Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
On Mar 27, 2012, at 2:11 PM, Judy Perry wrote: And, yupp, iPads are the shiny new toys... that will suck budgetary funds out of nurses and teacher's aids and lunches for nothing (remember when having laptops in the classroom was the new shiny toy that accomplished what exactly??? and before that having a desktop computer in the classroom?). I've seen very good work done with first graders, high school kids, and autistic kids in our district. The iPad is a fantastic tool with great potential if you know what to do with it. My wife teaches 2nd grade and whenever she brings the iPads in, the students love them. A good teacher can translate that enthusiasm into learning. A bad teacher will let the kids play on the technology and grade papers. Too often technology gets blamed for bad teaching. I agree that LiveCode presents a fantastic opportunity for students and I've never heard of a classroom actually using it. I taught 5th grade a lng time ago, and I had my kids programming in HyperCard. A few of those kids are now working in computer science. That makes me feel pretty awesome. Course they were using a Desktop Computer in my classroom, which you just bashed. :) Richard MacLemale ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Hahahaha! Well, in my own defense, it WAS fake, therefore it can't be, well, you know ;-) On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Scott Morrow wrote: Judy, Do you think it is alright to mention even fake cheese? : ) ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Apple just seeded about $800,000 worth of iPads to my one state university campus alone; most instructors privately concede that they just gave them to their kids to play with. The problem isn't with the hardware; it's usually the software and curricular integration end (or largely lack thereof) where it ends up being a monumental waste of money... Here's another funny anecdote: the instructional designers of one of these new wing-ding websites (and the teachers adopting its usage) thought it would be a grand idea to expect a bunch of 10-year olds to correctly copy a 16 digit alpha-numeric code to get into the website onto a piece of paper and be able to read it and correctly enter it at home. REALLY??? I have adults who can't login with a login that consists of firstInitialLastName... Oh, and another website with a bunch of drill and kills, at the end, had a logout button, so my 10 year old son logged out. Lost all his work because he wasn't prompted to save before logging out. Why would you assume a 10 year old would know to do that and not catch his error? Mind you, this is NOT a ghetto school O_o FWIW, I'm considering volunteering to do an after-school club for 6th grade next year showing them how to make goofy games in LC if I can get the school to agree to it. Judy On Wed, 28 Mar 2012, Richard MacLemale wrote: I've seen very good work done with first graders, high school kids, and autistic kids in our district. The iPad is a fantastic tool with great potential if you know what to do with it. My wife teaches 2nd grade and whenever she brings the iPads in, the students love them. A good teacher can translate that enthusiasm into learning. A bad teacher will let the kids play on the technology and grade papers. Too often technology gets blamed for bad teaching. I agree that LiveCode presents a fantastic opportunity for students and I've never heard of a classroom actually using it. I taught 5th grade a lng time ago, and I had my kids programming in HyperCard. A few of those kids are now working in computer science. That makes me feel pretty awesome. Course they were using a Desktop Computer in my classroom, which you just bashed. :) ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
What do you think of Khan academy? My nephew is in the Glendale Unified S.D. and they are making use of it. Mike On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Judy Perry jper...@ecs.fullerton.eduwrote: Hahahaha! Well, in my own defense, it WAS fake, therefore it can't be, well, you know ;-) On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Scott Morrow wrote: Judy, Do you think it is alright to mention even fake cheese? : ) __**_ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/**mailman/listinfo/use-livecodehttp://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Hi all, I have read the messages in this thread and please, correct me if I understand wrong: 1) Too many students and teachers are too inexperienced (not dumb) to use the available computer educational tools in their institution. 2) Most of the digital educational applications aim to teach using only the lower (or lowest) skills available to all participants. Surely, I am interpreting all this information in the wrong way because my conclusion is that education (as described here) is effectively dumbing down all the participants (teachers and students alike). How many of you are aware that you could run Livecode (including all externals and Quicktime) from a Portable device as a USB pendrive or Secure Digital Card or even from media as a Rewritable CD or DVD? No plugin or installation. Just click and run: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Running-LiveCode-and-Quicktime-as-virtual-applications-td4411011.html#a4430008 In this computer lab: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2733273854751.2150939.1344437396type=3 the IT manager used Metacard Free Starter Kit to create exams that students run from a CD. He opened the exam (a stack), take out the CD and repeat the procedure in each machine. In this way, the exams only runs in RAM and the students could not copy or save to the computer. It works fine for him for many years... Al -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Two-More-Resolutions-On-The-Way-tp4495780p4513669.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Hi Alejandro, I've been in computer labs where computers wouldn't have an (accessible) CD-rom drive or USB port. Computers in offices may not allow limited users to start an exe that's not installed in the programmes folder on the network. -- Best regards, Mark Schonewille Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer KvK: 50277553 Get the extIco2Png external for LiveCode here http://qery.us/1w6 On 28 mrt 2012, at 22:55, Alejandro Tejada wrote: Hi all, I have read the messages in this thread and please, correct me if I understand wrong: 1) Too many students and teachers are too inexperienced (not dumb) to use the available computer educational tools in their institution. 2) Most of the digital educational applications aim to teach using only the lower (or lowest) skills available to all participants. Surely, I am interpreting all this information in the wrong way because my conclusion is that education (as described here) is effectively dumbing down all the participants (teachers and students alike). How many of you are aware that you could run Livecode (including all externals and Quicktime) from a Portable device as a USB pendrive or Secure Digital Card or even from media as a Rewritable CD or DVD? No plugin or installation. Just click and run: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Running-LiveCode-and-Quicktime-as-virtual-applications-td4411011.html#a4430008 In this computer lab: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2733273854751.2150939.1344437396type=3 the IT manager used Metacard Free Starter Kit to create exams that students run from a CD. He opened the exam (a stack), take out the CD and repeat the procedure in each machine. In this way, the exams only runs in RAM and the students could not copy or save to the computer. It works fine for him for many years... Al ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Mobile App Development Challenge for STEM education [was Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5]
DOD Launches Mobile App Development Challenge: http://www.defense.gov/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=15142 This is in line with recent discussions, because there is no money to encourage development. Recognition is the only reward. The focus is tools for STEM education in grades 9-12. Roger Roger B. Marks ro...@consensii.com Consensii LLC http://consensii.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Hi Alejandro, I think the discussion of whether education brings everyone down to the lowest common denominator is a different topic! I guess my original point, perhaps not well enough explained, was that, according to the study in my local paper here in California, using iPads to replace text books costs about 4 times more than using the hard copy text books. Personally, I can't find any justification for California schools spending that extra money when there's hardly any evidence that using iPads improves the quality of eduction at all, never mind 4-fold. I don't know enough about it to judge whether the problem is hardware, software, good vs bad teachers, lack of teacher training , or any other cause. But I'm not a teacher and I tend to view these things more simplistically than perhaps I should. Pete On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Alejandro Tejada capellan2...@gmail.comwrote: Hi all, I have read the messages in this thread and please, correct me if I understand wrong: 1) Too many students and teachers are too inexperienced (not dumb) to use the available computer educational tools in their institution. 2) Most of the digital educational applications aim to teach using only the lower (or lowest) skills available to all participants. Surely, I am interpreting all this information in the wrong way because my conclusion is that education (as described here) is effectively dumbing down all the participants (teachers and students alike). How many of you are aware that you could run Livecode (including all externals and Quicktime) from a Portable device as a USB pendrive or Secure Digital Card or even from media as a Rewritable CD or DVD? No plugin or installation. Just click and run: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Running-LiveCode-and-Quicktime-as-virtual-applications-td4411011.html#a4430008 In this computer lab: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2733273854751.2150939.1344437396type=3 the IT manager used Metacard Free Starter Kit to create exams that students run from a CD. He opened the exam (a stack), take out the CD and repeat the procedure in each machine. In this way, the exams only runs in RAM and the students could not copy or save to the computer. It works fine for him for many years... Al -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Two-More-Resolutions-On-The-Way-tp4495780p4513669.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- Pete Molly's Revenge http://www.mollysrevenge.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
