subject:"\[libreoffice\-users\] Re\: Top posting"

Hi :)
So you seem to be saying a true IT Professional should 
1.  make sure guidelines make no sense and are the opposite to the way everyone 
else works
2.  Ignore users requirements
3.  Blame the user for not following guidelines as though they were rules.  

Obviously although the word guidelines is used people must adhere to them as 
though they were strict rules.  The word guidelines is used in order to 
fool people into thinking they have a choice.  In fact there are other rules 
that are not even written up in the guidelines specifically in order to make 
people unable to follow the hidden rules.  In turn that means people will be 
routinely berated publicly for not following the rules.  

So when people first arrive at the list in order to ask for help they are not 
allowed to actually ask for the help they need until the have read the 
unwritten rules and changed their systems in order to follow your rules.  Then 
they can ask the question but if there is any slight variation, if they are 
unable to give you all the information you expect them to give, then again you 
will be there ready to berate and intimidate them.  

Now maybe you don't realise what you are doing, maybe you enjoy intimidating 
people and making them feel they dare not ask any questions.

All that is exactly why i wanted to move away from Microsoft in the first place 
and i have never seen yoru intolerant attitude anywhere else in the entire rest 
of the OpenSource community.  It only seems to be in LibreOffice where that 
attitude prevails and even then it's only the Uses list.  The other lists are 
far more welcoming to newcomers.  Which is odd really.  It should surely be 
this list that is more welcoming to newcomers and their various different ways 
of working.  Yes, we do need helpers but not ones that drive newcomers away and 
put people off continuing to use LibreOffice.  

So, i think the guidelines should really be treated as being no more than 
guidelines, certainly not be treated as rules.  Also i think the guidelines 
should be changed to conform with what newcomers are more familiar with.  It 
should be easier for people with strong technical skills to adapt to the 
newcomers instead of expecting all newcomers to adapt to a weird way they have 
never seen before.  

Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Thu, 23/2/12, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote:

From: Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 23 February, 2012, 13:35

On 2012-02-22 8:53 PM, Marc Grober m...@interak.com wrote:
 So what is the polite way to tell someone that one is going to
 continue top posting as one may feel appropriate as one may have done
 as an IT professional for the past 40 years and that if that upsets
 them they should seek professional assistance?

A true IT Professional respects rules/guidelines established by the support 
mediums they frequent - anything else is pure and simple arrogance and 
disrespect.

-- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted


-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting

2012-02-23 Thread Marc Grober

It would appear that true professionals should, as I think Tom has suggested, 
consider the actual guidelines as opposed to pontificating upon them as if they 
were running a gulag

Hail and farewell 



On Feb 23, 2012, at 4:35 AM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote:

 On 2012-02-22 8:53 PM, Marc Grober m...@interak.com wrote:
 So what is the polite way to tell someone that one is going to
 continue top posting as one may feel appropriate as one may have done
 as an IT professional for the past 40 years and that if that upsets
 them they should seek professional assistance?
 
 A true IT Professional respects rules/guidelines established by the support 
 mediums they frequent - anything else is pure and simple arrogance and 
 disrespect.
 
 -- 
 For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
 Problems? 
 http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
 Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
 List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
 All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
 

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting

Hi :)
+1
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Thu, 23/2/12, Marc Grober m...@interak.com wrote:

From: Marc Grober m...@interak.com
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting
To: users@global.libreoffice.org users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 23 February, 2012, 15:17

It would appear that true professionals should, as I think Tom has suggested, 
consider the actual guidelines as opposed to pontificating upon them as if they 
were running a gulag

Hail and farewell 



On Feb 23, 2012, at 4:35 AM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote:

 On 2012-02-22 8:53 PM, Marc Grober m...@interak.com wrote:
 So what is the polite way to tell someone that one is going to
 continue top posting as one may feel appropriate as one may have done
 as an IT professional for the past 40 years and that if that upsets
 them they should seek professional assistance?
 
 A true IT Professional respects rules/guidelines established by the support 
 mediums they frequent - anything else is pure and simple arrogance and 
 disrespect.
 
 -- 
 For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
 Problems? 
 http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
 Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
 List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
 All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
 

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted


-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting

2012-02-23 Thread V Stuart Foote

Tom,
 
As a fellow users list taking content in my email stream, I have no issue 
with your chosen style of participation and with rare exception find your 
comments germane and correct--which is my metric for viable contribution. 
You're doing just fine.
 
However--when replying--could you take just a moment longer and trim your 
reply.  That simple action greatly improves the flow of the thread whether in 
a reader, in a mail tool (Outlook), or from the Nabble interface.
 
Suspect that would lessen the ire of the pontiffs of newsgroup style lurking in 
the forum.
 
Warm regards,
 
Stuart



From: Tom Davies [mailto:tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Thu 2/23/2012 10:39 AM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting



Hi :)
+1
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Thu, 23/2/12, Marc Grober m...@interak.com wrote:

From: Marc Grober m...@interak.com
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting
To: users@global.libreoffice.org users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 23 February, 2012, 15:17

It would appear that true professionals should, as I think Tom has suggested, 
consider the actual guidelines as opposed to pontificating upon them as if they 
were running a gulag

Hail and farewell



-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting

Hi :)
I try to sometimes but i guess i could try more often.  It negates one of the 
advantages of top-posting and sometimes when i have tried this it has led to 
other flame-wars about what is good trimming and what isn't.  Also i'm not sure 
that appeasing the bullies would be a good idea.  Giving ground encourages them 
to push more.  

I do like using the Nabble interface when i get the chance and i hope that 
helps with the issue for the non-bullies that may also be affected.   
Regards from
Tom :)



--- On Thu, 23/2/12, V Stuart Foote vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu wrote:

From: V Stuart Foote vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu
Subject: RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 23 February, 2012, 16:56

Tom,
 
As a fellow users list taking content in my email stream, I have no issue 
with your chosen style of participation and with rare exception find your 
comments germane and correct--which is my metric for viable contribution. 
You're doing just fine.
 
However--when replying--could you take just a moment longer and trim your 
reply.  That simple action greatly improves the flow of the thread whether in 
a reader, in a mail tool (Outlook), or from the Nabble interface.
 
Suspect that would lessen the ire of the pontiffs of newsgroup style lurking in 
the forum.
 
Warm regards,
 
Stuart


-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting

2012-02-23 Thread Tanstaafl


On 2012-02-23 10:17 AM, Marc Grober m...@interak.com wrote:

It would appear that true professionals should, as I think Tom has
suggested, consider the actual guidelines


that is precisely the point... the list guidelines for this list are to 
bottom post with appropriate trimming (aka inline-posting), and Tom 
routinely and arrogantly ignores them because he is too lazy to be bothered.



as opposed to pontificating upon them as if they were running a
gulag


Haven't seen anyone do that, and I certainly wasn't... I merely asked 
Tom to please stop BREAKING inline posted threads by top-posting in 
them, and he responded with his same old tired irrelevant BULLSHIT.


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting

2012-02-23 Thread Werner F. Bruhin


On 23/02/2012 17:39, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
+1

+1 to what?

It can not be the post which was below which I read as being a bit 
sarcastic, as Tom seems to ignore the guide lines.


Tom does a lot of posts and I suggest that he considers my points below 
instead of just looking at providing a quick answer to whoever is the OP 
of the particular question/problem.


I am someone who tries to follow and learn from problems others 
encounter, just a casual user of LO, but I find this list difficult to 
follow, mainly due to the bad trimming and I am sorry to say the top 
posters.


Lists like this are a great archive and should be promoted as such, but 
I seriously think they loose a lot of interest with all this top posting 
which makes it difficult to find if the problem is the same as the one, 
one tries to find a solution for.  For this one has to read the question 
first before considering if the answer fits, which all this top posting 
one often has has to search for the question, instead of seeing it at 
the top.


Just my 0.02€ and I hope you all have a nice evening.
Werner



--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting

Hi Marc
It's not worth flogging a dead horse.  He will not attempt to consider anyone 
else's point of view and if you dare to disagree he will just block you too.  
Hmmm, it might be wrth aiming for that now i think about it.  

There is, of course, only ever 1 way to view things and that's your own way, 
whoever you are.  Something i usually like about OpenSource is that it usually 
allows each of us to follow our own different ways and yet all still be right 
at the same time even if it all looks completely different.  Vive le difference 
(sorry my French is appalling).  How about Diversity breeds serendipity! as a 
sort of 'war'-cry?
Regards from
Tom :)



--- On Thu, 23/2/12, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote:

From: Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 23 February, 2012, 18:50

On 2012-02-23 10:17 AM, Marc Grober m...@interak.com wrote:
 It would appear that true professionals should, as I think Tom has
 suggested, consider the actual guidelines

that is precisely the point... the list guidelines for this list are to bottom 
post with appropriate trimming (aka inline-posting), and Tom routinely and 
arrogantly ignores them because he is too lazy to be bothered.

 as opposed to pontificating upon them as if they were running a
 gulag

Haven't seen anyone do that, and I certainly wasn't... I merely asked Tom to 
please stop BREAKING inline posted threads by top-posting in them, and he 
responded with his same old tired irrelevant BULLSHIT.

-- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted


-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting

2012-02-23 Thread Stefan Weigel

Hi,

Am 23.02.2012 19:55, schrieb Werner F. Bruhin:

 Lists like this are a great archive and should be promoted as such,
 but I seriously think they loose a lot of interest with all this top
 posting which makes it difficult to find if the problem is the same
 as the one, one tries to find a solution for.  For this one has to
 read the question first before considering if the answer fits, which
 all this top posting one often has has to search for the question,
 instead of seeing it at the top.

+1

Thank You

Stefan


-- 
LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir!

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting

Hi :)
With that trimming you will never know the answer to the question because it is 
out of context and forces anyone trying to answer to dig up the email where it 
first appeared.  Almost never worth the effort.  At best something to leave 
until later, with 'later' becoming never.  
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Thu, 23/2/12, Werner F. Bruhin werner.bru...@free.fr wrote:

From: Werner F. Bruhin werner.bru...@free.fr
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 23 February, 2012, 18:55

On 23/02/2012 17:39, Tom Davies wrote:
 Hi :)
 +1
+1 to what?


-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting

2012-02-23 Thread Larry Gusaas


On 2012-02-23 12:57 PM  Tom Davies wrote:

It's not worth flogging a dead horse.  He will not attempt to consider anyone 
else's point of view and if you dare to disagree he will just block you too.  
Hmmm, it might be wrth aiming for that now i think about it.


Trying to get you to follow common netiquette is like flogging a dead horse. You continue your 
self-centred juvenile behaviour and, when confronted, claim you are being bullied. Pointing 
out proper netiquette is not bullying. Calling it bullying is just a self-indulgent puerile excuse.


--
_

Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - 
Edgard Varese



--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting

2012-02-23 Thread V Stuart Foote

OK, so who remembers what the original issue was? And for that there is the 
Document Foundation lists Nabble archive--where you can take your pick of 
layout.
 
Threaded
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Top-posting-tt3767551.html#none

List
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Top-posting-tc3767551.html

or Nabble classic
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Top-posting-td3767551.html#none

Folks, we've come a long way from usenet list posting and terminal based 
readers--but threaded lists do continue to have a place in efficient exchange 
of information.  More modern collaborative tools remove the infrastructure 
issues that bottom or in-line posting styles evloved to address.  Review the 
above presentations for function, and decide for yourselves--style is less an 
issue that content.

Not to say Tom doesn't have content issues occasionally--but don't we all. And 
for the curious Charles originally gigg'd Tom for going off topic bringing up 
Base and Writer and Calc, on a thread dealing with Power Point handling in 
LibreOffice vs. OpenOffice Impress, and flamed him over his top-posting style.


Stuart



From: Tom Davies [mailto:tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Thu 2/23/2012 1:11 PM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting



Hi :)
With that trimming you will never know the answer to the question because it is 
out of context and forces anyone trying to answer to dig up the email where it 
first appeared.  Almost never worth the effort.  At best something to leave 
until later, with 'later' becoming never. 
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Thu, 23/2/12, Werner F. Bruhin werner.bru...@free.fr wrote:

From: Werner F. Bruhin werner.bru...@free.fr
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 23 February, 2012, 18:55

On 23/02/2012 17:39, Tom Davies wrote:
 Hi :)
 +1
+1 to what?



