Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[doc hawk via use-livecode]

heriberto harrumphed

>3) Today's macOS is descended from NeXT (which Apple acquired and 
> transitioned macOS to in 1999)

And they got a free Jobs to go with it!

Or did they buy a Jobs, and get a free OS.  I’ve never quite been clear . . 

>  6) The Mach microkernel was replaced with the Appel XNU hybrid kernel

Ooh, I missed that.

> 1) It seems we can run a Livecode headless binary on BSD using the Linux 
> compatibility layer. Is that so?


I’m pretty sure that I ran 5.5 both headless and X under FreeBSD.

Come to think of it, I believe there are multiple threads in the archives, 
probably mid 2012, from when I was asking questions about it.  In there would 
be some discussions as to how far it gets in startup before bouncing off of X 
when not using headless.
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Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode]

Richard, Brian thank you very much,

I read about this Livecode execution method a time ago and found it amazing.

Livecode is an amazing product!

So, these are my thoughts:

1) It seems we can run a Livecode headless binary on BSD using the Linux 
compatibility layer. Is that so?
2) How difficult could it be porting Livecode Server to ARM? I tried to 
do this last year using the source code but I got this error: Unknown 
platform.
I tried to remove from the source code the target platform check but it 
didn't work.


Best,
Hery




On 10/29/20 1:57 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

Brian Milby wrote:

> On Oct 28, 2020, at 11:57 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> But Heriberto's up for an adventure, one enhancement that would lower
>> RAM use and speed things up a bit is this one:
>>
>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14115
>>
>> Heriberto, if that's interesting to you let me know. I have a
>> workaround in place now...
>
> What is the workaround that you ended up using?  I looked at the code
> once but it quickly went over my head.  I couldn’t see where the fonts
> were pulled in, at least not where it could be cleanly intercepted.

I appreciate the time you and Mark Wieder spent looking into that - 
thanks again.


I just ran another test this morning to verify that the setup works 
reasonably well, and after I get some client work out of the way I'll 
post some notes on it.


In the meantime, another option just occurred to me which may be 
simpler and more complete:



What happens when standalones are run with -ui, and can that flag be 
added to LC Server?


If -ui not only bypasses font init but all other graphics init (like 
the Skia subsystem, buffering, etc.) it should be a far better solution.


And since -ui is already supported for standalones, my hope is it 
would be simpler to make it available for LC Server than any new flag 
which would require a new implementation throughout.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.com http://www.FourthWorld.com

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​Chief Technology Officer (CTO)
​Director de informática
Directeur informatique

*NetDreams S.C.*
http://www.networkdreams.net 

 Address / Dirección / Adresse:​

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Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode]

Not very sure, but months ago I read this (but he seems to talk about 
BSD user utils more than the Kernel).


https://www.quora.com/Is-macOS-considered-to-be-a-BSD-UNIX

Yes, Apple’s macOS can be considered to be a BSD UNIX.

   1) Apple’s macOS is an officially certified UNIX, that takes care of 
the UNIX part of the question.


   2) NeXT was created by using BSD OS, the Mach microkernel and then 
modifying those with new modules created by NeXT.


   3) Today's macOS is descended from NeXT (which Apple acquired and 
transitioned macOS to in 1999)


   4) Apple replaced the NeXT user interface with the world famous 
Macintosh user interface


   5) Apple, slowly over the years removed the NeXT modules and 
replaced them with pure BSD modules and some Apple custom modules


   6) The Mach microkernel was replaced with the Appel XNU hybrid kernel

   7) As of macOS Catalina 10.15, there is no longer any NeXT modules 
in macOS, macOS is now mostly BSD with a few custom Apple modules and of 
course the Macintosh user interface, which has been polished over the years


   8) So yes, macOS is BSD and at the same time it still is Apple Macintosh

   9) If you go to the command line you will see that it is almost 
completely BSD with a few Apple commands for security, file system, etc.


   10) If you are using it normally, then what you see is a pure 
Macintosh user experience.




On 10/29/20 1:32 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

Are we sure about this?? I thought Apple had moved completely away from BSD a 
long while back.

Bob S



On Oct 28, 2020, at 12:53 , Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Thanks Andre,

I realized that BSD kernels are not the same as MacOS kernels.
As you say: MacOS has a hybrid kernel based on XNU and some parts of BSD.


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Best regards/ Saludos cordiales/ Cordialement

Heriberto Torrado
​Chief Technology Officer (CTO)
​Director de informática
Directeur informatique

*NetDreams S.C.*
http://www.networkdreams.net 

 Address / Dirección / Adresse:​

*USA: *538 East 85th Street, #1C Manhattan NY, NY 10028 USA
*Europe / Europa: *Paseo de la Castellana 135 10ª Planta Madrid 28024 
Spain / España


*Tel - Phone - Fax:*

Phone / Tel USA : +1 917 287 5644 / +1 646 596 8787
Phone / Tel Spain :+34 627 556 500 / + 34 91 063 74 48

   Please consider the environment before printing this email / Por 
favor considera tu responsabilidad medioambiental antes de imprimir esta 
página.