I have noticed in talking to people about funding education that there is an almost irresistible tendency to presume that if you spend more money doing something, the results are bound to improve, even if only a little bit. This is of course, absurd. Some of the greatest minds we know in the last 2 centuries were raised and educated in what we would consider today in California to be completely unacceptable conditions. I was educated in the third richest county in the nation, and I am little more than an idiot. ;-) Bob On Mar 28, 2012, at 3:56 PM, Pete wrote: Hi Alejandro, I think the discussion of whether education brings everyone down to the lowest common denominator is a different topic! I guess my original point, perhaps not well enough explained, was that, according to the study in my local paper here in California, using iPads to replace text books costs about 4 times more than using the hard copy text books. Personally, I can't find any justification for California schools spending that extra money when there's hardly any evidence that using iPads improves the quality of eduction at all, never mind 4-fold. I don't know enough about it to judge whether the problem is hardware, software, good vs bad teachers, lack of teacher training , or any other cause. But I'm not a teacher and I tend to view these things more simplistically than perhaps I should. Pete On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Alejandro Tejada capellan2...@gmail.comwrote: Hi all, I have read the messages in this thread and please, correct me if I understand wrong: 1) Too many students and teachers are too inexperienced (not dumb) to use the available computer educational tools in their institution. 2) Most of the digital educational applications aim to teach using only the lower (or lowest) skills available to all participants. Surely, I am interpreting all this information in the wrong way because my conclusion is that education (as described here) is effectively dumbing down all the participants (teachers and students alike). How many of you are aware that you could run Livecode (including all externals and Quicktime) from a Portable device as a USB pendrive or Secure Digital Card or even from media as a Rewritable CD or DVD? No plugin or installation. Just click and run: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Running-LiveCode-and-Quicktime-as-virtual-applications-td4411011.html#a4430008 In this computer lab: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2733273854751.2150939.1344437396type=3 the IT manager used Metacard Free Starter Kit to create exams that students run from a CD. He opened the exam (a stack), take out the CD and repeat the procedure in each machine. In this way, the exams only runs in RAM and the students could not copy or save to the computer. It works fine for him for many years... Al -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Two-More-Resolutions-On-The-Way-tp4495780p4513669.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- Pete Molly's Revenge http://www.mollysrevenge.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Pete wrote: I guess my original point, perhaps not well enough explained, was that, according to the study in my local paper here in California, using iPads to replace text books costs about 4 times more than using the hard copy text books. Personally, I can't find any justification for California schools spending that extra money when there's hardly any evidence that using iPads improves the quality of eduction at all, never mind 4-fold. Pete My first thought on the matter of TECHstBOOKS (haha, I just made that up) in class is, Why must it be an iPad when there are already other affordable, and capable reading devices?. There are $150 to $200 capacitive multi-touch Android tablets which aren't limited to just running the OS ROM that shipped with it. With a portion of the education budget, the wonderful developers who create CyanogenMod ROMs (for free) for every popular tablet known to man could create an education-centric ROM with proper security in place. This would turn it back into an educational tool without the distraction of games on the app store. I know alot of people just want iPads to be used everywhere because they are so cool. I'd rather see them use moderately priced equipment that still offers an effective learning environment. I think the best thing about digital textbooks is how little they weigh. This could kill the book-bag industry! ;-) ~Roger ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Hi Mark, Mark Schonewille-3 wrote I've been in computer labs where computers wouldn't have an (accessible) CD-rom drive or USB port. Computers in offices may not allow limited users to start an exe that's not installed in the programmes folder on the network. Well, maybe (just maybe) the safest computers are not connected to the internet and neither are accesible physically by anyone. :-D I have noticed that, in this country, many computer laboratories have software similar to Deep Freeze that effectively erase all unauthorized changes in the operating system: http://alternativeto.net/software/deep-freeze/? Maybe this explain why IT managers are more receptive in these recennt days to allow running portable applications from USB, SD Cards and Optical Media. You could read the sign in the wall: Turn off the computer when you have finished... I wrote in this mail list some time ago: To attract teachers and students Livecode needs... 1) An interface similar to Office programs, with similar functions and usability. 2) scripting should be disclosed gradually to new users. Jackeline have wrote about the convenience of offering many prebuilt (and droppable) scripts for simple tasks. Actually, teachers and students could do a lot using just a few elements of Livecode: For Navigation: Go Next/Back/ to Card [number][id] For display: Show/Hide with visual effect ... Other commands and functions: Put/Get/Set... 3) Ideally, RunRev should convince those that have the power to make decision, to USE Livecode in their district or institutions. After enough evidence of positive results is produced, the platform will gain more traction in education. Remember that every long journey, starts with a single step... Al -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Two-More-Resolutions-On-The-Way-tp4495780p4514388.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
I work at the District level of a large K-12 county public school system (Pasco, in Florida.) My job is to train/support all of the school level tech specialists. I have a different perspective on this, I think. It is pretty rare for one of our schools to buy software for the computer. 90% of our computer use is either word processing/PowerPointless, or web use. We used to buy a lot of software, but most of that has been replaced by free web sites, honestly. Money that used to go toward computer software now goes toward iPad software. The iPad is going to grow very very quickly in ed tech - it is definitely the place to be right now. Here's the reality out in the field, regarding web plugins. If a teacher wanted a web plugin on all the lab computers so they could go to one website and do one thing, some of our techs would do that for them, and some would not. I don't like it, but the techs don't report to us - we can't hire/fire them. But if the state required a plugin for state-level testing, all of our techs would do it. But in general it's probably been a long time since any of our techs actually installed a plugin for web browsers. There are two big trends right now - moving from Flash to HTML5, and moving to the iPad. A web site that required a plugin would also create a situation at home for the students, if the site was available for home use. The student would have to install the plugin, or the parents would. As funny as this may sound, there are people who may not know how. This is one reason why the iPad is so popular - you just USE the thing, you don't have to turn around and install plugins and crap like that. It's one reason they're selling millions of them. Freaking Windows tells you that it's not secure on first boot. People are sick of that crap. There are a lot of people out there, many of whom are responsible for keeping computers running, who don't want to install plugins. Despite all of that, I'm not thrilled that this is apparently going away, because I believe more choices are better than fewer choices. --- Richard MacLemale Music = http://www.richardmac.com Programming = http://www.macandchee.se ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
