Windows0.2%
 
 So apple iOs is somewhat increasing this year, in 2018 it was 15% 
 worldwide.
 
 Apple asks 100$ yearly --iOs/ (and macOS)
 
 Google ask 25$ one time fee -- Android
 
 Amazon is FREE ! (for the time being) -- Kindle which is just Android
 
 You can also use other platforms for free like Fdroid
 
 Beats me why Apple charges so much yearly while the gain i think is to 
 lower that cost as they earn money from your sales anyway.
 
 Is there an alternative platform for iOs/macOs ?
 
 
 Op 11-9-2019 om 07:57 schreef Peter Reid via use-livecode:
> I've been reading the responses to my original posting with interest. My 
> thoughts are as follows:
> 
> 1. Matthias Rebbe's tutorial and helper stack seem to be excellent and 
> appear to be the best way of complying with Apple's requirements, for 
> now. Let's hope that Matthias can maintain this as Apple move the 
> goalposts over time! If Matthias is unable to sustain these aids I'd hope 
> that the LC mothership would adopt them.
> 
> 2. A lot of the apps I develop are used by immediate friends and family 
> (and a tiny circle of customers). They are private developments for use 
> in closed communities. Apple have no right to be involved in these and 
> the extended development cycle caused by their involvement is just 
> unnecessary pain.
> 
> 3. If Apple's measures really did provide bullet-proof protection the 
> pain could be justified given the gain. However we know that this 
> protection process is continuous and it becomes more and more onerous 
> over time whilst still providing partial protection for a limited time.
> 
> 4. If the Apple measures were a simple switchable setting I could switch 
> them off whilst I check the user experience for a new user. Then I could 
> switch the features back on to see the fully Apple-ised 

Re: OT: Catalina - the end of ad hoc & in-house development?

[Marty Knapp via use-livecode]

I just tried 2 apps that I built in LC 9.5 business. I have Catalina beta 7 
installed. Neither app was code signed or notarized. I moved the apps to that 
machine via a thumb drive and did not zip compress either one. They both 
launched on Catalina beta without complaint. 

Next I zipped one of the apps and uploaded to my server and then downloaded it 
to the Catalina beta. This time when I tried to open, I got the message that it 
could not be opened because its integrity couldn’t be verified. The only 
options were “Move to trash” or “cancel”

I then right clicked and chose Open and again got the warning about not being 
able to verify but now had an additional option to open, which it did. I quit 
and opened again - this time with no warnings or trouble.

I did just get a notice that beta 8 is available. Will test when I get it 
installed.

Marty

> On Sep 11, 2019, at 11:07 AM, Richmond via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> The most telling test is if anyone who has a Catalina beta installed runs off 
> a Macintosh
> standalone and sees if they can run it themselves: wether from the Open 
> Source version or
> one of the commercial versions.
> 
> Richmond.
> 
> On 11.09.19 18:21, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>> Keeping a clear look at things... That $100/yr does include "beta OS 
>> releases, advanced app capabilities, technical support, and tools to 
>> develop, test, and distribute apps." At one time one could get past OSs, but 
>> I don't think it is the case now. And you could go down to the test 
>> warehouse and test on old machines.
>> 
>> On the Windows side, I have used MSDN Universal ($2200/yr) and MSDN 
>> Operating Systems ($700/yr) in the past. The latter might be comparable to 
>> the Apple Developer membership. Well, it was when you could get past OSes 
>> from Apple.
>> 
>> I have seen ads for codesigning certs that work for both Apple and Windows. 
>> I don't know what that means. And I don't know why the fees for 2nd and 3rd 
>> years are so high.
>> 
>> Dar
>> 
>> Senior Consultant
>> Dar Scott Consulting
>> 
>> Mad Scientist
>> darzLab
>> 
>>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:38 AM, JJS via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The ratio of money asked from devs is also of course: (considered mobile)
>>> 
>>> Mobile Operating SystemsPercentage Market Share
>>> Mobile Operating System Market Share Worldwide - August 2019
>>> Android 76.23%
>>> iOS 22.17%
>>> KaiOS   0.59%
>>> Unknown 0.26%
>>> Samsung 0.21%
>>> Windows 0.2%
>>> 
>>> So apple iOs is somewhat increasing this year, in 2018 it was 15% worldwide.
>>> 
>>> Apple asks 100$ yearly --iOs/ (and macOS)
>>> 
>>> Google ask 25$ one time fee -- Android
>>> 
>>> Amazon is FREE ! (for the time being) -- Kindle which is just Android
>>> 
>>> You can also use other platforms for free like Fdroid
>>> 
>>> Beats me why Apple charges so much yearly while the gain i think is to 
>>> lower that cost as they earn money from your sales anyway.
>>> 
>>> Is there an alternative platform for iOs/macOs ?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Op 11-9-2019 om 07:57 schreef Peter Reid via use-livecode:
 I've been reading the responses to my original posting with interest. My 
 thoughts are as follows:
 
