Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Kevin Miller]

If you need something more on Android and want to write it we would be
more than happy to support you doing that in LCB.

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps




On 05/05/2016, 19:20, "use-livecode on behalf of Todd Fabacher"

wrote:

>Actually Kevin, sorry but...
>
>users need to be aware about Android. The statement "Bear in mind however
>that basic display is already possible with the browser included in all
>editions of LC." is not 100% accurate. A PDF does NOT display within the
>web browser in Android. We ended up having to use the Android mergExt
>external to display a PDF. This is an Android issue, not LiveCode, but
>this
>is all the more reason the community should band together and get a PDF
>viewer created. I will be happy to contribute some resources!!!
>
>But I agree with Kevin. Everyone shouts Open Source, but few are willing
>to
>put in the time and efforts it takes to make it happen. Send me an email
>if
>you are interested in the PDF viewer. I will get one of my C guys to start
>looking into it. We just need to learn LiveCode Builder.
>
>--Todd
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Roger Eller]

Nice!  Works with DropBox URLs too!!!

https://docs.google.com/gview?embedded=true=https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54789013/Elio_Bucks.pdf



On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Kevin Miller wrote:
>
> > On Android there is an extra step:
> >
> > If your PDF is at:
> > http://livecode.com/mydoc.pdf
> >
> > You need to wrap it with the Google doc viewer by setting the widget
> > URL on Android to:
> >
> http://docs.google.com/gview?embedded=true=http://livecode.com/mydoc.pdf
> >
>
> Way cool - thanks.
>
> Good news for everyone who's been clamoring for PDF rendering in the Indy
> and Community versions of LC.
>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[John Burtt]

I have been using it for my help files for several years now. I use Screensteps 
to build my help files and export them as PDF files. I have the PDF files on my 
server. When the user clicks the “Help” button, they are downloaded to a 
separate livecode browser window. Works well on Mac and Windows. I haven’t 
tried on Linux or mobile.

Cheers,
John Burtt



> Kevin Miller wrote:
>> 
>>> ...basic display is already possible with the
>>> browser included in all editions of LC.
>> 
>> That's kind of a big deal.  I'm not sure how so many of us missed that,
>> but basic display on a card is all most people have been asking for.
>> Super cool.
>> 
>> Anyone here using that?  Working well on the platforms you're deploying
>> to?
>> 
>> -- 
>> Richard Gaskin
>> Fourth World Systems
>> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>> 
>> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>> 
>> 
>> ___


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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Richard Gaskin]

Kevin Miller wrote:

> Almost right. We were aiming for complete parity for the heavier
> weight browser renderer in the widget to provide perfect cross
> platform compatibility and for exactly these sorts of reasons but
> it wasn't possible due to some platform specific issues we found
> integrating the framework.
>
> However PDF should still work on all platforms because:
>
> Windows & Linux are CEF (Chromium)
> Mac is WebView (WebKit based)
> iOS is UIWebView (WebKit based)
> Android is Android WebView
>
> Mac & iOS WebKit can handle it (we had originally planned to use
> Chromium on everything to get a completely consistent experience
> but had to withdraw it due to Mac specific CEF bugs).
>
> On Android there is an extra step:
>
> If your PDF is at:
> http://livecode.com/mydoc.pdf
>
> You need to wrap it with the Google doc viewer by setting the widget
> URL on Android to:
> 
http://docs.google.com/gview?embedded=true=http://livecode.com/mydoc.pdf

>
> Chromium should be able to handle PDF on Windows/Linux. That said I
> did just see a crash when trying it just now on Windows (avoidable
> for now by using the same method as for Android). Panos has filed a
> bug :)

Way cool - thanks.

Good news for everyone who's been clamoring for PDF rendering in the 
Indy and Community versions of LC.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Todd Fabacher]

Actually Kevin, sorry but...

users need to be aware about Android. The statement "Bear in mind however
that basic display is already possible with the browser included in all
editions of LC." is not 100% accurate. A PDF does NOT display within the
web browser in Android. We ended up having to use the Android mergExt
external to display a PDF. This is an Android issue, not LiveCode, but this
is all the more reason the community should band together and get a PDF
viewer created. I will be happy to contribute some resources!!!

But I agree with Kevin. Everyone shouts Open Source, but few are willing to
put in the time and efforts it takes to make it happen. Send me an email if
you are interested in the PDF viewer. I will get one of my C guys to start
looking into it. We just need to learn LiveCode Builder.

--Todd
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Kevin Miller]

Almost right. We were aiming for complete parity for the heavier weight
browser renderer in the widget to provide perfect cross platform
compatibility and for exactly these sorts of reasons but it wasn't
possible due to some platform specific issues we found integrating the
framework.

