Re: [libreoffice-users] Writer Callout Style settings

[John Kaufmann]

On 2021-07-25 16:54, Regina Henschel wrote:

John Kaufmann schrieb am 25.07.2021 um 15:49:

On 2021-07-23 20:30, Regina Henschel wrote:

Steve Edmonds schrieb am 18.07.2021 um 23:05:

...
Is it possible to set Writer callout text paragraph style (or default settings, 
if so where please.
This is to avoid having to change the font and left hand offset in every line 
callout one at a time.


No, it is not possible. Using the legacy callouts or the custom shape callouts 
makes no difference. You get always a shape and in Writer neither for the shape 
itself nor for the text in the shape styles are possible. You can only use 
direct formatting in Writer.


Your distinction between legacy callouts and custom shape callouts implies that 
the basic idea has been around for some time, and special callout shapes were 
added later. Do you recall when it started, and at what point someone was moved 
to add custom shapes?


The legacy callouts are a kind of text box. They exists from the beginning in 
StarOffice. Custom shapes are introduced in OpenOffice.org 2.0. They are part 
of the change from OpenOffice XML to ODF 1.0.

  In order to

understand the issue (and any possible deficiencies) further, I would like to:
  (4) try to understand when and why Vertical Callouts were added to the 
Drawing toolbar (but not made visible).


They are visible, if you have enabled support for East Asian languages in Tools > 
Options > Language Settings > Languages > Asian.


Perfect! Thank you! - This has been an important education.

Kind regards,
John

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writer Callout Style settings

[John Kaufmann]

Hi Philip,

On 2021-07-25 16:04, Philip Jackson wrote:

On 25/07/2021 15:49, John Kaufmann wrote:

On 2021-07-23 20:30, Regina Henschel wrote:

Steve Edmonds schrieb am 18.07.2021 um 23:05:

...
Is it possible to set Writer callout text paragraph style (or default settings, 
if so where please.
This is to avoid having to change the font and left hand offset in every line 
callout one at a time.


No, it is not possible. Using the legacy callouts or the custom shape callouts 
makes no difference. You get always a shape and in Writer neither for the shape 
itself nor for the text in the shape styles are possible. You can only use 
direct formatting in Writer.


Your distinction between legacy callouts and custom shape callouts implies that 
the basic idea has been around for some time, and special callout shapes were 
added later. Do you recall when it started, and at what point someone was moved 
to add custom shapes? In order to understand the issue (and any possible 
deficiencies) further, I would like to:
 (1) see the earliest Writer Guide and Help in which callouts are mentioned;
 (2) try to understand why special shapes were of more interest than style 
support;
 (3) try to understand the intended use of the "Callouts" toolbar, and why it 
has not been made visible;
 (4) try to understand when and why Vertical Callouts were added to the Drawing 
toolbar (but not made visible).


I've been intrigued by this thread. Callouts was something I'd never heard of 
but I've now found them quite useful. As far as documentation is concerned, I 
have an old file, GS42-GettingStartedLO.pdf, from 2014 in which a search for 
'callouts' gets several hits on 3 pages.


I don't have GS42, but do have GS60, and it seems the same: 6 instances of "callouts" and 
1 "callout" over 3 pages.



The first says "For more information, see the Draw Guide Chapter 7 Getting Started 
with Draw, or the Impress Guide Chapters 4, 5, and 6." ...


Check (p.183).



The next says "Click on the triangle to the right of the Callouts icon to open the 
Callouts toolbar for drawing".  So it would appear that the callouts toolbar is 
nothing more than a dropdown from the callouts icon in the Drawing toolbar.


Check (p.212): Yes-though note that "Callouts" is not shown in View=>Toolbars.