 1. Matthias Rebbe's tutorial and helper stack seem to be excellent and 
 appear to be the best way of complying with Apple's requirements, for now. 
 Let's hope that Matthias can maintain this as Apple move the goalposts 
 over time! If Matthias is unable to sustain these aids I'd hope that the 
 LC mothership would adopt them.
 
 2. A lot of the apps I develop are used by immediate friends and family 
 (and a tiny circle of customers). They are private developments for use in 
 closed communities. Apple have no right to be involved in these and the 
 extended development cycle caused by their involvement is just unnecessary 
 pain.
 
 3. If Apple's measures really did provide bullet-proof protection the pain 
 could be justified given the gain. However we know that this protection 
 process is continuous and it becomes more and more onerous over time 
 whilst still providing partial protection for a limited time.
 
 4. If the Apple measures were a simple switchable setting I could switch 
 them off whilst I check the user experience for a new user. Then I could 
 switch the features back on to see the fully Apple-ised experience. As it 
 is now, using the current Catalina beta on my development Mac, I see no 
 blocking or warnings. So I've no way of testing the user experience on my 
 development Mac. I have to find another Mac to act as my newbie user. Even 
 then if such a Mac has been a previous newbie, how do you neutralise it to 
 relive the newbie experience?
 
 5. The $100 charge each year is inexcusable. Basically Apple are saying 
 "We'll make any app development more tedious unless you pay up $100 every 

RE: Merge and unicode

[Ralph DiMola via use-livecode]

I have to look back and find my timings but I think I got a 10x or better
performance by creating the styled text array and then setting the field to
it.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2019 4:54 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: J. Landman Gay
Subject: Re: Merge and unicode

On 9/11/19 12:28 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> I'll wager using a styledText array for this will be fun to write and will
perform very well.

I took a look. You'd win that wager. I didn't test performance (haven't
written the handler yet) but getting the styledText of an existing list
retains the correct characters.


-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Merge and unicode

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 9/11/19 12:28 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

I'll wager using a styledText array for this will be fun to write and will 
perform very well.


I took a look. You'd win that wager. I didn't test performance (haven't 
written the handler yet) but getting the styledText of an existing list 
retains the correct characters.



--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Odd paste in 9.5

[Richmond via use-livecode]

Thanks, I saw your message.

best, Richmond.

On 11.09.19 23:06, dunbarx--- via use-livecode wrote:

Richmond.
I do not see this in either v 8 or v.9. Both methods work just fine.
I am not sure that you will see this post. I am having issues with the use 
list. If I do not see it, I will forward to the forums
Craig


-Original Message-
From: Richmond via use-livecode 
To: use-livecode 
Cc: Richmond 
Sent: Wed, Sep 11, 2019 3:23 pm
Subject: Odd paste in 9.5

This seems very odd indeed . . .

Macintosh 10.14.something-or-other

When I copy-paste an image from one card to the next with the menu and a
mouse the image pastes correctly,
when I copy-paste with CMD-C, CMD-P the resultant image is a solid black
colour.

Richmond

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Odd paste in 9.5

[dunbarx--- via use-livecode]

Richmond.
I do not see this in either v 8 or v.9. Both methods work just fine.
I am not sure that you will see this post. I am having issues with the use 
list. If I do not see it, I will forward to the forums
Craig


-Original Message-
From: Richmond via use-livecode 
To: use-livecode 
Cc: Richmond 
Sent: Wed, Sep 11, 2019 3:23 pm
Subject: Odd paste in 9.5

This seems very odd indeed . . .

