Re: IT Geeks' Social Skills (was: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing windows explorer extension only)
Hello, Speaking as an Aspie myself, who helps fellow Aspies better work and live with others (and vice versa), thank you very much for your effort to understand. If I may: (1) You're right about its being Asperger Syndrome, named as it is after Dr. Hans Asperger who discovered it. It's also known as Asperger's Syndrome or Aspergers Syndrome. However, it does *not* contain the letter b, nor does it refer to any body part or popular fast food. =|8-} (2) Functional autism might be a phrase used by some laypeople to describe it. If you want to get more technical, it's an autism spectrum condition, along with High Functioning Autism, Semantic Pragmatic Disorder, Nonverbal Learning Disorder and Pervasive Developmental Disorder-Not Otherwise Specified (HFA, SPD, NLD/NVLD and PDD-NOS, respectively). Now that we've gotten the terminology out of the way... (3) You're right about Aspies not picking up on things that most others (neurotypicals, or NTs for short) absorb instinctively. Just as you rightly pointed out that social skills can be learned, so can the *need* to do so -- and not just in terms of avoiding getting fired, losing relationships and the like. Aspies have empathy just like any other non-sociopath/psychopath, and we can learn, say, how telling someone you don't like their food hurts their feelings even if we don't think it should. (4) Finally, thank you for calling for understanding and accommodation. Really, it goes both ways. We need to understand how NTs tick and how to better get along with them, and then act appropriately (in both senses of the term) as much as possible. Cheers, Jeff Deutsch Speaker Life Coach A SPLINT - ASPies LInking with NTs http://www.asplint.com Listen to the universe while it whispers before it has to shout. Marion Grobb Finkelstein, Communication Catalyst -- http://www.MarionSpeaks.com On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Jim Seymour jseym...@linxnet.com wrote: On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:52:18 +0100 Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] On a side-issue ... The ones where Urmas does help are often highly technical. That raises the question of whether Urmas is a dev and just socially clumsy as so many are. Apparently Microsoft have recognised that many engineers and devs have high functioning aspergers syndrome or, even further along the spectrum, autism ... [snip] Asperger Syndrome (it's properly capitalized) is often referred-to as functional autism. In any event: Yes, in the IT world it is quite common for technically talented people to exhibit impaired social skills. It's usually not intentional. Such people are simply wired in such a manner that social skills that are second nature to normal people are, quite simply, incomprehensible to them. Good examples of these are the TV show characters Dr. Gregory House, Dr. Sheldon Cooper and Dr. Martin Ellingham (Doc Martin). These characters are all portrayed as being brilliant in their fields, but socially inept to the point of being widely regarded as rude and unfeeling. (These characters portray behavioural extremes, but they are, after all, actors, and it is, after all, entertainment.) Such people can learn, to a degree, to work within commonly accepted social norms, but they will never, ever understand the *need* to do so, other than that failing to do so may have (potentially) adverse consequences. This is not to excuse behaviour clearly out-of-bounds, but more to explain the reality that, in a venue such as this, you're going to encounter such people. The only way to stop it entirely is to encourage them to go away. Then what are you left with? Who will answer your questions and solve your problems? The likes of telephone sanitizers, hairstylists, advertising executives and lawyers? ;) Regards, Jim -- Note: My mail server employs *very* aggressive anti-spam filtering. If you reply to this email and your email is rejected, please accept my apologies and let me know via my web form at http://jimsun.LinxNet.com/contact/scform.php. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
IT Geeks' Social Skills (was: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing windows explorer extension only)
On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:52:18 +0100 Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] On a side-issue ... The ones where Urmas does help are often highly technical. That raises the question of whether Urmas is a dev and just socially clumsy as so many are. Apparently Microsoft have recognised that many engineers and devs have high functioning aspergers syndrome or, even further along the spectrum, autism ... [snip] Asperger Syndrome (it's properly capitalized) is often referred-to as functional autism. In any event: Yes, in the IT world it is quite common for technically talented people to exhibit impaired social skills. It's usually not intentional. Such people are simply wired in such a manner that social skills that are second nature to normal people are, quite simply, incomprehensible to them. Good examples of these are the TV show characters Dr. Gregory House, Dr. Sheldon Cooper and Dr. Martin Ellingham (Doc Martin). These characters are all portrayed as being brilliant in their fields, but socially