Re: Primary Student Livecode Interface (Simplified Developer Interface)

[Richmond via use-livecode]

I have moved this discussion over here as there is the possibility to 
use pictures here,

while one cannot on the Use-List.

http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=107&t=33206&p=184151#p184149

On 10.10.19 22:01, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
Three years ago I spent several months researching both the learner 
experience and how to fund, document, and market a UI specifically for 
young learners based on LiveCode Community Edition.


Many of the readers here may recall phone conversations and emails 
with them during my information-gathering phase.


I had to set the project aside because funding proved difficult. I 
hope to return to it as my own resources allow me to resume the 
arduous funding process.


The UI part of it was based around levels, but less like HyperCard's, 
and more like what you're looking for.  HC's user levels were based 
around authoring capabilities by role, while my EDU design used them 
more like gaming levels for pedagological reasons.


I discussed this project as part of the second half of my Community 
Keynote at the last LC conference, for those of you who have access to 
them (I've asked that my community talks be made available publicly, 
but I can understand that it's not be a high priority).


I'm up to my armpits in commercial development at the moment, but am 
eager to return to this EDU project as soon as funding makes the 
effort viable. Anyone seriously interested in contributing to the 
efforts to help find funding for such a system is welcome to email me 
at ambassador AT fourthworld.com


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems


John Patten wrote:


Good Morning from SoCal,

Quick question, anybody ever develop a simplified LiveCode “developer 
interface/tool“ project?


If you’ve been around awhile, you might remember how HyperCard had 
multiple development modes. Level one allowed you to use drawing 
tools create buttons that would allow you to ”go to next card” etc. 
Pretty much no script access.

Levels 2-3 gradually provided more capabilities.
If you new the correct procedure, you could completely unlock 
Hypercard, with access to all developer components (Level 4?)


Has anybody created a simplified Livecode developer interface for 
newbies?  Something that could be used to introduce, but not 
initially over whelm a new user?


Just trying to not reinvent the wheel, if someone has already gone 
down this path and would be willing to share :)


Thank you!
John Patten



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Re: Primary Student Livecode Interface (Simplified Developer Interface)

[Tore Nilsen via use-livecode]

Hi!

I teach a beginners course in programming on highschool level in Norway. Just 
like Devin, I have found that the most important thing is what you want your 
students to learn. The development environment is not very important. I try to 
introduce various components in a way that helps build the students 
understanding of the fundamental concepts and principles used in programming.

I use a methodology quite similar to the one Devin suggests at the end of his 
reply. 

1. I present and show my students a concept/principles/method
2. We use this concept on various simple problems together in the class - this 
will often be accompanied by classroom discussion
3. The students then get a task where they can apply the concept on a problem 
that is quite similar to the problems used in point 1 and 2
4. Then I give my students a task which involves a more complex problem, where 
the application of the concept is not very obvious. At this point I encourage 
my students to help each other with the task.
5. The students then show their various attempts at solving the problem, either 
to a group of students or the whole class, and we discuss the various solutions 
in class
6. If needed I will then show them examples of «best practises». Here I will 
also present various controls and how they can be used as part of the solution 
of the given problem

At the moment we are setting up the classroom to facilitate this approach in a 
better way. The classroom is divided into five groups, each group having its 
own large table with a 42 inch monitor, that all students can connect to, at 
the end of the table. We are about to set up a solution with HDMI Matrix 
Switches that will allow each student to route their screen to any of the 
monitors and to the main projector if needed. Likewise, I can share my screen 
with any of the monitors or the main projector. This will help my students in 
sharing their solutions/problems with each other.

Like Devin, I have also come across research that seems to indicate that 
drilling is better than complex problem solving in teaching basic skills. 
However, my experience is that to much of this will make it harder for my 
students to become good problem solvers. In my course, all students must 
develop an application of their own choosing, from initial idea to finished 
product, in the last term. Many of my students have indicated that this have 
been the most important factor in the development of both understanding of and 
skills in programming. I think that the most important factor in this is the 
kind of problem the students face in step 4 of this method. This problem most 
be near enough to the original problem, but still different from it. This 
decides the quality of the discussions we get after the students have tried to 
solve the problem.