However PDF should still work on all platforms because:

Windows & Linux are CEF (Chromium)
Mac is WebView (WebKit based)
iOS is UIWebView (WebKit based)
Android is Android WebView


Mac & iOS WebKit can handle it (we had originally planned to use Chromium
on everything to get a completely consistent experience but had to
withdraw it due to Mac specific CEF bugs).

On Android there is an extra step:

If your PDF is at:
http://livecode.com/mydoc.pdf


You need to wrap it with the Google doc viewer by setting the widget URL
on Android to:
http://docs.google.com/gview?embedded=true=http://livecode.com/mydoc.pd
f


Chromium should be able to handle PDF on Windows/Linux. That said I did
just see a crash when trying it just now on Windows (avoidable for now by
using the same method as for Android). Panos has filed a bug :)


Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps




On 05/05/2016, 16:56, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin"
 wrote:

>Kevin Miller wrote:
>
> > On 05/05/2016, 16:10, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> >
> >>Kevin Miller wrote:
> >>
> >> > ...basic display is already possible with the
> >> > browser included in all editions of LC.
> >>
> >> That's kind of a big deal. I'm not sure how so many of us missed
> >> that, but basic display on a card is all most people have been
> >> asking for. Super cool.
> >>
> >> Anyone here using that? Working well on the platforms you're
> >> deploying to?
> >
> > I am, and have been for some time as it happens!
>
>Seems most missed that in whatever Release Notes that was mentioned in.
>
>It never would have occurred to me that a browser engine would also
>include its own embedded PDF renderer, separate from any that might be
>included in the OS (and IIRC Windows doesn't include one out of the box).
>
>Providing a PDF renderer along with the rest of the HTML rendering with
>that browser engine is definitely something work noting in a bullet
>point somewhere.
>
>-- 
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Richard Gaskin]

Roger Eller wrote:

> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 11:56 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> It never would have occurred to me that a browser engine would also
>> include its own embedded PDF renderer, separate from any that might
>> be included in the OS (and IIRC Windows doesn't include one out of
>> the box).
>>
>> Providing a PDF renderer along with the rest of the HTML rendering
>> with that browser engine is definitely something work noting in a
>> bullet point somewhere.
>
> Android is still in need of an in-stack PDF display feature.
> The default behavior is to pass it to a user-installed PDF
> viewer app.

Was that using the CEF browser object?  I wonder if there's something we 
can use in our scripts to make use of its embedded PDF renderer.



Jim MacConnell wrote:
> I do and it's great!
> I am serving PDF formatted industrial machine setup sheets to
> operators.
> I have a user preference setting to either display PDF as a separate
> window in Adobe Reader or in an "embedded" viewer (Browser window).
> Operators prefer the browser based display since it's "part of the
> system".
> All they really want/need is to move and zoom in a document.
> WIN only to date cuz that's what we use.

Super-cool.  Thanks for noting that you've had good success on Windows.

That bodes well for the potential to be able to make use of the embedded 
PDF renderer on Android.  Fingers crossed...


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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RE: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Jim MacConnell]

I do and it's great! 
I am serving PDF formatted industrial machine setup sheets to operators.
I have a user preference setting to either display PDF as a separate window
in Adobe Reader or in an "embedded" viewer (Browser window). 
Operators prefer the browser based display since it's "part of the system".
All they really want/need is to move and zoom in a document.
WIN only to date cuz that's what we use.
Jim

-Original Message-
From: Richard Gaskin [mailto:ambassa...@fourthworld.com] 
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 8:10 AM
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Subject: Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

Kevin Miller wrote:

 > ...basic display is already possible with the  > browser included in all
editions of LC.

That's kind of a big deal.  I'm not sure how so many of us missed that, but
basic display on a card is all most people have been asking for. 
Super cool.

Anyone here using that?  Working well on the platforms you're deploying to?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  
  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Roger Eller]

Android is still in need of an in-stack PDF display feature.  The default
behavior is to pass it to a user-installed PDF viewer app.

~Roger


On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 11:56 AM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Kevin Miller wrote:
>
> > On 05/05/2016, 16:10, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> >
> >>Kevin Miller wrote:
> >>
> >> > ...basic display is already possible with the
> >> > browser included in all editions of LC.
> >>
> >> That's kind of a big deal. I'm not sure how so many of us missed
> >> that, but basic display on a card is all most people have been
> >> asking for. Super cool.
> >>
> >> Anyone here using that? Working well on the platforms you're
> >> deploying to?
> >
> > I am, and have been for some time as it happens!
>
> Seems most missed that in whatever Release Notes that was mentioned in.
>
> It never would have occurred to me that a browser engine would also
> include its own embedded PDF renderer, separate from any that might be
> included in the OS (and IIRC Windows doesn't include one out of the box).
>
> Providing a PDF renderer along with the rest of the HTML rendering with
> that browser engine is definitely something work noting in a bullet point
> somewhere.
>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Richard Gaskin]

Kevin Miller wrote:

> On 05/05/2016, 16:10, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>
>>Kevin Miller wrote:
>>
>> > ...basic display is already possible with the
>> > browser included in all editions of LC.
>>
>> That's kind of a big deal. I'm not sure how so many of us missed
>> that, but basic display on a card is all most people have been
>> asking for. Super cool.
>>
>> Anyone here using that? Working well on the platforms you're
>> deploying to?
>
> I am, and have been for some time as it happens!