-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting

2012-02-23 Thread Jean-Louis Oneto

I fully agree with Tom and this list sounds more and more like a 
dictatorship-governed one: do it my way of f*ck off. I will probably 
f*ck off very soon, LO/OO seems more and more to be a lot less _Open_ 
than M$ stuff, and I hate they approach!

Jean-Louis

On 23/02/2012 18:57, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi Marc
It's not worth flogging a dead horse.  He will not attempt to consider anyone else's point of view and if you dare to disagree he will just block you too.  Hmmm, it might be wrth aiming for that now i think about it. 


There is, of course, only ever 1 way to view things and that's your own way, 
whoever you are.  Something i usually like about OpenSource is that it usually 
allows each of us to follow our own different ways and yet all still be right 
at the same time even if it all looks completely different.  Vive le difference 
(sorry my French is appalling)
  ^^--la... but your French is not that much appaling, probably 
less than my English :-) [just to show that I'm also able to do inline 
posting, but I doubt that any body will ever read that!

.  How about Diversity breeds serendipity! as a sort of 'war'-cry?
Regards from
Tom :)



--- On Thu, 23/2/12, Tanstaafltansta...@libertytrek.org  wrote:

From: Tanstaafltansta...@libertytrek.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 23 February, 2012, 18:50

On 2012-02-23 10:17 AM, Marc Groberm...@interak.com  wrote:

It would appear that true professionals should, as I think Tom has
suggested, consider the actual guidelines

that is precisely the point... the list guidelines for this list are to bottom 
post with appropriate trimming (aka inline-posting), and Tom routinely and 
arrogantly ignores them because he is too lazy to be bothered.


as opposed to pontificating upon them as if they were running a
gulag

Haven't seen anyone do that, and I certainly wasn't... I merely asked Tom to 
please stop BREAKING inline posted threads by top-posting in them, and he 
responded with his same old tired irrelevant BULLSHIT.

-- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted




--
Jean-Louis Oneto
e-mail: jl.on...@free.fr


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting

Hi :)
Thanks Jean-Louis :)  Your English is fine.  

Please don't leave on account of the bad attitude of a tiny number of people in 
this thread!  The other lists have never had any arguments like this and are 
very welcoming and helpful.  They are much better to learn from too.  Well, all 
the others that i am on are good and it sounds as though the others are roughly 
the same.  Too busy and having too much fun to argue.  

Just to get a bit more perspective, the people in this thread that seem to be 
trying to force people into bottom posting only average about 2posts/month with 
2 of them (including the most vociferous one) only managing to squeeze out 
2/week, ie only a tiny little bit more.  So, although they are quite loud in 
this thread they don't really amount to much of a dictatorship.  

Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Thu, 23/2/12, Jean-Louis Oneto jl.on...@free.fr wrote:

From: Jean-Louis Oneto jl.on...@free.fr
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 23 February, 2012, 22:23

I fully agree with Tom and this list sounds more and more like a 
dictatorship-governed one: do it my way of f*ck off. I will probably f*ck off 
very soon, LO/OO seems more and more to be a lot less _Open_ than M$ stuff, and 
I hate they approach!
Jean-Louis

On 23/02/2012 18:57, Tom Davies wrote:
 Hi Marc
 It's not worth flogging a dead horse.  He will not attempt to consider anyone 
 else's point of view and if you dare to disagree he will just block you too.  
 Hmmm, it might be wrth aiming for that now i think about it. 
 There is, of course, only ever 1 way to view things and that's your own way, 
 whoever you are.  Something i usually like about OpenSource is that it 
 usually allows each of us to follow our own different ways and yet all still 
 be right at the same time even if it all looks completely different.  Vive le 
 difference (sorry my French is appalling)
      ^^--la... but your French is not that much appaling, probably less than 
my English :-) [just to show that I'm also able to do inline posting, but I 
doubt that any body will ever read that!
 .  How about Diversity breeds serendipity! as a sort of 'war'-cry?
 Regards from
 Tom :)
 
 
 
 --- On Thu, 23/2/12, Tanstaafltansta...@libertytrek.org  wrote:
 
 From: Tanstaafltansta...@libertytrek.org
 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Date: Thursday, 23 February, 2012, 18:50
 
 On 2012-02-23 10:17 AM, Marc Groberm...@interak.com  wrote:
 It would appear that true professionals should, as I think Tom has
 suggested, consider the actual guidelines
 that is precisely the point... the list guidelines for this list are to 
 bottom post with appropriate trimming (aka inline-posting), and Tom routinely 
 and arrogantly ignores them because he is too lazy to be bothered.
 
 as opposed to pontificating upon them as if they were running a
 gulag
 Haven't seen anyone do that, and I certainly wasn't... I merely asked Tom to 
 please stop BREAKING inline posted threads by top-posting in them, and he 
 responded with his same old tired irrelevant BULLSHIT.
 
 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
 Problems? 
 http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
 Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
 List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
 All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
 
 

-- Jean-Louis Oneto
e-mail: jl.on...@free.fr


-- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted


-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting

2012-02-22 Thread Larry Gusaas


On 2012-02-22 1:19 PM  Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)

Most people and especially those that are new to the lists will
top-post because that is what they are most familiar with.  Office
workers have almost never seen any alternative.  Unless the office apps
are not aimed at office users then it's ridiculous to expect anything else. 


Is it good to start off by telling people off for not doing things your way 
when we are supposed to be offering them choices?  Should we alienate people 
and make them feel that to use LibreOffice they have to completely change their 
entire lifestyle?  Is our main aim here to change the way people post or is it 
to help people move to LibreOffice?

Regards from
Tom :)


Your persistent top posting in reply to an inline posted thread shows a constant disregard for 
convention. Your failure to correct your lack of quote levels for the message replied to is 
reprehensible. You show utter disregard for common netiquette.


If this message alienates you, Good. Your self-centred attitude alienates many.


--- On Wed, 22/2/12, Tanstaafltansta...@libertytrek.org  wrote:

From: Tanstaafltansta...@libertytrek.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing LibreOffice - problem
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Cc: Tom Daviestomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Wednesday, 22 February, 2012, 17:47

On 2012-02-22 7:34 AM, Tom Daviestomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk  wrote:

On Wed, 22/2/12, Tanstaafltansta...@libertytrek.org   wrote:

On 2012-02-21 4:15 PM, Gregory Forsterglf.libreoff...@gmail.com   wrote:

When reading and modifying Microsoft Power Point files  OpenOffice.org
did a considerably better job than LibreOffice 3.4.5 (for business
purposes).

Disagree... I have had much better MSO format support in the later
versions of Libreoffice than Openoffice ever provided...

I think Impress and Base need a bit of work but Writer and Calc are
quite fantastic for this sort of thing. Well, for the most part imo.

Please stay in context Tom - and PLEASE stop top-posting in an inline posted 
thread (I expect this admonition to fall on deaf ears because you have already 
demonstrated your blatant disregard for respecting the List Posting Guidelines, 
and refuse to acknowledge the difference between *blindly* *bottom* posting and 
intelligently in-line posting).

The complaint wasn't about general file format support, it was comparing OOo 
(prior to LibO splitting off) to subsequent version of LibO.

I maintain my comment that *all* version of LibO have been at least as good, 
but mostly much *better* than prior version of OOo...

Charles

-- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted


Since you did not properly show attribution levels, the above message from Tanstaafl appears to 
be from you.


--
_

Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - 
Edgard Varese



--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting

2012-02-22 Thread T. R. Valentine

On 22 February 2012 13:56, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote:

 Your persistent top posting in reply to an inline posted thread shows a
 constant disregard for convention. Your failure to correct your lack of
 quote levels for the message replied to is reprehensible. You show utter
 disregard for common netiquette.

 If this message alienates you, Good. Your self-centred attitude alienates
 many.

I avoid the aggravation by having posts from Tom Davies automatically deleted.


-- 
T. R. Valentine
Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care.
'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food
and clothes.' -- Erasmus

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting

2012-02-22 Thread e-letter

On 22/02/2012, T. R. Valentine trvalent...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 22 February 2012 13:56, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote:

 Your persistent top posting in reply to an inline posted thread shows a
 constant disregard for convention. Your failure to correct your lack of
 quote levels for the message replied to is reprehensible. You show utter
 disregard for common netiquette.

 If this message alienates you, Good. Your self-centred attitude alienates
 many.

 I avoid the aggravation by having posts from Tom Davies automatically
 deleted.

:) :) True indeed, another top-quality (pun intended) post!

Reminds me of similar, Roland Hughes; he disappeared eventually.
Search for his posts: even more amusing.

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting

2012-02-22 Thread Marc Grober

So what is the polite way to tell someone that one is going to continue top 
posting as one may feel appropriate as one may have done as an IT professional 
for the past 40 years and that if that upsets them they should seek 
professional assistance?



On Feb 22, 2012, at 2:28 PM, e-letter inp...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 22/02/2012, T. R. Valentine trvalent...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 22 February 2012 13:56, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Your persistent top posting in reply to an inline posted thread shows a
 constant disregard for convention. Your failure to correct your lack of
 quote levels for the message replied to is reprehensible. You show utter
 disregard for common netiquette.
 
 If this message alienates you, Good. Your self-centred attitude alienates
 many.
 
 I avoid the aggravation by having posts from Tom Davies automatically
 deleted.
 
 :) :) True indeed, another top-quality (pun intended) post!
 
 Reminds me of similar, Roland Hughes; he disappeared eventually.
 Search for his posts: even more amusing.
 
 -- 
 For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
 Problems? 
 http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
 Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
 List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
 All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top posting

2012-02-22 Thread Andrew Douglas Pitonyak



On 02/22/2012 03:10 PM, T. R. Valentine wrote:

On 22 February 2012 13:56, Larry Gusaaslarry.gus...@gmail.com  wrote:

I avoid the aggravation by having posts from Tom Davies automatically 
deleted. 


Now that is cold...

--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-12 Thread Tanstaafl


On 2011-09-10 1:01 AM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak and...@pitonyak.org wrote:

No wait, that is in account settings. probably a better place for it
than in the global preferences.


No, because certain accounts you may want to treat differently.


Off hand, i would say that it should be configurable at the folder
level.


That would be a great feature, probably doable in an addon...

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-12 Thread Tanstaafl


On 2011-09-10 1:36 AM, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote:

QuoteCollapse collapses all but the last post in the thread. Works great
on lists where people do not trim the messages they are replying to.


I agree, been using it for many years...

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO MailingListGuidelines Page?

2011-09-11 Thread Andrew Douglas Pitonyak




On 09/10/2011 09:59 AM, Twayne wrote:

In
news:1910892523-1315498044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1807574881-@b2.c1.bise7.blackberry,
Onyeibo Okutwoho...@gmail.com  typed:

Sorry, this is another top-post. I agree totally but you
need to give people benefit of doubt too (like in my case
... I'm mobile and the mail app on this phone is
hardcoded to push all quotes below the reply)

Otherwise, I do bottom posts when I'm my desktop/laptop

Sheesh! Speaking of lazy; it takes exactly 2 keystrokes to from the
top/bottom to the bottom/top of any post or e-mail. CTRL HomeOREnd does the
job!

You won't have any luck in changing the bottom-posting preferences as it's
long established that the wishes of the masses will not change for the
wishes of the minorities simply for the minor convenience you present.


Hmmm, a couple of comments.

I dislike laptops because the keyboards are horrid compared to my 
standard keyboard. Pressing this key combination may be problematic. 
Still, perhaps it is lazy, but, that feels harsh to me.


If the entire mass of people preferred bottom posting, then top/bottom 
posting would rarely come up on the list. Every company where I have 
worked, top posting is used (every company has used OUTLOOK, and that is 
how the computers are pre-configured). Most of the people that I email 
on a regular basis top post, not bottom post. I expect, however, that 
top posting is strongly preferred for personal correspondence, because 
the only time that bottom posting seems to be advantageous is if you see 
an email message for the first time after there have already been 
numerous responses. In that case, it is easier to read from top to 
bottom. If you have been following the thread, however, then bottom 
posting is less efficient and annoying (and no email software supports 
positioning the view to the first non-quoted text).


I only see top/bottom posting comments on OOo/LO related email lists. 
Never noticed it mentioned on the other lists to which I subscribe. 
Hmmm, I should take a look.


Argyll mailing list, I see almost exclusively top posting.