Confidentiality: The information contained in this message as well as 
the attached file(s) is confidential/privileged and is only intended for 
the person(s) to whom it is addressed. If the reader of this message is 
not the intended recipient or the employee or agent responsible for 
delivering the message to the intended recipient, or you have received 
this comunication in error, please be aware that any dissemination, 
distribution or duplication is strictly prohibited, and can be illegal, 
and please notify us immediately and return the original message to us 
at the address above. Thank you.


Confidencialidad: La información contenida en este mensaje y/o 
archivo(s) adjunto(s) es confidencial/privilegiada y está destinada a 
ser leída sólo por la(s) persona(s) a la(s) que va dirigida. Si usted 
lee este mensaje y no es el destinatario señalado, el empleado o el 
agente responsable de entregar el mensaje al destinatario, o ha recibido 
esta comunicación por error, le informamos que está totalmente 
prohibida, y puede ser ilegal, cualquier divulgación, distribución o 
reproducción de esta comunicación, y le rogamos que nos lo notifique 
inmediatamente y nos devuelva el mensaje original a la dirección arriba 
mencionada. Gracias.


Viruses: Although we have taken steps to insure that this e-mail and 
attachments are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with good 
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free.


Virus: Aunque hemos tomado las medidas para asegurarnos que este correo 
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recomendamos que a efectos de mantener buenas prácticas de seguridad, el 
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libres de virus.



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Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode]

Hi Richard,


Although I love UNIX, I think this is a much better point.
Looking at the feedback comments I have realized that porting Livecode 
to BSD may not be worth it.


However, I think it is critical for our community to be able to run 
Livecode scripting on IOT devices.


IOT and Edge computing is the future (and the present).

I dare to say that Livecode is a much simpler language for IOT than 
Python (although this is a personal opinion).


If you learn Livecode you kill five birds with one stone:
Desktop, Mobile, Scripting, Web and Server development.

Have you tried developing desktop or mobile applications with Python? It 
is a tremendous pain.


We need a much wider community to be able to extend Livecode to all areas.

Can you imagine Livecode as a popular option on most the important job 
posting sites?


I think the first step would be to have a working version of Livecode 
server for Raspberry.


Livecode currently compiles for many ARM versions.

How difficult could it be to adapt Livecode Server to these versions?


On 10/28/20 11:06 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

Heriberto Torrado wrote:

> So, here is my idea: What about to create non official versions of
> Livecode server (for scripting purposes) for other platforms not yet
> supported?
> I think it could be good for RunRev: They won't have to work
> supporting those versions and Livecode language will spread to other
> fields.
>
> What do you guys think? Do you think we'll have enough manpower into
> our community to do that?

Raspberry Pi, w/ Raspbian or other Debian-based Linux (Linux ARM).

Home servers, school labs, IoT, and so much more - all currently lost 
to us by not having a build for that engine.


The last build was an experiment done by a team member no longer with 
the company, for LC v7.1.


If you could update the Server edition to v9.6 we could at least have 
a modern version to work with for faceless applications, and any 
remaining work for the GUI side would likely be relatively small 
(certainly smaller than one person trying to knock it all off by 
themselves).





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Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Brian Milby wrote:

> On Oct 28, 2020, at 11:57 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> But Heriberto's up for an adventure, one enhancement that would lower
>> RAM use and speed things up a bit is this one:
>>
>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14115
>>
>> Heriberto, if that's interesting to you let me know. I have a
>> workaround in place now...
>
> What is the workaround that you ended up using?  I looked at the code
> once but it quickly went over my head.  I couldn’t see where the fonts
> were pulled in, at least not where it could be cleanly intercepted.

I appreciate the time you and Mark Wieder spent looking into that - 
thanks again.


I just ran another test this morning to verify that the setup works 
reasonably well, and after I get some client work out of the way I'll 
post some notes on it.


In the meantime, another option just occurred to me which may be simpler 
and more complete:



What happens when standalones are run with -ui, and can that flag be 
added to LC Server?


If -ui not only bypasses font init but all other graphics init (like the 
Skia subsystem, buffering, etc.) it should be a far better solution.


And since -ui is already supported for standalones, my hope is it would 
be simpler to make it available for LC Server than any new flag which 
would require a new implementation throughout.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Are we sure about this?? I thought Apple had moved completely away from BSD a 
long while back. 

Bob S


> On Oct 28, 2020, at 12:53 , Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Andre,
> 
> I realized that BSD kernels are not the same as MacOS kernels.
> As you say: MacOS has a hybrid kernel based on XNU and some parts of BSD.