Seems most missed that in whatever Release Notes that was mentioned in.

It never would have occurred to me that a browser engine would also 
include its own embedded PDF renderer, separate from any that might be 
included in the OS (and IIRC Windows doesn't include one out of the box).


Providing a PDF renderer along with the rest of the HTML rendering with 
that browser engine is definitely something work noting in a bullet 
point somewhere.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Kevin Miller]

I am, and have been for some time as it happens!

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps




On 05/05/2016, 16:10, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin"
 wrote:

>Kevin Miller wrote:
>
> > ...basic display is already possible with the
> > browser included in all editions of LC.
>
>That's kind of a big deal.  I'm not sure how so many of us missed that,
>but basic display on a card is all most people have been asking for.
>Super cool.
>
>Anyone here using that?  Working well on the platforms you're deploying
>to?
>
>-- 
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Richard Gaskin]

Kevin Miller wrote:

> ...basic display is already possible with the
> browser included in all editions of LC.

That's kind of a big deal.  I'm not sure how so many of us missed that, 
but basic display on a card is all most people have been asking for. 
Super cool.


Anyone here using that?  Working well on the platforms you're deploying to?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Kevin Miller]

I think its worth a quick chime in here. The total development costs for
XPDF ran into the tens of thousands of dollars. Our acquisition/trade cost
for them was not cheap either. It is unlikely we could recoup that
investment or invest in them further (as we plan to do) selling these as
low cost add ons. They need to within the Business license. That isn¹t to
say that from time to time some features might trickle down but we have no
immediate plans to do that at the moment.

Of course we¹d welcome a community project to display PDF and if you want
support and pointers on how to do that with a widget we¹ll be happy to
help. Bear in mind however that basic display is already possible with the
browser included in all editions of LC.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps




On 04/05/2016, 18:28, "use-livecode on behalf of Paul Dupuis"

wrote:

>On 5/4/2016 12:13 PM, RM wrote:
>> I would suppose the ideal thing would be both something that allows
>> one to render a PDF document,
>> and extract all or part of an embedded text layer (if one exists in
>> the original PDF).
>
>The XPDF external from LiveCode for OSX and Win is based on Google's
>PDFium library. I can say this because I know something about the
>details of XPDF. Researchware (my company) development XPDF and recently
>transferred the rights to LiveCode.
>
>Richard is correct in that the XPDF external not only opens and displays
>a PDF, but allows zooming, navigation, layout, hyperlinks, selection of
>text (for PDFs with editable text) or any potion of any page as an image
>selection, and allows you to extract text or images. It also supports
>password protected PDFs and more. Therefore, if ALL you want is just to
>display pages from a PDF it is certainly more than you may need. The
>same could be said about the feature set of LiveCode itself.
>
>Richmond just showed that some people want more - in his case,
>extraction of all of part of the text. If you ONLY want to do that under
>script control, then that would be an incremental effort over just
>displaying a PDF.
>
>If you want the USER to be able to select text (or images), then that is
>a significant chunk of work beyond just displaying a PDF as the PDFium
>library contains NO APIs for user selection and that must be original
>code added by the external. A large amount of effort went into making
>sure user selection of text was as good as Adobe or Preview or Foxit's
>PDF viewers, which was definitely not as easy as one might expect (or
>hope)!
>
>I can tell you that a LOT of developer time (i.e money) went into the
>creation, QA testing, and refinement of XPDF.
>
>Obviously, since Google PDFium is open source, anyone can create an
>alternative to XPDF, perhaps an even better version. If people want to
>build one, I encourage it. A competitive market of LiveCode PDF widgets
>just gives me more choice for my company's PDF needs ;-) However,  I
>offer the caution of experience that there are a lot more little
>"gotchas" in working with PDFium that anyone may realize, even after
>reading the APIs, and making another from scratch may be much more work
>than people might expect.
>
>I think those interested in PDF might be better off continuing to lobby
>for LiveCode to offer XPDF as an add-on (like so many other excellent LC
>add-ons from Chartmaker to Wordlib to RRP Spell) for a appropriate
>price. It seems only logical that eventually they would convert it to an
>LC8 Widget as well.
>
>
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[JB]

That will help tremendously!