Macintosh 10.14.something-or-other

When I copy-paste an image from one card to the next with the menu and a 
mouse the image pastes correctly,
when I copy-paste with CMD-C, CMD-P the resultant image is a solid black 
colour.

Richmond

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Odd paste in 9.5

[Richmond via use-livecode]

Err, yeah, CMD-V: sometimes get the image, sometimes get a black 
rectangle, varies.


You, me and our MacMinis . . . a match made in h***.  :)

Richmond.

On 11.09.19 23:01, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:

Hi Richmond,


Am 11.09.2019 um 21:22 schrieb Richmond via use-livecode 
:

This seems very odd indeed . . .

Macintosh 10.14.something-or-other

When I copy-paste an image from one card to the next with the menu and a mouse 
the image pastes correctly,
when I copy-paste with CMD-C, CMD-P

CMD-P = print 8-)


the resultant image is a solid black colour.

Quick test on macOS 10.14.6 and LC 9.5 on my MacMini, no problem with shortcuts 
CMD-C/CMD-V
or any other way of copy/paste here!?


Richmond

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
kl...@major-k.de


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Odd paste in 9.5

[Klaus major-k via use-livecode]

Hi Richmond,

> Am 11.09.2019 um 21:22 schrieb Richmond via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> This seems very odd indeed . . .
> 
> Macintosh 10.14.something-or-other
> 
> When I copy-paste an image from one card to the next with the menu and a 
> mouse the image pastes correctly,
> when I copy-paste with CMD-C, CMD-P

CMD-P = print 8-)

> the resultant image is a solid black colour.

Quick test on macOS 10.14.6 and LC 9.5 on my MacMini, no problem with shortcuts 
CMD-C/CMD-V
or any other way of copy/paste here!?

> Richmond

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
kl...@major-k.de


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Password nonsense

[Richmond via use-livecode]

So, I have a LiveCode project called GRANTHA for inputting
text in Glagolitic and Old Church Slavonic, and for a while
I developed it using a commercial version of LiveCode.

Now I am developing it witht he Open Source version of LiveCode,
but, everytime I build standalones it slows things down by chucking
up a load of dialogues anent passwords like this:

"There was an error applying a password to stack KIRIL."

Is there anyway, in the Community version I can use the
standalone builder to remove those password
from those stacks so I don't have to keep going through
that unnecessary rigmarole?

Richmond.

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Odd paste in 9.5

[Richmond via use-livecode]

This seems very odd indeed . . .

Macintosh 10.14.something-or-other

When I copy-paste an image from one card to the next with the menu and a 
mouse the image pastes correctly,
when I copy-paste with CMD-C, CMD-P the resultant image is a solid black 
colour.


Richmond

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: OT: Catalina - the end of ad hoc & in-house development?

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

Just a couple of comments:

On 9/11/19 12:57 AM, Peter Reid via use-livecode wrote:

5. The $100 charge each year is inexcusable. Basically Apple are saying "We'll make 
any app development more tedious unless you pay up $100 every year.". Even the 
development of the simplest app, to be used as a temporary tool by a couple of friends 
will be blighted by warnings,  etc. if you don't pay $100 per year and jump through the 
hoops! Apple are deliberately making life more difficult and charging us $100 a year for 
the privilege!


Apple now offers a free developer account for personal apps that aren't 
for sale.




7. If a new-to-LC developer wants to do the usual "Hello World" trivial 1st app 
(making an executable standalone app), they have to understand code-signing, notarising 
and stapling, DMG/ZIP creation and be signed/paid-up Apple developers.


For testing on your own phone you don't need any of that. Just cable the 
phone to the computer (or use the simulator) and you're good to go.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: OT: Catalina - the end of ad hoc & in-house development?

[Richmond via use-livecode]

The most telling test is if anyone who has a Catalina beta installed 
runs off a Macintosh
standalone and sees if they can run it themselves: wether from the Open 
Source version or

one of the commercial versions.