Best regards
Tore Nilsen

> 10. okt. 2019 kl. 20:36 skrev Devin Asay via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> RIchmond has an excellent point: your development environment is less 
> important than your goal.
> 
> The reason that all of us immediately typed ’set the userLevel to 5’ in 
> HyperCard is that you wouldn’t get far in your task until you needed a 
> bump-up to a higher level of capabilities.
> 
> I also teach beginning programming (beginning application development is 
> actually a better term), but to college students rather than primary kids. I 
> realized recently like a bolt of lightening that I have been spending far too 
> much instruction time describing the development environment and too little 
> on setting tasks and then telling the students about the tools in LC that let 
> them accomplish the task. I don’t know why it took me so long to come to that 
> insight, because “need-based” learning is how I learned both HyperCard and 
> LiveCode. (And probably how most of us learned.) Now I’m thinking about ways 
> to incorporate more task-based instruction into my classes.
> 
> But then I’m faced with the paradox that, according to some of the research 
> I’ve looked at on teaching programming, large problem solving assignments are 
> less effective than focused focused practice in teaching fundamental 
> programming concepts. What I take from that is that students are helped by 
> “drilling” a concept with canned, focused, smaller tasks than they are by 
> setting them a complex problem to solve. So my evolving approach is 1. 
> present a concept, 2. do some drill and practice on the concept, 3. set them 
> a more complex task that requires them to apply the concept.
> 
> I had imagined by this time in my career that I’d have figured this all out. 
> I might just be slow. :-)
> 
> Devin

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Re: Primary Student Livecode Interface (Simplified Developer Interface)

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Three years ago I spent several months researching both the learner 
experience and how to fund, document, and market a UI specifically for 
young learners based on LiveCode Community Edition.


Many of the readers here may recall phone conversations and emails with 
them during my information-gathering phase.


I had to set the project aside because funding proved difficult.  I hope 
to return to it as my own resources allow me to resume the arduous 
funding process.


The UI part of it was based around levels, but less like HyperCard's, 
and more like what you're looking for.  HC's user levels were based 
around authoring capabilities by role, while my EDU design used them 
more like gaming levels for pedagological reasons.


I discussed this project as part of the second half of my Community 
Keynote at the last LC conference, for those of you who have access to 
them (I've asked that my community talks be made available publicly, but 
I can understand that it's not be a high priority).


I'm up to my armpits in commercial development at the moment, but am 
eager to return to this EDU project as soon as funding makes the effort 
viable. Anyone seriously interested in contributing to the efforts to 
help find funding for such a system is welcome to email me at ambassador 
AT fourthworld.com


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems


John Patten wrote:


Good Morning from SoCal,

Quick question, anybody ever develop a simplified LiveCode “developer 
interface/tool“ project?

If you’ve been around awhile, you might remember how HyperCard had multiple development modes. Level one allowed you to use drawing tools create buttons that would allow you to ”go to next card” etc. Pretty much no script access. 

Levels 2-3 gradually provided more capabilities. 


If you new the correct procedure, you could completely unlock Hypercard, with 
access to all developer components (Level 4?)

Has anybody created a simplified Livecode developer interface for newbies?  
Something that could be used to introduce, but not initially over whelm a new 
user?

Just trying to not reinvent the wheel, if someone has already gone down this 
path and would be willing to share :)

Thank you!
John Patten



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Re: Primary Student Livecode Interface (Simplified Developer Interface)

[Devin Asay via use-livecode]

RIchmond has an excellent point: your development environment is less important 
than your goal.

The reason that all of us immediately typed ’set the userLevel to 5’ in 
HyperCard is that you wouldn’t get far in your task until you needed a bump-up 
to a higher level of capabilities.

I also teach beginning programming (beginning application development is 
actually a better term), but to college students rather than primary kids. I 
realized recently like a bolt of lightening that I have been spending far too 
much instruction time describing the development environment and too little on 
setting tasks and then telling the students about the tools in LC that let them 
accomplish the task. I don’t know why it took me so long to come to that 
insight, because “need-based” learning is how I learned both HyperCard and 
LiveCode. (And probably how most of us learned.) Now I’m thinking about ways to 
incorporate more task-based instruction into my classes.