inept to the point of being widely regarded as rude and unfeeling. (These characters portray behavioural extremes, but they are, after all, actors, and it is, after all, entertainment.) Such people can learn, to a degree, to work within commonly accepted social norms, but they will never, ever understand the *need* to do so, other than that failing to do so may have (potentially) adverse consequences. This is not to excuse behaviour clearly out-of-bounds, but more to explain the reality that, in a venue such as this, you're going to encounter such people. The only way to stop it entirely is to encourage them to go away. Then what are you left with? Who will answer your questions and solve your problems? The likes of telephone sanitizers, hairstylists, advertising executives and lawyers? ;) Regards, Jim -- Note: My mail server employs *very* aggressive anti-spam filtering. If you reply to this email and your email is rejected, please accept my apologies and let me know via my web form at http://jimsun.LinxNet.com/contact/scform.php. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: IT Geeks' Social Skills (was: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing windows explorer extension only)
Yes, in the IT world it is quite common for technically talented people to exhibit impaired social skills. Not really, in my experience. It's common for IT people to *claim* to have Asperger Syndrome or some such, but it's not nearly as common as people think. My experience may be limited, but that still leaves us with.. whether Urmas is a dev and just socially clumsy as so many are. Most clearly not. His answers often are not just pro Microsoft or commercial software, but often derogatory of Open Source, and often outright wrong, not just in terms of beliefs that are known to be incorrect, but in terms of quoting actual facts that are wrong. Sometimes even quoted with references, showing that he went to some trouble to construct his false arguments. Maybe not often, but I'm sure I've seen it in the past. Which shows clearly that he is not just socially inept, but actually trying to troll. Equally, some of the off list messages that have recently been shown on this list are not just lacking in social graces, they are quite clearly rude and obscene. So I suggest... The only way to stop it entirely is to encourage them to go away. That this would be a good idea. Despite the question of... Then what are you left with? Who will answer your questions and solve your problems? Other people. I've only seen Urmas be usefull I think twice, and in those cases I really don't know how useful his information actually was. Potentially very, I suppose, but I don't feel the need to keep him around just for that. But that's only my opinion, of course. Spreading FUD is one thing, but being abusive and using obscene language I don't really want to have to put up with. But that said, we're stuck with... the reality that, in a venue such as this, you're going to encounter such people. Unfortunate but true. I once asked if we could ban Urmas, and was told no, he'd just come back in a new guise. I'm still not sure how I feel about this, but unfortunately it is quite likely true that even if we did ban him, he would just sign up again under a new name. He seems intent on trolling this list. And at least at the moment we all mostly know who he is and know to just ignore his stuff. As this is the internet, and therefor devoid (rightly so) of physical involvement, there really is nothing we can do to *make* him stop, not so long as the list is public. Best we could do would be to moderate everything, and just not let his stuff past moderation, but that takes effort on someone's part. I'm not willing to go to all that trouble myself, so I'd rather just ignore him. I'm not sure what Tom Cloyd is thinking of here, but he seems to have an idea about how to proceed. Personally, I don't think it will work, but I'd still be willing to hear it. And if one doesn't think one should be trying to intimidate Urmas into leaving, what on earth makes one think one should be intimidating Tom Cloyd into leaving? Name calling and nastiness doesn't belong on this list, in my opinion. If people get tedious, speak your mind, tell them politely what your opinion is, preferably make a constructive suggestion, then leave it be. If you can't change their mind, ignore them. This is a public list, you are free to ignore whatever part of it you want. Just my thoughts on a matter that has the potential to spiral out of control. Feel free to disagree, but politely, please. Or to ignore it, if you so wish. Paul On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:57:57 -0400 Jim Seymour jseym...