Thank you, Monty

JB

1
> On May 4, 2016, at 5:19 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:
> 
> BTW I have a some Xcode templates that can help make things easier available 
> at https://github.com/montegoulding/livecode-external-templates
> 
>> On 5 May 2016, at 9:25 AM, JB  wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks Monty.
>> I will give it a try.
>> 
>> JB
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 4, 2016, at 4:09 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 On 5 May 2016, at 8:39 AM, JB  wrote:
 
 I am trying to compile a external using xCode 7.  Is it possible in anyway 
 to
 make that external work or a way to use any version of Xcode on El Capitan
 and make the external work?
>>> 
>>> Yes
 Do you compile externals on a Mac with new
 OS X systems like El Capitan and if you do what are you doing to make it
 work?  
>>> 
>>> Yes I use El Capitan and the latest Xcode.
 So I am looking for anyway to make the external work.
>>> 
>>> Ok so where exactly are you getting stuck? Perhaps it would help you to 
>>> look at one of my externals on GitHub like mergJson? 
>>> https://github.com/montegoulding/mergJSON
 
 JB
 
 
 
> On May 4, 2016, at 3:21 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:
> 
> A patch for what precisely?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 5 May 2016, at 8:12 AM, JB  wrote:
>> 
>> What I am trying to do is compile a external
>> for Revolution.  Is there a way to compile a
>> external for Revolution on Mac that is using
>> El Capitan?  A patch or anything to make it
>> work?
> 
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>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Monte Goulding]

BTW I have a some Xcode templates that can help make things easier available at 
https://github.com/montegoulding/livecode-external-templates
 
> On 5 May 2016, at 9:25 AM, JB  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Monty.
> I will give it a try.
> 
> JB
> 
> 
>> On May 4, 2016, at 4:09 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 5 May 2016, at 8:39 AM, JB  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I am trying to compile a external using xCode 7.  Is it possible in anyway 
>>> to
>>> make that external work or a way to use any version of Xcode on El Capitan
>>> and make the external work?
>> 
>> Yes
>>> Do you compile externals on a Mac with new
>>> OS X systems like El Capitan and if you do what are you doing to make it
>>> work?  
>> 
>> Yes I use El Capitan and the latest Xcode.
>>> So I am looking for anyway to make the external work.
>> 
>> Ok so where exactly are you getting stuck? Perhaps it would help you to look 
>> at one of my externals on GitHub like mergJson? 
>> https://github.com/montegoulding/mergJSON
>>> 
>>> JB
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On May 4, 2016, at 3:21 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:
 
 A patch for what precisely?
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On 5 May 2016, at 8:12 AM, JB  wrote:
> 
> What I am trying to do is compile a external
> for Revolution.  Is there a way to compile a
> external for Revolution on Mac that is using
> El Capitan?  A patch or anything to make it
> work?
 
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[JB]

Thanks Monty.
I will give it a try.

JB


> On May 4, 2016, at 4:09 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 5 May 2016, at 8:39 AM, JB  wrote:
>> 
>> I am trying to compile a external using xCode 7.  Is it possible in anyway to
>> make that external work or a way to use any version of Xcode on El Capitan
>> and make the external work?
> 
> Yes
>> Do you compile externals on a Mac with new
>> OS X systems like El Capitan and if you do what are you doing to make it
>> work?  
> 
> Yes I use El Capitan and the latest Xcode.
>> So I am looking for anyway to make the external work.
> 
> Ok so where exactly are you getting stuck? Perhaps it would help you to look 
> at one of my externals on GitHub like mergJson? 
> https://github.com/montegoulding/mergJSON
>> 
>> JB
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 4, 2016, at 3:21 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:
>>> 
>>> A patch for what precisely?
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On 5 May 2016, at 8:12 AM, JB  wrote:
 
 What I am trying to do is compile a external
 for Revolution.  Is there a way to compile a
 external for Revolution on Mac that is using
 El Capitan?  A patch or anything to make it
 work?
>>> 
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[JB]

Thank you,  I won’t use XPDF for older
versions.  That is good to know.


q

JB


> On May 4, 2016, at 4:04 PM, Paul Dupuis  wrote:
> 
> On 5/4/2016 6:39 PM, JB wrote:
>> I am trying to compile a external using xCode 7.  Is it possible in anyway to
>> make that external work or a way to use any version of Xcode on El Capitan
>> and make the external work?  Do you compile externals on a Mac with new
>> OS X systems like El Capitan and if you do what are you doing to make it
>> work?  So I am looking for anyway to make the external work.
>> 
>> JB
> 
> I am confused. If the 'external' you are referring to is XPDF, you do
> not need Xcode or anything like that. However XPDF will not work on any
> version of LiveCode below LC 6.7.x, so if you are trying to use XPDF
> with an ancient version of "Revolution" (like 2.x or something) you are
> out of luck.
> 
> If you have some 'external' you are trying to build, what is it? And
> what version of "Revolution" (vs LiveCode" are you trying to build it
> for? I am surprised any version of Revolution even runs under El Capitan
> - I think you need at least LiveCode 4.5 or maybe 4.6.4 or higher to run
> on El Capitan
> 
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[JB]