But then I’m faced with the paradox that, according to some of the research 
I’ve looked at on teaching programming, large problem solving assignments are 
less effective than focused focused practice in teaching fundamental 
programming concepts. What I take from that is that students are helped by 
“drilling” a concept with canned, focused, smaller tasks than they are by 
setting them a complex problem to solve. So my evolving approach is 1. present 
a concept, 2. do some drill and practice on the concept, 3. set them a more 
complex task that requires them to apply the concept.

I had imagined by this time in my career that I’d have figured this all out. I 
might just be slow. :-)

Devin


On Oct 10, 2019, at 11:48 AM, Richmond via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Well: for starters you are going to have to trawl right through LiveCode and 
decide
which capabilities fall into which of the 5 levels . . .

Then decide who you are going to block, for instance, access to a button script 
at level 4;
or partial blocking as you are going to allow buttons to do some things.

I designed a HyperCard-like set of tools for LiveCode a few years ago because,
over on a Yahoo group, various people who haven't worked a few home truths out 
were
bemoaning having a sophisticated interface to LiveCode instead of a dumed-down 
version: mine
was so dumbed-down it was almost moronic. For "some odd reason"
there were no takers as far as I am aware.

I teach Primary kids LiveCode every summer and we do just fine with the 
standard set of tools:
the kids use exactly what they require and are generally self-limiting.

Richmond.

On 10.10.19 18:53, Devin Asay via use-livecode wrote:
Hi John,

This idea has been discussed over the years, but I don’t know of anyone who has 
implemented it.

The userLevels were:

1 - Browsing - the ability to run and explore stacks, but no ability to make 
changes.
2 - Typing - added the ability to type and edit text in fields.
3 - Painting - added the ability to use the Paint tools to change the appears 
of cards and backgrounds.
4 - Authoring - added the ability to create buttons and fields and to link 
buttons to cards and stacks.
5 - Scripting - gave you full access to all developer components, including 
scripting.

The “magic words” were ’set the userLevel to 5’.

I found this information in my cobwebby brain, but was helped by the 
information on this page: http://folkstream.com/muse/teachhc/using/hcusing.html

Best of luck. I think there are other people here who would be interested in 
this if you find or make something.

Devin

On Oct 10, 2019, at 9:41 AM, JOHN PATTEN via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>
 wrote:

Good Morning from SoCal,

Quick question, anybody ever develop a simplified LiveCode “developer 
interface/tool“ project?

If you’ve been around awhile, you might remember how HyperCard had multiple 
development modes. Level one allowed you to use drawing tools create buttons 
that would allow you to ”go to next card” etc. Pretty much no script access.

Levels 2-3 gradually provided more capabilities.

If you new the correct procedure, you could completely unlock Hypercard, with 
access to all developer components (Level 4?)

Has anybody created a simplified Livecode developer interface for newbies?  
Something that could be used to introduce, but not initially over whelm a new 
user?

Just trying to not reinvent the wheel, if someone has already gone down this 
path and would be willing to share :)


Devin Asay
Director
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University

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Re: Primary Student Livecode Interface (Simplified Developer Interface)

[Richmond via use-livecode]

Well: for starters you are going to have to trawl right through LiveCode 
and decide

which capabilities fall into which of the 5 levels . . .

Then decide who you are going to block, for instance, access to a button 
script at level 4;

or partial blocking as you are going to allow buttons to do some things.

I designed a HyperCard-like set of tools for LiveCode a few years ago 
because,
over on a Yahoo group, various people who haven't worked a few home 
truths out were
bemoaning having a sophisticated interface to LiveCode instead of a 
dumed-down version: mine

was so dumbed-down it was almost moronic. For "some odd reason"
there were no takers as far as I am aware.

I teach Primary kids LiveCode every summer and we do just fine with the 
standard set of tools:

the kids use exactly what they require and are generally self-limiting.

Richmond.

On 10.10.19 18:53, Devin Asay via use-livecode wrote:

Hi John,

This idea has been discussed over the years, but I don’t know of anyone who has 
implemented it.