Richmond.

On 11.09.19 18:21, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:

Keeping a clear look at things... That $100/yr does include "beta OS releases, 
advanced app capabilities, technical support, and tools to develop, test, and distribute 
apps." At one time one could get past OSs, but I don't think it is the case now. And 
you could go down to the test warehouse and test on old machines.

On the Windows side, I have used MSDN Universal ($2200/yr) and MSDN Operating 
Systems ($700/yr) in the past. The latter might be comparable to the Apple 
Developer membership. Well, it was when you could get past OSes from Apple.

I have seen ads for codesigning certs that work for both Apple and Windows. I 
don't know what that means. And I don't know why the fees for 2nd and 3rd years 
are so high.

Dar

Senior Consultant
Dar Scott Consulting

Mad Scientist
darzLab


On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:38 AM, JJS via use-livecode 
 wrote:

The ratio of money asked from devs is also of course: (considered mobile)

Mobile Operating SystemsPercentage Market Share
Mobile Operating System Market Share Worldwide - August 2019
Android 76.23%
iOS 22.17%
KaiOS   0.59%
Unknown 0.26%
Samsung 0.21%
Windows 0.2%

So apple iOs is somewhat increasing this year, in 2018 it was 15% worldwide.

Apple asks 100$ yearly --iOs/ (and macOS)

Google ask 25$ one time fee -- Android

Amazon is FREE ! (for the time being) -- Kindle which is just Android

You can also use other platforms for free like Fdroid

Beats me why Apple charges so much yearly while the gain i think is to lower 
that cost as they earn money from your sales anyway.

Is there an alternative platform for iOs/macOs ?


Op 11-9-2019 om 07:57 schreef Peter Reid via use-livecode:

I've been reading the responses to my original posting with interest. My 
thoughts are as follows:

1. Matthias Rebbe's tutorial and helper stack seem to be excellent and appear 
to be the best way of complying with Apple's requirements, for now. Let's hope 
that Matthias can maintain this as Apple move the goalposts over time! If 
Matthias is unable to sustain these aids I'd hope that the LC mothership would 
adopt them.

2. A lot of the apps I develop are used by immediate friends and family (and a 
tiny circle of customers). They are private developments for use in closed 
communities. Apple have no right to be involved in these and the extended 
development cycle caused by their involvement is just unnecessary pain.

3. If Apple's measures really did provide bullet-proof protection the pain 
could be justified given the gain. However we know that this protection process 
is continuous and it becomes more and more onerous over time whilst still 
providing partial protection for a limited time.

4. If the Apple measures were a simple switchable setting I could switch them 
off whilst I check the user experience for a new user. Then I could switch the 
features back on to see the fully Apple-ised experience. As it is now, using 
the current Catalina beta on my development Mac, I see no blocking or warnings. 
So I've no way of testing the user experience on my development Mac. I have to 
find another Mac to act as my newbie user. Even then if such a Mac has been a 
previous newbie, how do you neutralise it to relive the newbie experience?

5. The $100 charge each year is inexcusable. Basically Apple are saying "We'll make 
any app development more tedious unless you pay up $100 every year.". Even the 
development of the simplest app, to be used as a temporary tool by a couple of friends 
will be blighted by warnings,  etc. if you don't pay $100 per year and jump through the 
hoops! Apple are deliberately making life more difficult and charging us $100 a year for 
the privilege!

6. I wonder how much developer time world-wide is wasted jumping through 
Apple's hoops, especially those developers without the benefit of LC and 
Matthias' tools?

7. If a new-to-LC developer wants to do the usual "Hello World" trivial 1st app 
(making an executable standalone app), they have to understand code-signing, notarising 
and stapling, DMG/ZIP creation and be signed/paid-up Apple developers.

Thanks to Matthias, you're a life/sanity saver, but I still find the prospects 
as an app developer rather depressing!

Peter
--
Peter Reid
Loughborough, UK


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 

Re: OT: Catalina - the end of ad hoc & in-house development?