Do you know of a good emulator that will work or is it possible
to make it work by compiling from the commond line tools or
another way?

thank you,
JB


> On May 4, 2016, at 3:21 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:
> 
> A patch for what precisely?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 5 May 2016, at 8:12 AM, JB  wrote:
>> 
>> What I am trying to do is compile a external
>> for Revolution.  Is there a way to compile a
>> external for Revolution on Mac that is using
>> El Capitan?  A patch or anything to make it
>> work?
> 
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Monte Goulding]

> On 5 May 2016, at 8:39 AM, JB  wrote:
> 
> I am trying to compile a external using xCode 7.  Is it possible in anyway to
> make that external work or a way to use any version of Xcode on El Capitan
> and make the external work?

Yes
>  Do you compile externals on a Mac with new
> OS X systems like El Capitan and if you do what are you doing to make it
> work?  

Yes I use El Capitan and the latest Xcode.
> So I am looking for anyway to make the external work.

Ok so where exactly are you getting stuck? Perhaps it would help you to look at 
one of my externals on GitHub like mergJson? 
https://github.com/montegoulding/mergJSON
> 
> JB
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 4, 2016, at 3:21 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:
>> 
>> A patch for what precisely?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 5 May 2016, at 8:12 AM, JB  wrote:
>>> 
>>> What I am trying to do is compile a external
>>> for Revolution.  Is there a way to compile a
>>> external for Revolution on Mac that is using
>>> El Capitan?  A patch or anything to make it
>>> work?
>> 
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Paul Dupuis]

On 5/4/2016 6:39 PM, JB wrote:
> I am trying to compile a external using xCode 7.  Is it possible in anyway to
> make that external work or a way to use any version of Xcode on El Capitan
> and make the external work?  Do you compile externals on a Mac with new
> OS X systems like El Capitan and if you do what are you doing to make it
> work?  So I am looking for anyway to make the external work.
>
> JB

I am confused. If the 'external' you are referring to is XPDF, you do
not need Xcode or anything like that. However XPDF will not work on any
version of LiveCode below LC 6.7.x, so if you are trying to use XPDF
with an ancient version of "Revolution" (like 2.x or something) you are
out of luck.

If you have some 'external' you are trying to build, what is it? And
what version of "Revolution" (vs LiveCode" are you trying to build it
for? I am surprised any version of Revolution even runs under El Capitan
- I think you need at least LiveCode 4.5 or maybe 4.6.4 or higher to run
on El Capitan

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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[JB]

I am trying to compile a external using xCode 7.  Is it possible in anyway to
make that external work or a way to use any version of Xcode on El Capitan
and make the external work?  Do you compile externals on a Mac with new
OS X systems like El Capitan and if you do what are you doing to make it
work?  So I am looking for anyway to make the external work.

JB



> On May 4, 2016, at 3:21 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:
> 
> A patch for what precisely?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 5 May 2016, at 8:12 AM, JB  wrote:
>> 
>> What I am trying to do is compile a external
>> for Revolution.  Is there a way to compile a
>> external for Revolution on Mac that is using
>> El Capitan?  A patch or anything to make it
>> work?
> 
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Monte Goulding]

A patch for what precisely?

Sent from my iPhone

> On 5 May 2016, at 8:12 AM, JB  wrote:
> 
> What I am trying to do is compile a external
> for Revolution.  Is there a way to compile a
> external for Revolution on Mac that is using
> El Capitan?  A patch or anything to make it
> work?

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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[JB]

What I am trying to do is compile a external
for Revolution.  Is there a way to compile a
external for Revolution on Mac that is using
El Capitan?  A patch or anything to make it
work?

JB

> On May 4, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 5 May 2016, at 7:23 AM, JB  wrote:
>> 
>> Anyone know how to make xCode 7 externals work
>> with Revolution? The latest version of xCode it will
>> take is 2.4 and I do not have that on my current Mac.
>> Or is there a way to install the older version on a mac
>> with El Capitan?
> 
> I think you need to clarify what you are trying to do with which versions of 
> what in order for someone to help you here. Xcode 2.4 definitely won’t work 
> on El Capitan.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Monte
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Monte Goulding]

> On 5 May 2016, at 7:23 AM, JB  wrote:
> 
> Anyone know how to make xCode 7 externals work
> with Revolution? The latest version of xCode it will
> take is 2.4 and I do not have that on my current Mac.
> Or is there a way to install the older version on a mac
> with El Capitan?

I think you need to clarify what you are trying to do with which versions of 
what in order for someone to help you here. Xcode 2.4 definitely won’t work on 
El Capitan.

Cheers

Monte
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[JB]

Anyone know how to make xCode 7 externals work
with Revolution?  The latest version of xCode it will
take is 2.4 and I do not have that on my current Mac.
Or is there a way to install the older version on a mac
with El Capitan?