Now I think I understand why: "Toolbar" is a generic term for two related entities: groupings of commands (like 
"Callout" and "Vertical Callout") and groupings of command /options/ (like "Callout Shapes", Flowchart 
Shapes", "Star Shapes", ...).  Only groupings of *commands* are shown under View=>Toolbars.  Groupings of *command 
/options/* (what might be called 'option toolbars') are invoked only from their respective commands on the Drawing toolbar:
CalloutsBasic ShapesLines and ArrowsBlock Arrows
Flowchart   Symbol Shapes   Curves and Polygons Stars and 
Banners

[That answers my question (3) above.]



The 3rd page just shows that there are 2 callout icons on the Drawing toolbar. 
In fact, in my copy of Writer (6.4.7.2 in UbuntuStudio 20.04.2) there are those 
2 icons, one with a dropdown list of  7 icons (the toolbar?) and the other a 
single icon which gives a simple rectangular callout shape.


Check (p.330): Yes-though note that a third callout icon ("Vertical Callouts") 
is shown under:
View => Toolbars => Customize...  => Toolbars tab => 
It is:

   


Note that this command is enabled, but still does not show on the Drawing 
toolbar. So [question (4) above], why not?


Thanks for your reply, which nudged me a little closer to understanding this topic.  The 
fact that GS42 and GS60 are essentially identical in this regard (including the custom 
shapes, as opposed to what Regina called "the legacy callouts") suggests that 
finding the first mention of callouts [question (1) above] may not yield much additional 
information.  Still, it might be nice.  I am routinely amazed at how much lies beneath 
the surface of the LO project, waiting to be implemented or exploited.

Kind regards,
John

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writer Callout Style settings

[Regina Henschel]

Hi John,

John Kaufmann schrieb am 25.07.2021 um 15:49:

Hi Regina,

On 2021-07-23 20:30, Regina Henschel wrote:

Steve Edmonds schrieb am 18.07.2021 um 23:05:

...
Is it possible to set Writer callout text paragraph style (or default 
settings, if so where please.
This is to avoid having to change the font and left hand offset in 
every line callout one at a time.


No, it is not possible. Using the legacy callouts or the custom shape 
callouts makes no difference. You get always a shape and in Writer 
neither for the shape itself nor for the text in the shape styles are 
possible. You can only use direct formatting in Writer.


Your distinction between legacy callouts and custom shape callouts 
implies that the basic idea has been around for some time, and special 
callout shapes were added later. Do you recall when it started, and at 
what point someone was moved to add custom shapes?


The legacy callouts are a kind of text box. They exists from the 
beginning in StarOffice. Custom shapes are introduced in OpenOffice.org 
2.0. They are part of the change from OpenOffice XML to ODF 1.0.


 In order to
understand the issue (and any possible deficiencies) further, I would 
like to:
  (4) try to understand when and why Vertical Callouts were added to the 
Drawing toolbar (but not made visible).


They are visible, if you have enabled support for East Asian languages 
in Tools > Options > Language Settings > Languages > Asian.


Kind regards
Regina

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writer Callout Style settings

[Philip Jackson]

On 25/07/2021 15:49, John Kaufmann wrote:

Hi Regina,
On 2021-07-23 20:30, Regina Henschel wrote:

Steve Edmonds schrieb am 18.07.2021 um 23:05:

...
Is it possible to set Writer callout text paragraph style (or default settings, 
if so where please.
This is to avoid having to change the font and left hand offset in every line 
callout one at a time.


No, it is not possible. Using the legacy callouts or the custom shape callouts 
makes no difference. You get always a shape and in Writer neither for the shape 
itself nor for the text in the shape styles are possible. You can only use 
direct formatting in Writer.


Your distinction between legacy callouts and custom shape callouts implies that 
the basic idea has been around for some time, and special callout shapes were 
added later. Do you recall when it started, and at what point someone was moved 
to add custom shapes? In order to understand the issue (and any possible 
deficiencies) further, I would like to:
 (1) see the earliest Writer Guide and Help in which callouts are mentioned;
 (2) try to understand why special shapes were of more interest than style 
support;
 (3) try to understand the intended use of the "Callouts" toolbar, and why it 
has not been made visible;
 (4) try to understand when and why Vertical Callouts were added to the Drawing 
toolbar (but not made visible).