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Keeping a clear look at things... That $100/yr does include "beta OS releases, 
advanced app capabilities, technical support, and tools to develop, test, and 
distribute apps." At one time one could get past OSs, but I don't think it is 
the case now. And you could go down to the test warehouse and test on old 
machines.

On the Windows side, I have used MSDN Universal ($2200/yr) and MSDN Operating 
Systems ($700/yr) in the past. The latter might be comparable to the Apple 
Developer membership. Well, it was when you could get past OSes from Apple.

I have seen ads for codesigning certs that work for both Apple and Windows. I 
don't know what that means. And I don't know why the fees for 2nd and 3rd years 
are so high.

Dar

Senior Consultant
Dar Scott Consulting

Mad Scientist
darzLab

> On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:38 AM, JJS via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> The ratio of money asked from devs is also of course: (considered mobile)
> 
> Mobile Operating Systems  Percentage Market Share
> Mobile Operating System Market Share Worldwide - August 2019
> Android   76.23%
> iOS   22.17%
> KaiOS 0.59%
> Unknown   0.26%
> Samsung   0.21%
> Windows   0.2%
> 
> So apple iOs is somewhat increasing this year, in 2018 it was 15% worldwide.
> 
> Apple asks 100$ yearly --iOs/ (and macOS)
> 
> Google ask 25$ one time fee -- Android
> 
> Amazon is FREE ! (for the time being) -- Kindle which is just Android
> 
> You can also use other platforms for free like Fdroid
> 
> Beats me why Apple charges so much yearly while the gain i think is to lower 
> that cost as they earn money from your sales anyway.
> 
> Is there an alternative platform for iOs/macOs ?
> 
> 
> Op 11-9-2019 om 07:57 schreef Peter Reid via use-livecode:
>> I've been reading the responses to my original posting with interest. My 
>> thoughts are as follows:
>> 
>> 1. Matthias Rebbe's tutorial and helper stack seem to be excellent and 
>> appear to be the best way of complying with Apple's requirements, for now. 
>> Let's hope that Matthias can maintain this as Apple move the goalposts over 
>> time! If Matthias is unable to sustain these aids I'd hope that the LC 
>> mothership would adopt them.
>> 
>> 2. A lot of the apps I develop are used by immediate friends and family (and 
>> a tiny circle of customers). They are private developments for use in closed 
>> communities. Apple have no right to be involved in these and the extended 
>> development cycle caused by their involvement is just unnecessary pain.
>> 
>> 3. If Apple's measures really did provide bullet-proof protection the pain 
>> could be justified given the gain. However we know that this protection 
>> process is continuous and it becomes more and more onerous over time whilst 
>> still providing partial protection for a limited time.
>> 
>> 4. If the Apple measures were a simple switchable setting I could switch 
>> them off whilst I check the user experience for a new user. Then I could 
>> switch the features back on to see the fully Apple-ised experience. As it is 
>> now, using the current Catalina beta on my development Mac, I see no 
>> blocking or warnings. So I've no way of testing the user experience on my 
>> development Mac. I have to find another Mac to act as my newbie user. Even 
>> then if such a Mac has been a previous newbie, how do you neutralise it to 
>> relive the newbie experience?
>> 
>> 5. The $100 charge each year is inexcusable. Basically Apple are saying 
>> "We'll make any app development more tedious unless you pay up $100 every 
>> year.". Even the development of the simplest app, to be used as a temporary 
>> tool by a couple of friends will be blighted by warnings,  etc. if you don't 
>> pay $100 per year and jump through the hoops! Apple are deliberately making 
>> life more difficult and charging us $100 a year for the privilege!
>> 
>> 6. I wonder how much developer time world-wide is wasted jumping through 
>> Apple's hoops, especially those developers without the benefit of LC and 
>> Matthias' tools?
>> 
>> 7. If a new-to-LC developer wants to do the usual "Hello World" trivial 1st 
>> app (making an executable standalone app), they have to understand 
>> code-signing, notarising and stapling, DMG/ZIP creation and be 
>> signed/paid-up Apple developers.
>> 
>> Thanks to Matthias, you're a life/sanity saver, but I still find the 
>> prospects as an app developer rather depressing!
>> 
>> Peter
>> --
>> Peter Reid
>> Loughborough, UK
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
>> preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
> 

Re: Stop Integer Coercion to Scientific Notation in JSON

[panagiotis merakos via use-livecode]

Hello all,

There is not a lost of precision in the operations. The problem is just
that LCB *displays* the value of large numbers in scientific notation, but
if you actually do any calculations with the variables that hold these
numbers, the calculations are accurate.