JB



> On May 4, 2016, at 1:37 PM, Paul Dupuis  wrote:
> 
> On 5/4/2016 4:12 PM, JB wrote:
>> A number of years ago I installed a external
>> using Trevor’s info but this is good too.
>> proper code to access the embeded binary;
>> I downloaded some info from Apple on how
>> to install binaries but if I do install them right
>> I need to know how to call them.  If I figure
>> how to call a few of the binaries it would open
>> the door for the others.
> 
> Once you have installed XPDF per:
> http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/6347-how-to-install-3rd-party-externals-for-use-in-the-ide-and-standalone-builder
> 
> The documentation on how to use it is at a button at the bottom of this
> page: https://livecode.com/products/livecode-platform/pdf-viewer/
> 
> 
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[JB]

That sounds like exactly
what I need.

Thank you!

JB



> On May 4, 2016, at 1:37 PM, Paul Dupuis  wrote:
> 
> On 5/4/2016 4:12 PM, JB wrote:
>> A number of years ago I installed a external
>> using Trevor’s info but this is good too.
>> proper code to access the embeded binary;
>> I downloaded some info from Apple on how
>> to install binaries but if I do install them right
>> I need to know how to call them.  If I figure
>> how to call a few of the binaries it would open
>> the door for the others.
> 
> Once you have installed XPDF per:
> http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/6347-how-to-install-3rd-party-externals-for-use-in-the-ide-and-standalone-builder
> 
> The documentation on how to use it is at a button at the bottom of this
> page: https://livecode.com/products/livecode-platform/pdf-viewer/
> 
> 
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Paul Dupuis]

On 5/4/2016 4:12 PM, JB wrote:
> A number of years ago I installed a external
> using Trevor’s info but this is good too.
> proper code to access the embeded binary;
> I downloaded some info from Apple on how
> to install binaries but if I do install them right
> I need to know how to call them.  If I figure
> how to call a few of the binaries it would open
> the door for the others.

Once you have installed XPDF per:
http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/6347-how-to-install-3rd-party-externals-for-use-in-the-ide-and-standalone-builder

The documentation on how to use it is at a button at the bottom of this
page: https://livecode.com/products/livecode-platform/pdf-viewer/


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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[JB]

A number of years ago I installed a external
using Trevor’s info but this is good too.
proper code to access the embeded binary;
I downloaded some info from Apple on how
to install binaries but if I do install them right
I need to know how to call them.  If I figure
how to call a few of the binaries it would open
the door for the others.

JB



What I really meant was installing binaries
in the xCode project and then writing the

> On May 4, 2016, at 12:42 PM, Paul Dupuis  wrote:
> 
> On 5/4/2016 3:38 PM, JB wrote:
>> I just downloaded the mac version of
>> XPDF as binaries.  It looks like they
>> would be easier to install than code
>> files but I have never embedded any
>> binaries before and do not know the
>> correct method to call them.  It would
>> be nice to make at least a basic pdf
>> reader external and then it can be
>> improved.  It would be a good lesson.
>> 
>> JB
>> 
> http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/6347-how-to-install-3rd-party-externals-for-use-in-the-ide-and-standalone-builder
> 
> 
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[JB]

Thank you.

JB


> On May 4, 2016, at 12:42 PM, Paul Dupuis  wrote:
> 
> On 5/4/2016 3:38 PM, JB wrote:
>> I just downloaded the mac version of
>> XPDF as binaries.  It looks like they
>> would be easier to install than code
>> files but I have never embedded any
>> binaries before and do not know the
>> correct method to call them.  It would
>> be nice to make at least a basic pdf
>> reader external and then it can be
>> improved.  It would be a good lesson.
>> 
>> JB
>> 
> http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/6347-how-to-install-3rd-party-externals-for-use-in-the-ide-and-standalone-builder
> 
> 
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Paul Dupuis]

On 5/4/2016 3:38 PM, JB wrote:
> I just downloaded the mac version of
> XPDF as binaries.  It looks like they
> would be easier to install than code
> files but I have never embedded any
> binaries before and do not know the
> correct method to call them.  It would
> be nice to make at least a basic pdf
> reader external and then it can be
> improved.  It would be a good lesson.
>
> JB
>
http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/6347-how-to-install-3rd-party-externals-for-use-in-the-ide-and-standalone-builder


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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[JB]

I just downloaded the mac version of
XPDF as binaries.  It looks like they
would be easier to install than code
files but I have never embedded any
binaries before and do not know the
correct method to call them.  It would
be nice to make at least a basic pdf
reader external and then it can be
improved.  It would be a good lesson.

