Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-12 Thread Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode

User Guide: I tell myself periodically to read the whole thing  (be never 
do…tinyDictionary has me hooked) … here it is, as you says, clearly stated on 
page 105


If background behavior is false, the group is in the message path for all 
controls it owns, but is not in the

message path of any other object.

If the background behavior is true, the group is also in the message path for 
any cards it is placed on. If

you send a message to a card control, the message passes through the control, 
then the card, then

any background groups on the card in order of number, then the stack.

Since a group owns any controls that are part of the group, if you send a 
message to a control within a

group, the group is in the message path for its own controls, regardless of 
whether it’s background

behavior is true or false. If a group has already received a message because it 
was originally sent to one

of the controls in the group, the message is not sent through the group again 
after the card has

handled it.

Tip: If you want a handler in a group's script to affect only the objects in 
the group, place

the following statement at the beginning of the handler:

if the owner of the target is not me then pass message.

This filters out any objects that are not part of the group.


I'm having fun there, but seriously, the User Guide has been pretty good
in recent years. I'm often surprised at how the answers to many forum
questions are covered well in it, yet when I ask about it most people
don't even notice that it's there, the second-from-the-top item in LC's
Help menu.
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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-11 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode

On 12/10/19 9:20 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

The Message Path discussion starts on p 101, with a pretty good diagram 
on p 102, including a distinction between Groups and Backgrounds.


OMG - there's documentation?  Admittedly I haven't looked at the User 
Guide in quite a while.
That is indeed a fair diagram of the message path, although yours is 
more up-to-date by including behaviors.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-11 Thread Brian Milby via use-livecode
The PDF files are generated from .md files.  The guides are split between
two locations:
https://github.com/livecode/livecode/tree/develop/docs/guides
https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/tree/develop/Documentation/guides

Thanks,
Brian

On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 12:21 AM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> PS: I was going to include a link to the Github repo for anyone who
> might want to help with errata or enhancements to the docs, but I
> couldn't find the PDF sources in the /docs folder.  What am I missing?
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   
>   ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-11 Thread Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Richard, I'm not sure you were posting this to the right forum. You see, this 
is the Livecode forum. We don't need no stinking User Guides! :-)

Bob S


> On Dec 10, 2019, at 21:20 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Paul Dupuis wrote:
> > Richard Gaskin, at one point, had a really excellent diagram of the
> > LiveCode message hierarchy. If he sees this post and still has it
> > perhaps he could post a link to it.
> 
> Still there:
> https://www.fourthworld.com/embassy/articles/revolution_message_path.html
> 
> Since I made that back in the day (the file name hints at its age), I've 
> discovered a pretty great resource mysteriously unknown in our community, but 
> surprisingly comprehensive and includes a nearly identical diagram.
> 
> It has more than 650 pages of comprehensive info on using LiveCode, broken 
> down into well organized sections and subsections, often with illustrations 
> and screen shots, all put together in a well-indexed PDF.
> 
> They call it "LiveCode User Guide", and it's been secretly bundled with every 
> release of LiveCode for several years. :)
> 
> I'm having fun there, but seriously, the User Guide has been pretty good in 
> recent years. I'm often surprised at how the answers to many forum questions 
> are covered well in it, yet when I ask about it most people don't even notice 
> that it's there, the second-from-the-top item in LC's Help menu.
> 
> The Message Path discussion starts on p 101, with a pretty good diagram on p 
> 102, including a distinction between Groups and Backgrounds.
> 
> In fact, p 105 includes a discussion of that distinction far more concise yet 
> no less helpful than my longish post here the other day.
> 
> 
> PS: I was going to include a link to the Github repo for anyone who might 
> want to help with errata or enhancements to the docs, but I couldn't find the 
> PDF sources in the /docs folder.  What am I missing?
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin


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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-10 Thread Richard Gaskin via use-livecode

Paul Dupuis wrote:
> Richard Gaskin, at one point, had a really excellent diagram of the
> LiveCode message hierarchy. If he sees this post and still has it
> perhaps he could post a link to it.