I've been intrigued by this thread. Callouts was something I'd never heard of 
but I've now found them quite useful. As far as documentation is concerned, I 
have an old file, GS42-GettingStartedLO.pdf, from 2014 in which a search for 
'callouts' gets several hits on 3 pages.

The first says "For more information, see the Draw Guide Chapter 7 Getting Started 
with Draw, or the Impress Guide Chapters 4, 5, and 6."   I don't have either of 
these two.

The next says "Click on the triangle to the right of the Callouts icon to open the 
Callouts toolbar for drawing".  So it would appear that the callouts toolbar is 
nothing more than a dropdown from the callouts icon in the Drawing toolbar.

The 3rd page just shows that there are 2 callout icons on the Drawing toolbar. 
In fact, in my copy of Writer (6.4.7.2 in UbuntuStudio 20.04.2) there are those 
2 icons, one with a dropdown list of  7 icons (the toolbar?) and the other a 
single icon which gives a simple rectangular callout shape.

Philip


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writer Callout Style settings

[John Kaufmann]

Hi Regina,

On 2021-07-23 20:30, Regina Henschel wrote:

Steve Edmonds schrieb am 18.07.2021 um 23:05:

...
Is it possible to set Writer callout text paragraph style (or default settings, 
if so where please.
This is to avoid having to change the font and left hand offset in every line 
callout one at a time.


No, it is not possible. Using the legacy callouts or the custom shape callouts 
makes no difference. You get always a shape and in Writer neither for the shape 
itself nor for the text in the shape styles are possible. You can only use 
direct formatting in Writer.


Your distinction between legacy callouts and custom shape callouts implies that 
the basic idea has been around for some time, and special callout shapes were 
added later. Do you recall when it started, and at what point someone was moved 
to add custom shapes? In order to understand the issue (and any possible 
deficiencies) further, I would like to:
 (1) see the earliest Writer Guide and Help in which callouts are mentioned;
 (2) try to understand why special shapes were of more interest than style 
support;
 (3) try to understand the intended use of the "Callouts" toolbar, and why it 
has not been made visible;
 (4) try to understand when and why Vertical Callouts were added to the Drawing 
toolbar (but not made visible).

Kind regards,
John

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writer Callout Style settings

[Steve Edmonds]

Thanks John and Regina for the help.
I have found an efficient way to inset multiple formatted callouts.
Insert and format the first one then copy/paste and edit the text for 
subsequent callouts.

Steve

On 24/07/2021 12:30, Regina Henschel wrote:

Hi Steve,

Steve Edmonds schrieb am 18.07.2021 um 23:05:

Hi.
Is it possible to set Writer callout text paragraph style (or default 
settings, if so where please.
This is to avoid having to change the font and left hand offset in 
every line callout one at a time.


No, it is not possible. Using the legacy callouts or the custom shape 
callouts makes no difference. You get always a shape and in Writer 
neither for the shape itself nor for the text in the shape styles are 
possible. You can only use direct formatting in Writer.


Kind regards
Regina




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writer Callout Style settings

[Regina Henschel]

Hi Steve,

Steve Edmonds schrieb am 18.07.2021 um 23:05:

Hi.
Is it possible to set Writer callout text paragraph style (or default 
settings, if so where please.
This is to avoid having to change the font and left hand offset in every 
line callout one at a time.


No, it is not possible. Using the legacy callouts or the custom shape 
callouts makes no difference. You get always a shape and in Writer 
neither for the shape itself nor for the text in the shape styles are 
possible. You can only use direct formatting in Writer.


Kind regards
Regina

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writer Callout Style settings

[John Kaufmann]

OK, Steve.
So:

I have View>Toolbars>Drawing enabled. In that I have 2 callout options, a 
speech bubble and a rectangular text callout. ...