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RE: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Ralph DiMola via use-livecode]

The session lockup issue also needs to be addressed. This has been raised in 
the past but I found the recipe. This bug occurs when requests come too close 
together. My spidy sense says that this is a file locking race condition. 
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22560


Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of 
Brian Milby via use-livecode
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2020 9:26 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Brian Milby; Richard Gaskin
Subject: Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

What is the workaround that you ended up using?  I looked at the code once but 
it quickly went over my head.  I couldn’t see where the fonts were pulled in, 
at least not where it could be cleanly intercepted.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 28, 2020, at 11:57 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> There may be many useful requests in the bug DB worth considering to improve 
> the performance, robustness, and feature set of LC Server.
> 
> But Heriberto's up for an adventure, one enhancement that would lower RAM use 
> and speed things up a bit is this one:
> 
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14115
> 
> Heriberto, if that's interesting to you let me know. I have a workaround in 
> place now, and I'll bet there's a way to move that inside the engine for a 
> solution that's much simpler than when we discussed it here on this list 
> earlier this year.
> 
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web 
> 
> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

What is the workaround that you ended up using?  I looked at the code once but 
it quickly went over my head.  I couldn’t see where the fonts were pulled in, 
at least not where it could be cleanly intercepted.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 28, 2020, at 11:57 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> There may be many useful requests in the bug DB worth considering to improve 
> the performance, robustness, and feature set of LC Server.
> 
> But Heriberto's up for an adventure, one enhancement that would lower RAM use 
> and speed things up a bit is this one:
> 
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14115
> 
> Heriberto, if that's interesting to you let me know. I have a workaround in 
> place now, and I'll bet there's a way to move that inside the engine for a 
> solution that's much simpler than when we discussed it here on this list 
> earlier this year.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> 
> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Andre Garzia via use-livecode]

Hey Friends,

I'm enjoying this thread a lot. I'll not be the person to tell someone not
to port LC to some new ISA or OS, I think it would be great if LC would run
in BSD. Personally, I don't have the time or even the skillset to help
this, but I'd love to benefit from it. Incidentally this is the exact
mindset that prevents good things from happening because many people want
to benefit from something without actually working towards it but I really
can't work on this. The work that LC HQ has done throughout the years
modernizing the codebase and keeping it all working in multiple systems is
amazing and a feat worth of awards but, don't let the convenience of having
that funky download page with all the versions fool you, building LC is not
that easy especially if you're targeting a new ISA/OS combination.

The ideal way in my humble but educated opinion is for LC GPL to be added
to the ports collection of FreeBSD, this is described in the FreeBSD
porters handbook:

https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/porters-handbook/index.html

This is probably not a weekend project and not for the faint of heart. It
will require a lot of work to do this properly, but it can be done.

Before dismissing someone volunteering their own time to work on a FreeBSD
port based on that system's market share remember that Macs used to be a
very small percentage of the market. Under the same rules, LC shouldn't
have focused at all on having it working on Macs, clearly Windows was 90%
of the global marketshare. FreeBSD has a ton of stuff going for it and the
wave of people migrating from Linux towards a BSD experience has been
growing steadily since the encroaching of systemd and other "decisions"
have moved Linux away from a more traditional UNIX experience. Lots of the
shiny things people are doing with Linux have been a part of day to day
life of FreeBSD users much earlier and is usually provided in a more
cohesive experience, such as Jails vs Docker.

I advise people who haven't seen modern FreeBSD workflows to check their
foundation youtube channel, there is a lot of nice in-depth videos there
that might help people see it through new eyes. That being said, I don't
think that LC HQ should dedicate their time to do it, they need to focus on
what produces money regardless of how I or other users here feel about
different operating systems.




On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 at 03:57, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Pi Digital wrote:
>
>  > Here’s my take (for what it’s worth). Although Unix is used in 71.6%
>  > (source: w3techs.com) of all known websites as of today and Linux only
>  > 29.0%, at least we have ‘a’ distro that works on some server.
>
> That struck me as odd, so I took a moment to see how they derived that
> impressive Unix number (thanks for including the source).
>
> It turns out they're lumping Unix and Linux together under "Unix" - when
> you click "Unix" you get this breakdown:
>
> Subcategories of Unix
>
> This diagram shows the percentages of websites using various
> subcategories of Unix.
>
> How to read the diagram:
> Linux is used by 40.5% of all the websites who use Unix
>
> Websites who use Unix
> Linux   40.5%
> BSD 0.5%
> Darwin less than 0.1%
> HP-UX  less than 0.1%
> Solarisless than 0.1%
> Minix  less than 0.1%
> Unknown59.0%
>
> I'd wager most of the 59% using "Unknown" are also Linux.
>
> That would line up well enough with what we see at the Wikipedia page
> for server OS market share:
>
>Linux   FreeBSDUnknown  Windows
> W3Cook July 201596.4% 1.7%   0%  1.9%
> W3TechsFeb  201535.9%   0.95%   30.9%   32.3%
> Security Space  Feb 2014   <79.3% N/A   >20.7%
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Public_servers_on_the_Internet
>
> While Windows has a strong showing in the enterprise for internal
> servers, public-facing servers are by far a Linux story.
>
> This is not only true for most shared and VPS hosting, but public clouds
> as well, with Google, Amazon, and Apple all using Linux to drive their
> infrastructure, and even though Azure is a Win/Linux mix there's a
> surprising amount of Linux going on there (with Ubuntu being the leading
> choice inside containers).
>
> I bring this up not just because I'm a Linux fanboy (though I am and
> make no apologies; I was even worse when I used to be a Mac fanboy ),
> but just as a long-winded way to help support your main thesis:
>
> Aside from new architectures like Linux ARM (Raspberry Pi), the most
> commonly-used platforms where LiveCode Serer would be used are well
> supported.
>
> So, as you wrote:
>
>  > Seriously, if anyone was considering doing this, please..., please,
>  > reconsider and put your efforts and talent into fixing what we already
>  > have. It would be far more 

Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Pi Digital wrote:

> Here’s my take (for what it’s worth). Although Unix is used in 71.6%
> (source: w3techs.com) of all known websites as of today and Linux only
> 29.0%, at least we have ‘a’ distro that works on some server.