On the GIMP documentation mailing list, it seems to be mostly top 
posting and some interspersed.


GNOME mailing list seems to have a large number of bottom posts, but, 
most are interspersed and some of the long time posters are top posters.


I did not check Apache, but, I think that the Apache lists recently 
mentioned something about this, so, I expect that they have a preference 
for bottom posting as well, but, I cannot swear to it.


I can't say I ever paid it much mind until I saw people get all riled up 
about it.


If you want bottom posting, and only bottom posting, then LO should make 
that as a clear decision and then that should be communicated when you 
sign up, and, it should be posted on a FAQ. Then, when some uninformed 
person top posts, a nicely worded response that bottom posting is 
recommended on LO mailing lists, and then provide a link to terms of 
usage that states this. The important item, however, is that these 
uninformed people be treated nicely and that their questions are 
answered. It is counter-productive to the project to provide a response 
to their question only to berate them without answering their question.



-
from twohot@device.mobile :)

-Original Message-
From: Mihamina Rakotomandimbymiham...@rktmb.org
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2011 16:10:50
To:users@global.libreoffice.org
Reply-To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we
have an LO Mailing
List Guidelines Page?

On 09/08/2011 03:45 PM, webmaster for Kracked Press
Productions wrote:

For long threads, scrolling down to the bottom to read
the new stuff is a pain.

Because your correspondants did not trim the message, as
I just did for
yours: I just select the line I want to answer and click
on reply.
It keeps (quotes) just the selected line.

Your MUA does not? Use a clever one.

Sheesh! Speaking of lazy; it takes exactly 2 keystrokes to from the
top/bottom to the bottom/top of any post or e-mail. CTRL HomeOREnd does the
job!

You won't have any luck in changing the bottom-posting preferences as it's
long established that the wishes of the masses will not change for the
wishes of the minorities simply for the minor convenience you present. You
have three volations in just this one post, in fact!

HTH,

Twayne`






--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO MailingListGuidelines Page?

2011-09-11 Thread Ken Springer


On 9/11/11 1:48 AM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:

If you want bottom posting, and only bottom posting, then LO should make
that as a clear decision and then that should be communicated when you
sign up, and, it should be posted on a FAQ. Then, when some uninformed
person top posts, a nicely worded response that bottom posting is
recommended on LO mailing lists, and then provide a link to terms of
usage that states this. The important item, however, is that these
uninformed people be treated nicely and that their questions are
answered. It is counter-productive to the project to provide a response
to their question only to berate them without answering their question.


Couldn't agree more.

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO MailingListGuidelines Page?

2011-09-10 Thread Twayne

In
news:1910892523-1315498044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1807574881-@b2.c1.bise7.blackberry,
Onyeibo Oku twoho...@gmail.com typed:
Sorry, this is another top-post. I agree totally but you
need to give people benefit of doubt too (like in my case
... I'm mobile and the mail app on this phone is
hardcoded to push all quotes below the reply)

Otherwise, I do bottom posts when I'm my desktop/laptop

Sheesh! Speaking of lazy; it takes exactly 2 keystrokes to from the
top/bottom to the bottom/top of any post or e-mail. CTRL HomeOREnd does the
job!

You won't have any luck in changing the bottom-posting preferences as it's
long established that the wishes of the masses will not change for the
wishes of the minorities simply for the minor convenience you present.

-
from twohot@device.mobile :)

-Original Message-
From: Mihamina Rakotomandimby miham...@rktmb.org
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2011 16:10:50
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Reply-To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we
have an LO Mailing
List Guidelines Page?

On 09/08/2011 03:45 PM, webmaster for Kracked Press
Productions wrote:
For long threads, scrolling down to the bottom to read
the new stuff is a pain.

Because your correspondants did not trim the message, as
I just did for
yours: I just select the line I want to answer and click
on reply.
It keeps (quotes) just the selected line.

Your MUA does not? Use a clever one.

Sheesh! Speaking of lazy; it takes exactly 2 keystrokes to from the
top/bottom to the bottom/top of any post or e-mail. CTRL HomeOREnd does the
job!

HTH,

Twayne`

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO MailingListGuidelines Page?

2011-09-10 Thread Onyeibo Oku

I do appreciate your calling me lazy sir. Thanks

-
from twohot@device.mobile :)

-Original Message-
From: Twayne twa...@twaynesdomain.com
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 09:59:48 
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Reply-To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO 
MailingListGuidelines Page?

In 
news:1910892523-1315498044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1807574881-@b2.c1.bise7.blackberry,
Onyeibo Oku twoho...@gmail.com typed:
 Sorry, this is another top-post. I agree totally but you
 need to give people benefit of doubt too (like in my case
 ... I'm mobile and the mail app on this phone is
 hardcoded to push all quotes below the reply)

 Otherwise, I do bottom posts when I'm my desktop/laptop

Sheesh! Speaking of lazy; it takes exactly 2 keystrokes to from the 
top/bottom to the bottom/top of any post or e-mail. CTRL HomeOREnd does the 
job!

You won't have any luck in changing the bottom-posting preferences as it's 
long established that the wishes of the masses will not change for the 
wishes of the minorities simply for the minor convenience you present.

 -
 from twohot@device.mobile :)

 -Original Message-
 From: Mihamina Rakotomandimby miham...@rktmb.org
 Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2011 16:10:50
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Reply-To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we
 have an LO Mailing
 List Guidelines Page?

 On 09/08/2011 03:45 PM, webmaster for Kracked Press
 Productions wrote:
 For long threads, scrolling down to the bottom to read
 the new stuff is a pain.

 Because your correspondants did not trim the message, as
 I just did for
 yours: I just select the line I want to answer and click
 on reply.
 It keeps (quotes) just the selected line.

 Your MUA does not? Use a clever one.

Sheesh! Speaking of lazy; it takes exactly 2 keystrokes to from the 
top/bottom to the bottom/top of any post or e-mail. CTRL HomeOREnd does the 
job!

You won't have any luck in changing the bottom-posting preferences as it's 
long established that the wishes of the masses will not change for the 
wishes of the minorities simply for the minor convenience you present. You 
have three volations in just this one post, in fact!

HTH,

Twayne`

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-10 Thread Nuno J. Silva

On 2011-09-09, Robert Holtzman wrote:
 On Fri, Sep 09, 2011 at 05:43:28PM +0100, Nuno J. Silva wrote:
 On 2011-09-09, Dave Douglas wrote:
 
  How Does one get off this list?  I have done everything  suggested and
  still my email box is filled with discussions I have no interest in.
  I asked one question got no help.  PLEASE take me off the list!
 
 To get off this list, you have to *unsubscribe*. Instructions for that
 have been appended to ALL MESSAGES IN ALL THE DISCUSSIONS THAT HAVE BEEN
 FILLING YOUR E-MAIL BOX, and yet you managed to ignore
 that. Congratulations.

 Ease up. The guy said he followed all the instructions. 

I managed to miss that part of his post. Many apologies, Dave.

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-09 Thread Dave Sergeant

On 8 Sep 2011 at 14:31, Ken Springer wrote:

 With all due respect Tom, the problem is you and the tools you've chosen
 to use for replying to newsgroups.  Yahoo Mail just plain sucks and
 doesn't properly do anything right for places like this.
 

I think that single paragraph explains why this thread has become so 
heated. YOU are reading this list on a NEWSGROUP. But the list is also 
available as a EMAIL LIST and an archive of that same EMAIL LIST on 
Nabble. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority are subscribed to 
the email list or view it on Nabble, and as such consider it as an 
email list and not a newsgroup.

Newsgroup people have shown over the years to have different practices 
than emailers. Bottom posters probably predominate, also the practice 
of long quotes seems far more prevalent there. And noting the comments 
about threading, most newsgroup readers do it via the header 
information. Email clients do it in various ways and I suspect Pegasus 
is far from unique in doing if from the subject line - and many email 
programs have never heard of threading...

I do receive a number of lists via newsgroups, using Gravity. But I by 
far prefer email so this is my chosen option for this list.

We are never going to agree on these issues due the huge differences in 
opinion between the newsgroup, email and forum people. So let us close 
these threads immediately and accept our differences.

Dave

http://www.davesergeant.com


-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-09 Thread Larry Gusaas


On 2011-09-09 12:21 AM  Dave Sergeant wrote:

I think that single paragraph explains why this thread has become so
heated. YOU are reading this list on a NEWSGROUP. But the list is also
available as a EMAIL LIST and an archive of that same EMAIL LIST on
Nabble. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority are subscribed to
the email list or view it on Nabble, and as such consider it as an
email list and not a newsgroup.
Irrelevant. All of the OpenOffice.org lists were email. Some of us used Gmane to read them as a 
newsgroup. The stated OOo netiquette was to intersperse. Many other email lists are the same. 
It is irrelevant that some of us read this email list through Gmane. Proper netiquette is the 
same. Some people are too obstinate to post properly.


--
_

Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - 
Edgard Varese



--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 09/08/2011 11:37 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

 The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers.


MSOffice is widely used, dont use LibreOffice then.

--
RMA.

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-09 Thread e-letter

On 09/09/2011, Dave Sergeant d...@davesergeant.com wrote:
 On 8 Sep 2011 at 14:31, Ken Springer wrote:

 With all due respect Tom, the problem is you and the tools you've chosen
 to use for replying to newsgroups.  Yahoo Mail just plain sucks and
 doesn't properly do anything right for places like this.


Agreed; yahoo is terrible, stopped using it years ago. Why would
someone choose product with such poor functionality, then blame others
for not  being able to provide a simple ability to reply to messages
with appropriate quote (e.g. angle bracket () character)
convention??? Anyway, reading the press about the demise of yet
another md of yahoo, with luck yahoo will disappear and take their
mail users too.

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-09 Thread Tanstaafl


On 2011-09-08 8:04 PM, Don C. Myers donmy...@myersfarm.com wrote:

Another thing. Does anyone actually read those links at the bottom?


I only look at them if and when I have a desire to learn something about 
how the list works - like, maybe, how to unsubscribe.


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 09/09/2011 02:52 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:

Another thing. Does anyone actually read those links at the bottom?


I only look at them if and when I have a desire to learn something about
how the list works - like, maybe, how to unsubscribe.


And let's notice it's a bit longer than de 4 lines of the usual Netiquette..

--
RMA.

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 09/08/2011 10:50 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:

The headers state that you are using YahooMailClassic/14.0.5
YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.315625
That is not an email client.


It is, sorry. It's a web based MUA.


That is an online web mail service (and a
very poor one. Gmail works much better).


But Gmail's is also poor.

--
RMA.

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 09/08/2011 09:58 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

I use a standard email client


Do you even know what's a standard?

--
RMA.

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 9/9/11 6:21 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote:

Well, anyway, when someone fails to read the .sig, or follow some other
rule, other people just point them what they missed, and everyone moves
on. It's not a big deal.


When it happens occasionally or less, you're right.  But, if too many 
people don't follow the rules, for anything, then it becomes a big deal.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 9/9/11 7:04 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:

On 09/08/2011 10:50 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:

The headers state that you are using YahooMailClassic/14.0.5
YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.315625
That is not an email client.


It is, sorry. It's a web based MUA.


That is an online web mail service (and a
very poor one. Gmail works much better).


But Gmail's is also poor.


I have always thought it was as Larry describes.  But a couple of 
Wikipedia articles agree with you.


Dang, something new to remember!  :-D


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 9/9/11 2:40 AM, e-letter wrote:

Anyway, reading the press about the demise of yet
another md of yahoo,


md= ?

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

On 2011-09-09, Ken Springer wrote:

 On 9/9/11 6:21 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote:
 Well, anyway, when someone fails to read the .sig, or follow some other
 rule, other people just point them what they missed, and everyone moves
 on. It's not a big deal.

 When it happens occasionally or less, you're right.  But, if too many
 people don't follow the rules, for anything, then it becomes a big
 deal.

I guess some people who don't know the rules and aren't used to mailing
lists (which includes looking for guidelines before posting) are people
who would rather subscribe through a web interface.

An idea would be, while keeping the usual mailing list stuff (the
ability to subscribe by sending an email to a specified address and so
on), having a web subscription interface that would drive the user
through two or three slides concisely explaining some important rules,
and how to unsubscribe.

Of course /then/ some people would skip the slides...