I sense the frustration Judy, but wonder if it was related somewhat to your children's birthday ;-) Having just had a granddaughter turn 11 and a grandson 9, I too wondered what we had really achieved in online learning since I started with Plato (a DOS system running on a custom Pee Cee) back in the stone age. Compared to the evolution of technology, I suspect not much. You raise valid points though, but what you say is not new and likely the byproduct of the technology evolution. Crappy online learning is rarely due to the tools that are used, just crappy instructional designers egged-on by companies promising perfect eLearning modules with the click of a mouse. One of the biggest culprits around at the moment is Articulate. What a phenomenal marketing concept. Take a crappy tool called PowerPoint that fools the world into thinking it can make everybody into a wonderful professional instructor or presenter, and with a few simple clicks turn your legacy work into eLearning. I wish I'd thought of that !! I shouldn't rant about the tools, sorry, they're not to blame for the idiots that use them. It's the content we need to focus on and especially putting it into a format that is reusable in whatever new gizmo is offered to us. Statements like Teachers are quickly moving away from downloading anything and their IT guys are even worse, sometimes setting up systems which disallow downloading a desktop app. maybe true in some circumstances, but that is likely a temporary thing for a temporary reason. That being the decision makers are not knowledgeable, ill informed, or blinded by marketing. I've so often seen people make radical and very significant (read that as expensive) corporate decisions to use or not use a particular technology or standard, only to change their minds later when they realized it didn't give them what they wanted or needed. LMS's and CMS's are typical of this. There was even a time that IT people tried to stop their customers getting on to the Internet, need I say more I say that we will see a change in current attitudes as I am encouraged by Apple's new education support with iBooks2, iBooks Author, and iTunesU. Just the fact of offering text books at a fraction of their hard copy price will quickly sway teachers into encouraging downloads, not to mention keeping the books current and all of the other goodies. And academia using the tools in iTunesU will put pressure on IT people to deliver an infrastructure that support such. Having said that, will iBooks be the de facto standard for online learning in the future ? Maybe for a while until the next evolution of technology, but I do know for sure whatever content is in an iBook, on a web page, in a Revlet, and even in some PP presentations, will be used in the new tool !! My wish (today !) is to get Rev to fix the LC web engine plus continue to develop LC so that we can develop content once and deliver on whatever platform/technology is the flavour of the day. A very daunting task, but one I have faith in the Rev team and especially the plethora of LC developers around the world to solve. best, Bob... PS, oh yes... I still want to deliver LC content in iBooks !! On Mar 26, 2012, at 11:00 PM, Judy Perry wrote: Sigh. It's unfortunately gotten to the point that every time some new gizmo is added to the suite my first thought is reluctance to even look at it, wondering 'how long will this be supported?' On-Rev? When will that stop being supported? As long as DreamCard? RevMedia? the web plugin? All of the third-party editors and stop-gap work-arounds and layers of complexity added to using Rev, er, LC? Wonky/awkward non-xtalk-like syntax? Commands that have never worked? My kids will be 11 tomorrow. Here's an example of the exciting new world of online learning that they use: snip... Anybody still reading wondering why there's a lot of crap in online learning? How much better this could have been as a revlet? But won't be because nobody is going to commit public funds or even private time to doing the same curricular standards correspondence for a technology that, come rollout time, you come to find out had been abandoned by the company years earlier without telling you. WHY do we keep doing this? Because Edu can't pay for what it wants? This is part of the reason why. Judy On Thu, 22 Mar 2012, Ray Horsley wrote: I'm in the K-12 education field. Teachers are quickly moving away from downloading anything and their IT guys are even worse, sometimes setting up systems which disallow downloading a desktop app. I hadn't looked at building for Web in a while but this is very discouraging to find it's gone. I had hoped it had been cleaned up since I last worked with it, not abandoned. Bob Earp White Rock, British Columbia. ___ use-livecode mailing list
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
I'm not a teacher, nor involved in education in any way so take what I have to say with a pinch of salt. A recent analysis over here in California found that it was around 4 times as expensive for a classroom to use iPads and electronic versions of text books as it was to continue using hard copy text books. The costs were measured over a 6 year period to take account of new editions of the text books and the life span of an iPad and I believe the analysis was done for high school level classes. I'd be prepared to accept the extra cost if it was accompanied by a greater than 4-fold improvement in educational quality but there seems to be precious little evidence that the use of iPads produces any increase in educational quality. This is all related to general education classes, not computer science classes. Of course, you can find studies to prove/disprove just about anything you want these days. For those interested, you might want to read the book Wrong by David H. Freedman. A fascinating account of why an alarmingly high number of studies carried out by experts come to completely wrong conclusions. Pete On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 9:20 AM, Bob Earp rje...@hotmail.com wrote: I say that we will see a change in current attitudes as I am encouraged by Apple's new education support with iBooks2, iBooks Author, and iTunesU. Just the fact of offering text books at a fraction of their hard copy price will quickly sway teachers into encouraging downloads, not to mention keeping the books current and all of the other goodies. And academia using the tools in iTunesU will put pressure on IT people to deliver an infrastructure that support such. -- Pete Molly's Revenge http://www.mollysrevenge.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
RE: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Not to forget we as a generation had blackboards, the alphabet taped to the wall above the blackboard, text books that were used for several years and most importantly teachers that would crack us on the back of the head with a ruler if we turned around and talked disrupting the class. And last but not least...School budgets that did not spend $20,000 per student. The result We invented all this stuff the world uses today. Not too shabby for old school(pun intended). Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdim...@evergreeninfo.net -Original Message- From: use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Pete Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 1:12 PM To: How to use LiveCode Subject: Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5 I'm not a teacher, nor involved in education in any way so take what I have to say with a pinch of salt. A recent analysis over here in California found that it was around 4 times as expensive for a classroom to use iPads and electronic versions of text books as it was to continue using hard copy text books. The costs were measured over a 6 year period to take account of new editions of the text books and the life span of an iPad and I believe the analysis was done for high school level classes. I'd be prepared to accept the extra cost if it was accompanied by a greater than 4-fold improvement in educational quality but there seems to be precious little evidence that the use of iPads produces any increase in educational quality. This is all related to general education classes, not computer science classes. Of course, you can find studies to prove/disprove just about anything you want these days. For those interested, you might want to read the book Wrong by David H. Freedman. A fascinating account of why an alarmingly high number of studies carried out by experts come to completely wrong conclusions. Pete On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 9:20 AM, Bob Earp rje...@hotmail.com wrote: I say that we will see a change in current attitudes as I am encouraged by Apple's new education support with iBooks2, iBooks Author, and iTunesU. Just the fact of offering text books at a fraction of their hard copy price will quickly sway teachers into encouraging downloads, not to mention keeping the books current and all of the other goodies. And academia using the tools in iTunesU will put pressure on IT people to deliver an infrastructure that support such. -- Pete Molly's Revenge http://www.mollysrevenge.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Certainly, it's easy enough to blame poor online learning experiences on lazy or inept instructional designers who all too often are taught to use truly crappy tools, but it doesn't excuse the crappy tools themselves. And why do teachers and instructional designers use crappy tools? Because it's all they know; it's all their colleagues know, it's the only thing they see at educational conferences that is even remotely comprehensible, which means that most of them have never heard of LC and never will. And, even if they did, imagine that poor hapless soul whose degree, after all, is in teaching or instructional design and not CS, on this 10+ year bumpy road EE ticket for Mr. Toad's Wild Ride of LC in education! We're a'going this away... WAIT A MINUTE!! NO WE'RE NOT!! Rev can't do anything about teachers who are not allowed to download and install software (I couldn't even get a state university satellite campus to install GIMP for heaven's sake!) but there other things it could do to make LC a better product for designing online or computer-based instruction. *It could show itself at actual teaching/educational conferences. HyperStudio knows that and does it and teachers have heard of it. *It could improve the out-of-box experience for new users (haven't we been asking that for nearly a decade?). *It could structure its instructional content into graded paths that are intuitive to use for differing types of users instead of just dumping them in the middle of a bazillions lessons on how to do things using keywords that new users aren't likely to know. *It could pick a path and just gradually STICK WITH IT. It's this constant serving about on the educational development road that make the product look so very iffy... (MEDIA! Players! Web Plugin! HTML5? yeah baby! until we drop it!) And, yupp, iPads are the shiny new toys... that will suck budgetary funds out of nurses and teacher's aids and lunches for nothing (remember when having laptops in the classroom was the new shiny toy that accomplished what exactly??? and before that having a desktop computer in the classroom?). Oh, and I'm not kidding about the lunches thing. On cold or rainy days I have the kids eat a school lunch, only for them to tell me that they ate a banana, a cookie and a piece of fake cheese because the school ran out of the hot meals they were supposed to be serving. Yes, RAN OUT. Judy On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Bob Earp wrote: I sense the frustration Judy, but wonder if it was related somewhat to your children's birthday ;-) Having just had a granddaughter turn 11 and a grandson 9, I too wondered what we had really achieved in online learning since I started with Plato (a DOS system running on a custom Pee Cee) back in the stone age. Compared to the evolution of technology, I suspect not much. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