That struck me as odd, so I took a moment to see how they derived that 
impressive Unix number (thanks for including the source).


It turns out they're lumping Unix and Linux together under "Unix" - when 
you click "Unix" you get this breakdown:


   Subcategories of Unix

   This diagram shows the percentages of websites using various
   subcategories of Unix.

   How to read the diagram:
   Linux is used by 40.5% of all the websites who use Unix

   Websites who use Unix
   Linux   40.5%
   BSD  0.5%
   Darwin less than 0.1%
   HP-UX  less than 0.1%
   Solarisless than 0.1%
   Minix  less than 0.1%
   Unknown59.0%

I'd wager most of the 59% using "Unknown" are also Linux.

That would line up well enough with what we see at the Wikipedia page 
for server OS market share:


  Linux   FreeBSDUnknown  Windows
   W3Cook July 201596.4% 1.7%   0%  1.9%
   W3TechsFeb  201535.9%   0.95%   30.9%   32.3%
   Security Space  Feb 2014   <79.3% N/A   >20.7%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Public_servers_on_the_Internet

While Windows has a strong showing in the enterprise for internal 
servers, public-facing servers are by far a Linux story.


This is not only true for most shared and VPS hosting, but public clouds 
as well, with Google, Amazon, and Apple all using Linux to drive their 
infrastructure, and even though Azure is a Win/Linux mix there's a 
surprising amount of Linux going on there (with Ubuntu being the leading 
choice inside containers).


I bring this up not just because I'm a Linux fanboy (though I am and 
make no apologies; I was even worse when I used to be a Mac fanboy ), 
but just as a long-winded way to help support your main thesis:


Aside from new architectures like Linux ARM (Raspberry Pi), the most 
commonly-used platforms where LiveCode Serer would be used are well 
supported.


So, as you wrote:

> Seriously, if anyone was considering doing this, please..., please,
> reconsider and put your efforts and talent into fixing what we already
> have. It would be far more beneficial to a much greater community
> population.

There may be many useful requests in the bug DB worth considering to 
improve the performance, robustness, and feature set of LC Server.


But Heriberto's up for an adventure, one enhancement that would lower 
RAM use and speed things up a bit is this one:


https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14115

Heriberto, if that's interesting to you let me know. I have a workaround 
in place now, and I'll bet there's a way to move that inside the engine 
for a solution that's much simpler than when we discussed it here on 
this list earlier this year.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Heriberto Torrado wrote:

> So, here is my idea: What about to create non official versions of
> Livecode server (for scripting purposes) for other platforms not yet
> supported?
> I think it could be good for RunRev: They won't have to work
> supporting those versions and Livecode language will spread to other
> fields.
>
> What do you guys think? Do you think we'll have enough manpower into
> our community to do that?

Raspberry Pi, w/ Raspbian or other Debian-based Linux (Linux ARM).

Home servers, school labs, IoT, and so much more - all currently lost to 
us by not having a build for that engine.


The last build was an experiment done by a team member no longer with 
the company, for LC v7.1.


If you could update the Server edition to v9.6 we could at least have a 
modern version to work with for faceless applications, and any remaining 
work for the GUI side would likely be relatively small (certainly 
smaller than one person trying to knock it all off by themselves).


--
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 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Pi Digital via use-livecode]

It’s a great idea. How do you propose it be handled? Assuming this is a build 
based on the current system it will likely have to be compiled in Linux as the 
obvious choice. Do we have anyone with the appropriate skills in coding C to 
look into the various server platforms to be compiled for? Someone with enough 
time and resources, knowledge and energy? 

If so, why aren’t those people helpful enough to fix what we already have? 

[Get’s off soap box (for the time being)]  ;) 

Here’s my take (for what it’s worth). Although Unix is used in 71.6% (source: 
w3techs.com) of all known websites as of today and Linux only 29.0%, at least 
we have ‘a’ distro that works on some server. Like you, I’m currently using a 
CentOS web server with LC happily. But the clincher has to be that currently 
FreeBSD has no support for Dell,HP or IBM servers. The only advantages to 
having FreeBSD is a teeny bit better security, tiny performance improvement and 
have it in a fully fledged OS instead of just a kernel. Is it worth anyone’s 
time and effort building for those ‘advantages’?

Seriously, if anyone was considering doing this, please..., please, reconsider 
and put your efforts and talent into fixing what we already have. It would be 
far more beneficial to a much greater community population. 