@linxnet.com wrote: On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:52:18 +0100 Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] On a side-issue ... The ones where Urmas does help are often highly technical. That raises the question of whether Urmas is a dev and just socially clumsy as so many are. Apparently Microsoft have recognised that many engineers and devs have high functioning aspergers syndrome or, even further along the spectrum, autism ... [snip] Asperger Syndrome (it's properly capitalized) is often referred-to as functional autism. In any event: Yes, in the IT world it is quite common for technically talented people to exhibit impaired social skills. It's usually not intentional. Such people are simply wired in such a manner that social skills that are second nature to normal people are, quite simply, incomprehensible to them. Good examples of these are the TV show characters Dr. Gregory House, Dr. Sheldon Cooper and Dr. Martin Ellingham (Doc Martin). These characters are all portrayed as being brilliant in their fields, but socially inept to the point of being widely regarded as rude and unfeeling. (These characters portray behavioural extremes, but they are, after all, actors, and it is, after all, entertainment.) Such people can learn, to a degree, to work within commonly accepted social norms, but they will never, ever understand the *need* to do so, other than that failing to do so may have (potentially) adverse consequences. This is not to
Re: IT Geeks' Social Skills (was: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing windows explorer extension only)
I see these arguments in my emails, and peruse some, but generally once I have the gist of things, I press delete! But it does not put me off, trying to sell the idea of free, to my customers, and say there is lots of support out there etc. When I say sell the idea, I mean compare the the well known version, and libre... Usually quoting Spanish for freee yes big emphasis on free I see the same on the other forums as we'll, ie gimp, Inkscape etc, and it disheartens me that someone has to upset the applecart. Recently I made an error, in not reading what was on my screen with libre, but the support I got was great, and positive feedback for all involved But I guess the with a price for free means that someone will try and take advantage Phil On Sunday, May 11, 2014, Paul paulste...@afrihost.co.za wrote: Yes, in the IT world it is quite common for technically talented people to exhibit impaired social skills. Not really, in my experience. It's common for IT people to *claim* to have Asperger Syndrome or some such, but it's not nearly as common as people think. My experience may be limited, but that still leaves us with.. whether Urmas is a dev and just socially clumsy as so many are. Most clearly not. His answers often are not just pro Microsoft or commercial software, but often derogatory of Open Source, and often outright wrong, not just in terms of beliefs that are known to be incorrect, but in terms of quoting actual facts that are wrong. Sometimes even quoted with references, showing that he went to some trouble to construct his false arguments. Maybe not often, but I'm sure I've seen it in the past. Which shows clearly that he is not just socially inept, but actually trying to troll. Equally, some of the off list messages that have recently been shown on this list are not just lacking in social graces, they are quite clearly rude and obscene. So I suggest... The only way to stop it entirely is to encourage them to go away. That this would be a good idea. Despite the question of... Then what are you left with? Who will answer your questions and solve your problems? Other people. I've only seen Urmas be usefull I think twice, and in those cases I really don't know how useful his information actually was. Potentially very, I suppose, but I don't feel the need to keep him around just for that. But that's only my opinion, of course. Spreading FUD is one thing, but being abusive and using obscene language I don't really want to have to put up with. But that said, we're stuck with... the reality that, in a venue such as this, you're going to encounter such people. Unfortunate but true. I once asked if we could ban Urmas, and was told no, he'd just come back in a new guise. I'm still not sure how I feel about this, but unfortunately it is quite likely true that even if we did ban him, he would just sign up again under a new name. He seems intent on trolling this list. And at least at the moment we all mostly know who he is and know to just ignore his stuff. As this is the internet, and therefor devoid (rightly so) of physical involvement, there really is nothing we can do to *make* him stop, not so long as the list is public. Best we could do would be to moderate everything, and just not let his stuff past moderation, but that takes effort on someone's part. I'm not willing to go to all that trouble myself, so I'd rather just ignore him. I'm not sure what Tom Cloyd is thinking of here, but he seems to have an idea about how to proceed. Personally, I don't think it will work, but I'd still be willing to hear it. And if one doesn't think one should be trying to intimidate Urmas into leaving, what on earth makes one think one should be intimidating Tom Cloyd into leaving? Name calling and nastiness doesn't belong on this list, in my opinion. If people get tedious, speak your mind, tell them politely what your opinion is, preferably make a constructive suggestion, then leave it be. If you can't change their mind, ignore them. This is a public list, you are free to ignore whatever part of it you want. Just my thoughts on a matter that has the potential to spiral out of control. Feel free to disagree, but politely, please. Or to ignore it, if you so wish. Paul On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:57:57 -0400 Jim Seymour jseym...@linxnet.com wrote: On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:52:18 +0100 Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com javascript:; wrote: [snip] On a side-issue ... The ones where Urmas does help are often highly technical. That raises the question of whether Urmas is a dev and just socially clumsy as so many are. Apparently Microsoft have recognised that many engineers and devs have high functioning aspergers syndrome or, even further along the spectrum, autism ... [snip] Asperger Syndrome (it's properly capitalized) is often referred-to as functional autism. In any event: Yes, in the IT