The userLevels were:

1 - Browsing - the ability to run and explore stacks, but no ability to make 
changes.
2 - Typing - added the ability to type and edit text in fields.
3 - Painting - added the ability to use the Paint tools to change the appears 
of cards and backgrounds.
4 - Authoring - added the ability to create buttons and fields and to link 
buttons to cards and stacks.
5 - Scripting - gave you full access to all developer components, including 
scripting.

The “magic words” were ’set the userLevel to 5’.

I found this information in my cobwebby brain, but was helped by the 
information on this page: http://folkstream.com/muse/teachhc/using/hcusing.html

Best of luck. I think there are other people here who would be interested in 
this if you find or make something.

Devin


On Oct 10, 2019, at 9:41 AM, JOHN PATTEN via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Good Morning from SoCal,

Quick question, anybody ever develop a simplified LiveCode “developer 
interface/tool“ project?

If you’ve been around awhile, you might remember how HyperCard had multiple 
development modes. Level one allowed you to use drawing tools create buttons 
that would allow you to ”go to next card” etc. Pretty much no script access.

Levels 2-3 gradually provided more capabilities.

If you new the correct procedure, you could completely unlock Hypercard, with 
access to all developer components (Level 4?)

Has anybody created a simplified Livecode developer interface for newbies?  
Something that could be used to introduce, but not initially over whelm a new 
user?

Just trying to not reinvent the wheel, if someone has already gone down this 
path and would be willing to share :)

Thank you!
John Patten



Sent from my iPhone

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Devin Asay
Director
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University

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Re: Primary Student Livecode Interface (Simplified Developer Interface)

[Devin Asay via use-livecode]

Hi John,

This idea has been discussed over the years, but I don’t know of anyone who has 
implemented it.

The userLevels were:

1 - Browsing - the ability to run and explore stacks, but no ability to make 
changes.
2 - Typing - added the ability to type and edit text in fields.
3 - Painting - added the ability to use the Paint tools to change the appears 
of cards and backgrounds.
4 - Authoring - added the ability to create buttons and fields and to link 
buttons to cards and stacks.
5 - Scripting - gave you full access to all developer components, including 
scripting.

The “magic words” were ’set the userLevel to 5’.

I found this information in my cobwebby brain, but was helped by the 
information on this page: http://folkstream.com/muse/teachhc/using/hcusing.html

Best of luck. I think there are other people here who would be interested in 
this if you find or make something.

Devin


On Oct 10, 2019, at 9:41 AM, JOHN PATTEN via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Good Morning from SoCal,

Quick question, anybody ever develop a simplified LiveCode “developer 
interface/tool“ project?

If you’ve been around awhile, you might remember how HyperCard had multiple 
development modes. Level one allowed you to use drawing tools create buttons 
that would allow you to ”go to next card” etc. Pretty much no script access.

Levels 2-3 gradually provided more capabilities.

If you new the correct procedure, you could completely unlock Hypercard, with 
access to all developer components (Level 4?)

Has anybody created a simplified Livecode developer interface for newbies?  
Something that could be used to introduce, but not initially over whelm a new 
user?

Just trying to not reinvent the wheel, if someone has already gone down this 
path and would be willing to share :)

Thank you!
John Patten



Sent from my iPhone

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Devin Asay
Director
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University

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Primary Student Livecode Interface (Simplified Developer Interface)

[JOHN PATTEN via use-livecode]

Good Morning from SoCal,

Quick question, anybody ever develop a simplified LiveCode “developer 
interface/tool“ project?

If you’ve been around awhile, you might remember how HyperCard had multiple 
development modes. Level one allowed you to use drawing tools create buttons 
that would allow you to ”go to next card” etc. Pretty much no script access. 

Levels 2-3 gradually provided more capabilities. 

If you new the correct procedure, you could completely unlock Hypercard, with 
access to all developer components (Level 4?)

Has anybody created a simplified Livecode developer interface for newbies?  
Something that could be used to introduce, but not initially over whelm a new 
user?

Just trying to not reinvent the wheel, if someone has already gone down this 
path and would be willing to share :)

Thank you!
John Patten



Sent from my iPhone

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