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 9/9/11 12:21 AM, Dave Sergeant wrote:

On 8 Sep 2011 at 14:31, Ken Springer wrote:


With all due respect Tom, the problem is you and the tools you've chosen
to use for replying to newsgroups.  Yahoo Mail just plain sucks and
doesn't properly do anything right for places like this.



I think that single paragraph explains why this thread has become so
heated. YOU are reading this list on a NEWSGROUP. But the list is also
available as a EMAIL LIST and an archive of that same EMAIL LIST on
Nabble. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority are subscribed to
the email list or view it on Nabble, and as such consider it as an
email list and not a newsgroup.


You've brought up a point, Dave, I hadn't thought of.  I do use the 
Gmane interface.


Since you mentioned Nabble, it once again made me wonder if the display 
there was a mirror to the list I see in Thunderbird, so I checked.  And 
it is.  Which is the way I would organize an online help system.  I am 
suspecting that by using folders and threading in Thunderbird, I could 
accomplish a very similar display.  But I would have to constantly 
delete the email to have some free space on the hard drive!   :-D


When I get some time, aka after the summer work season is over, I'll 
have to remember to take a more in depth look at the Nabble interface.



Newsgroup people have shown over the years to have different practices
than emailers. Bottom posters probably predominate, also the practice
of long quotes seems far more prevalent there. And noting the comments
about threading, most newsgroup readers do it via the header
information. Email clients do it in various ways and I suspect Pegasus
is far from unique in doing if from the subject line - and many email
programs have never heard of threading...


I used to use my Yahoo account regularly, but am dropping it.  I don't 
remember it being able to thread either, but it does have filters to 
direct mail to folders.



I do receive a number of lists via newsgroups, using Gravity. But I by
far prefer email so this is my chosen option for this list.


Gravity???  The messages just fall out of the sky??   :-D

My apologies, I just couldn't resist!


We are never going to agree on these issues due the huge differences in
opinion between the newsgroup, email and forum people. So let us close
these threads immediately and accept our differences.


The users don't have to agree.  LO needs to set up something more 
official in the way of netiquette than what they have now.  And 
regardless of which interface is used, i.e. the mailing list, Nabble, or 
Gmane, require and enforce the netiquette rules they develop.




--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 9/9/11 1:54 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:

On 09/08/2011 11:37 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers.


MSOffice is widely used, dont use LibreOffice then.



Uhm, Tom Davies wrote that.  :-)

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 9/9/11 9:19 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote:

On 2011-09-09, Ken Springer wrote:


On 9/9/11 6:21 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote:

Well, anyway, when someone fails to read the .sig, or follow some other
rule, other people just point them what they missed, and everyone moves
on. It's not a big deal.


When it happens occasionally or less, you're right.  But, if too many
people don't follow the rules, for anything, then it becomes a big
deal.


I guess some people who don't know the rules and aren't used to mailing
lists (which includes looking for guidelines before posting) are people
who would rather subscribe through a web interface.

An idea would be, while keeping the usual mailing list stuff (the
ability to subscribe by sending an email to a specified address and so
on), having a web subscription interface that would drive the user
through two or three slides concisely explaining some important rules,
and how to unsubscribe.

Of course /then/ some people would skip the slides...


I've often thought of something similar, i.e. when a use registers/signs 
up, that use automatically gets a document sent to the user's registered 
email address.  And then have the user acknowledge the user has received 
and understands the posting rules, netiquette, etc..  Something similar 
to having to agree to a EULA when installing software.  When the user 
gets his/her post pulled for not following they guidelines (I'm assuming 
continuing errors in posting, not the occasional error where the user 
may have had a simple brain lapse :-) ) they can't claim they didn't know.


And... You could create said document in LO!  ::grin::  But sending the 
user a PDF would be better.  :-)



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

On 2011-09-09, Ken Springer wrote:
 On 9/9/11 9:19 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote:
 I guess some people who don't know the rules and aren't used to mailing
 lists (which includes looking for guidelines before posting) are people
 who would rather subscribe through a web interface.

 An idea would be, while keeping the usual mailing list stuff (the
 ability to subscribe by sending an email to a specified address and so
 on), having a web subscription interface that would drive the user
 through two or three slides concisely explaining some important rules,
 and how to unsubscribe.

 Of course /then/ some people would skip the slides...

 I've often thought of something similar, i.e. when a use
 registers/signs up, that use automatically gets a document sent to the
 user's registered email address.  And then have the user acknowledge
 the user has received and understands the posting rules, netiquette,
 etc..  Something similar to having to agree to a EULA when installing
 software.  When the user gets his/her post pulled for not following
 they guidelines (I'm assuming continuing errors in posting, not the
 occasional error where the user may have had a simple brain lapse :-)
 ) they can't claim they didn't know.

 And... You could create said document in LO!  ::grin::  But sending
 the user a PDF would be better.  :-)

No, the idea here is exactly to force users through small[1] explanations
*before* they subscribe. That is, said web subscription wouldn't be made
until the user finished the small slideshow. And to avoid overdoing
it, it should be in plain HTML.

[1] small means it shouldn't be the entire contents of RFC 1855 and
additional guidelines, just a simple set of rules.

(And actually, I think sending it as a PDF instead of a plain text
e-mail would be a bad idea. If you're sending it by e-mail, why not just
put it in the e-mail? PDFs aren't good for on-screen reading, anyway.)

Even if the user wants to skip it, they still has to skip each slide
to get to the submit form.

Also, a key feature would be that users who are already used to mailing
lists and find the subscription email can easily skip this and subscribe
by mail.

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-09 Thread Dave Douglas

How Does one get off this list?  I have done everything  suggested and still 
my email box is filled with discussions I have no interest in.  I asked one 
question got no help.  PLEASE take me off the list!







-Original Message- 
From: Nuno J. Silva

Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 9:01 AM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO 
MailingList Guidelines Page?


On 2011-09-09, Ken Springer wrote:

On 9/9/11 9:19 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote:

I guess some people who don't know the rules and aren't used to mailing
lists (which includes looking for guidelines before posting) are people
who would rather subscribe through a web interface.

An idea would be, while keeping the usual mailing list stuff (the
ability to subscribe by sending an email to a specified address and so
on), having a web subscription interface that would drive the user
through two or three slides concisely explaining some important rules,
and how to unsubscribe.

Of course /then/ some people would skip the slides...


I've often thought of something similar, i.e. when a use
registers/signs up, that use automatically gets a document sent to the
user's registered email address.  And then have the user acknowledge
the user has received and understands the posting rules, netiquette,
etc..  Something similar to having to agree to a EULA when installing
software.  When the user gets his/her post pulled for not following
they guidelines (I'm assuming continuing errors in posting, not the
occasional error where the user may have had a simple brain lapse :-)
) they can't claim they didn't know.

And... You could create said document in LO!  ::grin::  But sending
the user a PDF would be better.  :-)


No, the idea here is exactly to force users through small[1] explanations
*before* they subscribe. That is, said web subscription wouldn't be made
until the user finished the small slideshow. And to avoid overdoing
it, it should be in plain HTML.

[1] small means it shouldn't be the entire contents of RFC 1855 and
additional guidelines, just a simple set of rules.

(And actually, I think sending it as a PDF instead of a plain text
e-mail would be a bad idea. If you're sending it by e-mail, why not just
put it in the e-mail? PDFs aren't good for on-screen reading, anyway.)

Even if the user wants to skip it, they still has to skip each slide
to get to the submit form.

Also, a key feature would be that users who are already used to mailing
lists and find the subscription email can easily skip this and subscribe
by mail.

--
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? 
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/

Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be 
deleted



--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-09 Thread John McAtee

From: Nuno J. Silva nunojsi...@ist.utl.pt
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Friday, September 9, 2011 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing 
List Guidelines Page?

On 2011-09-09, Ken Springer wrote:
 On 9/9/11 9:19 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote:
 I guess some people who don't know the rules and aren't used to mailing
 lists (which includes looking for guidelines before posting) are people
 who would rather subscribe through a web interface.

 An idea would be, while keeping the usual mailing list stuff (the
 ability to subscribe by sending an email to a specified address and so
 on), having a web subscription interface that would drive the user
 through two or three slides concisely explaining some important rules,
 and how to unsubscribe.

 Of course /then/ some people would skip the slides...

 I've often thought of something similar, i.e. when a use
 registers/signs up, that use automatically gets a document sent to the
 user's registered email address.  And then have the user acknowledge
 the user has received and understands the posting rules, netiquette,
 etc..  Something similar to having to agree to a EULA when installing
 software.  When the user gets his/her post pulled for not following
 they guidelines (I'm assuming continuing errors in posting, not the
 occasional error where the user may have had a simple brain lapse :-)
 ) they can't claim they didn't know.

 And... You could create said document in LO!  ::grin::  But sending
 the user a PDF would be better.  :-)

No, the idea here is exactly to force users through small[1] explanations
*before* they subscribe. That is, said web subscription wouldn't be made
until the user finished the small slideshow. And to avoid overdoing
it, it should be in plain HTML.

[1] small means it shouldn't be the entire contents of RFC 1855 and
additional guidelines, just a simple set of rules.

(And actually, I think sending it as a PDF instead of a plain text
e-mail would be a bad idea. If you're sending it by e-mail, why not just
put it in the e-mail? PDFs aren't good for on-screen reading, anyway.)

Even if the user wants to skip it, they still has to skip each slide
to get to the submit form.

Also, a key feature would be that users who are already used to mailing
lists and find the subscription email can easily skip this and subscribe
by mail.

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

LO List 
I have refrained from getting on this thread simply because it is a minuscule 
discussion in the grand scheme of the universe. 
BUT this is the kind of attitude that has kept Linux and Open Source software 
in the niche it is in, at least in any part of the tech world I am involved in. 
And out of respect for those it offends I bottom post.

GET OVER IT.  
John McAtee
-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

On 2011-09-09, Dave Douglas wrote:

 How Does one get off this list?  I have done everything  suggested and
 still my email box is filled with discussions I have no interest in.
 I asked one question got no help.  PLEASE take me off the list!

To get off this list, you have to *unsubscribe*. Instructions for that
have been appended to ALL MESSAGES IN ALL THE DISCUSSIONS THAT HAVE BEEN
FILLING YOUR E-MAIL BOX, and yet you managed to ignore
that. Congratulations.

Heck, your message even arrived here with *two* of these list
signatures. Go read it to see the instructions. X-ray glasses are not
needed.

You can also look into the message headers for the unsubscribe address.

Unsubscription is done *exactly* as subscription.

(Now please just tell me you're joking. You're trolling, right? I can
see the hidden cameras...)


I'm not going to quote the signature, because this message will just get
a brand new list signature below, you see, after my gopherhole address:

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-09 Thread Cor Nouws


Dave Douglas wrote (09-09-11 18:25)

How Does one get off this list? I have done everything suggested and
still my email box is filled with discussions I have no interest in. I
asked one question got no help. PLEASE take me off the list!


The same way as you subscribed, only the effect is in the opposite 
direction ;-)



--
 - Cor
 - http://nl.libreoffice.org


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 9/9/11 10:01 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote:

On 2011-09-09, Ken Springer wrote:

On 9/9/11 9:19 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote:

I guess some people who don't know the rules and aren't used to mailing
lists (which includes looking for guidelines before posting) are people
who would rather subscribe through a web interface.

An idea would be, while keeping the usual mailing list stuff (the
ability to subscribe by sending an email to a specified address and so
on), having a web subscription interface that would drive the user
through two or three slides concisely explaining some important rules,
and how to unsubscribe.

Of course /then/ some people would skip the slides...


I've often thought of something similar, i.e. when a use
registers/signs up, that use automatically gets a document sent to the
user's registered email address.  And then have the user acknowledge
the user has received and understands the posting rules, netiquette,
etc..  Something similar to having to agree to a EULA when installing
software.  When the user gets his/her post pulled for not following
they guidelines (I'm assuming continuing errors in posting, not the
occasional error where the user may have had a simple brain lapse :-)
) they can't claim they didn't know.

And... You could create said document in LO!  ::grin::  But sending
the user a PDF would be better.  :-)


No, the idea here is exactly to force users through small[1] explanations
*before* they subscribe. That is, said web subscription wouldn't be made
until the user finished the small slideshow. And to avoid overdoing
it, it should be in plain HTML.


I took your slide idea backwards.  :-)  I read it as *after* you 
subscribed, you would see the slides.  Having it before, as a simplified 
explanation of what is expected, is a great idea.