All the very best. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital


> On 28 Oct 2020, at 19:53, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> So, here is my idea: What about to create non official versions of Livecode 
> server (for scripting purposes) for other platforms not yet supported?
> I think it could be good for RunRev: They won't have to work supporting those 
> versions and Livecode language will spread to other fields.
> 
> What do you guys think? Do you think we'll have enough manpower into our 
> community to do that?
> 
> Best,
> Hery
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Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode]

Thanks Andre,

I realized that BSD kernels are not the same as MacOS kernels.
As you say: MacOS has a hybrid kernel based on XNU and some parts of BSD.

I'm only interested in running the Livecode server version and not the IDE.
So, I think that compiling could be the best solution.

I have been coding with Livecode for several years almost every week.
So my mind is very "Livecodized".
In fact, when I have to change to PHP, JS, Python or Golang, I feel very 
unproductive. Everything takes much more time than doing it with Livecode.


I would like not only to run Livecode server on BSD, but also on 
different hardware platforms.
I think on the IOT field Livecode script could have a good opportunity 
to be a killer language.


In the past, I tried to compile Livecode server for this devices, but I 
got several errors: 
https://www.friendlyarm.com/index.php?route=product/product=69_id=279


So, here is my idea: What about to create non official versions of 
Livecode server (for scripting purposes) for other platforms not yet 
supported?
I think it could be good for RunRev: They won't have to work supporting 
those versions and Livecode language will spread to other fields.


What do you guys think? Do you think we'll have enough manpower into our 
community to do that?


Best,
Hery



On 10/28/20 11:24 AM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote:

On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 21:31, Paul McClernan via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:


OS X, Windows 95 through Windows 10, Raspberry Pi and "several variations
of Unix (I think is just means Linux)".

I'm thinking about tinkering with a FreeBSD server and LiveCode server,
but I didn't see a "UNIX" version, so I suppose that I have to compile

it.

Have any of you installed LiveCode server on FreeBSD (or Solaris)?


As others mentioned, this is dated information. However, last I checked
macOS (or rather the "Darwin" layer of macOS) is POSIX compliant and built
from BSD UNIX 4.4 & bits of FreeBSD. So, I would not be all that surprised
if a LiveCode for macOS GUI-less/CLI executable could run on some other
BSD.



That is not really how this works.

macOS is built on top of old NEXTSTEP and it is POSIX compliant but
that doesn't mean that LC from mac can work on BSD. MacOS uses the XNU
kernel, its executable file format and shared library file format are
unique and not related at all to anything that a BSD can run.

FreeBSD can run Linux binaries though as can be seen in the FreeBSD
Handbook:

https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/linuxemu.html

This is done through emulation and I can't vouch for the performance or
correctness of it but, in theory you can install the necessary components
and libraries and then be able to run the Linux version of LC in FreeBSD.

Another option is trying to build from source. To be effective, this would
require knowledge of the FreeBSD ports and packages system besides knowing
enough of LC source and C++ to patch anything needed. I bet they'd love
such a contribution if you have the chops to do it.




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Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Andre Garzia via use-livecode]

On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 21:31, Paul McClernan via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> >
> > OS X, Windows 95 through Windows 10, Raspberry Pi and "several variations
> > of Unix (I think is just means Linux)".
> >
> > I'm thinking about tinkering with a FreeBSD server and LiveCode server,
> > but I didn't see a "UNIX" version, so I suppose that I have to compile
> it.
> > Have any of you installed LiveCode server on FreeBSD (or Solaris)?
> >
>
> As others mentioned, this is dated information. However, last I checked
> macOS (or rather the "Darwin" layer of macOS) is POSIX compliant and built
> from BSD UNIX 4.4 & bits of FreeBSD. So, I would not be all that surprised
> if a LiveCode for macOS GUI-less/CLI executable could run on some other
> BSD.
>
>
That is not really how this works.

macOS is built on top of old NEXTSTEP and it is POSIX compliant but
that doesn't mean that LC from mac can work on BSD. MacOS uses the XNU
kernel, its executable file format and shared library file format are
unique and not related at all to anything that a BSD can run.

FreeBSD can run Linux binaries though as can be seen in the FreeBSD
Handbook:

https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/linuxemu.html

This is done through emulation and I can't vouch for the performance or
correctness of it but, in theory you can install the necessary components
and libraries and then be able to run the Linux version of LC in FreeBSD.

Another option is trying to build from source. To be effective, this would
require knowledge of the FreeBSD ports and packages system besides knowing
enough of LC source and C++ to patch anything needed. I bet they'd love
such a contribution if you have the chops to do it.


-- 
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Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia
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Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Paul McClernan via use-livecode]

>
> OS X, Windows 95 through Windows 10, Raspberry Pi and "several variations
> of Unix (I think is just means Linux)".
>
> I'm thinking about tinkering with a FreeBSD server and LiveCode server,
> but I didn't see a "UNIX" version, so I suppose that I have to compile it.
> Have any of you installed LiveCode server on FreeBSD (or Solaris)?
>

As others mentioned, this is dated information. However, last I checked
macOS (or rather the "Darwin" layer of macOS) is POSIX compliant and built
from BSD UNIX 4.4 & bits of FreeBSD. So, I would not be all that surprised
if a LiveCode for macOS GUI-less/CLI executable could run on some other BSD.