On 03/27/2012 09:10 PM, Ralph DiMola wrote: Not to forget we as a generation had blackboards, the alphabet taped to the wall above the blackboard, text books that were used for several years and most importantly teachers that would crack us on the back of the head with a ruler if we turned around and talked disrupting the class. We had an Irishman who liked to sneak up behind one and jab his pencil in one's neck. Funnily enough he was also a pillar of the church, and would spend all his time during our compulsory Sunday services squinnying around to see if we were adopting suitably pious expressions. Despite the pillock of the church . . . And last but not least...School budgets that did not spend $20,000 per student. The result We invented all this stuff the world uses today. Not too shabby for old school(pun intended). Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdim...@evergreeninfo.net -Original Message- From: use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Pete Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 1:12 PM To: How to use LiveCode Subject: Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5 I'm not a teacher, nor involved in education in any way so take what I have to say with a pinch of salt. A recent analysis over here in California found that it was around 4 times as expensive for a classroom to use iPads and electronic versions of text books as it was to continue using hard copy text books. The costs were measured over a 6 year period to take account of new editions of the text books and the life span of an iPad and I believe the analysis was done for high school level classes. I'd be prepared to accept the extra cost if it was accompanied by a greater than 4-fold improvement in educational quality but there seems to be precious little evidence that the use of iPads produces any increase in educational quality. This is all related to general education classes, not computer science classes. Of course, you can find studies to prove/disprove just about anything you want these days. For those interested, you might want to read the book Wrong by David H. Freedman. A fascinating account of why an alarmingly high number of studies carried out by experts come to completely wrong conclusions. Pete On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 9:20 AM, Bob Earprje...@hotmail.com wrote: I say that we will see a change in current attitudes as I am encouraged by Apple's new education support with iBooks2, iBooks Author, and iTunesU. Just the fact of offering text books at a fraction of their hard copy price will quickly sway teachers into encouraging downloads, not to mention keeping the books current and all of the other goodies. And academia using the tools in iTunesU will put pressure on IT people to deliver an infrastructure that support such. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
On 03/27/2012 09:11 PM, Judy Perry wrote: Certainly, it's easy enough to blame poor online learning experiences on lazy or inept instructional designers who all too often are taught to use truly crappy tools, but it doesn't excuse the crappy tools themselves. And why do teachers and instructional designers use crappy tools? Because it's all they know; it's all their colleagues know, it's the only thing they see at educational conferences that is even remotely comprehensible, which means that most of them have never heard of LC and never will. And, even if they did, imagine that poor hapless soul whose degree, after all, is in teaching or instructional design and not CS, on this 10+ year bumpy road EE ticket for Mr. Toad's Wild Ride of LC in education! We're a'going this away... WAIT A MINUTE!! NO WE'RE NOT!! Rev can't do anything about teachers who are not allowed to download and install software (I couldn't even get a state university satellite campus to install GIMP for heaven's sake!) but there other things it could do to make LC a better product for designing online or computer-based instruction. *It could show itself at actual teaching/educational conferences. HyperStudio knows that and does it and teachers have heard of it. *It could improve the out-of-box experience for new users (haven't we been asking that for nearly a decade?). *It could structure its instructional content into graded paths that are intuitive to use for differing types of users instead of just dumping them in the middle of a bazillions lessons on how to do things using keywords that new users aren't likely to know. *It could pick a path and just gradually STICK WITH IT. It's this constant serving about on the educational development road that make the product look so very iffy... (MEDIA! Players! Web Plugin! HTML5? yeah baby! until we drop it!) And, yupp, iPads are the shiny new toys... that will suck budgetary funds out of nurses and teacher's aids and lunches for nothing (remember when having laptops in the classroom was the new shiny toy that accomplished what exactly??? and before that having a desktop computer in the classroom?). Oh, and I'm not kidding about the lunches thing. On cold or rainy days I have the kids eat a school lunch, only for them to tell me that they ate a banana, a cookie and a piece of fake cheese because the school ran out of the hot meals they were supposed to be serving. Yes, RAN OUT. Ach, Judy; Thee and Me have been saying all the above to RunRev for a longish time; and they have never managed to present a consistent educational front . . . . . . what they probably need (but would be loath to admit) is an educationalist to run their educational side (well, if they had one), run around schools demoing the thing, co-opting teachers, and so on. This June I should like to give some of my kids a quick-n-dirty 3 day course with RR/Livecode. I honestly cannot see much point as there is no RevMedia and/or cut-down free version for those kids to take away at the end of things. Judy On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Bob Earp wrote: I sense the frustration Judy, but wonder if it was related somewhat to your children's birthday ;-) Having just had a granddaughter turn 11 and a grandson 9, I too wondered what we had really achieved in online learning since I started with Plato (a DOS system running on a custom Pee Cee) back in the stone age. Compared to the evolution of technology, I suspect not much. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
On Mar 27, 2012, at 11:11 AM, Judy Perry wrote: snip a cookie and a piece of fake cheese /snip Judy, Do you think it is alright to mention even fake cheese? : ) -Scott Morrow ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
After giving this idea some further thought I wouldn't bet on it either. How would something like import snapshot be exported to HTML5? On Mar 22, 2012, at 3:44 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Ray Horsley wrote: I like the idea of HTML5 export, too. Me too, but although translating layout isn't hard, given the vast differences between LiveCode and its object model and JavaScript/DOM, I wouldn't bet on it. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Hi, RealStudio did it. RunRev can do it too. -- Best regards, Mark Schonewille Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer KvK: 50277553 Download the Installer Maker Plugin 1.7 for LiveCode here http://qery.us/za On 23 mrt 2012, at 11:29, Ray Horsley wrote: After giving this idea some further thought I wouldn't bet on it either. How would something like import snapshot be exported to HTML5? On Mar 22, 2012, at 3:44 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Ray Horsley wrote: I like the idea of HTML5 export, too. Me too, but although translating layout isn't hard, given the vast differences between LiveCode and its object model and JavaScript/DOM, I wouldn't bet on it. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Thanks Richard for these thoughts. I believe I fall into a variant of the camp A which you've mentioned, working with organizations run by really dumb and most of all lazy IT staff. Not all of our clients are like this, but frequently we'll run into IT guys who are simply too lazy too download anything to all the machines in their schools. This is a sales block and my hope was that Rev's browser plugin would get us past that, even though that, too, must be downloaded. I couldn't agree more with the technical case you've made here but who was that shoe salesman in New York who made the famous comment Give the lady what she wants? We've got to make sales and if the client wants software that runs in a browser we can either argue with her or make the sale and move on. Obviously the latter of these is by far preferable. Ray Horsley LinkIt! Software On Mar 22, 2012, at 3:58 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Ray Horsley wrote: I'm in the K-12 education field. Teachers are quickly moving away from downloading anything and their IT guys are even worse, sometimes setting up systems which disallow downloading a desktop app. I hadn't looked at building for Web in a while but this is very discouraging to find it's gone. I had hoped it had been cleaned up since I last worked with it, not abandoned. If it's gone someone should let RunRev know: http://www.runrev.com/products/web/ From what I see the education industry is not the only area moving rapidly toward doing everything in a browser. Healthcare, finance, you name it, everybody spends most of the day in browsers today. Does this mean the majority of us Livecoders are doing nothing more than writing mobile apps? Ironically, a mobile app is very much like the most viable, flexible, and cost-effective alternative to RevWeb: net-savvy standalones. Whether the LiveCode engine is wrapped as a browser plugin or your own standalone, either way it'll need institutional buy-in to get your stacks distributed. Any org that will allow a third-party binary browser plugin should also allow a standalone. Like the browser plugin, a standalone can easily download stacks from a server, even compressed stacks for quick delivery. But unlike a browser you have far more options: Your users can enjoy the flexibility any desktop app has in terms of a UI dedicated for its workflow, along with local file access and other traditional app features, which can be used to provide an offline mode, smart caching, and more. And if needed, a standalone can be more secure than a browser: just turn on the secureMode as the first line in your startup handler, and your app will be prevented from many any changes at all on the local machine. I suspect that most of the laments from not being able to use RevWeb for deployment fall into two camps: a) Devs who've had to work with orgs run by dumb really dumb IT staff who somehow think that a proprietary binary executable that's called a browser plugin is somehow inherently safer than an application b) Devs who haven't really pursued such conversations with their clients seriously, so the issue is largely just theoretical for them. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
But I don't think RealStudio can build for mobile devices like iOS or Android. The two companies seem to be betting on different futures. I wasn't particularly interested in the mobile space myself, but seeing the astronomical growth in that area, I have to think I am wrong and RunRev were right. I recently saw a graph comparing the total sales to date of Macs versus iPhone and iPad. The latter two had within a few years overtaken 20 years of cumulative sales. I am still not a great user of mobile apps, but from what I observe with big brand companies, they mostly want their own device-specific app, rather than just a web app that will run on all devices. Whether HTML technology improves to the point that it can compete with native interfaces is another matter. If that turns out to be the case, then maybe RealStudios direction will prove sound. Bernard On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 9:47 AM, Mark Schonewille m.schonewi...@economy-x-talk.com wrote: RealStudio did it. RunRev can do it too. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Hi Bernard, HTML5 isn't for mobile devices only. HTML5 export would allow you to use LiveCode to create really cool websites that might even replace desktop apps in some cases. HTML5 is also great for creating web apps for mobile devices. Besides that, it is useful that we can use LiveCode to create apps that exist locally on mobile devices and that's an advantage RealStudio doesn't have (yet). Wake up: HTML5 already competes with what you call native interfaces. We have arrived there already and RunRev needs to catch up with its competitors (RealStudio, Adobe, and a few others). -- Best regards, Mark Schonewille Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer KvK: 50277553 Download the Installer Maker Plugin 1.7 for LiveCode here http://qery.us/za On 23 mrt 2012, at 11:57, Bernard Devlin wrote: But I don't think RealStudio can build for mobile devices like iOS or Android. The two companies seem to be betting on different futures. I wasn't particularly interested in the mobile space myself, but seeing the astronomical growth in that area, I have to think I am wrong and RunRev were right. I recently saw a graph comparing the total sales to date of Macs versus iPhone and iPad. The latter two had within a few years overtaken 20 years of cumulative sales. I am still not a great user of mobile apps, but from what I observe with big brand companies, they mostly want their own device-specific app, rather than just a web app that will run on all devices. Whether HTML technology improves to the point that it can compete with native interfaces is another matter. If that turns out to be the case, then maybe RealStudios direction will prove sound. Bernard ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
OK. Thanks for that explanation. It sounds like tomorrow has arrived (although the emphasis is on might replace desktop apps). From your description both RealStudio and RunRev are facing in the wrong direction. But there are many people who have pivoted their careers about to learn Objective-C, a language which only 4 years ago seemed to be about as niche as one could get. One project I was involved in back then migrated to python because it was just too hard to get people who knew anything about Objective-C. Runrev and RealStudio will not be the only ones who might have chosen the wrong path ultimately. I will have to look into HTML5 further :) Bernard On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Mark Schonewille m.schonewi...@economy-x-talk.com wrote: Hi Bernard, HTML5 isn't for mobile devices only. HTML5 export would allow you to use LiveCode to create really cool websites that might even replace desktop apps in some cases. HTML5 is also great for creating web apps for mobile devices. Besides that, it is useful that we can use LiveCode to create apps that exist locally on mobile devices and that's an advantage RealStudio doesn't have (yet). Wake up: HTML5 already competes with what you call native interfaces. We have arrived there already and RunRev needs to catch up with its competitors (RealStudio, Adobe, and a few others). -- Best regards, Mark Schonewille Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer KvK: 50277553 Download the Installer Maker Plugin 1.7 for LiveCode here http://qery.us/za On 23 mrt 2012, at 11:57, Bernard Devlin wrote: But I don't think RealStudio can build for mobile devices like iOS or Android. The two companies seem to be betting on different futures. I wasn't particularly interested in the mobile space myself, but seeing the astronomical growth in that area, I have to think I am wrong and RunRev were right. I recently saw a graph comparing the total sales to date of Macs versus iPhone and iPad. The latter two had within a few years overtaken 20 years of cumulative sales. I am still not a great user of mobile apps, but from what I observe with big brand companies, they mostly want their own device-specific app, rather than just a web app that will run on all devices. Whether HTML technology improves to the point that it can compete with native interfaces is another matter. If that turns out to be the case, then maybe RealStudios direction will prove sound. Bernard ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Hi Bernard, Well, what makes it wrong? The IT world changed quickly. Today HTML5, tomorrow ABCD6. That doesn't mean that everyone who chose HTML5 today is wrong tomorrow. I'm not sure where I'm saying RealStudio made a bad choice? Nor am I saying that RunRev is going the wrong path, but it has to hurry making the next step. Objective-C is just the next stage in the evolution of C-languages. If you started learning C recently, then you probably started with C# or Objective-C and those will still be useful when the next C-generation appears. Your time hasn't been wasted on that. -- Best regards, Mark Schonewille Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer KvK: 50277553 Download the Installer Maker Plugin 1.7 for LiveCode here http://qery.us/za On 23 mrt 2012, at 12:21, Bernard Devlin wrote: OK. Thanks for that explanation. It sounds like tomorrow has arrived (although the emphasis is on might replace desktop apps). From your description both RealStudio and RunRev are facing in the wrong direction. But there are many people who have pivoted their careers about to learn Objective-C, a language which only 4 years ago seemed to be about as niche as one could get. One project I was involved in back then migrated to python because it was just too hard to get people who knew anything about Objective-C. Runrev and RealStudio will not be the only ones who might have chosen the wrong path ultimately. I will have to look into HTML5 further :) Bernard ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