JB



> On May 4, 2016, at 10:28 AM, Paul Dupuis  wrote:
> 
> On 5/4/2016 12:13 PM, RM wrote:
>> I would suppose the ideal thing would be both something that allows
>> one to render a PDF document,
>> and extract all or part of an embedded text layer (if one exists in
>> the original PDF).
> 
> The XPDF external from LiveCode for OSX and Win is based on Google's
> PDFium library. I can say this because I know something about the
> details of XPDF. Researchware (my company) development XPDF and recently
> transferred the rights to LiveCode.
> 
> Richard is correct in that the XPDF external not only opens and displays
> a PDF, but allows zooming, navigation, layout, hyperlinks, selection of
> text (for PDFs with editable text) or any potion of any page as an image
> selection, and allows you to extract text or images. It also supports
> password protected PDFs and more. Therefore, if ALL you want is just to
> display pages from a PDF it is certainly more than you may need. The
> same could be said about the feature set of LiveCode itself.
> 
> Richmond just showed that some people want more - in his case,
> extraction of all of part of the text. If you ONLY want to do that under
> script control, then that would be an incremental effort over just
> displaying a PDF.
> 
> If you want the USER to be able to select text (or images), then that is
> a significant chunk of work beyond just displaying a PDF as the PDFium
> library contains NO APIs for user selection and that must be original
> code added by the external. A large amount of effort went into making
> sure user selection of text was as good as Adobe or Preview or Foxit's
> PDF viewers, which was definitely not as easy as one might expect (or hope)!
> 
> I can tell you that a LOT of developer time (i.e money) went into the
> creation, QA testing, and refinement of XPDF.
> 
> Obviously, since Google PDFium is open source, anyone can create an
> alternative to XPDF, perhaps an even better version. If people want to
> build one, I encourage it. A competitive market of LiveCode PDF widgets
> just gives me more choice for my company's PDF needs ;-) However,  I
> offer the caution of experience that there are a lot more little
> "gotchas" in working with PDFium that anyone may realize, even after
> reading the APIs, and making another from scratch may be much more work
> than people might expect.
> 
> I think those interested in PDF might be better off continuing to lobby
> for LiveCode to offer XPDF as an add-on (like so many other excellent LC
> add-ons from Chartmaker to Wordlib to RRP Spell) for a appropriate
> price. It seems only logical that eventually they would convert it to an
> LC8 Widget as well.
> 
> 
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Robert Mann]

>> That lengthy thread explored possible ways to attempt to circumvent 
LiveCode Community's downstream GPL requirements.  

That exploration was an attempt to understand and clarify some tricky issues
in the new FOSS licensing situation.

Some members who participated to that effort of clarification, might not
appreciate that kind of moral interpretaion !

Particularly today, being a special LC8 happy day! Let's celebrate rather
than tance.

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--
View this message in context: 
http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Revenue-and-the-Open-Source-edition-tp4704079p4704253.html
Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Richard Gaskin]

Robert Mann wrote:

> In a former, not so old, enormous thread dealing with the FOSS
> license and trying to understand what it meant in practice, one
> of the conclusion was that *only Livecode can dual license*.
> Nobody else can do that. And Kevin Miller really pushed hard on
> that point.

That lengthy thread explored possible ways to attempt to circumvent 
LiveCode Community's downstream GPL requirements.  Kevin's comments were 
about attempting to use the GPL version to make non-GPL works.


My proposal here was for a possible dual-license option for those with 
an appropriate license.  Proprietary works can be created with the 
proprietary-licensed editions of LiveCode.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Mark Wilcox]

> In a former, not so old, enormous thread dealing with the FOSS license
> and
> trying to understand what it meant in practice, one of the conclusion was
> that *only Livecode can dual license*. Nobody else can do that. And Kevin
> Miller really pushed hard on that point.

Only Livecode can dual license the engine. I think they actually
encourage external/widget/library builders to also dual license.

The argument Livecode have been making is that someone with a community
license only cannot dual license - that basically anything you make with
or for Livecode is a derivative work and you need a commercial license
of some kind if you want to distribute it under anything other than the
GPL. I think they're wrong in this both legally and from a community
building perspective but it's not completely black and white.

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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[RM]

I don't quite know where you got that idea from.

I would be very much surprised if Kevin Miller had actually stated that; 
it might
be that you concluded that on the basis of something he said; which is 
not the

same thing at all.

I would be extremely interested if you could post a link to that thread.

There are plenty of software packages offered under a variety of licences:
yesterday I downloaded a version of Draftsight which let me have a copy for
personal use for nothing, but charges architects lots of money.

Richmond.

On 4.05.2016 20:14, Robert Mann wrote:

Just a precision though :

In a former, not so old, enormous thread dealing with the FOSS license and
trying to understand what it meant in practice, one of the conclusion was
that *only Livecode can dual license*. Nobody else can do that. And Kevin
Miller really pushed hard on that point.