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 12:08 PM Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I have a question.   It's not a very important question and I don’t want
> to bother you y 'all, so if you think is off-topic, feel free to not to
> respond,  I'm just curious.
>
> I've been working with Livecode for almost five years, and I never saw a
> LiveCode server  "UNIX" version.
>
> The LiveCode Wikipedia’s article says this: LiveCode runs on iOS, Android,
> OS X, Windows 95 through Windows 10, Raspberry Pi and "several variations
> of Unix (I think is just means Linux)".
>
> I'm thinking about tinkering with a FreeBSD server and LiveCode server,
> but I didn't see a "UNIX" version, so I suppose that I have to compile it.
> Have any of you installed LiveCode server on FreeBSD (or Solaris)?
>
> I'm just thinking, but maybe there's a small niche working  with LiveCode
> server on BSD or Solaris (still many companies use them and not many people
> develop software for this platforms nowadays).
> We have a few companies in Spain (my country) still using Solaris or BSD
> servers (mainly in the Graphic arts business).
>
> PS, I currently work with LiveCode Server on Centos, but it could be
> interesting  to test it in FreeBSD.
>
> Best regards/ Saludos cordiales/ Cordialement
>
> Heriberto Torrado
> ​Chief Technology Officer (CTO)
> ​Director de informática
> Directeur informatique
>
> https://networkdreams.net
>
>
>
>
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Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode]

Hi Richmond,

I think it's because since the early 2000's, Linux is the UNIX-like 
standard platform in the world, and maybe Runrev realized that it is not 
worth it to put more effort into other UNIX platforms rather than Linux


It is a pity because now, Linux runs on 90% of the internet servers.
I love Linux, but monopolies are not good (even "free" monopolies).

Solaris, AIX and HP-UX are almost dead and BSDs and illumos derivations 
are decaying day by day.


There are still some companies using them in Spain, but they lack 
technicians, so they are stepping on the gas to get rid of them.
There are still some grey beards that refuse to toss them away, and 
maybe there are some opportunities working with them.


Still here in the US there are many governmental apartments using them.

Sadly, UNIX is part of a world that no longer exists.

Nice an updated reading: 
https://www.unixsheikh.com/articles/freebsd-is-an-amazing-operating-system.html


Best,
Hery

On 10/17/20 2:44 PM, Richmond via use-livecode wrote:
"But rightly LC saw where the future was headed with mobile computing 
and they obviously had to make sacrifices along the way (e.g. FreeBSD, 
etc)"


That sounds super if it were true, but I don't think it is as RunRev 
(as they then were) dropped support for SPARC, UNIX and so

forth a long time before they began work on mobile platforms.

Richmond.

On 16.10.20 10:55, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote:

  Hi Heriberto

Back in the day (20 years ago) the engine/IDE ran on FreeBSD and various
proprietary unixes.

The Linux server version has been seen to work on FreeBSD back in 2011
(after installing Linux compatibility layer).

http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Yay-Victory-RevServer-runs-on-FreeBSD-with-Linux-Compat-installed-td3445454.html 



You _might_ be able to get that to work now.  I doubt it would be 
supported
by Livecode.  What amazes me nowadays is just how much more complex 
things
are than they were 20 years ago - looking at the compatibility matrix 
for
Livecode dependencies on OS version, XCode version, device version -- 
all

just to produce apps that run on iOS:

https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/faq/faq/

If someone had said 20 years ago that a small company in Scotland could
manage that kind of complexity people would have laughed in 
disbelief.  But
rightly LC saw where the future was headed with mobile computing and 
they
obviously had to make sacrifices along the way (e.g. FreeBSD, etc) to 
be in

a situation to take on this level of complexity.

HTH Bernard

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 5:08 PM Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:


Dear all,

I have a question.   It's not a very important question and I don’t 
want

to bother you y 'all, so if you think is off-topic, feel free to not to
respond,  I'm just curious.

I've been working with Livecode for almost five years, and I never 
saw a

LiveCode server  "UNIX" version.

The LiveCode Wikipedia’s article says this: LiveCode runs on iOS, 
Android,
OS X, Windows 95 through Windows 10, Raspberry Pi and "several 
variations

of Unix (I think is just means Linux)".

I'm thinking about tinkering with a FreeBSD server and LiveCode server,
but I didn't see a "UNIX" version, so I suppose that I have to 
compile it.

Have any of you installed LiveCode server on FreeBSD (or Solaris)?

I'm just thinking, but maybe there's a small niche working with 
LiveCode
server on BSD or Solaris (still many companies use them and not many 
people

develop software for this platforms nowadays).
We have a few companies in Spain (my country) still using Solaris or 
BSD

servers (mainly in the Graphic arts business).

PS, I currently work with LiveCode Server on Centos, but it could be
interesting  to test it in FreeBSD.

Best regards/ Saludos cordiales/ Cordialement

Heriberto Torrado
​Chief Technology Officer (CTO)
​Director de informática
Directeur informatique

https://networkdreams.net




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--

Best regards/ Saludos cordiales/ Cordialement

Heriberto Torrado
​Chief Technology Officer (CTO)
​Director de informática
Directeur informatique

*NetDreams S.C.*
http://www.networkdreams.net 

 Address / Dirección / Adresse:​

*USA: 

Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode]

Barnand, Thanks for your kindly response

"What amazes me nowadays is just how much more complex things
are than they were 20 years ago"

Yes,that's the main problem today.