On 23/03/2012 11:21, Bernard Devlin wrote: OK. Thanks for that explanation. It sounds like tomorrow has arrived (although the emphasis is on might replace desktop apps). From your description both RealStudio and RunRev are facing in the wrong direction. But there are many people who have pivoted their careers about to learn Objective-C, a language which only 4 years ago seemed to be about as niche as one could get. One project I was involved in back then migrated to python because it was just too hard to get people who knew anything about Objective-C. Runrev and RealStudio will not be the only ones who might have chosen the wrong path ultimately. I will have to look into HTML5 further :) Web apps (HTML/CSS/jQuery) are not a panacea. I speak as one who has written a large web app (desktop publishing, aimed at HR departments: docrobot.co.uk). When they work, they can provide outstanding qualities (no installation needed, quick to deploy, low maintenance, quick to update, etc). However, they are brittle, dependant upon fluctuating browser technology, firewall technology, always being online, rely on device/O.S. features being expressed in a browser, etc. There are cases where web apps make sense...and if you find a niche like that more power to you, but I cannot believe that native apps are going away any time soon. The iOS situation makes that abundantly clear. Web apps are significantly esier to write than native apps for many tasks. You can deploy them without Apple having a word to say about them. Thanks to Apple's WebKit efforts they look and work remarkably well...and yet... Apple says there are over 500,000 native apps (http://www.apple.com/iphone/built-in-apps/app-store.html), with over 10 billion downloads. How many folks are clamoring for web apps? -Ken ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Hi Ken, First of all, the definition of native isn't entirely clear to me. There are over 500,000 apps in the iTunes store, no matter whether they are called native. Second, a significant share of those 500,000 are HTML5 apps! It is difficult to say how many, but since there are approximately 3 apps on Phonegap Build and Build contains only a small part of all apps built while Phonegap takes account of only a part of all HTML5 apps, I'd say that more than 10% of the apps in the iTunes store are HTML5 apps. This is a very careful estimate. HTML5 isn't a panacea but definitely important and a great solution for me. -- Best regards, Mark Schonewille Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer KvK: 50277553 Download the Installer Maker Plugin 1.7 for LiveCode here http://qery.us/za On 23 mrt 2012, at 12:46, Ken Corey wrote: Web apps (HTML/CSS/jQuery) are not a panacea. I speak as one who has written a large web app (desktop publishing, aimed at HR departments: docrobot.co.uk). When they work, they can provide outstanding qualities (no installation needed, quick to deploy, low maintenance, quick to update, etc). However, they are brittle, dependant upon fluctuating browser technology, firewall technology, always being online, rely on device/O.S. features being expressed in a browser, etc. There are cases where web apps make sense...and if you find a niche like that more power to you, but I cannot believe that native apps are going away any time soon. The iOS situation makes that abundantly clear. Web apps are significantly esier to write than native apps for many tasks. You can deploy them without Apple having a word to say about them. Thanks to Apple's WebKit efforts they look and work remarkably well...and yet... Apple says there are over 500,000 native apps (http://www.apple.com/iphone/built-in-apps/app-store.html), with over 10 billion downloads. How many folks are clamoring for web apps? -Ken ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Le 23 mars 2012 à 11:57, Bernard Devlin a écrit : I wasn't particularly interested in the mobile space myself, but seeing the astronomical growth in that area, I have to think I am wrong and RunRev were right. RunRev was right and i went wrong ! ;-) -- Pierre Sahores mobile : 06 03 95 77 70 www.spimsco.net : la première solution saas open source et commerciale de développement sémantique préprogrammé ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Hi Mark, you might not have said that such decisions are wrong, but with finite resources, decisions must be made. Some decisions will turn out to be the wrong decisions. About 3 years ago RealBasic and Livecode looked like they were going in the same direction; they've now branched off in different directions. It may prove disastrous for either or both companies. If it does, then they will have made a mistake in evaluating where things are going and what technology/market will be best for their clients. We won't know that until some point in the future. But Runrev sure realised that mobile applications were far more important than I did. When Apple was first promoting applications for mobile devices, they promoted web apps as the right route. Either that was a delaying tactic, or they decided they'd made the wrong prediction. Because native apps became the most common form of app (despite that requiring re-tooling by many developers). As I haven't paid much attention to javascript since the whole Ajaxy thing was coined, I had a look at what RealStudio have to say about HTML5. http://www.realsoftwareblog.com/2011/09/rough-edges-of-html5.html http://www.infoworld.com/print/169665 I've seen companies in the arena of IDE-that-compiles-web-app struggle to survive (Morfik comes to mind). Considering what they were offering a few years ago, it doesn't seem to have been the runaway success that I expected it to be. Another instance where my expectations of the market seemed to be at variance with reality. I can understand you'd like Livecode to output a web app in addition to the other kinds of deployment target. So would I. With limited options for the encryption of local data, I view mobile phone apps as being thin-client apps. I've no idea what is required to make governments recognise the need for the encryption of data on devices. But that is one of the things that those 2 links from my visit to the RealStudio website highlight as a problem with HTML5 apps. It seems we take data security far less seriously now than 20 years ago. I've read reports of government and corporate employees being mandated NOT to take their mobile phones to foreign countries, because of the risks of the contents/devices being compromised. That's a 19th century solution to a 21st century problem. Some of the other risks (such as hacking of a local webapp) do not seem to me to be such a serious problem. Richard Gaskin argued persuasively IMO against a runrev browser plug-in. I really don't care if the plug-in dies. I don't see it offers any benefit other than users who live in a browser not having to start another application in order to do something. That seems to be a Bernard On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Mark Schonewille m.schonewi...@economy-x-talk.com wrote: Hi Bernard, Well, what makes it wrong? The IT world changed quickly. Today HTML5, tomorrow ABCD6. That doesn't mean that everyone who chose HTML5 today is wrong tomorrow. I'm not sure where I'm saying RealStudio made a bad choice? Nor am I saying that RunRev is going the wrong path, but it has to hurry making the next step. Objective-C is just the next stage in the evolution of C-languages. If you started learning C recently, then you probably started with C# or Objective-C and those will still be useful when the next C-generation appears. Your time hasn't been wasted on that. -- Best regards, Mark Schonewille ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Hi Bernard, When two companies specialise in two different activities, it doesn't mean that one of them must be wrong. Also, the world changes and so does the path we follow. Perhaps Apple was right both times and I would be surprised if RealStudio doesn't come up with a locally running version for mobile devices eventually. -- Best regards, Mark Schonewille Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer KvK: 50277553 Download the Installer Maker Plugin 1.7 for LiveCode here http://qery.us/za On 23 mrt 2012, at 14:46, Bernard Devlin wrote: Hi Mark, you might not have said that such decisions are wrong, but with finite resources, decisions must be made. Some decisions will turn out to be the wrong decisions. About 3 years ago RealBasic and Livecode looked like they were going in the same direction; they've now branched off in different directions. It may prove disastrous for either or both companies. If it does, then they will have made a mistake in evaluating where things are going and what technology/market will be best for their clients. We won't know that until some point in the future. But Runrev sure realised that mobile applications were far more important than I did. When Apple was first promoting applications for mobile devices, they promoted web apps as the right route. Either that was a delaying tactic, or they decided they'd made the wrong prediction. Because native apps became the most common form of app (despite that requiring re-tooling by many developers). As I haven't paid much attention to javascript since the whole Ajaxy thing was coined, I had a look at what RealStudio have to say about HTML5. http://www.realsoftwareblog.com/2011/09/rough-edges-of-html5.html http://www.infoworld.com/print/169665 I've seen companies in the arena of IDE-that-compiles-web-app struggle to survive (Morfik comes to mind). Considering what they were offering a few years ago, it doesn't seem to have been the runaway success that I expected it to be. Another instance where my expectations of the market seemed to be at variance with reality. I can understand you'd like Livecode to output a web app in addition to the other kinds of deployment target. So would I. With limited options for the encryption of local data, I view mobile phone apps as being thin-client apps. I've no idea what is required to make governments recognise the need for the encryption of data on devices. But that is one of the things that those 2 links from my visit to the RealStudio website highlight as a problem with HTML5 apps. It seems we take data security far less seriously now than 20 years ago. I've read reports of government and corporate employees being mandated NOT to take their mobile phones to foreign countries, because of the risks of the contents/devices being compromised. That's a 19th century solution to a 21st century problem. Some of the other risks (such as hacking of a local webapp) do not seem to me to be such a serious problem. Richard Gaskin argued persuasively IMO against a runrev browser plug-in. I really don't care if the plug-in dies. I don't see it offers any benefit other than users who live in a browser not having to start another application in order to do something. That seems to be a Bernard ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Ray Horsley wrote: Thanks Richard for these thoughts. I believe I fall into a variant of the camp A which you've mentioned, working with organizations run by really dumb and most of all lazy IT staff. Not all of our clients are like this, but frequently we'll run into IT guys who are simply too lazy too download anything to all the machines in their schools. I've seen that too. And my brother, who's an IT admin at a hospital and he sees that all the time, his peers reusing requests from the stakeholders they're supposed to be servicing, using a wide range of irrational claims to justify inaction. It's (in)famous throughout the IT