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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Robert Mann]

Just a precision though : 

In a former, not so old, enormous thread dealing with the FOSS license and
trying to understand what it meant in practice, one of the conclusion was
that *only Livecode can dual license*. Nobody else can do that. And Kevin
Miller really pushed hard on that point.





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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[Paul Dupuis]

On 5/4/2016 12:13 PM, RM wrote:
> I would suppose the ideal thing would be both something that allows
> one to render a PDF document,
> and extract all or part of an embedded text layer (if one exists in
> the original PDF).

The XPDF external from LiveCode for OSX and Win is based on Google's
PDFium library. I can say this because I know something about the
details of XPDF. Researchware (my company) development XPDF and recently
transferred the rights to LiveCode.

Richard is correct in that the XPDF external not only opens and displays
a PDF, but allows zooming, navigation, layout, hyperlinks, selection of
text (for PDFs with editable text) or any potion of any page as an image
selection, and allows you to extract text or images. It also supports
password protected PDFs and more. Therefore, if ALL you want is just to
display pages from a PDF it is certainly more than you may need. The
same could be said about the feature set of LiveCode itself.

Richmond just showed that some people want more - in his case,
extraction of all of part of the text. If you ONLY want to do that under
script control, then that would be an incremental effort over just
displaying a PDF.

If you want the USER to be able to select text (or images), then that is
a significant chunk of work beyond just displaying a PDF as the PDFium
library contains NO APIs for user selection and that must be original
code added by the external. A large amount of effort went into making
sure user selection of text was as good as Adobe or Preview or Foxit's
PDF viewers, which was definitely not as easy as one might expect (or hope)!

I can tell you that a LOT of developer time (i.e money) went into the
creation, QA testing, and refinement of XPDF.

Obviously, since Google PDFium is open source, anyone can create an
alternative to XPDF, perhaps an even better version. If people want to
build one, I encourage it. A competitive market of LiveCode PDF widgets
just gives me more choice for my company's PDF needs ;-) However,  I
offer the caution of experience that there are a lot more little
"gotchas" in working with PDFium that anyone may realize, even after
reading the APIs, and making another from scratch may be much more work
than people might expect.

I think those interested in PDF might be better off continuing to lobby
for LiveCode to offer XPDF as an add-on (like so many other excellent LC
add-ons from Chartmaker to Wordlib to RRP Spell) for a appropriate
price. It seems only logical that eventually they would convert it to an
LC8 Widget as well.


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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[JB]

What about the code Money has from Adobe?
Can that be put in a external?  It would be nice
to start adding externals and something like
that as open source might be the thing to show
people how to write externals.

I know a little Xcode, C and objective-C and
am willing to learn by helping but a person
who can do it probably does not need help.

JB

















'



> On May 4, 2016, at 9:13 AM, RM  wrote:
> 
> I would suppose the ideal thing would be both something that allows one to 
> render a PDF document,
> and extract all or part of an embedded text layer (if one exists in the 
> original PDF).
> 
> Richmond.
> 
> On 4.05.2016 17:22, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> Tim Bleiler wrote:
>> 
>> > The Livecode PDF viewer is an example of something that might do
>> > well as a separate option.
>> 
>> It might.
>> 
>> It would be helpful if more folks read the specs for the PDF external 
>> LiveCode is including with their Business Edition.  It's very specialized, 
>> with extensive features for getting and setting selections far beyond the 
>> needs of most projects.
>> 
>> What I'm hearing from most Indy and Community devs is that they merely want 
>> to render a PDF within LiveCode.
>> 
>> Given the PDFium library available for that, and that LiveCode Builder 
>> supports binary APIs such as those in that library, if this is a lucrative 
>> opportunity it would seem worth pursuing for those who want it.
>> 
>> The developer could sell it as proprietary, or even dual-license it with a 
>> GPL version.
>> 
>> Anyone sufficiently convinced of the business opportunity here to take this 
>> on?
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: Community PDF Project (was Revenue and the Open Source edition)

[RM]

I would suppose the ideal thing would be both something that allows one 
to render a PDF document,
and extract all or part of an embedded text layer (if one exists in the 
original PDF).


Richmond.

On 4.05.2016 17:22, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Tim Bleiler wrote:

> The Livecode PDF viewer is an example of something that might do
> well as a separate option.

It might.

It would be helpful if more folks read the specs for the PDF external 
LiveCode is including with their Business Edition.  It's very 
specialized, with extensive features for getting and setting 
selections far beyond the needs of most projects.


What I'm hearing from most Indy and Community devs is that they merely 
want to render a PDF within LiveCode.


Given the PDFium library available for that, and that LiveCode Builder 
supports binary APIs such as those in that library, if this is a 
lucrative opportunity it would seem worth pursuing for those who want it.


The developer could sell it as proprietary, or even dual-license it 
with a GPL version.


Anyone sufficiently convinced of the business opportunity here to take 
this on?





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