Regardless of the programming language, nowadays we have to deal with desktops, 
mobiles, servers, etc. and that is crazy.

In the web design world, they "fixed" it using CSS + HTML + JS + SQL + "insert your 
favorite server language here", but that is also a mess too.

I miss the old days: Just Desktop & servers.:-(

As you said: I don't know how runrev (Livecode) can deal with that complexity 
level.
Five different platforms and 32 & 64 bits.

I'll try the Linux compatibility layer. I think the latest Solaris versions 
have it too.

Best,
Hery//


On 10/16/20 3:55 AM, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote:

  Hi Heriberto

Back in the day (20 years ago) the engine/IDE ran on FreeBSD and various
proprietary unixes.

The Linux server version has been seen to work on FreeBSD back in 2011
(after installing Linux compatibility layer).

http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Yay-Victory-RevServer-runs-on-FreeBSD-with-Linux-Compat-installed-td3445454.html

You _might_ be able to get that to work now.  I doubt it would be supported
by Livecode.  What amazes me nowadays is just how much more complex things
are than they were 20 years ago - looking at the compatibility matrix for
Livecode dependencies on OS version, XCode version, device version -- all
just to produce apps that run on iOS:

https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/faq/faq/

If someone had said 20 years ago that a small company in Scotland could
manage that kind of complexity people would have laughed in disbelief.  But
rightly LC saw where the future was headed with mobile computing and they
obviously had to make sacrifices along the way (e.g. FreeBSD, etc) to be in
a situation to take on this level of complexity.

HTH Bernard

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 5:08 PM Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:


Dear all,

I have a question.   It's not a very important question and I don’t want
to bother you y 'all, so if you think is off-topic, feel free to not to
respond,  I'm just curious.

I've been working with Livecode for almost five years, and I never saw a
LiveCode server  "UNIX" version.

The LiveCode Wikipedia’s article says this: LiveCode runs on iOS, Android,
OS X, Windows 95 through Windows 10, Raspberry Pi and "several variations
of Unix (I think is just means Linux)".

I'm thinking about tinkering with a FreeBSD server and LiveCode server,
but I didn't see a "UNIX" version, so I suppose that I have to compile it.
Have any of you installed LiveCode server on FreeBSD (or Solaris)?

I'm just thinking, but maybe there's a small niche working  with LiveCode
server on BSD or Solaris (still many companies use them and not many people
develop software for this platforms nowadays).
We have a few companies in Spain (my country) still using Solaris or BSD
servers (mainly in the Graphic arts business).

PS, I currently work with LiveCode Server on Centos, but it could be
interesting  to test it in FreeBSD.

Best regards/ Saludos cordiales/ Cordialement

Heriberto Torrado
​Chief Technology Officer (CTO)
​Director de informática
Directeur informatique

https://networkdreams.net




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​Chief Technology Officer (CTO)
​Director de informática
Directeur informatique

*NetDreams S.C.*
http://www.networkdreams.net 

 Address / Dirección / Adresse:​

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Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Bernard Devlin via use-livecode]

Which is why my sentence finishes with "... to be in a situation to take on
this level of complexity." :-)

Apple first bought the domain iphone.org in 1999. That the iPhone was under
development was even being discussed by mainstream media such as the New
York Times in 2002. The public availability of the iPhone was announced by
Apple at the start of January 2007. Those with an ear to the ground would
have been considering their future options between 2002 and 2007. I'm glad
they had the foresight I didn't have.

Kind regards,
Bernard


On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 7:45 PM Richmond via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> That sounds super if it were true, but I don't think it is as RunRev (as
> they then were) dropped support for SPARC, UNIX and so
> forth a long time before they began work on mobile platforms.
>
> Richmond.
>
>
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Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Richmond via use-livecode]

"But rightly LC saw where the future was headed with mobile computing 
and they obviously had to make sacrifices along the way (e.g. FreeBSD, etc)"


That sounds super if it were true, but I don't think it is as RunRev (as 
they then were) dropped support for SPARC, UNIX and so

forth a long time before they began work on mobile platforms.

Richmond.

On 16.10.20 10:55, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote:

  Hi Heriberto

Back in the day (20 years ago) the engine/IDE ran on FreeBSD and various
proprietary unixes.

The Linux server version has been seen to work on FreeBSD back in 2011
(after installing Linux compatibility layer).

http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Yay-Victory-RevServer-runs-on-FreeBSD-with-Linux-Compat-installed-td3445454.html

You _might_ be able to get that to work now.  I doubt it would be supported
by Livecode.  What amazes me nowadays is just how much more complex things
are than they were 20 years ago - looking at the compatibility matrix for
Livecode dependencies on OS version, XCode version, device version -- all
just to produce apps that run on iOS:

https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/faq/faq/

If someone had said 20 years ago that a small company in Scotland could
manage that kind of complexity people would have laughed in disbelief.  But
rightly LC saw where the future was headed with mobile computing and they
obviously had to make sacrifices along the way (e.g. FreeBSD, etc) to be in
a situation to take on this level of complexity.