In other words the variables do hold the full value - it is the emission
which is turning them into the scientific notation.
(emisson as text in json)

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Panos
--

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 at 16:29, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> One tries his best to not get excited by bugs that are left untouched,
> With some OS's to. keep current, engineering  has a tough time, we all know
> that … but this one pushes a button…
>
> bug https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18159
>
>
> How can such a bug go unfixed for three years? Computing should be "exact"
> when comes to simple "arithmetic"  operations, after all the CPU is nothing
> but passing bit and bytes around, in large equations. …. if "arithmetic"
> operations are off all Apps and any OS would immediately have a meltdown
>
> So to have a process that loses digits from a simple integer > 100,000 Is
> "unconscionable "
> …for a language of the 21century
>
> We need to know that we can depend on "seconds" through all
> processes…"time" is fundamental to computing at all levels.
>
> You should put this on the list a top priority.
>
> With so many apps now working with the cloud, REST/XML and related
> proprietary transfers using JSON.  It is ever more in important that we can
> depend of LiveCode for the simple act of keeping a number/integer (any
> size) intact!
>
> At least I think I have a hack: to store time as a string -- the internet
> time in the json to keep in intact and to convert it after unpacking, and
> before store again but  something as simple as
>
> put ( (the seconds) +3600) into tOneHourLater
>
> Should always work.
>
> God help anyone using Livecode widgets/LCB extensions for physics.
>
> BR
>
>
>
> Hello Brahmanathaswami,
>
> I think this is because of how currently some handlers in lcb work.
>
> See bug https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18159 (and the
> related bugs) for more details.
>
> This affects other areas, such as how large numbers are shown in the
> variables pane in the debugger.
>
> Kind regards,
> Panos
> --
>
> On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 at 22:59, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
> wrote:
> setPref "preferences/global/lastRunDate", (the seconds) # e.g 1568144731
>
> put getPref ("preferences/global/lastRunDate") into tLastRunDate
>
> returns
> {"preferences":
> {"global":
> {"lastRunDate": 1.56814e+09},
> [snip]
>
> # we are using jsonImport
>
>  put jsonImport(tJSON) into tPreferencesA
>
> # handle data and
>
> put jsonExport(tPreferencesA) into tJSON.
>
> # thereafter my simple arithmetic functions like
>
> put (tLastRunDate + 3600) into 1HourLater
>
> # now throw a "left operand" error
>
> How can we prevent the coercion of simple integer notation to scientific?
>
> Why is it needed for simple 10 digit number is beyond me.
>
> There is nothing about automatic coercion in the dictionary.
>
> BR
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Catalina - the end of ad hoc & in-house development?

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode]

Ditto what Kee said

I so happy with this thread… I didn't know about Matthias's tool's!

Oh.. My.. I do a lot of in house/volunteer tooIs, ….the number of times in the 
past few years have tell, send email, send them to web site… to "Go to System 
Preferences, General down below you will see the app was blocked, click on 
"Allow to open".

Never have to deal with that question ever again? A small developers fee and 
Signing app, is well worth it.

for Windows, I just tell them "ignore security warnings"  Windows users are 
used to that…

Thank you Matthias!

Kee said:
I know a bunch of users who click on everything and download stuff and agree to 
all sorts of silly stuff and then claim that they have been hacked (and perhaps 
they have been hacked). I’m OK with extra steps if the OS becomes safer for 
folks who really do not understand security.
___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Stop Integer Coercion to Scientific Notation in JSON

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode]

One tries his best to not get excited by bugs that are left untouched, With 
some OS's to. keep current, engineering  has a tough time, we all know that … 
but this one pushes a button…

bug https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18159


How can such a bug go unfixed for three years? Computing should be "exact" when 
comes to simple "arithmetic"  operations, after all the CPU is nothing but 
passing bit and bytes around, in large equations. …. if "arithmetic" operations 
are off all Apps and any OS would immediately have a meltdown

So to have a process that loses digits from a simple integer > 100,000 Is 
"unconscionable "
…for a language of the 21century

We need to know that we can depend on "seconds" through all processes…"time" is 
fundamental to computing at all levels.