Still there:
https://www.fourthworld.com/embassy/articles/revolution_message_path.html

Since I made that back in the day (the file name hints at its age), I've 
discovered a pretty great resource mysteriously unknown in our 
community, but surprisingly comprehensive and includes a nearly 
identical diagram.


It has more than 650 pages of comprehensive info on using LiveCode, 
broken down into well organized sections and subsections, often with 
illustrations and screen shots, all put together in a well-indexed PDF.


They call it "LiveCode User Guide", and it's been secretly bundled with 
every release of LiveCode for several years. :)


I'm having fun there, but seriously, the User Guide has been pretty good 
in recent years. I'm often surprised at how the answers to many forum 
questions are covered well in it, yet when I ask about it most people 
don't even notice that it's there, the second-from-the-top item in LC's 
Help menu.


The Message Path discussion starts on p 101, with a pretty good diagram 
on p 102, including a distinction between Groups and Backgrounds.


In fact, p 105 includes a discussion of that distinction far more 
concise yet no less helpful than my longish post here the other day.



PS: I was going to include a link to the Github repo for anyone who 
might want to help with errata or enhancements to the docs, but I 
couldn't find the PDF sources in the /docs folder.  What am I missing?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-10 Thread Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode
Just for reference, Dar Scott wrote a Primer in Message Mechanics:
http://pages.swcp.com/dsc/revstacks.html

Al

on Tue, 10 Dec 2019, Paul Dupuis wrote:
[snip]
Richard Gaskin, at one point, had a really excellent diagram of the
LiveCode message hierarchy. If he sees this post and still has it
perhaps he could post a link to it.
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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-10 Thread Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode
Mark Waddington gave the answer if need.

I really want "shared groups" and not "backgroundGroups"

Then the scripts are encapsulated. I turned off backgroundBehavior on all 
groups.

A click on top layer button (no script) now  registers in the stack script with 
its target.

I tried it, Yay! After 25 years, still learning….





So if I have a button X with a mouseDown handler in a Group Y also with
a mouseDown handler and in my card script (or stack script) also have a
mouseDown handler
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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-10 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode

On 12/10/19 11:39 AM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:

So then to trap "the target" in the stack script, require putting
   pass mousedown (or mouseWhatever)
in all the background groups (all of which contain their our MouseDown)

Correct?


Only if you want to handle the mouseUp message *first* in the background 
group script and *then* in the stack script.




remember the use case:
we do not want and script in *any* button or top object that receives a click or touch.  
The card becomes a pure "view" object.


Q: Why do you have a background group? And mouseUp handlers in it? This 
will catch any mouseUp messages that aren't already captured by controls 
on the card, and in addition will catch mouseUp messages if you click on 
the card itself.


Why not just have the mouseUp handler in the stack script?

Or put the buttons into their own (not background) group and have the 
mouseUp handler there?


Or have a behavior script for the buttons or group that handles the 
mouseUp messages?


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-10 Thread Paul Dupuis via use-livecode
So if I have a button X with a mouseDown handler in a Group Y also with 
a mouseDown handler and in my card script (or stack script) also have a 
mouseDown handler


If I click on button X and I only want button X to handle the mouseDown, 
I do not 'pass mouseDown' in the button X mouseDown handler


If I click on button X and I also want another mouseDown handler in the 
message path - in addition to the one in button X - to do something in 
response, then I need to 'pass mouseDown' in the button script. In this 
example, a pass mouseDown in the button mouseDown handler passes the 
message to the group that contains the button. If that group's mouseDown 
handler also does a pass mouseDown, then the card or stack gets the 
mouseDown as well. If they do not pass the message its stops there.


Richard Gaskin, at one point, had a really excellent diagram of the 
LiveCode message hierarchy. If he sees this post and still has it 
perhaps he could post a link to it.



On 12/10/2019 2:39 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:

So then to trap "the target" in the stack script, require putting
   pass mousedown (or mouseWhatever)
in all the background groups (all of which contain their our MouseDown)

Correct?

remember the use case:
we do not want and script in *any* button or top object that receives a click or touch.  
The card becomes a pure "view" object.