Re: IT Geeks' Social Skills (was: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing windows explorer extension only)
Hi :) Disagreements are fine imo. They lead to discussions and maybe even to thinking in a new way or taking on new ideas. Often we just get entrenched in old thought-patterns but at least the other people on the mailing list can then assess the qualities of the ideas. Clearly me and Tom disagree on some things but i already consider him yet another person who was just a friend i just hadn't met yet. As i find so many on this list are. I find myself agreeing with a lot of what Paul said and i'm glad to hear Philip's points. I don't think that intimidation is a good idea and hopefully it's unfeasible anyway. I'd rather see people deal with it humorously or calmly and maybe giving better links to counter the Fud. Ideally i would like to be calm myself or be able to stop myself posting long angry rants. Regards from Tom :) On 11 May 2014 19:14, Philip Ward skegg...@gmail.com wrote: I see these arguments in my emails, and peruse some, but generally once I have the gist of things, I press delete! But it does not put me off, trying to sell the idea of free, to my customers, and say there is lots of support out there etc. When I say sell the idea, I mean compare the the well known version, and libre... Usually quoting Spanish for freee yes big emphasis on free I see the same on the other forums as we'll, ie gimp, Inkscape etc, and it disheartens me that someone has to upset the applecart. Recently I made an error, in not reading what was on my screen with libre, but the support I got was great, and positive feedback for all involved But I guess the with a price for free means that someone will try and take advantage Phil On Sunday, May 11, 2014, Paul paulste...@afrihost.co.za wrote: Yes, in the IT world it is quite common for technically talented people to exhibit impaired social skills. Not really, in my experience. It's common for IT people to *claim* to have Asperger Syndrome or some such, but it's not nearly as common as people think. My experience may be limited, but that still leaves us with.. whether Urmas is a dev and just socially clumsy as so many are. Most clearly not. His answers often are not just pro Microsoft or commercial software, but often derogatory of Open Source, and often outright wrong, not just in terms of beliefs that are known to be incorrect, but in terms of quoting actual facts that are wrong. Sometimes even quoted with references, showing that he went to some trouble to construct his false arguments. Maybe not often, but I'm sure I've seen it in the past. Which shows clearly that he is not just socially inept, but actually trying to troll. Equally, some of the off list messages that have recently been shown on this list are not just lacking in social graces, they are quite clearly rude and obscene. So I suggest... The only way to stop it entirely is to encourage them to go away. That this would be a good idea. Despite the question of... Then what are you left with? Who will answer your questions and solve your problems? Other people. I've only seen Urmas be usefull I think twice, and in those cases I really don't know how useful his information actually was. Potentially very, I suppose, but I don't feel the need to keep him around just for that. But that's only my opinion, of course. Spreading FUD is one thing, but being abusive and using obscene language I don't really want to have to put up with. But that said, we're stuck with... the reality that, in a venue such as this, you're going to encounter such people. Unfortunate but true. I once asked if we could ban Urmas, and was told no, he'd just come back in a new guise. I'm still not sure how I feel about this, but unfortunately it is quite likely true that even if we did ban him, he would just sign up again under a new name. He seems intent on trolling this list. And at least at the moment we all mostly know who he is and know to just ignore his stuff. As this is the internet, and therefor devoid (rightly so) of physical involvement, there really is nothing we can do to *make* him stop, not so long as the list is public. Best we could do would be to moderate everything, and just not let his stuff past moderation, but that takes effort on someone's part. I'm not willing to go to all that trouble myself, so I'd rather just ignore him. I'm not sure what Tom Cloyd is thinking of here, but he seems to have an idea about how to proceed. Personally, I don't think it will work, but I'd still be willing to hear it. And if one doesn't think one should be trying to intimidate Urmas into leaving, what on earth makes one think one should be intimidating Tom Cloyd into leaving? Name calling and nastiness doesn't belong on this list, in my opinion. If people get tedious, speak your mind, tell them politely what your opinion is, preferably make a constructive