As is plain and simple HTML.  I took a introductory web class one time, 
and it was mentioned that too many pages get too busy, making it hard 
to find the pertinent information you are looking for.



[1] small means it shouldn't be the entire contents of RFC 1855 and
additional guidelines, just a simple set of rules.


Agreed.


(And actually, I think sending it as a PDF instead of a plain text
e-mail would be a bad idea. If you're sending it by e-mail, why not just
put it in the e-mail? PDFs aren't good for on-screen reading, anyway.)


I always take ideas like this, and view them from the perspective a new, 
inexperience user with a lack of knowledge about X.  That being said...


I would submit that any simple set of guidelines that would be included 
in your slides would be insufficient to provide the information to many, 
if not most, new users.  I don't think most of the younger users would 
have a clue as to how to properly write a post.


Until the new users are given *all* requirements of proper posting, you 
will be asking for problems and confusion.


I would include most if not all of the Netmeister's Learn to Quote 
pages in said document.  Too many times I've seen rules posted with 
absolutely no justification or explanation as to why the rule was put in 
effect.  When I've come up against this, I've usually gone away 
irritated to say the least.  But, when I know *why* the rule is in 
effect, it usually sheds new light on the reason for the rule.


Not only should we provide the new user with the rules, we should 
provide the reasons/justifications for the rules as an education for the 
inexperienced.  Old salts can simply skip the reading.


I learned more about posting to newsgroups from that article than I'd 
ever managed to learn before.  And while I've not been able to do much 
with newsgroups over the years, I have been using computers since the 
8-bit days.


Many people don't know how to use any mail client properly, would they 
even know how to deal with the email other than read it online?  And 
something that is simply put in the body of the email cannot be 
comprehensive, well formatted, or even professional looking.


By attaching a PDF file, you can put the information in a file that 
includes the LO look and feel of the documentation for LO.  Also, as 
most of the less knowledgeable users may have difficulty in printing 
and/or downloading the email itself, I suspect most know how to download 
attachments.  :-)


Alternatively, you could provide a link to the document that would 
automatically download it.



snip


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-09 Thread Tom Davies

Hi :)
Many apologies for the rude and unhelpful tone of previous replies!  Also many 
apologies that your original problem couldn't be answered  A quick copypaste 
from the guidelines 
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
really doesn't take long.


Check which e-mail address you subscribed to the list


People sometimes report that they are having problems un-subscribing
from a list. Sometimes, the reason is simply that they are not sending
the un-subscription request from the same e-mail address that they
originally used to sign-up. If you have multiple e-mail addresses and
are no longer sure what address you used when you subscribed, please
look at the headers of a message from the list (look for a button or
link such as Details or Raw Message or Original Message in your
e-mail program or web-mail page). Your e-mail address will be listed in
the Delivered-To entry or the Return-Path entry, such as
illustrated below:
Delivered-To: john@example.com
[...]
Return-Path: users-bounces-1234-john.doe=example@global.libreoffice.org
Notice that in the Return-Path, your address is embedded in another address, 
and the @ is replaced by =. 


Hopefully that helpsGood luck and regards fromTom :)


--- On Fri, 9/9/11, Nuno J. Silva nunojsi...@ist.utl.pt wrote:

From: Nuno J. Silva nunojsi...@ist.utl.pt
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing 
List Guidelines Page?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Friday, 9 September, 2011, 17:43

On 2011-09-09, Dave Douglas wrote:

 How Does one get off this list?  I have done everything  suggested and
 still my email box is filled with discussions I have no interest in.
 I asked one question got no help.  PLEASE take me off the list!

To get off this list, you have to *unsubscribe*. Instructions for that
have been appended to ALL MESSAGES IN ALL THE DISCUSSIONS THAT HAVE BEEN
FILLING YOUR E-MAIL BOX, and yet you managed to ignore
that. Congratulations.

Heck, your message even arrived here with *two* of these list
signatures. Go read it to see the instructions. X-ray glasses are not
needed.

You can also look into the message headers for the unsubscribe address.

Unsubscription is done *exactly* as subscription.

(Now please just tell me you're joking. You're trolling, right? I can
see the hidden cameras...)


I'm not going to quote the signature, because this message will just get
a brand new list signature below, you see, after my gopherhole address:

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted


-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-09 Thread Robert Holtzman

On Thu, Sep 08, 2011 at 01:37:51PM -0600, Larry Gusaas wrote:
 On 2011-09-08 1:12 PM  Tom Davies wrote:
 Hi :)
 Look, the interspersed answers from Larry are practically unidentifiable 
 from the message.  By posting at the top (or bottom) it would have been 
 clearer which were your answers.
 Every line of the post I am replying to has a  in front of it if
 using a plain text reader. In thunderbird as I have it configured
 there is a coloured vertical line before all of the text I am
 replying to and not in front of my reply.

Whether that shows up is a function of what MUA you use to read the
message, or perhaps what the list software does. I use Mutt and your
posts show a  before the first character of the first line of quote
and a + before each subsequent line of the quoted passage. Also, you
don't isolate the quote from what you write with one or more blank
lines top and bottom. This adds to the confusion, at least for me.

 I was giving specific
 answers to each part of your post. Interspersing makes it clear what
 specific point I was responding to.

True.

   snip...

-- 
Bob Holtzman
If you think you're getting free lunch, 
check the price of the beer.
Key ID: 8D549279

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-09 Thread Robert Holtzman

On Thu, Sep 08, 2011 at 07:58:52PM +0100, Tom Davies wrote:
 Hi :)
 I use a standard email client in a standard way set on it's defaults.  There 
 are likely to be more people using such systems as LibreOffice becomes more 
 popular.  Hold onto your hats!

Is someone holding a gun to your head to force you to use your mail
client's defaults? 

 
 Why are people in here so determined to make things unpleasant and difficult 
 for normal office workers?  Is LibreOffice not meant to be used in offices by 
 office workers?
 Regards from

Do the defaults include not trimming or wrapping your lines?

  snip of superfluous crap

-- 
Bob Holtzman
If you think you're getting free lunch, 
check the price of the beer.
Key ID: 8D549279

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 9/9/11 2:40 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:

On 09/08/2011 10:42 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:

On 09/08/2011 04:33 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

This list should allow people to use what they are familiar with
rather than try
to alienate new users surely?


I dont agree with you.


There are many nuances as to why sometimes top posting is a better
choice, but, because this is really a personal preference that I
frequently see turn into a mean-spirited flame war, I won't bother to
enumerate them here and now.

Are you aware of any email software that can be configured to easily
deal with bottom posting (ie, when you hit reply, it places the cursor
at the bottom of the message rather than the top, and, while reading the
email, it skips the repeated top content and places the view screen
beginning at the first new content)?

I always figured that I should top AND bottom post. You decide if that
is so that everyone will be happy, or no one will be happy :-)



Thunderbird will start your reply at the bottom.  And I've seen others 
with this option also.  But I've never seen any email program that will 
go simply to the new content.  I'm not sure it would even be possible, 
as a lot of where the new content in would depend on what the 
writer/poster did.




--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

On 2011-09-09, Ken Springer wrote:

 On 9/9/11 2:40 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:
 On 09/08/2011 10:42 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:
 On 09/08/2011 04:33 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
 This list should allow people to use what they are familiar with
 rather than try
 to alienate new users surely?

 I dont agree with you.

 There are many nuances as to why sometimes top posting is a better
 choice, but, because this is really a personal preference that I
 frequently see turn into a mean-spirited flame war, I won't bother to
 enumerate them here and now.

 Are you aware of any email software that can be configured to easily
 deal with bottom posting (ie, when you hit reply, it places the cursor
 at the bottom of the message rather than the top, and, while reading the
 email, it skips the repeated top content and places the view screen
 beginning at the first new content)?

 I always figured that I should top AND bottom post. You decide if that
 is so that everyone will be happy, or no one will be happy :-)


 Thunderbird will start your reply at the bottom.  And I've seen others
 with this option also.  But I've never seen any email program that
 will go simply to the new content.  I'm not sure it would even be
 possible, as a lot of where the new content in would depend on what
 the writer/poster did.

I guess some programs will have an option to collapse quoted text. I
suggest searching in addons.mozilla.org for a thunderbird extension that
does that (I thought QuoteColors did it, but apparently it doesn't).

Other clients will do a pretty good job, like Claws-Mail, but I don't
know about collapsing quoted text.

As for Gnus, either it does have some way to collapse quoted text or you
hack it so that it does.

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 9/9/11 5:33 PM, Nuno J. Silva wrote:

On 2011-09-09, Ken Springer wrote:


On 9/9/11 2:40 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:

On 09/08/2011 10:42 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:

On 09/08/2011 04:33 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

This list should allow people to use what they are familiar with
rather than try
to alienate new users surely?


I dont agree with you.


There are many nuances as to why sometimes top posting is a better
choice, but, because this is really a personal preference that I
frequently see turn into a mean-spirited flame war, I won't bother to
enumerate them here and now.

Are you aware of any email software that can be configured to easily
deal with bottom posting (ie, when you hit reply, it places the cursor
at the bottom of the message rather than the top, and, while reading the
email, it skips the repeated top content and places the view screen
beginning at the first new content)?

I always figured that I should top AND bottom post. You decide if that
is so that everyone will be happy, or no one will be happy :-)



Thunderbird will start your reply at the bottom.  And I've seen others
with this option also.  But I've never seen any email program that
will go simply to the new content.  I'm not sure it would even be
possible, as a lot of where the new content in would depend on what
the writer/poster did.


I guess some programs will have an option to collapse quoted text. I
suggest searching in addons.mozilla.org for a thunderbird extension that
does that (I thought QuoteColors did it, but apparently it doesn't).


Quote colors would really be nice, but it's incompatible with this 
version of TB at the moment.  I hope the author updates it.


I did find Quote Highlight and QuoteCollapse, and I suspect the second 
one does what you are requesting.  I can take a screenshot of what it 
does and email it if you would like to see the results.



Other clients will do a pretty good job, like Claws-Mail, but I don't
know about collapsing quoted text.

As for Gnus, either it does have some way to collapse quoted text or you
hack it so that it does.




--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-09 Thread Larry Gusaas



On 2011-09-09 7:12 PM  Ken Springer wrote:

On 9/9/11 5:33 PM, Nuno J. Silva wrote:

I guess some programs will have an option to collapse quoted text. I
suggest searching in addons.mozilla.org for a thunderbird extension that
does that (I thought QuoteColors did it, but apparently it doesn't).


Quote colors would really be nice, but it's incompatible with this version of TB at the 
moment.  I hope the author updates it.


I hacked the version compatibility on QuoteColors and it works fine on TB 6.02

I did find Quote Highlight and QuoteCollapse, and I suspect the second one does what you are 
requesting.  I can take a screenshot of what it does and email it if you would like to see 
the results.


QuoteCollapse collapses all but the last post in the thread. Works great on lists where people 
do not trim the messages they are replying to.



--
_

Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - 
Edgard Varese



--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Dave Sergeant

On 8 Sep 2011 at 8:45, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions wrote:

 For long threads, scrolling down to the bottom to read the new stuff is
 a pain. But if you want to top post, or bottom post, to each his own.
 

This list seems to suffer from long sections of quoted text with 
sometimes just a single line of new stuff right at the bottom (eg. 'I 
agree'). Provided people cut out all but what is relevant to their 
reply I personally don't mind whether it is top, bottom or 
interspersed. But as one with a casual interest in most of the posts, 
the ability to quickly see the gist without having to scroll down 
several page worths is vital. I am told by the way that top posting is 
far preferable to disabled people using reading aids, as they hardly 
want all the old stuff spoken by their machine before they get to the 
new stuff.

Dave



http://www.davesergeant.com


-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 9/8/11 6:45 AM, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions wrote:

For long threads, scrolling down to the bottom to read the new stuff is
a pain.
But if you want to top post, or bottom post, to each his own.


It seems to me, an inherent problem with this kind of free for all in 
posting styles is you never know where to look for replies.  :-)


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Mihamina Rakotomandimby


On 09/08/2011 04:24 PM, Dave Sergeant wrote:

For long threads, scrolling down to the bottom to read the new stuff is
  a pain. But if you want to top post, or bottom post, to each his own.


This list seems to suffer from long sections of quoted text with
sometimes just a single line of new stuff right at the bottom (eg. 'I
agree').