world, but stakeholders don't have the technical background to argue back, so IT rules the roost however they want. And it's even worse than you may imagine: I've worked with one very large institution (who shall remain nameless here) who is still standardized on IE6 to this day. Yes, even after Microsoft themselves has been spending millions trying to educate their customers to move on to any more recent version and get away from that bug-riddled security nightmare (see http://www.ie6countdown.com/ as one example of MS's attempts), this org's IT director refuses to budge, exposing all of their users to thousands of known exploits every day. I see stories like that all the time: doctors, educators, and members of many other orgs held back from getting the tools they need to improve organizational performance while being exposed to security risks along the way by IT staff who either don't understand their job or have other reasons to hinder the org from fulfilling its mission. A contractor like you or me is in a tough position in those environments: with a rational discussion of benefits and risk exposures it's possible to close a sale and deliver exactly what the client wants, but doing so may cost an IT person's job along the way. Such IT staff will fight it tooth and nail, and unless the org has a good CTO and that person is involved in the discussion, middle managers won't have the technical background to understand that their IT staffers are being irrational. IMNSHO, that's a sale worth losing: working for dysfunctional orgs just makes a long workday longer, and ultimately any project with them will become mired in other unnecessary difficulties. There are too many smart orgs to work for to waste time like that. The trend for orgs to add the position of CTO was originally merely fashionable, but in recent years as tech become both more diverse and more pervasive that role can be invaluable as a mediator between stakeholders and tech staff. When a CTO takes a hands-on role in vendor negotiations, I find many of these sorts of roadblocks disappear. But unfortunately, some orgs don't understand why they have a CTO position, and don't fully utilize that resource. I couldn't agree more with the technical case you've made here but who was that shoe salesman in New York who made the famous comment Give the lady what she wants? We've got to make sales and if the client wants software that runs in a browser we can either argue with her or make the sale and move on. Obviously the latter of these is by far preferable. The core question here is: What exactly does the client want? In many cases, when a vendor says We have a web deployment solution the customer hears native HTML and JavaScript, and they're not at all imagining needing to download and maintain a browser plugin. When the practical implications of a plugin are known to the client, many of these discussions stop right there. It's not really what they had in mind, and doesn't really solve the problem they were hoping to solve though the simplicity and ubiquity of native browser implementations. Some of those who hear that it's a plugin and still say they want it will become frustrated down the road when deployment actually happens. No blame there; they're just not technical people and have probably never used any plugin that wasn't pre-installed, so the implications of requiring that every machine in their org be set up to be user-modifiable to allow compiled executables like a browser plugin are unknown to them. So this leaves us with the relatively slender subset of potential users who fully understand what using a plugin means and still want it. For that small subset, a conversation about the benefits of other forms of executables can often get buy-in - provided they have a good hands-on CTO (see above). ;) -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Mark Schonewille wrote: On 23 mrt 2012, at 11:29, Ray Horsley wrote: After giving this idea some further thought I wouldn't bet on it either. How would something like import snapshot be exported to HTML5? RealStudio did it. RunRev can do it too. Did they? I think it depends on what the definition of it is. Like LiveCode, RealBASIC can be used to make a nearly infinite variety of apps. From reading their forums, browsing their examples, and reviewing their docs, it seems that their web solution only supports a relatively narrow subset of all possible types of applications that can be made with the tool. For what it does, RealBASIC's Web Edition seems like a very useful thing. But it assumes that you want to make a fairly traditional client-server database app comprised of list and form views. Thus far I've seen no RB Web Edition examples of things like custom drawing apps, interactive multimedia CBTs, or even the tutorial they provide for building a word processor. If I've missed examples of these sorts of apps being automatically converted to web-ready HTML/JS with their Web Edition, please provide the URLs; I wouldn't at all mind being wrong on that, as it would represent a very powerful technology shift that would completely revolutionize web development, well worth knowing about. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
I am an IT guy, and for me the pendulum has swung the other way. The upper management think they know best what to deploy and how to use it, but from where I sit they are just about as dumb as a post, and no argument I can make will move them. As an example, I pushed for years to get an electronic PO system and get off paper PO's because you could not search for something you purchased in the past at all. The gal who filed everything did it by date, so you couldn't even look it up by vendor. You had to know exactly what date you purchased it, and then flip through all the PO's in that bundle of dates. Eventually, when someone was put in the CTO role, he said, What we need here is an electronic PO system! Everyone applauded and got behind him. sigh But he let everyone who wanted the system to run like the old paper system (?) dictate how things would be done. As a result, what is being purchased is put in a tiny little unsearchable comment field, and the line item (only one is used per PO) is used for things like the GL code and miscellaneous info that the accounting girls wanted. As a result, the PO system is completely worthless in terms of finding a past purchase by part number or description. Maybe the trick is to find an IT guy who really knows his stuff, and then let him rule his little bit of the roost? Fat chance here though. :-) Bob On Mar 23, 2012, at 7:55 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Ray Horsley wrote: Thanks Richard for these thoughts. I believe I fall into a variant of the camp A which you've mentioned, working with organizations run by really dumb and most of all lazy IT staff. Not all of our clients are like this, but frequently we'll run into IT guys who are simply too lazy too download anything to all the machines in their schools. I've seen that too. And my brother, who's an IT admin at a hospital and he sees that all the time, his peers reusing requests from the stakeholders they're supposed to be servicing, using a wide range of irrational claims to justify inaction. It's (in)famous throughout the IT world, but stakeholders don't have the technical background to argue back, so IT rules the roost however they want. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Hi Richard, I believe RealStudio WE does everything we can reasonably expect from an HTML5 app. So, yes, I'd say they did it. It is funny that you consider HTML5 traditional already, but I do tend to agree. -- Best regards, Mark Schonewille Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer KvK: 50277553 Download the Installer Maker Plugin 1.7 for LiveCode here http://qery.us/za On 23 mrt 2012, at 16:32, Richard Gaskin wrote: Mark Schonewille wrote: On 23 mrt 2012, at 11:29, Ray Horsley wrote: After giving this idea some further thought I wouldn't bet on it either. How would something like import snapshot be exported to HTML5? RealStudio did it. RunRev can do it too. Did they? I think it depends on what the definition of it is. Like LiveCode, RealBASIC can be used to make a nearly infinite variety of apps. From reading their forums, browsing their examples, and reviewing their docs, it seems that their web solution only supports a relatively narrow subset of all possible types of applications that can be made with the tool. For what it does, RealBASIC's Web Edition seems like a very useful thing. But it assumes that you want to make a fairly traditional client-server database app comprised of list and form views. Thus far I've seen no RB Web Edition examples of things like custom drawing apps, interactive multimedia CBTs, or even the tutorial they provide for building a word processor. If I've missed examples of these sorts of apps being automatically converted to web-ready HTML/JS with their Web Edition, please provide the URLs; I wouldn't at all mind being wrong on that, as it would represent a very powerful technology shift that would completely revolutionize web development, well worth knowing about. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Mark Schonewille wrote: I believe RealStudio WE does everything we can reasonably expect from an HTML5 app. Qualified with reasonably expect in terms of automated translation, I would agree. Here's a nifty HTML5 app that's the sort of thing one can also make in RB for the desktop (and similar in some ways to your nice flowchart app made with LC), but I don't see anything in their WE which would automate such translation for the web: http://pipes.yahoo.com/pipes/ Here's one that's reflective of the sort of multimedia techniques used in CBTs - easy to do in RB, but not translatable in WE: http://vlog.it/ Here's a painting program, similar to some I've seen made with LC and RB but again I've seen nothing on the BR WE which would suggest that can be automatically translated: http://mugtug.com/sketchpad/ So I agree that it's not reasonable to expect an automated translation solution to offer much more than simple list and form views. But I don't think that's going to suffice for the sort of stuff LiveCoders want from a one-click web solution. It is funny that you consider HTML5 traditional already, but I do tend to agree. What I wrote was: ...RealBASIC's Web Edition seems like a very useful thing. But it assumes that you want to make a fairly traditional client-server database app comprised of list and form views. I didn't use the word traditional to describe any specific version of HTML, nor even HTML itself. I was referring to the useful but fairly narrowly focused range of UIs the RB WE can produce. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Bob Sneidar wrote: Maybe the trick is to find an IT guy who really knows his stuff, and then let him rule his little bit of the roost? Ideally that would be the CTO. But I also recognize that not enough companies understand why they added CTO to their org chart. :) -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