@paul

If you have groups where you need to pass a mouseDown (or mosueWhatever)
mesage to the card or stack, just add a behavior to the group for a
script that contain handlers like

on mouseDown
   pass mouseDown
end mouseDown

on mouseUp
   pass mouseUp
end mouseUp

Although if there is no handler for the mouse event it should pass to
the card and then the stack and then any library or backscripts and then
the engine.

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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-10 Thread Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode
@ Mark Waddington

That's it! Thank you!

If you turn 'background behavior' off, then your shared group should no
longer receive messages after the card does.
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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-10 Thread Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode
So then to trap "the target" in the stack script, require putting
  pass mousedown (or mouseWhatever)
in all the background groups (all of which contain their our MouseDown)

Correct?

remember the use case:
we do not want and script in *any* button or top object that receives a click 
or touch.  The card becomes a pure "view" object.

@paul

If you have groups where you need to pass a mouseDown (or mosueWhatever)
mesage to the card or stack, just add a behavior to the group for a
script that contain handlers like

on mouseDown
  pass mouseDown
end mouseDown

on mouseUp
  pass mouseUp
end mouseUp

Although if there is no handler for the mouse event it should pass to
the card and then the stack and then any library or backscripts and then
the engine.

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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-09 Thread Richard Gaskin via use-livecode

Mark Wieder wrote:
> The syntax for describing the message path gets
> pretty gnarly.

It gets somewhat simpler when we consider the origins of the object 
model, though admittedly this is help more for us ol' timers than 
newcomers.


For newcomers I just don't mention backgrounds at all unless there's a 
specific need for it, and as long as I do that the message path is 
pretty easily learned,



HISTORY
---

HC didn't have groups, and its background was a layer that filled the 
entire card.  For what it was, its message path was reasonable 
straightforward once you learned what the background layer is and how to 
use it.


MC had groups, far more flexible than backgrounds, and their place in 
the message path is consistent with everything else: starting at the 
control, moving on to containers the control is within.


MC's groups were super-awesome for many of us HC fans who'd dreamed of 
such a feature for years, BUT -


The MC object model had no background layer, so importing HC stacks 
would be a non-starter.


So Dr. Raney adapted the group object so that it could also serve the 
role of an HC background.  Once a group is made sharable, it acts like 
an HC group.


Sounds good, but -

It's counter to the rest of the MC object model's message path.

So, after MC became LC, Mark Waddingham explored ways to both retain the 
compatibility with HC while respecting that LC is inherently a different 
model, and split the way shared groups are handled into two properties:


sharedBehavior: allows a group to be automatically copied to new cards, 
retaining the simplicity of the object model in the message path, in 
which messages flow from the control through its containers in visual 
order (group then card then stack).


backgroundBehavior: emulates HC by altering the position of the object 
in the message path per HC's convention for backgrounds (card then 
background then stack).



CURRENT USAGE
-

As long as we think of backgroundBehavior as a sort of HC compatibility 
mechanism, distinguishing its affect on the message path becomes easier.


For newcomers, I don't even mention backgroundBehavior at all, 
introducing them only to sharedBehavior.  With this orientation I find 
they enjoy the benefits of shared groups and they never get confused.


--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Systems

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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-09 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode

On 12/9/19 11:13 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote:


I think the correct (and nit-picky) statement is ...

Mark Weider says "A background group will definitely get the message 
before the stack
script does. Also any script being used as a behavior **for the 
background group**."


**and also a behavior script for the object being clicked on**



Hope I'm not misconstruing it, and that's not making everything more 
confusing ...


Thanks for clarifying. The syntax for describing the message path gets 
pretty gnarly.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-09 Thread Alex Tweedly via use-livecode

On 12/9/19 6:30 AM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:

In this use case,

- the button "starWidget"  is a "standalone" button on an independent 
layer on the card  and not a part of any group
-- @Jacque... the groups that are trapping the mouseup I are 
background groups using on various card.
  Mark Weider says "A background group will definitely get the 
message before the stack

script does. Also any script being used as a behavior."