You should put this on the list a top priority.

With so many apps now working with the cloud, REST/XML and related proprietary 
transfers using JSON.  It is ever more in important that we can depend of 
LiveCode for the simple act of keeping a number/integer (any size) intact!

At least I think I have a hack: to store time as a string -- the internet time 
in the json to keep in intact and to convert it after unpacking, and before 
store again but  something as simple as

put ( (the seconds) +3600) into tOneHourLater

Should always work.

God help anyone using Livecode widgets/LCB extensions for physics.

BR



Hello Brahmanathaswami,

I think this is because of how currently some handlers in lcb work.

See bug https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18159 (and the related 
bugs) for more details.

This affects other areas, such as how large numbers are shown in the variables 
pane in the debugger.

Kind regards,
Panos
--

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 at 22:59, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
setPref "preferences/global/lastRunDate", (the seconds) # e.g 1568144731

put getPref ("preferences/global/lastRunDate") into tLastRunDate

returns
{"preferences":
{"global":
{"lastRunDate": 1.56814e+09}, [snip]

# we are using jsonImport

 put jsonImport(tJSON) into tPreferencesA

# handle data and

put jsonExport(tPreferencesA) into tJSON.

# thereafter my simple arithmetic functions like

put (tLastRunDate + 3600) into 1HourLater

# now throw a "left operand" error

How can we prevent the coercion of simple integer notation to scientific?

Why is it needed for simple 10 digit number is beyond me.

There is nothing about automatic coercion in the dictionary.

BR









___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: OT: Catalina - the end of ad hoc & in-house development?

[Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode]

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 at 09:25, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Would it be feasible for these ad hoc apps to be built using the Community
> Edition?I have an idea...Richard GaskinFourth World Systems
> ___
>

This is a really good point, Peter. Let LC do all the 'hoop-jumping' and
have your family and friends run your small one-off apps as an LC stack
inside the community edition.

Alternatively, boycott Apple if your distaste for them has increased so
much and just leave that issue between them and the larger developers who
don't seem so bothered about it.

>From *my* standpoint, I LIKE (nay, Love!!) the idea that they are making it
harder for hackers to hack our beloved Macs and increase the divide between
them and crappy Windoze and Hemeroid devices. Linux is the other option if
you really hate yourself and want to put yourself and your family/friends
through that level of pain ( I use it because I have to but wouldn't wish
it on others).

I hope you find a solution that works for you and you find some level of
peace.

Pi
___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Using LiveCode & AppleScript to make mouse selection in another Mac application

[Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode]

Keyboard Maestro is indeed the best solution, thank you Bob.

FWIW I'd just managed to find a horrible hack, by enabling the "Mouse Keys" 
facility, and using System Events to send numeric keypad codes to lock the 
mouse down and move it - one pixel at a time


Keyboard Maestro is a rather better solution, and looks excellent.

Thanks for the tip!

Ben

On 11/09/2019 05:28, Rick Harrison via use-livecode wrote:

Hi Bob,

Thanks for telling us about Keyboard Maestro!

I used to use Quikeys for Mac for a long time, but
they haven’t updated it for quite some time and
I was hoping to find a substitute.  It looks like
Keyboard Maestro is like Quikeys on Steroids!

Thanks again,

Rick


On Sep 10, 2019, at 5:52 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
 wrote:

You need a Macro program. I like Keyboard Maestro.

Bob S


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Stop Integer Coercion to Scientific Notation in JSON

[panagiotis merakos via use-livecode]

Hello Brahmanathaswami,

I think this is because of how currently some handlers in lcb work.

See bug https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18159 (and the related
bugs) for more details.

This affects other areas, such as how large numbers are shown in the
variables pane in the debugger.