1°) the single I agree line is useless
2°) When bottom posting one should go to the end of the road and trim

--
RMA.

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Nuno J. Silva

On 2011-09-08, Dave Sergeant wrote:

 On 8 Sep 2011 at 8:45, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions wrote:

 [...] I am told by the way that top posting is 
 far preferable to disabled people using reading aids, as they hardly 
 want all the old stuff spoken by their machine before they get to the 
 new stuff.

I guess the machine can recognize well-formed e-mail messages (that is,
not the kind that gets sent by clients which default to top-posting),
and then just ignore the quoted content.

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


Hi, Tom,

On 9/8/11 6:13 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

Top posting is fine.  Almost everyone top-posts except some people in a few
OpenSource mailing lists.  If you need to communicate with anyone that works in
an office then you probably have to top-post otherwise they will probably just
ignore your email and delete it without reading it..


Top posting essentially ends up with a layout/format that is similar to 
forums, but in reverse.  All new answers are at the top of the 
discussion, and in forums the new answers are at the bottom.


And if the discussion is long, and the poster doesn't trim or the number 
of pertinent replies gets large, finding the section of the message that 
is being replied to requires a lot of scrolling.  And can be a huge time 
waster, as it is in long forum threads.  I know this about forum 
threads, I'm involved with one now that is 6 web pages in length currently.



A few old-timers here might have to accept that we are here to help open things
up for people not  to bully, restrict and make unnecessary demands.


Asking people to follow the rules is not bullying, restricting, or 
making unnecessary demands.  It simply makes it easier for everyone to 
know where the new replies will be found.



I think the core problems of this dilemma of where to post is lack of 
education, and lack of enforcement of the rules.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 9/8/11 7:33 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

Often you already know roughly what is going on and only need to read the latest
post.


If you're following only one thread/subthread in the messages, and have 
been able to keep up.   :-D  But I follow a lot of things, in a lot of 
places, and I often have to go back to older messages, even if trimming 
is being used, to refresh my memory.  (What's left of the memory!  LOL)



Sometimes people might need quick easy access to previous comments and a
quick scroll downwards can help them gain context if they can't quite remember
some detail.


Quick scrolling?  What's that?  LOL

Seriously, though, if interspersion is used, you don't have to scroll 
anywhere.



This list should allow people to use what they are familiar with rather than try
to alienate new users surely?


Absolutely not!  If a person is alienated by being asked to follow the 
rules, then that person doesn't belong, or play well with the other 
kids.  :-)  Using that philosophy, if driving my car backwards down the 
street is what I'm familiar with, should I be able to do that when I 
come visit you?  Should I be allowed to drive backwards on the other 
side of the road?


A newsgroup is a community, and for any community to function 
efficiently, rules need to be established, followed, and enforced.



It's a little unwelcoming to say that all new
users are lazy slobs and even worse to hide answers away where they wont find
them imo.


Following the rules does not hide the answers.  In fact, it's just the 
opposite, IMO.  If you follow, and enforce, the rules, and you know the 
rules, you know where to find the answers.


All civilizations, cultures, communities that are/were successful had 
rules that were followed.  Anarchy, everyone doing what they wanted, has 
never been successful AFAIK.



LO's website, though, is another story!   :-D


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 9/8/11 8:03 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

Over the past few months there has been a steadily increasing amount of 
top-posting.
It is not just one or 2 people.  Outside of LibreOffice and OpenSource everyone 
else uses
top-post almost exclusively.  Smart phones make it difficult to post any other 
way.


Mozilla's netiquette page specifies interspersion.

Anyone using a smartphone for something like this isn't interested in 
quality and depth in a conversation anyway.   :-)



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 9/8/11 8:20 AM, Chris Morgan wrote:

In most cases top-posting is preferable. However, in this 'list'
environment, bottom-posting
and selective quoting works better for retaining context. However, we
cannot enforce this
without alienating the very people this list is aimed at (ie everyone),
so we will
just have to live with a few inconsistencies and inconveniences.


I disagree, you can enforce it.  You just have to have the courage to do so.

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Mihamina Rakotomandimby


On 09/08/2011 05:49 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

I think the core problems of this dilemma of where to post is lack of
education, and lack of enforcement of the rules.


Oh Ken, thay got education! but the kind of education saying:
Well, let's quickly reply: the correcpondant will always understand

--
RMA.

--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 9/8/11 9:31 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:

On 09/08/2011 05:49 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

I think the core problems of this dilemma of where to post is lack of
education, and lack of enforcement of the rules.


Oh Ken, thay got education! but the kind of education saying:
Well, let's quickly reply: the correcpondant will always understand



LMAO

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

Hi :)
Interspersing or bottom-posting ensures that every message needs to be scrolled 
through unless people delete all the stuff that is irrelevant (in their 
opinion, which 'might not' be the same as the opinion of the person reading).  
Top posting means that most emails can be read without any scrolling at all.
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Thu, 8/9/11, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:

From: Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List 
Guidelines Page?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 8 September, 2011, 16:09

On 9/8/11 7:33 AM, Tom Davies wrote:
 Often you already know roughly what is going on and only need to read the 
 latest
 post.

If you're following only one thread/subthread in the messages, and have been 
able to keep up.   :-D  But I follow a lot of things, in a lot of places, and I 
often have to go back to older messages, even if trimming is being used, to 
refresh my memory.  (What's left of the memory!  LOL)

 Sometimes people might need quick easy access to previous comments and a
 quick scroll downwards can help them gain context if they can't quite remember
 some detail.

Quick scrolling?  What's that?  LOL

Seriously, though, if interspersion is used, you don't have to scroll anywhere.

 This list should allow people to use what they are familiar with rather than 
 try
 to alienate new users surely?

Absolutely not!  If a person is alienated by being asked to follow the rules, 
then that person doesn't belong, or play well with the other kids.  :-)  
Using that philosophy, if driving my car backwards down the street is what I'm 
familiar with, should I be able to do that when I come visit you?  Should I be 
allowed to drive backwards on the other side of the road?

A newsgroup is a community, and for any community to function efficiently, 
rules need to be established, followed, and enforced.

 It's a little unwelcoming to say that all new
 users are lazy slobs and even worse to hide answers away where they wont find
 them imo.

Following the rules does not hide the answers.  In fact, it's just the 
opposite, IMO.  If you follow, and enforce, the rules, and you know the rules, 
you know where to find the answers.

All civilizations, cultures, communities that are/were successful had rules 
that were followed.  Anarchy, everyone doing what they wanted, has never been 
successful AFAIK.


LO's website, though, is another story!   :-D


-- Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


-- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

On 2011-09-08 11:14 AM Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
Interspersing or bottom-posting ensures that every message needs to be scrolled
through unless people delete all the stuff that is irrelevant (in their
opinion, which 'might not' be the same as the opinion of the person reading).
Top posting means that most emails can be read without any scrolling at all.
Regards from
Tom :)
Not true. You have to scroll down to see what is being responded to then scroll back up to see
the response. Since you do not include proper attribution marks for the posts you respond to,
the immediate message you respond to appears to be written by you.

clip /

Following the rules does not hide the answers. In fact, it's just the
opposite, IMO. If you follow, and enforce, the rules, and you know the rules,
you know where to find the answers.

All civilizations, cultures, communities that are/were successful had rules
that were followed. Anarchy, everyone doing what they wanted, has never been
successful AFAIK.

This passage did not have attribution marks and therefore appears to be from
you.

--
_

Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. -
Edgard Varese

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 9/8/11 11:37 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote:

On 2011-09-08 11:14 AM Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
Interspersing or bottom-posting ensures that every message needs to be
scrolled through unless people delete all the stuff that is irrelevant
(in their opinion, which 'might not' be the same as the opinion of the
person reading). Top posting means that most emails can be read
without any scrolling at all.
Regards from
Tom :)

Not true. You have to scroll down to see what is being responded to then
scroll back up to see the response. Since you do not include proper
attribution marks for the posts you respond to, the immediate message
you respond to appears to be written by you.

clip /

Following the rules does not hide the answers. In fact, it's just the
opposite, IMO. If you follow, and enforce, the rules, and you know the
rules, you know where to find the answers.

All civilizations, cultures, communities that are/were successful had
rules that were followed. Anarchy, everyone doing what they wanted,
has never been successful AFAIK.

This passage did not have attribution marks and therefore appears to be
from you.



Larry has just presented two other problems with top-posting.

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

Hi :)
No, he didn't.  He just showed that he has not read any of the  posts yet as 
his arguments are already countered in previous posts.

Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting might 
be.  The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers.  Do we 
want to stop office workers from using LibreOffice?  Alienating them would be a 
good way to get them to stay with whatever else they already use.  

Betamax was a better format than VHS but it lost the battle for acceptance and 
now the argument is irrelevant anyway.  Perhaps it is similar with bottom 
posting.  It might be better but almost no-one in our target markets use it 
(note the almost there).  Most people would rather use forums anyway as 
mailing lists are ancient and out-dated.  

So, do we want to go the route of betamax, ie obscurity, or do we want to get 
LibreOffice out there and being used?  
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Thu, 8/9/11, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:

From: Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List 
Guidelines Page?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 8 September, 2011, 18:53

On 9/8/11 11:37 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
 On 2011-09-08 11:14 AM Tom Davies wrote:
 Hi :)
 Interspersing or bottom-posting ensures that every message needs to be
 scrolled through unless people delete all the stuff that is irrelevant
 (in their opinion, which 'might not' be the same as the opinion of the
 person reading). Top posting means that most emails can be read
 without any scrolling at all.
 Regards from
 Tom :)
 Not true. You have to scroll down to see what is being responded to then
 scroll back up to see the response. Since you do not include proper
 attribution marks for the posts you respond to, the immediate message
 you respond to appears to be written by you.

 clip /
 Following the rules does not hide the answers. In fact, it's just the
 opposite, IMO. If you follow, and enforce, the rules, and you know the
 rules, you know where to find the answers.

 All civilizations, cultures, communities that are/were successful had
 rules that were followed. Anarchy, everyone doing what they wanted,
 has never been successful AFAIK.
 This passage did not have attribution marks and therefore appears to be
 from you.


Larry has just presented two other problems with top-posting.

-- 
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Nuno J. Silva

-sigh- let's see if I can get this attribution thing
fixed... gnus-outlook-deuglify-article couldn't process this message

On 2011-09-08, Tom Davies wrote:
 On Thu, 8/9/11, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:
  On 9/8/11 11:37 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
  On 2011-09-08 11:14 AM Tom Davies wrote:
 
  Interspersing or bottom-posting ensures that every message needs to be
  scrolled through unless people delete all the stuff that is irrelevant
  (in their opinion, which 'might not' be the same as the opinion of the
  person reading). Top posting means that most emails can be read
  without any scrolling at all.
 
  Not true. You have to scroll down to see what is being responded to then
  scroll back up to see the response. Since you do not include proper
  attribution marks for the posts you respond to, the immediate message
  you respond to appears to be written by you.

Well, I guess if someone has a pretty damn good short term memory, then
we really don't need any context at all. That's right, we need ... erm,
what was I talking about again?

  Larry has just presented two other problems with top-posting.

 No, he didn't.  He just showed that he has not read any of the posts
 yet as his arguments are already countered in previous posts.

What was exactly your argument to support lack of proper
citation/attribution marks?

 Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting
 might be.  The fact is that it is widely used especially by office
 workers.  Do we want to stop office workers from using LibreOffice? 
 Alienating them would be a good way to get them to stay with whatever
 else they already use. 

Maybe we should instead teach office workers to use e-mail correctly.


 Betamax was a better format than VHS but it lost the battle for
 acceptance and now the argument is irrelevant anyway.  Perhaps it is
 similar with bottom posting.  It might be better but almost no-one in
 our target markets use it (note the almost there).  Most people
 would rather use forums anyway as mailing lists are ancient and
 out-dated. 

Unlike betamax and VHS, top-posted emails and bottom-posted emails are
both readable by the same kind of client, so that analogy won't work.

With betamax and VHS, unless you buy a VCR that supports both, or two
VCRs, you get to stick with the choice you made and you can't use the
other format.


 So, do we want to go the route of betamax, ie obscurity, or do we want
 to get LibreOffice out there and being used? 





 -- 
 Ken

 Mac OS X 10.6.8
 Firefox 6.0.2
 Thunderbird 6.0.2
 LibreOffice 3.3.3


 -- 
 For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
 Problems? 
 http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
 Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
 List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
 All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Can't you at least delete signatures?