BR: is this "really" expected behavior? gosh, I hope not! 
"Encapsulation"would mean


BR - are you maybe reading more into it than Mark meant.

I think the correct (and nit-picky) statement is ...

Mark Weider says "A background group will definitely get the message 
before the stack
script does. Also any script being used as a behavior **for the 
background group**."


Hope I'm not misconstruing it, and that's not making everything more 
confusing ...


Alex.

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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-09 Thread Mark Waddingham via use-livecode

On 2019-12-09 14:30, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:

-- background groups: "encapsulated" only receive mouse/touch events
from objects that are contain in "itself" --  group
-- behaviors: "encapsulated": only receive mouse events for the object
or group the behavior is assigned to.

Isn't this a bug?  Otherwise, "We have chaos on the Highway 666, total
car wreck on the Message Path"


No - background groups have always worked this way (and behaviors work 
the way you'd expect, they receive events which the object they are 
attached to doesn't handle).


All background groups placed on a card appear after the card in the 
message path.


There are two settings you can apply to a group - 'Shared Group' and 
'Background behavior'.


The 'Shared Group' setting means it can be placed on more than one card.

The 'Background Behavior' setting means it behaves like a background - 
rather than a normal group.


If you turn 'background behavior' off, then your shared group should no 
longer receive messages after the card does.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-09 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode

On 12/9/19 6:30 AM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:

In this use case,

- the button "starWidget"  is a "standalone" button on an independent layer on 
the card  and not a part of any group
-- @Jacque... the groups that are trapping the mouseup I are background groups 
using on various card.
  
Mark Weider says "A background group will definitely get the message before the stack

script does. Also any script being used as a behavior."

BR: is this "really" expected behavior? gosh, I hope not! "Encapsulation"would 
mean


If you set a group to have background behavior then it sits above the 
stack layer in the message path (or below, depending on how you view the 
layers). At any rate, messages will hit the background group before the 
stack script sees them. That's the way it is, the way it has always 
been, and the way the path was designed from the start. If you want 
something different you need to rethink your stack design.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-09 Thread Paul Dupuis via use-livecode
I use groups in use cases where I want a on mouseDown script in the 
group to respond to any mouse click anywhere in the rect of the group, 
so, no, groups should not ONLY respond to mouse messages passed though 
object contained in the group



If you have groups where you need to pass a mouseDown (or mosueWhatever) 
mesage to the card or stack, just add a behavior to the group for a 
script that contain handlers like


on mouseDown
  pass mouseDown
end mouseDown

on mouseUp
  pass mouseUp
end mouseUp

Although if there is no handler for the mouse event it should pass to 
the card and then the stack and then any library or backscripts and then 
the engine.


 On 12/9/2019 9:30 AM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:

In this use case,

- the button "starWidget"  is a "standalone" button on an independent layer on 
the card  and not a part of any group
-- @Jacque... the groups that are trapping the mouseup I are background groups 
using on various card.
  
Mark Weider says "A background group will definitely get the message before the stack

script does. Also any script being used as a behavior."

BR: is this "really" expected behavior? gosh, I hope not! "Encapsulation"would 
mean

-- background groups: "encapsulated" only receive mouse/touch events from objects that 
are contain in "itself" --  group
-- behaviors: "encapsulated": only receive mouse events for the object or group 
the behavior is assigned to.

Isn't this a bug?  Otherwise, "We have chaos on the Highway 666, total car wreck on 
the Message Path"

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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-09 Thread Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode
In this use case, 

- the button "starWidget"  is a "standalone" button on an independent layer on 
the card  and not a part of any group
-- @Jacque... the groups that are trapping the mouseup I are background groups 
using on various card.
 
Mark Weider says "A background group will definitely get the message before the 
stack 
script does. Also any script being used as a behavior."

BR: is this "really" expected behavior? gosh, I hope not! "Encapsulation"would 
mean

-- background groups: "encapsulated" only receive mouse/touch events from 
objects that are contain in "itself" --  group 
-- behaviors: "encapsulated": only receive mouse events for the object or group 
the behavior is assigned to.

Isn't this a bug?  Otherwise, "We have chaos on the Highway 666, total car 
wreck on the Message Path"

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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-08 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode

On 12/8/19 4:04 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
I take that back, the card group shouldn't get the message. Sounds like 
something else is wrong.


A background group will definitely get the message before the stack 
script does. Also any script being used as a behavior.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-08 Thread J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
I take that back, the card group shouldn't get the message. Sounds like 
something else is wrong.



On 12/8/19 5:24 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
Is the group that receives the mouseUp a card group or a background 
group? If I remember right, messages go from the button, to all card 
groups, then to the card, then all background groups, then to the stack.


So if it's a card group, it will get the message before the stack does.


On 12/8/19 1:55 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:

I think this a old problem that is re-surfacing. Or else it is known….

9.6 dp1, in the message path different independent groups are not 
encapsulated.


button "starWidget"
-- has no script
-- is not a part of any group

Stack script:

on mouseup
   put the short name of the target
   put the short name of the target into tTarget
   switch tTarget
    case(s) # various button names
    # consolidate all UI actions that not part of a group
    # to the stack script
   end switch
end mouseup

# the card are several groups,
# each with its own mouse handlers

# I click on button "starWidget"
-- nothing happens…hmm, no errors either…
# start profiling scripts (new trick I found)
# click on button "starWidget"
# stop profiling scripts:
   # Voila! the mouseup was trapped by one the other groups, 
as if they were in the message path.


Is there any way around this? Meanwhile I have to plug into every 
button explicit handlers. Tedious, make debugging painful…


BR







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--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-08 Thread J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
Is the group that receives the mouseUp a card group or a background 
group? If I remember right, messages go from the button, to all card 
groups, then to the card, then all background groups, then to the stack.


So if it's a card group, it will get the message before the stack does.


On 12/8/19 1:55 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:

I think this a old problem that is re-surfacing. Or else it is known….

9.6 dp1, in the message path different independent groups are not encapsulated.

button "starWidget"
-- has no script
-- is not a part of any group

Stack script:

on mouseup
   put the short name of the target
   put the short name of the target into tTarget
   switch tTarget
case(s) # various button names
# consolidate all UI actions that not part of a group
# to the stack script
   end switch
end mouseup

# the card are several groups,
# each with its own mouse handlers

# I click on button "starWidget"
-- nothing happens…hmm, no errors either…
# start profiling scripts (new trick I found)
# click on button "starWidget"
# stop profiling scripts:
   # Voila! the mouseup was trapped by one the other groups, as if they 
were in the message path.

Is there any way around this? Meanwhile I have to plug into every button 
explicit handlers. Tedious, make debugging painful…

BR







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Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup

2019-12-08 Thread dunbarx--- via use-livecode
Hi.
It is hard for me to understand without more info about the case statements. 
But when you have this:
# I click on button "starWidget"
-- nothing happens…hmm, no errors either…
Do you really mean nothing, not even that the:
   put the short name of the target

does not fire?
Craig

-Original Message-
From: Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode 

To: How LiveCode 
Cc: Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami 
Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2019 2:56 pm
Subject: Groups in the message path: Trapping Mouseup 

I think this a old problem that is re-surfacing. Or else it is known….

9.6 dp1, in the message path different independent groups are not encapsulated.

button "starWidget"
-- has no script
-- is not a part of any group

Stack script:

on mouseup
          put the short name of the target
          put the short name of the target into tTarget
          switch tTarget
                  case(s) # various button names
                  # consolidate all UI actions that not part of a group
                  # to the stack script
          end switch
end mouseup

# the card are several groups,
# each with its own mouse handlers

# I click on button "starWidget"
-- nothing happens…hmm, no errors either…
# start profiling scripts (new trick I found)
# click on button "starWidget"
# stop profiling scripts:
          # Voila! the mouseup was trapped by one the other groups, as if they 
were in the message path.

Is there any way around this? Meanwhile I have to plug into every button 
explicit handlers. Tedious, make debugging painful…

BR







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