That answers my two questions:
(1) You don't use a Callouts toolbar [contra the Help, confirming a bug there].
(2) Instead, from the Drawing toolbar [which is where I found them] you use 
these callout commands:





But [as I noted earlier] there /is/ a "Callouts" toolbar listed among the 
toolbars in:
View => Toolbars => Customize...
=> Toolbars tab => Target
I would love to know what that is about, and how to make that Callouts toolbar 
visible to use.

In the same vein [and I will bet related], there is also a callouts command 
that is *not* visible on the Drawing toolbar (though I suspect, if you check 
the Customize options, it is enabled and so should be visible):

   


IOW, if I had to guess, I suspect that callouts are not a completely 
implemented function, though they are a good beginning to extend text boxes 
into a special use case that will be very valuable when it is more functional. 
That would explain some things:
 *** the Help bug (probably had to be written before they really knew how it 
will turn out);
 *** a lack of style support that you expected (or requested) in your OP;
 *** a labelled but still unimplemented "Vertical Callouts" command;
 *** anomalies you have found, reflecting sparse user feedback. [Bugs can exist 
with lots of user feedback.]

That said, when I was trying to understand your OP, and callouts generally, my 
search led to this page -
"Callout Sidebars on LibreOffice"


- which uses a slightly different (but related) definition of "callout", presenting how 
to do /its/ callout function in LO without any special LO callout commands.  Both functions are 
useful, but it can only cause confusion to call both functions "callouts".

John


On 2021-07-23 16:58, Steve Edmonds wrote:

Thanks for the reply.
I have View>Toolbars>Drawing enabled. In that I have 2 callout options, a 
speech bubble and a rectangular text callout. Your icon set may differ.
I am using the callouts to annotate some images for reference in my explanation 
text.

If I add a rectangular text callout I can right click and edit some 
characteristics. With the callout selected, I can use the menu Format>Text Box 
and Shape.
Possibly callouts are still "in development" as, although my document units are 
cm and last week the callout properties were in cm, today callout properties are in 
inches.

There is also a funny quirk where callouts become invisible (but still there) 
when the anchor is not in an appropriate place.

Steve

On 24/07/2021 08:18, John Kaufmann wrote:

On 2021-07-18 17:05, Steve Edmonds wrote:


Is it possible to set Writer callout text paragraph style (or default settings, 
if so where please.
This is to avoid having to change the font and left hand offset in every line 
callout one at a time.


When I first saw this question, I had no clue what you were asking (having never used 
callouts), so looked forward to an answer, to at least help understand the question.  
When no answer came, I tried the LibreOffice 7.1 Help on "callout" -- and found 
it unhelpful:


"Opens the Callouts toolbar from which you can insert graphics into your 
document."


But that leaves these problems:
(1) It's not clear WHAT "Opens the Callouts toolbar" [apparent bug in the 
Help], and IAC:
(2) As installed (that is, in the default configuration), View=>Toolbars shows *no* 
"Callouts toolbar".

As for (1): *WHAT* opens the Callouts toolbar?

As for (2): The lack of a toolbar, which is supposed to exist, led me to:
View => Toolbars => Customize...
In the Toolbars tab, with , the  box shows 
"Callouts" among the possible tool bars, but gives no control (that I can see) for how to make 
it appear in the View=>Toolbars menu.

Further, after much searching, I found that the Drawing toolbar has these three 
apparently-relevant commands:
    "Callout Shapes"
    "Callouts"
    "Vertical Callouts"
(The command categories were found in a subsequent command search on "callout".)

But none of that gets any closer to /using/ these commands.  So, at the most 
basic level of use: How do you /invoke/ callouts? - via a Callouts toolbar or 
the Drawing toolbar? If you use a Callouts toolbar, how do you make it appear?

John



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writer Callout Style settings

[Steve Edmonds]

Thanks for the reply.
I have View>Toolbars>Drawing enabled. In that I have 2 callout options, 
a speech bubble and a rectangular text callout. Your icon set may differ.
I am using the callouts to annotate some images for reference in my 
explanation text.