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

On 2011-09-08 12:10 PM Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
No, he didn't. He just showed that he has not read any of the posts yet as
his arguments are already countered in previous posts.
Bullshit. You continually do not show the proper attribution in the posts you reply to. You
have not countered this in any post. This has been mentioned many times but you refuse to
correct your email client behaviour.

Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting might be.
The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers. Do we want
to stop office workers from using LibreOffice? Alienating them would be a good
way to get them to stay with whatever else they already use.
What office workers do is irrelevant. How would support givers properly interspersing and
trimming their replies keep office workers from using LibreOffice?

How would properly interspersing a reply to their questions alienate them?

Betamax was a better format than VHS but it lost the battle for acceptance and now the
argument is irrelevant anyway. Perhaps it is similar with bottom posting. It might be
better but almost no-one in our target markets use it (note the almost
there). Most people would rather use forums anyway as mailing lists are ancient and
out-dated.

And that statement is totally irrelevant to the question.

So, do we want to go the route of betamax, ie obscurity, or do we want to get
LibreOffice out there and being used?
How is the request to people giving support to properly intersperse and trim have anything to
do with getting people to use LibreOffice?

--
_

Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. -
Edgard Varese

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

Hi :)
I use a standard email client in a standard way set on it's defaults.  There 
are likely to be more people using such systems as LibreOffice becomes more 
popular.  Hold onto your hats!

Why are people in here so determined to make things unpleasant and difficult 
for normal office workers?  Is LibreOffice not meant to be used in offices by 
office workers?
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Thu, 8/9/11, Nuno J. Silva nunojsi...@ist.utl.pt wrote:

From: Nuno J. Silva nunojsi...@ist.utl.pt
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing 
List Guidelines Page?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 8 September, 2011, 19:33

-sigh- let's see if I can get this attribution thing
fixed... gnus-outlook-deuglify-article couldn't process this message

On 2011-09-08, Tom Davies wrote:
 On Thu, 8/9/11, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:
  On 9/8/11 11:37 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
  On 2011-09-08 11:14 AM Tom Davies wrote:
 
  Interspersing or bottom-posting ensures that every message needs to be
  scrolled through unless people delete all the stuff that is irrelevant
  (in their opinion, which 'might not' be the same as the opinion of the
  person reading). Top posting means that most emails can be read
  without any scrolling at all.
 
  Not true. You have to scroll down to see what is being responded to then
  scroll back up to see the response. Since you do not include proper
  attribution marks for the posts you respond to, the immediate message
  you respond to appears to be written by you.

Well, I guess if someone has a pretty damn good short term memory, then
we really don't need any context at all. That's right, we need ... erm,
what was I talking about again?

  Larry has just presented two other problems with top-posting.

 No, he didn't.  He just showed that he has not read any of the posts
 yet as his arguments are already countered in previous posts.

What was exactly your argument to support lack of proper
citation/attribution marks?

 Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting
 might be.  The fact is that it is widely used especially by office
 workers.  Do we want to stop office workers from using LibreOffice? 
 Alienating them would be a good way to get them to stay with whatever
 else they already use. 

Maybe we should instead teach office workers to use e-mail correctly.


 Betamax was a better format than VHS but it lost the battle for
 acceptance and now the argument is irrelevant anyway.  Perhaps it is
 similar with bottom posting.  It might be better but almost no-one in
 our target markets use it (note the almost there).  Most people
 would rather use forums anyway as mailing lists are ancient and
 out-dated. 

Unlike betamax and VHS, top-posted emails and bottom-posted emails are
both readable by the same kind of client, so that analogy won't work.

With betamax and VHS, unless you buy a VCR that supports both, or two
VCRs, you get to stick with the choice you made and you can't use the
other format.


 So, do we want to go the route of betamax, ie obscurity, or do we want
 to get LibreOffice out there and being used? 





 -- 
 Ken

 Mac OS X 10.6.8
 Firefox 6.0.2
 Thunderbird 6.0.2
 LibreOffice 3.3.3


 -- 
 For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
 Problems? 
 http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
 Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
 List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
 All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Can't you at least delete signatures?

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Tanstaafl


On 2011-09-08 2:10 PM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

No, he didn't.  He just showed that he has not read any of the  posts
yet as his arguments are already countered in previous posts.


Coming from you - someone who pretends that top posting advocates 
advocate blindly top-posting, when the reality is very different - that 
is really, really funny!


Rotflmao!

His arguments have not been countered by anything even remotely 
resembling logic or reason...


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Tanstaafl


On 2011-09-08 2:58 PM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

Why are people in here so determined to make things unpleasant and
difficult for normal office workers?


Why should 'normal office workers' be exempt from general rules of 
common courtesy?


Sorry, Tom, you're a lazy ass, and a liar to boot (demonstrated as much 
far too many times for it to be an accident)...


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Nuno J. Silva

On 2011-09-08, Tom Davies wrote:
 On 2011-09-08, Tom Davies wrote:
 Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting
 might be.  The fact is that it is widely used especially by office
 workers. 

 I use a standard email client in a standard way set on it's defaults. 
 There are likely to be more people using such systems as LibreOffice
 becomes more popular.  Hold onto your hats!

 Why are people in here so determined to make things unpleasant and
 difficult for normal office workers?  Is LibreOffice not meant to be
 used in offices by office workers?

LibreOffice is meant to be used by office workers, among other users. We
are just trying to make the mailing list a more pleasant place for
normal email users.

It's just that the mailing list is meant to be used by email users.

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Don C. Myers


Hi to all,

Some of you have convinced me to use top posting, since it is better. 
Some of you have convinced me to use bottom posting, since it is better. 
Some of you have convinced me to do snipping, since it is better. 
Obviously there isn't a black and white solution.


*My Big Concern* here is how are we being perceived by those who come 
here for help by the amount of time that has been spent on this thread 
today. I was one of the first responders last night. Never did I dream 
when I went to bed last night my inbox will be filled with a discussion 
like this today. People come here for help. People come here to help 
others. If this was the first day I came to this list, and I saw all of 
this and my problem being somewhat trivialized by all of this 
discussion, I would be out of hear.


Is it not time to put this to rest and move on with the business this 
list was created for?


I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, but quite honestly, I'm sure 
a newcomer hear today would not be at all impressed with a list that has 
done a tremendous amount of good for LibreOffice and provided great help 
to many people in the past.


Don

On 09/08/2011 02:58 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
I use a standard email client in a standard way set on it's defaults.  There 
are likely to be more people using such systems as LibreOffice becomes more 
popular.  Hold onto your hats!

Why are people in here so determined to make things unpleasant and difficult 
for normal office workers?  Is LibreOffice not meant to be used in offices by 
office workers?
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Thu, 8/9/11, Nuno J. Silvanunojsi...@ist.utl.pt  wrote:

From: Nuno J. Silvanunojsi...@ist.utl.pt
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing 
List Guidelines Page?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 8 September, 2011, 19:33

-sigh- let's see if I can get this attribution thing
fixed... gnus-outlook-deuglify-article couldn't process this message

On 2011-09-08, Tom Davies wrote:

On Thu, 8/9/11, Ken Springersnowsh...@q.com  wrote:

On 9/8/11 11:37 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote:

On 2011-09-08 11:14 AM Tom Davies wrote:


Interspersing or bottom-posting ensures that every message needs to be
scrolled through unless people delete all the stuff that is irrelevant
(in their opinion, which 'might not' be the same as the opinion of the
person reading). Top posting means that most emails can be read
without any scrolling at all.

Not true. You have to scroll down to see what is being responded to then
scroll back up to see the response. Since you do not include proper
attribution marks for the posts you respond to, the immediate message
you respond to appears to be written by you.

Well, I guess if someone has a pretty damn good short term memory, then
we really don't need any context at all. That's right, we need ... erm,
what was I talking about again?


Larry has just presented two other problems with top-posting.

No, he didn't.  He just showed that he has not read any of the posts
yet as his arguments are already countered in previous posts.

What was exactly your argument to support lack of proper
citation/attribution marks?


Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting
might be.  The fact is that it is widely used especially by office
workers.  Do we want to stop office workers from using LibreOffice? 
Alienating them would be a good way to get them to stay with whatever

else they already use.

Maybe we should instead teach office workers to use e-mail correctly.


Betamax was a better format than VHS but it lost the battle for
acceptance and now the argument is irrelevant anyway.  Perhaps it is
similar with bottom posting.  It might be better but almost no-one in
our target markets use it (note the almost there).  Most people
would rather use forums anyway as mailing lists are ancient and
out-dated.

Unlike betamax and VHS, top-posted emails and bottom-posted emails are
both readable by the same kind of client, so that analogy won't work.

With betamax and VHS, unless you buy a VCR that supports both, or two
VCRs, you get to stick with the choice you made and you can't use the
other format.


So, do we want to go the route of betamax, ie obscurity, or do we want
to get LibreOffice out there and being used?





--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Can't you at least delete signatures?



--

*~~*
Don C. Myers
e-PRO Certified by the National Association of Realtors
Manager, Farm and Rural Property Division

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

Hi :)
Look, the interspersed answers from Larry are practically unidentifiable from 
the message.  By posting at the top (or bottom) it would have been clearer 
which were your answers.  

Sometimes interspersing becomes possible if i notice the other persons response 
is in a different colour but in plain text it just doesn't work without good 
spacing.  From the 1st discernible answer i clearly wasn't missing much this 
time tho!  Normally i think sure rudeness should not be answered at all.  

'Regards' from
Tom :)


--- On Thu, 8/9/11, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote:

From: Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List 
Guidelines Page?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 8 September, 2011, 19:38

On 2011-09-08 12:10 PM  Tom Davies wrote:
 Hi :)
 No, he didn't.  He just showed that he has not read any of the  posts yet as 
 his arguments are already countered in previous posts.
Bullshit. You continually do not show the proper attribution in the posts you 
reply to. You have not countered this in any post. This has been mentioned many 
times but you refuse to correct your email client behaviour.

 Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting might 
 be.  The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers.  Do we 
 want to stop office workers from using LibreOffice?  Alienating them would be 
 a good way to get them to stay with whatever else they already use.
What office workers do is irrelevant. How would support givers properly 
interspersing and trimming their replies keep office workers from using 
LibreOffice?

How would properly interspersing a reply to their questions alienate them?

 Betamax was a better format than VHS but it lost the battle for acceptance 
 and now the argument is irrelevant anyway.  Perhaps it is similar with bottom 
 posting.  It might be better but almost no-one in our target markets use it 
 (note the almost there).  Most people would rather use forums anyway as 
 mailing lists are ancient and out-dated.
And that statement is totally irrelevant to the question.

 So, do we want to go the route of betamax, ie obscurity, or do we want to get 
 LibreOffice out there and being used?
How is the request to people giving support to properly intersperse and trim 
have anything to do with getting people to use LibreOffice?



-- _

Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - 
Edgard Varese



-- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

Hi :)
+1
Regards from
Tom :)

--- On Thu, 8/9/11, Don C. Myers donmy...@myersfarm.com wrote:

From: Don C. Myers donmy...@myersfarm.com
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing 
List Guidelines Page?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Thursday, 8 September, 2011, 20:09

Hi to all,

Some of you have convinced me to use top posting, since it is better. Some of 
you have convinced me to use bottom posting, since it is better. Some of you 
have convinced me to do snipping, since it is better. Obviously there isn't a 
black and white solution.

*My Big Concern* here is how are we being perceived by those who come here for 
help by the amount of time that has been spent on this thread today. I was one 
of the first responders last night. Never did I dream when I went to bed last 
night my inbox will be filled with a discussion like this today. People come 
here for help. People come here to help others. If this was the first day I 
came to this list, and I saw all of this and my problem being somewhat 
trivialized by all of this discussion, I would be out of hear.

Is it not time to put this to rest and move on with the business this list was 
created for?

I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, but quite honestly, I'm sure a 
newcomer hear today would not be at all impressed with a list that has done a 
tremendous amount of good for LibreOffice and provided great help to many 
people in the past.

Don

On 09/08/2011 02:58 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
 Hi :)
 I use a standard email client in a standard way set on it's defaults.  There 
 are likely to be more people using such systems as LibreOffice becomes more 
 popular.  Hold onto your hats!