LiveCode Player for 5.5
I've always downloaded the plugin at: http://revweb.runrev.com/ This gives me version (R9) which does not run standalones built for Web in Livecode 5.5. Is there another site to get the LiveCode player which will run standalones built in 5.5? Thanks, Ray Horsley LinkIt! Software ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Ray, no. -- Best regards, Mark Schonewille Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer KvK: 50277553 Download the Installer Maker Plugin 1.7 for LiveCode here http://qery.us/za On 22 mrt 2012, at 17:18, Ray Horsley wrote: I've always downloaded the plugin at: http://revweb.runrev.com/ This gives me version (R9) which does not run standalones built for Web in Livecode 5.5. Is there another site to get the LiveCode player which will run standalones built in 5.5? Thanks, Ray Horsley LinkIt! Software ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Hi all, did you read the copyright notice on the download page: Copyright RunRev Ltd 2009 All rights reserved. That's the year when the plug-in was updated the last time! Well... Am 22.03.2012 um 16:27 schrieb Mark Schonewille: Ray, no. -- Best regards, Mark Schonewille On 22 mrt 2012, at 17:18, Ray Horsley wrote: I've always downloaded the plugin at: http://revweb.runrev.com/ This gives me version (R9) which does not run standalones built for Web in Livecode 5.5. Is there another site to get the LiveCode player which will run standalones built in 5.5? Thanks, Ray Horsley LinkIt! Software Best Klaus -- Klaus Major http://www.major-k.de kl...@major.on-rev.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
So building standalones for Web has been discontinued for quite some time now in LiveCode? On Mar 22, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Klaus on-rev wrote: Hi all, did you read the copyright notice on the download page: Copyright RunRev Ltd 2009 All rights reserved. That's the year when the plug-in was updated the last time! Well... Am 22.03.2012 um 16:27 schrieb Mark Schonewille: Ray, no. -- Best regards, Mark Schonewille On 22 mrt 2012, at 17:18, Ray Horsley wrote: I've always downloaded the plugin at: http://revweb.runrev.com/ This gives me version (R9) which does not run standalones built for Web in Livecode 5.5. Is there another site to get the LiveCode player which will run standalones built in 5.5? Thanks, Ray Horsley LinkIt! Software Best Klaus -- Klaus Major http://www.major-k.de kl...@major.on-rev.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Ray, We know as much as you do. Also, I would consider it a waste of money if RunRev were to invest in the plugin again. I'd rather expect them to invest in HTML5 export. -- Best regards, Mark Schonewille Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer KvK: 50277553 Download the Installer Maker Plugin 1.7 for LiveCode here http://qery.us/za On 22 mrt 2012, at 17:44, Ray Horsley wrote: So building standalones for Web has been discontinued for quite some time now in LiveCode? ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
I like the idea of HTML5 export, too. But regarding building standalones for Web, why do you think that option is still in the Standalone Application Settings window? On Mar 22, 2012, at 10:53 AM, Mark Schonewille wrote: Ray, We know as much as you do. Also, I would consider it a waste of money if RunRev were to invest in the plugin again. I'd rather expect them to invest in HTML5 export. -- Best regards, Mark Schonewille Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer KvK: 50277553 Download the Installer Maker Plugin 1.7 for LiveCode here http://qery.us/za On 22 mrt 2012, at 17:44, Ray Horsley wrote: So building standalones for Web has been discontinued for quite some time now in LiveCode? ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Ray, I think it is just in case someone wants to use that feature and is willing to pay for it. -- Best regards, Mark Schonewille Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer KvK: 50277553 Download the Installer Maker Plugin 1.7 for LiveCode here http://qery.us/za On 22 mrt 2012, at 18:34, Ray Horsley wrote: I like the idea of HTML5 export, too. But regarding building standalones for Web, why do you think that option is still in the Standalone Application Settings window? ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
There was some discussion about this in the past, and a lot of people seemed to think that making people install a plugin to run a web app was very undesirable these days. I think Runrev at that point put it on the back burner. I mean the stove in the shed on the north 40. Bob On Mar 22, 2012, at 9:48 AM, Keith Clarke wrote: I think if the option was pulled, there would be a hue and cry from the developer community, whereas leaving it to whither on the vine has meant that most have just given up asking for an update. Given RunRev's 'no more roadmaps' policy, any web or enterprise developers who were waiting have probably been forced to move to alternative tools. It's a shame - so much potential but nothing to plan against. Best, Keith.. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
I'm in the K-12 education field. Teachers are quickly moving away from downloading anything and their IT guys are even worse, sometimes setting up systems which disallow downloading a desktop app. I hadn't looked at building for Web in a while but this is very discouraging to find it's gone. I had hoped it had been cleaned up since I last worked with it, not abandoned. From what I see the education industry is not the only area moving rapidly toward doing everything in a browser. Healthcare, finance, you name it, everybody spends most of the day in browsers today. Does this mean the majority of us Livecoders are doing nothing more than writing mobile apps? Ray Horsley LinkIt! Software On Mar 22, 2012, at 12:05 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote: There was some discussion about this in the past, and a lot of people seemed to think that making people install a plugin to run a web app was very undesirable these days. I think Runrev at that point put it on the back burner. I mean the stove in the shed on the north 40. Bob On Mar 22, 2012, at 9:48 AM, Keith Clarke wrote: I think if the option was pulled, there would be a hue and cry from the developer community, whereas leaving it to whither on the vine has meant that most have just given up asking for an update. Given RunRev's 'no more roadmaps' policy, any web or enterprise developers who were waiting have probably been forced to move to alternative tools. It's a shame - so much potential but nothing to plan against. Best, Keith.. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Ray Horsley wrote: I like the idea of HTML5 export, too. Me too, but although translating layout isn't hard, given the vast differences between LiveCode and its object model and JavaScript/DOM, I wouldn't bet on it. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Player for 5.5
Ray Horsley wrote: I'm in the K-12 education field. Teachers are quickly moving away from downloading anything and their IT guys are even worse, sometimes setting up systems which disallow downloading a desktop app. I hadn't looked at building for Web in a while but this is very discouraging to find it's gone. I had hoped it had been cleaned up since I last worked with it, not abandoned. If it's gone someone should let RunRev know: http://www.runrev.com/products/web/ From what I see the education industry is not the only area moving rapidly toward doing everything in a browser. Healthcare, finance, you name it, everybody spends most of the day in browsers today. Does this mean the majority of us Livecoders are doing nothing more than writing mobile apps? Ironically, a mobile app is very much like the most viable, flexible, and cost-effective alternative to RevWeb: net-savvy standalones. Whether the LiveCode engine is wrapped as a browser plugin or your own standalone, either way it'll need institutional buy-in to get your stacks distributed. Any org that will allow a third-party binary browser plugin should also allow a standalone. Like the browser plugin, a standalone can easily download stacks from a server, even compressed stacks for quick delivery. But unlike a browser you have far more options: Your users can enjoy the flexibility any desktop app has in terms of a UI dedicated for its workflow, along with local file access and other traditional app features, which can be used to provide an offline mode, smart caching, and more. And if needed, a standalone can be more secure than a browser: just turn on the secureMode as the first line in your startup handler, and your app will be prevented from many any changes at all on the local machine. I suspect that most of the laments from not being able to use RevWeb for deployment fall into two camps: a) Devs who've had to work with orgs run by dumb really dumb IT staff who somehow think that a proprietary binary executable that's called a browser plugin is somehow inherently safer than an application b) Devs who haven't really pursued such conversations with their clients seriously, so the issue is largely just theoretical for them. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