Kind regards,
Panos
--

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 at 22:59, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> setPref "preferences/global/lastRunDate", (the seconds) # e.g 1568144731
>
> put getPref ("preferences/global/lastRunDate") into tLastRunDate
>
> returns
> {"preferences":
> {"global":
> {"lastRunDate": 1.56814e+09},
> [snip]
>
> # we are using jsonImport
>
>  put jsonImport(tJSON) into tPreferencesA
>
> # handle data and
>
> put jsonExport(tPreferencesA) into tJSON.
>
> # thereafter my simple arithmetic functions like
>
> put (tLastRunDate + 3600) into 1HourLater
>
> # now throw a "left operand" error
>
> How can we prevent the coercion of simple integer notation to scientific?
>
> Why is it needed for simple 10 digit number is beyond me.
>
> There is nothing about automatic coercion in the dictionary.
>
> BR
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: OT: Catalina - the end of ad hoc & in-house development?

[JJS via use-livecode]

The ratio of money asked from devs is also of course: (considered mobile)

Mobile Operating SystemsPercentage Market Share
Mobile Operating System Market Share Worldwide - August 2019
Android 76.23%
iOS 22.17%
KaiOS   0.59%
Unknown 0.26%
Samsung 0.21%
Windows 0.2%

So apple iOs is somewhat increasing this year, in 2018 it was 15% worldwide.

Apple asks 100$ yearly --iOs/ (and macOS)

Google ask 25$ one time fee -- Android

Amazon is FREE ! (for the time being) -- Kindle which is just Android

You can also use other platforms for free like Fdroid

Beats me why Apple charges so much yearly while the gain i think is to 
lower that cost as they earn money from your sales anyway.


Is there an alternative platform for iOs/macOs ?


Op 11-9-2019 om 07:57 schreef Peter Reid via use-livecode:

I've been reading the responses to my original posting with interest. My 
thoughts are as follows:

1. Matthias Rebbe's tutorial and helper stack seem to be excellent and appear 
to be the best way of complying with Apple's requirements, for now. Let's hope 
that Matthias can maintain this as Apple move the goalposts over time! If 
Matthias is unable to sustain these aids I'd hope that the LC mothership would 
adopt them.

2. A lot of the apps I develop are used by immediate friends and family (and a 
tiny circle of customers). They are private developments for use in closed 
communities. Apple have no right to be involved in these and the extended 
development cycle caused by their involvement is just unnecessary pain.

3. If Apple's measures really did provide bullet-proof protection the pain 
could be justified given the gain. However we know that this protection process 
is continuous and it becomes more and more onerous over time whilst still 
providing partial protection for a limited time.

4. If the Apple measures were a simple switchable setting I could switch them 
off whilst I check the user experience for a new user. Then I could switch the 
features back on to see the fully Apple-ised experience. As it is now, using 
the current Catalina beta on my development Mac, I see no blocking or warnings. 
So I've no way of testing the user experience on my development Mac. I have to 
find another Mac to act as my newbie user. Even then if such a Mac has been a 
previous newbie, how do you neutralise it to relive the newbie experience?

5. The $100 charge each year is inexcusable. Basically Apple are saying "We'll make 
any app development more tedious unless you pay up $100 every year.". Even the 
development of the simplest app, to be used as a temporary tool by a couple of friends 
will be blighted by warnings,  etc. if you don't pay $100 per year and jump through the 
hoops! Apple are deliberately making life more difficult and charging us $100 a year for 
the privilege!

6. I wonder how much developer time world-wide is wasted jumping through 
Apple's hoops, especially those developers without the benefit of LC and 
Matthias' tools?

7. If a new-to-LC developer wants to do the usual "Hello World" trivial 1st app 
(making an executable standalone app), they have to understand code-signing, notarising 
and stapling, DMG/ZIP creation and be signed/paid-up Apple developers.

Thanks to Matthias, you're a life/sanity saver, but I still find the prospects 
as an app developer rather depressing!

Peter
--
Peter Reid
Loughborough, UK


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: OT: Catalina - the end of ad hoc & in-house development?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Would it be feasible for these ad hoc apps to be built using the Community 
Edition?I have an idea...Richard GaskinFourth World Systems
___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode