Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles
> Yes, I see what you mean. Personally, I think this is unnecessarily > complex and difficult to understand. It is not the Writer Guide. It is > these styles: That's my very impression too. The guide is clear in what it states, but the styles obfuscate the message. > What seems strange is that the Indent & Spacing for Numbering 1 and > Numbering 1 Cont. are identical. What was the reason for this? I also Not exactly, they differ in the first line indent setting. Numbering 1 looks like (except for the numbering itself): 1. blah blah blah <--- first line blah blah blah <--- following lines Instead Numbering 1 Cont looks like: blah blah blah <--- first line blah blah blah <--- following lines So, regarding the indentation, the implication seems to be: Numbering 1 Start (Numbering 1 Numbering 1 Cont * ) * . . . Numbering 1 End Regards -- Carlos > >> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Dan Lewis wrote: >> > On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 23:45 -0300, Carlos Pita wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I find this description in the documentation very misleading: >> >> >> >> """ >> >> Each of the list styles predefined in Writer has four associated >> >> paragraph styles. For example, the >> >> Numbering 1 list style is associated with four paragraph styles: >> >> Numbering 1 >> >> Numbering 1 Cont. >> >> Numbering 1 End >> >> Numbering 1 Start >> >> """ >> >> >> >> In what sense list style "Numbering 1" is related to paragraph styles >> >> "Numbering 1 *"? What one can see is that the N in paragraph styles >> >> "Numbering N *" is related to indentation level and not intended for >> >> working in tandem with the list style "Numbering N". One can use >> >> paragraph style "Numbering 1" with any of the list styles, because >> >> concerns seem to be completely orthogonal. >> >> >> >> Can you clarify the relationship between paragraph styles "Numbering N >> >> *" and list style "Numbering N"? >> >> >> >> What scenarios are paragraph styles "Numbering N *" and "List N *" >> >> intended for? >> >> >> >> Thank you a lot >> >> -- >> >> Carlos >> > >> >> > documentation did you mean? >> > I think the answer you are seeking is found in the Styles and >> > Formating window. >> > Use the F11 key to open it. There are several icons at the top; the >> > one of the left (Paragraph styles) is the one you want. At the bottom of >> > the window is a drop down list with Automatic selected by Default >> > (unless you have changed it). Select "All Styles". In that list you will >> > find the Numbering N * paragraph styles. Right click anyone of them and >> > select Modify from the context menu (it is a pop up window.) Click the >> > "Outline & Numbering" tab. When you want to add a numbering or bullet >> > style to your paragraph style, you select it here. >> > The paragraph style dictates the properties of the paragraph. The >> > numbering (or list [bullet]) style dictates the numbering that appears >> > at the beginning of each paragraph. >> > >> > --Dan >> > >> > >> > -- >> > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org >> > Problems? >> > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >> > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >> > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ >> > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be >> > deleted >> > > > > > -- > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles
On Thu, 2012-05-10 at 15:34 -0300, Carlos Pita wrote: > Hi all, > > > Was this documentation in a Styles chapter of the Writer Guide > > perhaps? If so, where in this guide was it located? If not, what > > It's quoted verbatim from LibreOffice Writer Guide 3.4.x, chapter 6 or > 7 (sorry, I'm not able to access the file just right now). > > Dan, I understand how styles work, my problem is more about how > provided styles are intended to be used. What is confusing to me is > that the "Numbering N" or "List N" paragraph styles come with > increasing indentation levels, suggesting that they're intended to > somehow nest lists up to the 5th level instead of being used in a > close 1-1 relationship with corresponding list styles, as can be > inferred from the guide. > > Gary has clarified the issue. Perhaps the styles should all be > indented the same by default and just control the interline spacing > and things like that. > > Another related issue is the purpose of the "List N" vs "List N Cont" > paragraph styles. From the indentation in the styles one can infer > what follows: > > | aditional space here > First item <--- Start style > > Internal item <--- base style >Continuation of internal item<--- Cont style > > Last item<--- End style > | aditional space here > > That cont seems to be intended to follow the base style is suggested > by the default indentation of the manually formatted lists. For > example: > > 2. Iternal item > More text > > Continuation of item 2 > > The indentation provided by the Cont style is exactly the indentation > needed by "Continuation of item 2" in a manually formatted list in > order to be left aligned with the item text. But this seems misleading > again, because the guide explains that Start will be usually linked to > Cont which will be linked to End, for lists where a single style (the > base style) isn't enough. Briefly, the alternative interpretations > are: > > Start->base(->Cont)->End > > vs > > Start->Cont->End or base (for simple formatting requirements) > > I'll copy the relevant passages of the documentation for this last > issue asap, but you can see that the problem is essentially the same: > default style indentation that seems to be at odds with the usage > described by the guide, maybe because of historical reasons. > > Thanks a lot > -- > Carlos Yes, I see what you mean. Personally, I think this is unnecessarily complex and difficult to understand. It is not the Writer Guide. It is these styles: Numbering 1, Numbering 1 Cont. Numbering 1 End, and Numbering 1 Start. What seems strange is that the Indent & Spacing for Numbering 1 and Numbering 1 Cont. are identical. What was the reason for this? I also not that Numbering 1 Start has a 2 line spacing (0.42cm) above it, and Numbering 1 End has 2 line spacing (0.42) below it. That also seems to be more than needed. If your Writer Guide used ODT format instead of PDF, you would see that we use three styles instead of four: OOoNum 123 Cont., OOoNum 123 Start, and OOoNum 123 End. It has its strange point too: OOoNum 123 Start and OOoNum 123 Cont. have identical Indent & Spacing entries. Perhaps I need to read what the Writer Guide mentions about this. Chapters 6 and 7 are the Style chapters of WG. --Dan > On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Dan Lewis wrote: > > On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 23:45 -0300, Carlos Pita wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I find this description in the documentation very misleading: > >> > >> """ > >> Each of the list styles predefined in Writer has four associated > >> paragraph styles. For example, the > >> Numbering 1 list style is associated with four paragraph styles: > >> Numbering 1 > >> Numbering 1 Cont. > >> Numbering 1 End > >> Numbering 1 Start > >> """ > >> > >> In what sense list style "Numbering 1" is related to paragraph styles > >> "Numbering 1 *"? What one can see is that the N in paragraph styles > >> "Numbering N *" is related to indentation level and not intended for > >> working in tandem with the list style "Numbering N". One can use > >> paragraph style "Numbering 1" with any of the list styles, because > >> concerns seem to be completely orthogonal. > >> > >> Can you clarify the relationship between paragraph styles "Numbering N > >> *" and list style "Numbering N"? > >> > >> What scenarios are paragraph styles "Numbering N *" and "List N *" > >> intended for? > >> > >> Thank you a lot > >> -- > >> Carlos > > > > > documentation did you mean? > > I think the answer you are seeking is found in the Styles and > > Formating window. > > Use the F11 key to open it. There are several icons at the top; the > > one of the left (Paragraph styles) is the one you want. At the bottom of > > the window is a drop down list with Automatic selected by Default > > (unless you have changed it). Select "All Styles". In that list you will > > find
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles
Hi all, > Was this documentation in a Styles chapter of the Writer Guide > perhaps? If so, where in this guide was it located? If not, what It's quoted verbatim from LibreOffice Writer Guide 3.4.x, chapter 6 or 7 (sorry, I'm not able to access the file just right now). Dan, I understand how styles work, my problem is more about how provided styles are intended to be used. What is confusing to me is that the "Numbering N" or "List N" paragraph styles come with increasing indentation levels, suggesting that they're intended to somehow nest lists up to the 5th level instead of being used in a close 1-1 relationship with corresponding list styles, as can be inferred from the guide. Gary has clarified the issue. Perhaps the styles should all be indented the same by default and just control the interline spacing and things like that. Another related issue is the purpose of the "List N" vs "List N Cont" paragraph styles. From the indentation in the styles one can infer what follows: | aditional space here First item <--- Start style Internal item <--- base style Continuation of internal item<--- Cont style Last item<--- End style | aditional space here That cont seems to be intended to follow the base style is suggested by the default indentation of the manually formatted lists. For example: 2. Iternal item More text Continuation of item 2 The indentation provided by the Cont style is exactly the indentation needed by "Continuation of item 2" in a manually formatted list in order to be left aligned with the item text. But this seems misleading again, because the guide explains that Start will be usually linked to Cont which will be linked to End, for lists where a single style (the base style) isn't enough. Briefly, the alternative interpretations are: Start->base(->Cont)->End vs Start->Cont->End or base (for simple formatting requirements) I'll copy the relevant passages of the documentation for this last issue asap, but you can see that the problem is essentially the same: default style indentation that seems to be at odds with the usage described by the guide, maybe because of historical reasons. Thanks a lot -- Carlos On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Dan Lewis wrote: > On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 23:45 -0300, Carlos Pita wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I find this description in the documentation very misleading: >> >> """ >> Each of the list styles predefined in Writer has four associated >> paragraph styles. For example, the >> Numbering 1 list style is associated with four paragraph styles: >> Numbering 1 >> Numbering 1 Cont. >> Numbering 1 End >> Numbering 1 Start >> """ >> >> In what sense list style "Numbering 1" is related to paragraph styles >> "Numbering 1 *"? What one can see is that the N in paragraph styles >> "Numbering N *" is related to indentation level and not intended for >> working in tandem with the list style "Numbering N". One can use >> paragraph style "Numbering 1" with any of the list styles, because >> concerns seem to be completely orthogonal. >> >> Can you clarify the relationship between paragraph styles "Numbering N >> *" and list style "Numbering N"? >> >> What scenarios are paragraph styles "Numbering N *" and "List N *" intended >> for? >> >> Thank you a lot >> -- >> Carlos > > documentation did you mean? > I think the answer you are seeking is found in the Styles and > Formating window. > Use the F11 key to open it. There are several icons at the top; the > one of the left (Paragraph styles) is the one you want. At the bottom of > the window is a drop down list with Automatic selected by Default > (unless you have changed it). Select "All Styles". In that list you will > find the Numbering N * paragraph styles. Right click anyone of them and > select Modify from the context menu (it is a pop up window.) Click the > "Outline & Numbering" tab. When you want to add a numbering or bullet > style to your paragraph style, you select it here. > The paragraph style dictates the properties of the paragraph. The > numbering (or list [bullet]) style dictates the numbering that appears > at the beginning of each paragraph. > > --Dan > > > -- > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles
On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 23:45 -0300, Carlos Pita wrote: > Hi all, > > I find this description in the documentation very misleading: > > """ > Each of the list styles predefined in Writer has four associated > paragraph styles. For example, the > Numbering 1 list style is associated with four paragraph styles: > Numbering 1 > Numbering 1 Cont. > Numbering 1 End > Numbering 1 Start > """ > > In what sense list style "Numbering 1" is related to paragraph styles > "Numbering 1 *"? What one can see is that the N in paragraph styles > "Numbering N *" is related to indentation level and not intended for > working in tandem with the list style "Numbering N". One can use > paragraph style "Numbering 1" with any of the list styles, because > concerns seem to be completely orthogonal. > > Can you clarify the relationship between paragraph styles "Numbering N > *" and list style "Numbering N"? > > What scenarios are paragraph styles "Numbering N *" and "List N *" intended > for? > > Thank you a lot > -- > Carlos Was this documentation in a Styles chapter of the Writer Guide perhaps? If so, where in this guide was it located? If not, what documentation did you mean? I think the answer you are seeking is found in the Styles and Formating window. Use the F11 key to open it. There are several icons at the top; the one of the left (Paragraph styles) is the one you want. At the bottom of the window is a drop down list with Automatic selected by Default (unless you have changed it). Select "All Styles". In that list you will find the Numbering N * paragraph styles. Right click anyone of them and select Modify from the context menu (it is a pop up window.) Click the "Outline & Numbering" tab. When you want to add a numbering or bullet style to your paragraph style, you select it here. The paragraph style dictates the properties of the paragraph. The numbering (or list [bullet]) style dictates the numbering that appears at the beginning of each paragraph. --Dan -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles
--- On Thu, 10/5/12, Gary Schnabl wrote: From: Gary Schnabl Subject: Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles To: documentat...@global.libreoffice.org Date: Thursday, 10 May, 2012, 9:28 These styles make up the set of paragraph styles for ordered and unordered lists that date way back to version 1.x, but which never were really explained much outside of the OOo/LO user guides. Also, the factory-default formatting for these styles is not in general agreement throughout the Ns (worse in OOo than in LO). They appear to be much unlike the human appendix--somewhat useless in its original form but which can be made useful. I assume that the N was originally meant to refer to the level of nesting of lists, which itself would almost always use indentation. Because their factory-default formatting is somewhat inconsistent, their parameters should be reformatted by the users (or template designers) in order to be made to work better . Gary On 5/10/2012 4:01 AM, Tom Davies wrote: > Hi :) > I have cc'd your question to the documentation team for them to consider for > the next set of guides. > > Which documentation? Is it in the Guides that appear on these 2 pages? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/documentation/ > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications > (all the guides that appear in the first link are also in the 2nd but the 2nd > has a lot more and includes 3rd party documentation too) > > If you mean the help files that you get when you click on "Help" inside the > program then you might find the guides tend to be a lot more up-to-date and > helpful. > Thanks and regards from > Tom :) > > > > --- On Thu, 10/5/12, Carlos Pita wrote: > > From: Carlos Pita > Subject: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles > To: users@global.libreoffice.org > Date: Thursday, 10 May, 2012, 3:45 > > Hi all, > > I find this description in the documentation very misleading: > > """ > Each of the list styles predefined in Writer has four associated > paragraph styles. For example, the > Numbering 1 list style is associated with four paragraph styles: > Numbering 1 > Numbering 1 Cont. > Numbering 1 End > Numbering 1 Start > """ > > In what sense list style "Numbering 1" is related to paragraph styles > "Numbering 1 *"? What one can see is that the N in paragraph styles > "Numbering N *" is related to indentation level and not intended for > working in tandem with the list style "Numbering N". One can use > paragraph style "Numbering 1" with any of the list styles, because > concerns seem to be completely orthogonal. > > Can you clarify the relationship between paragraph styles "Numbering N > *" and list style "Numbering N"? > > What scenarios are paragraph styles "Numbering N *" and "List N *" intended > for? > > Thank you a lot > -- > Carlos > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles
Hi :) I have cc'd your question to the documentation team for them to consider for the next set of guides. Which documentation? Is it in the Guides that appear on these 2 pages? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/documentation/ http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications (all the guides that appear in the first link are also in the 2nd but the 2nd has a lot more and includes 3rd party documentation too) If you mean the help files that you get when you click on "Help" inside the program then you might find the guides tend to be a lot more up-to-date and helpful. Thanks and regards from Tom :) --- On Thu, 10/5/12, Carlos Pita wrote: From: Carlos Pita Subject: [libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Thursday, 10 May, 2012, 3:45 Hi all, I find this description in the documentation very misleading: """ Each of the list styles predefined in Writer has four associated paragraph styles. For example, the Numbering 1 list style is associated with four paragraph styles: Numbering 1 Numbering 1 Cont. Numbering 1 End Numbering 1 Start """ In what sense list style "Numbering 1" is related to paragraph styles "Numbering 1 *"? What one can see is that the N in paragraph styles "Numbering N *" is related to indentation level and not intended for working in tandem with the list style "Numbering N". One can use paragraph style "Numbering 1" with any of the list styles, because concerns seem to be completely orthogonal. Can you clarify the relationship between paragraph styles "Numbering N *" and list style "Numbering N"? What scenarios are paragraph styles "Numbering N *" and "List N *" intended for? Thank you a lot -- Carlos -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Paragraph styles for list styles
Hi all, I find this description in the documentation very misleading: """ Each of the list styles predefined in Writer has four associated paragraph styles. For example, the Numbering 1 list style is associated with four paragraph styles: Numbering 1 Numbering 1 Cont. Numbering 1 End Numbering 1 Start """ In what sense list style "Numbering 1" is related to paragraph styles "Numbering 1 *"? What one can see is that the N in paragraph styles "Numbering N *" is related to indentation level and not intended for working in tandem with the list style "Numbering N". One can use paragraph style "Numbering 1" with any of the list styles, because concerns seem to be completely orthogonal. Can you clarify the relationship between paragraph styles "Numbering N *" and list style "Numbering N"? What scenarios are paragraph styles "Numbering N *" and "List N *" intended for? Thank you a lot -- Carlos -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