HTH Bernard

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 5:08 PM Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:


Dear all,

I have a question.   It's not a very important question and I don’t want
to bother you y 'all, so if you think is off-topic, feel free to not to
respond,  I'm just curious.

I've been working with Livecode for almost five years, and I never saw a
LiveCode server  "UNIX" version.

The LiveCode Wikipedia’s article says this: LiveCode runs on iOS, Android,
OS X, Windows 95 through Windows 10, Raspberry Pi and "several variations
of Unix (I think is just means Linux)".

I'm thinking about tinkering with a FreeBSD server and LiveCode server,
but I didn't see a "UNIX" version, so I suppose that I have to compile it.
Have any of you installed LiveCode server on FreeBSD (or Solaris)?

I'm just thinking, but maybe there's a small niche working  with LiveCode
server on BSD or Solaris (still many companies use them and not many people
develop software for this platforms nowadays).
We have a few companies in Spain (my country) still using Solaris or BSD
servers (mainly in the Graphic arts business).

PS, I currently work with LiveCode Server on Centos, but it could be
interesting  to test it in FreeBSD.

Best regards/ Saludos cordiales/ Cordialement

Heriberto Torrado
​Chief Technology Officer (CTO)
​Director de informática
Directeur informatique

https://networkdreams.net




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Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Bernard Devlin via use-livecode]

 Hi Heriberto

Back in the day (20 years ago) the engine/IDE ran on FreeBSD and various
proprietary unixes.

The Linux server version has been seen to work on FreeBSD back in 2011
(after installing Linux compatibility layer).

http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Yay-Victory-RevServer-runs-on-FreeBSD-with-Linux-Compat-installed-td3445454.html

You _might_ be able to get that to work now.  I doubt it would be supported
by Livecode.  What amazes me nowadays is just how much more complex things
are than they were 20 years ago - looking at the compatibility matrix for
Livecode dependencies on OS version, XCode version, device version -- all
just to produce apps that run on iOS:

https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/faq/faq/

If someone had said 20 years ago that a small company in Scotland could
manage that kind of complexity people would have laughed in disbelief.  But
rightly LC saw where the future was headed with mobile computing and they
obviously had to make sacrifices along the way (e.g. FreeBSD, etc) to be in
a situation to take on this level of complexity.

HTH Bernard

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 5:08 PM Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I have a question.   It's not a very important question and I don’t want
> to bother you y 'all, so if you think is off-topic, feel free to not to
> respond,  I'm just curious.
>
> I've been working with Livecode for almost five years, and I never saw a
> LiveCode server  "UNIX" version.
>
> The LiveCode Wikipedia’s article says this: LiveCode runs on iOS, Android,
> OS X, Windows 95 through Windows 10, Raspberry Pi and "several variations
> of Unix (I think is just means Linux)".
>
> I'm thinking about tinkering with a FreeBSD server and LiveCode server,
> but I didn't see a "UNIX" version, so I suppose that I have to compile it.
> Have any of you installed LiveCode server on FreeBSD (or Solaris)?
>
> I'm just thinking, but maybe there's a small niche working  with LiveCode
> server on BSD or Solaris (still many companies use them and not many people
> develop software for this platforms nowadays).
> We have a few companies in Spain (my country) still using Solaris or BSD
> servers (mainly in the Graphic arts business).
>
> PS, I currently work with LiveCode Server on Centos, but it could be
> interesting  to test it in FreeBSD.
>
> Best regards/ Saludos cordiales/ Cordialement
>
> Heriberto Torrado
> ​Chief Technology Officer (CTO)
> ​Director de informática
> Directeur informatique
>
> https://networkdreams.net
>
>
>
>
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Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

[Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode]

Dear all,

I have a question.   It's not a very important question and I don’t want to 
bother you y 'all, so if you think is off-topic, feel free to not to respond,  
I'm just curious.

I've been working with Livecode for almost five years, and I never saw a 
LiveCode server  "UNIX" version.

The LiveCode Wikipedia’s article says this: LiveCode runs on iOS, Android, OS 
X, Windows 95 through Windows 10, Raspberry Pi and "several variations of Unix 
(I think is just means Linux)".

I'm thinking about tinkering with a FreeBSD server and LiveCode server,  but I 
didn't see a "UNIX" version, so I suppose that I have to compile it. 
Have any of you installed LiveCode server on FreeBSD (or Solaris)?

I'm just thinking, but maybe there's a small niche working  with LiveCode 
server on BSD or Solaris (still many companies use them and not many people 
develop software for this platforms nowadays).
We have a few companies in Spain (my country) still using Solaris or BSD 
servers (mainly in the Graphic arts business).

PS, I currently work with LiveCode Server on Centos, but it could be 
interesting  to test it in FreeBSD.

Best regards/ Saludos cordiales/ Cordialement 

Heriberto Torrado
​Chief Technology Officer (CTO)
​Director de informática
Directeur informatique

https://networkdreams.net




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