If I add a rectangular text callout I can right click and edit some 
characteristics. With the callout selected, I can use the menu 
Format>Text Box and Shape.
Possibly callouts are still "in development" as, although my document 
units are cm and last week the callout properties were in cm, today 
callout properties are in inches.


There is also a funny quirk where callouts become invisible (but still 
there) when the anchor is not in an appropriate place.


Steve

On 24/07/2021 08:18, John Kaufmann wrote:

On 2021-07-18 17:05, Steve Edmonds wrote:

Is it possible to set Writer callout text paragraph style (or default 
settings, if so where please.
This is to avoid having to change the font and left hand offset in 
every line callout one at a time.


When I first saw this question, I had no clue what you were asking 
(having never used callouts), so looked forward to an answer, to at 
least help understand the question.  When no answer came, I tried the 
LibreOffice 7.1 Help on "callout" -- and found it unhelpful:


"Opens the Callouts toolbar from which you can insert graphics into 
your document."


But that leaves these problems:
(1) It's not clear WHAT "Opens the Callouts toolbar" [apparent bug in 
the Help], and IAC:
(2) As installed (that is, in the default configuration), 
View=>Toolbars shows *no* "Callouts toolbar".


As for (1): *WHAT* opens the Callouts toolbar?

As for (2): The lack of a toolbar, which is supposed to exist, led me to:
View => Toolbars => Customize...
In the Toolbars tab, with , the  box 
shows "Callouts" among the possible tool bars, but gives no control 
(that I can see) for how to make it appear in the View=>Toolbars menu.


Further, after much searching, I found that the Drawing toolbar has 
these three apparently-relevant commands:

    "Callout Shapes"
    "Callouts"
    "Vertical Callouts"
(The command categories were found in a subsequent command search on 
"callout".)


But none of that gets any closer to /using/ these commands.  So, at 
the most basic level of use: How do you /invoke/ callouts? - via a 
Callouts toolbar or the Drawing toolbar? If you use a Callouts 
toolbar, how do you make it appear?


John




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writer Callout Style settings

[John Kaufmann]

On 2021-07-18 17:05, Steve Edmonds wrote:


Is it possible to set Writer callout text paragraph style (or default settings, 
if so where please.
This is to avoid having to change the font and left hand offset in every line 
callout one at a time.


When I first saw this question, I had no clue what you were asking (having never used 
callouts), so looked forward to an answer, to at least help understand the question.  
When no answer came, I tried the LibreOffice 7.1 Help on "callout" -- and found 
it unhelpful:


"Opens the Callouts toolbar from which you can insert graphics into your 
document."


But that leaves these problems:
(1) It's not clear WHAT "Opens the Callouts toolbar" [apparent bug in the 
Help], and IAC:
(2) As installed (that is, in the default configuration), View=>Toolbars shows *no* 
"Callouts toolbar".

As for (1): *WHAT* opens the Callouts toolbar?

As for (2): The lack of a toolbar, which is supposed to exist, led me to:
View => Toolbars => Customize...
In the Toolbars tab, with , the  box shows 
"Callouts" among the possible tool bars, but gives no control (that I can see) for how to make 
it appear in the View=>Toolbars menu.

Further, after much searching, I found that the Drawing toolbar has these three 
apparently-relevant commands:
"Callout Shapes"
"Callouts"
"Vertical Callouts"
(The command categories were found in a subsequent command search on "callout".)

But none of that gets any closer to /using/ these commands.  So, at the most 
basic level of use: How do you /invoke/ callouts? - via a Callouts toolbar or 
the Drawing toolbar? If you use a Callouts toolbar, how do you make it appear?

John

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[libreoffice-users] Writer Callout Style settings

[Steve Edmonds]

Hi.
Is it possible to set Writer callout text paragraph style (or default 
settings, if so where please.
This is to avoid having to change the font and left hand offset in every 
line callout one at a time.

Thanks, Steve

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