 Why are people in here so determined to make things unpleasant and difficult 
 for normal office workers?  Is LibreOffice not meant to be used in offices by 
 office workers?
 Regards from
 Tom :)

 --- On Thu, 8/9/11, Nuno J. Silvanunojsi...@ist.utl.pt  wrote:

 From: Nuno J. Silvanunojsi...@ist.utl.pt
 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing 
 List Guidelines Page?
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Date: Thursday, 8 September, 2011, 19:33

 -sigh- let's see if I can get this attribution thing
 fixed... gnus-outlook-deuglify-article couldn't process this message

 On 2011-09-08, Tom Davies wrote:
 On Thu, 8/9/11, Ken Springersnowsh...@q.com  wrote:
 On 9/8/11 11:37 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
 On 2011-09-08 11:14 AM Tom Davies wrote:

 Interspersing or bottom-posting ensures that every message needs to be
 scrolled through unless people delete all the stuff that is irrelevant
 (in their opinion, which 'might not' be the same as the opinion of the
 person reading). Top posting means that most emails can be read
 without any scrolling at all.
 Not true. You have to scroll down to see what is being responded to then
 scroll back up to see the response. Since you do not include proper
 attribution marks for the posts you respond to, the immediate message
 you respond to appears to be written by you.
 Well, I guess if someone has a pretty damn good short term memory, then
 we really don't need any context at all. That's right, we need ... erm,
 what was I talking about again?

 Larry has just presented two other problems with top-posting.
 No, he didn't.  He just showed that he has not read any of the posts
 yet as his arguments are already countered in previous posts.
 What was exactly your argument to support lack of proper
 citation/attribution marks?

 Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting
 might be.  The fact is that it is widely used especially by office
 workers.  Do we want to stop office workers from using LibreOffice? 
 Alienating them would be a good way to get them to stay with whatever
 else they already use.
 Maybe we should instead teach office workers to use e-mail correctly.

 Betamax was a better format than VHS but it lost the battle for
 acceptance and now the argument is irrelevant anyway.  Perhaps it is
 similar with bottom posting.  It might be better but almost no-one in
 our target markets use it (note the almost there).  Most people
 would rather use forums anyway as mailing lists are ancient and
 out-dated.
 Unlike betamax and VHS, top-posted emails and bottom-posted emails are
 both readable by the same kind of client, so that analogy won't work.

 With betamax and VHS, unless you buy a VCR that supports both, or two
 VCRs, you get to stick with the choice you made and you can't use the
 other format.

 So, do we want to go the route of betamax, ie obscurity, or do we want
 to get LibreOffice out there and being used?

 -- Ken

 Mac OS X 10.6.8
 Firefox 6.0.2
 Thunderbird 6.0.2
 LibreOffice 3.3.3

 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
 Problems? 
 http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
 Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

On 2011-09-08 1:12 PM Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
Look, the interspersed answers from Larry are practically unidentifiable from
the message. By posting at the top (or bottom) it would have been clearer
which were your answers.
Every line of the post I am replying to has a in front of it if using a plain text reader. In
thunderbird as I have it configured there is a coloured vertical line before all of the text I
am replying to and not in front of my reply. I was giving specific answers to each part of your
post. Interspersing makes it clear what specific point I was responding to.

Sometimes interspersing becomes possible if i notice the other persons response
is in a different colour but in plain text it just doesn't work without good
spacing. From the 1st discernible answer i clearly wasn't missing much this
time tho! Normally i think sure rudeness should not be answered at all.
It is rude to not fix your quote attributions after many asked to do so countless times. It is
rude to not follow standard netiquette and continue to obstinately top post despite many requests.

You should also delete the signatures at the bottom of the posts. When using plain text a
properly configured email client automatically deletes everything after the delimiter (-- ).

--
_

Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. -
Edgard Varese

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

On 2011-09-08 12:58 PM Tom Davies wrote:

Hi:)
I use a standard email client in a standard way set on it's defaults. There
are likely to be more people using such systems as LibreOffice becomes more
popular. Hold onto your hats!

The headers state that you are using YahooMailClassic/14.0.5
YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.315625
That is not an email client. That is an online web mail service (and a very poor one. Gmail
works much better).

It has been explained to you before how to change the settings.

Why are people in here so determined to make things unpleasant and difficult
for normal office workers?

Nobody is trying to make anything difficult for normal office workers.
When a regular poster refuses to follow standard netiquette they are making things difficult
for other support givers.

Is LibreOffice not meant to be used in offices by office workers?

Yes it is, and that point is irrelevant to this discussion.

--
_

Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. -
Edgard Varese

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 9/8/11 1:09 PM, Don C. Myers wrote:


Some of you have convinced me to use top posting, since it is better.
Some of you have convinced me to use bottom posting, since it is better.
Some of you have convinced me to do snipping, since it is better.
Obviously there isn't a black and white solution.


True, there isn't a 100% correct *absolute* *physical* solution as to 
the correct way to format.  The solution is for everyone in any 
particular newsgroup to follow the same criteria and agreed upon 
formatting rules.  AKA, the netiquette link at the bottom of every post. 
 And, notably, the link on to how to format and quote replies.


I got into a discussion about netiquette early on with a poster here, 
and in researching the issue, it just confirmed your statement about a 
black and white solution.


What was apparent was, each and every newsgroup I looked at, that had 
netiquette rules, insisted you follow those rules.  No one said their 
way was correct for *all* newsgroups.  Just that their rules were 
correct for their newsgroup, and you were expected to follow them.


For Tom, as much as I respect his knowledge about LO, he and others are 
so out of line in not following the rules for *this* newsgroup, I don't 
think it's funny.  How can these folks tell their children, coworkers, 
friends, to follow certain rules when they don't follow the rules here?



*My Big Concern* here is how are we being perceived by those who come
here for help by the amount of time that has been spent on this thread
today. I was one of the first responders last night. Never did I dream
when I went to bed last night my inbox will be filled with a discussion
like this today. People come here for help. People come here to help
others. If this was the first day I came to this list, and I saw all of
this and my problem being somewhat trivialized by all of this
discussion, I would be out of hear.


My perception if I was a new user, is if a thread is long, it must be 
something important enough to generate that much discussion.


But once I started reading the posts, and found that replies were here 
and there and spread all over the place, I'd get so frustrated trying to 
figure things out I'd just leave after awhile.


And that would certainly not help the LO cause.  :-)


I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, but quite honestly, I'm sure
a newcomer hear today would not be at all impressed with a list that has
done a tremendous amount of good for LibreOffice and provided great help
to many people in the past.


I certainly agree with you here.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 9/8/11 1:12 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi:)
Look, the interspersed answers from Larry are practically unidentifiable from 
the message.
 By posting at the top (or bottom) it would have been clearer which 
were your answers.


Sometimes interspersing becomes possible if i notice the other persons response 
is in a
 different colour but in plain text it just doesn't work without good 
spacing.  From the 1st
 discernible answer i clearly wasn't missing much this time tho! 
Normally i think sure

 rudeness should not be answered at all.

With all due respect Tom, the problem is you and the tools you've chosen 
to use for replying to newsgroups.  Yahoo Mail just plain sucks and 
doesn't properly do anything right for places like this.


I've not tried Gmail for something like newsgroups, but their 
conversational message display might work a bit better.


And Larry is quite right, with Thunderbird, you have proper attributions 
so figuring out who said what isn't all that hard.  :-)  And a helluva a 
lot easier than figuring it out from a top posted message.


FYI, this is another of your messages I've had to reformat manually 
because of your choice of tools.  Getting tired of it.  :-)



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?


On 9/8/11 12:10 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
snip


Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting might be.

 The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers.

So, if painting graffiti all over walls and buildings was widely done, 
you'd be OK with them painting graffiti all over *your* walls and buildings?


Just because something is widely practiced, doesn't make it right or 
acceptable.


Think about it, even when you use the different programs in the LO 
suite, you're following the rules aren't you?  :-)



Do we want to stop officeworkers from using LibreOffice?  Alienating them would 
be a

 good way to get them to stay with whatever else they already use.

Following the rules will not make them stop using LibreOffice.  Giving 
them an office package full of bugs that never get fixed, promising 
features that never arrive, and providing poor support is what will make 
them stop using Libre Office.


snip

Most people would rather use forums anyway as mailing lists are ancient 

and out-dated.

They may be ancient, but not necessarily out-dated.  It all depends on 
what is comfortable with the reader.  I had a hard time with LO's 
mailing list, and almost gave up and moved on.


Then, I learned about the Gmane interface, not from LO's (IMO their 
crappy website, which I will comment on in that group when I have some 
free time) but from a mailing list post.  Since then, except when things 
went south due to address changes, I've used exclusively since then. 
And will continue to do so.  Nabble can go the way of the Kiwi bird, for 
all I care!   :-D



So, do we want to go the route of betamax, ie obscurity, or do we want to get 
LibreOffice

 out there and being used?

If you provide a good, solid package, and just spread the word about it, 
it will be used.



Tom, what are you doing differently with your posts than you were doing 
earlier?  I use Thunderbird via Gmane, and your messages look just fine. 
 But when I hit Reply, each of your paragraphs turn into a 
loong  sentence that I have to reformat manually in order to 
write a legible,  and properly formatted (following the rules) reply.


It didn't used to be this way.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread e-letter

On 08/09/2011, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
 Hi :)
 Interspersing or bottom-posting ensures that every message needs to be
 scrolled through unless people delete all the stuff that is irrelevant (in
 their opinion, which 'might not' be the same as the opinion of the person
 reading).  Top posting means that most emails can be read without any
 scrolling at all.

Total nonsense.

The fact is the new generation have little regard/respect for the open
source community. There has been only one previous post that had the
grace to accept the ethos and adapt, instead of being lazy (i.e. for
digest mode users, message users+get-10...@global.libreoffice.org)

Apparently, increasing numbers are choosing to ignore convention. Such
people unable to adjust their own behaviour (e.g. choosing an
appropriate program) can probably not be relied upon to encourage
others (and use LO); the limit of their encouragement is: look you
can send m$ documents for free!

Onto another favourite topic: LO promotion.

Focus on corporate markets for LO is flawed, there are too many
factors to consider. If you complaint is to get LO to be a perfect m$
clone, please send your requests to m$.

Instead, the focus should be on individuals and flawless use odf documents.

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread e-letter

On 08/09/2011, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
...
 Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting might
 be.  The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers.  Do we
 want to stop office workers from using LibreOffice?  Alienating them would
 be a good way to get them to stay with whatever else they already use.


If those all-important office clerks are going to be dismayed by
posting rules, no point telling these people about the advantages of
LO; the response will most likely be: but m$ does it this way

 Betamax was a better format than VHS but it lost the battle for acceptance
 and now the argument is irrelevant anyway.  Perhaps it is similar with
 bottom posting.  It might be better but almost no-one in our target markets

Since when did office clerks constitute the LO target market???

 use it (note the almost there).  Most people would rather use forums
 anyway as mailing lists are ancient and out-dated.


It had to happen; the inevitable complaint about the lack of forums:
why are you here when the forums are elsewhere? Unsubscribe
instructions below...

-- 
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Don C. Myers


Hi All,

On 09/08/2011 04:23 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

*My Big Concern* here is how are we being perceived by those who come
here for help by the amount of time that has been spent on this thread
today. I was one of the first responders last night. Never did I dream
when I went to bed last night my inbox will be filled with a discussion
like this today. People come here for help. People come here to help
others. If this was the first day I came to this list, and I saw all of
this and my problem being somewhat trivialized by all of this
discussion, I would be out of here.


My perception if I was a new user, is if a thread is long, it must be 
something important enough to generate that much discussion.


But once I started reading the posts, and found that replies were here 
and there and spread all over the place, I'd get so frustrated trying 
to figure things out I'd just leave after awhile.


And that would certainly not help the LO cause. :-)


I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, but quite honestly, I'm sure
a newcomer here today would not be at all impressed with a list that has
done a tremendous amount of good for LibreOffice and provided great help
to many people in the past.


I certainly agree with you here. 


Thanks Ken!

Another thing. Does anyone actually read those links at the bottom? I'm 
not asking this facetiously. I joined this List probably about 5 months 
ago and have left a fair number of posts. I never, ever, once, looked at 
anything at the bottom. I never even thought about looking at anything 
down there. I would assume that is true for most folks. I did look at 
the links tonight, but am too far behind to click on them right now.


Don

--

***
*


--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?