Hi :) Disagreements are fine imo. They lead to discussions and maybe even to thinking in a new way or taking on new ideas. Often we just get entrenched in old thought-patterns but at least the other people on the mailing list can then assess the qualities of the ideas.
Clearly me and Tom disagree on some things but i already consider him yet another person who was just a friend i just hadn't met yet. As i find so many on this list are. I find myself agreeing with a lot of what Paul said and i'm glad to hear Philip's points. I don't think that intimidation is a good idea and hopefully it's unfeasible anyway. I'd rather see people deal with it humorously or calmly and maybe giving better links to counter the Fud. Ideally i would like to be calm myself or be able to stop myself posting long angry rants. Regards from Tom :) On 11 May 2014 19:14, Philip Ward <[email protected]> wrote: > I see these arguments in my emails, and peruse some, but generally once I > have the gist of things, I press delete! But it does not put me off, trying > to sell the idea of free, to my customers, and say there is lots of support > out there etc. > > When I say sell the idea, I mean compare the the well known version, and > libre... Usually quoting "Spanish for freeeeeeeeeee" yes big emphasis on > freeeeeeeeee > > I see the same on the other forums as we'll, ie gimp, Inkscape etc, and it > disheartens me that someone has to upset the applecart. > > Recently I made an error, in not reading what was on my screen with libre, > but the support I got was great, and positive feedback for all involved > > But I guess the with a price for freeeeee means that someone will try and > take advantage > > Phil > > On Sunday, May 11, 2014, Paul <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Yes, in the IT world it is > > > quite common for technically talented people to exhibit impaired > > > social skills. > > Not really, in my experience. It's common for IT people to *claim* to > > have Asperger Syndrome or some such, but it's not nearly as common as > > people think. My experience may be limited, but that still leaves us > > with.. > > > > > > whether Urmas is a dev and just socially > > > > clumsy as so many are. > > Most clearly not. His answers often are not just pro Microsoft or > > commercial software, but often derogatory of Open Source, and often > > outright wrong, not just in terms of beliefs that are known to be > > incorrect, but in terms of quoting actual facts that are wrong. > > Sometimes even quoted with references, showing that he went to some > > trouble to construct his false arguments. Maybe not often, but I'm sure > > I've seen it in the past. Which shows clearly that he is not just > > socially inept, but actually trying to troll. Equally, some of the off > > list messages that have recently been shown on this list are not just > > lacking in social graces, they are quite clearly rude and obscene. So I > > suggest... > > > > >The only way to stop it entirely is to > > > encourage them to go away. > > That this would be a good idea. Despite the question of... > > > > > Then what are you left with? Who will > > > answer your questions and solve your problems? > > Other people. I've only seen Urmas be usefull I think twice, and in > > those cases I really don't know how useful his information actually > > was. Potentially very, I suppose, but I don't feel the need to keep him > > around just for that. But that's only my opinion, of course. Spreading > > FUD is one thing, but being abusive and using obscene language I don't > > really want to have to put up with. But that said, we're stuck with... > > > > > the reality that, in a venue such as this, you're going to > > > encounter such people. > > Unfortunate but true. I once asked if we could ban Urmas, and was told > > no, he'd just come back in a new guise. I'm still not sure how I feel > > about this, but unfortunately it is quite likely true that even if we > > did ban him, he would just sign up again under a new name. He seems > > intent on trolling this list. And at least at the moment we all mostly > > know who he is and know to just ignore his stuff. > > > > As this is the internet, and therefor devoid (rightly so) of physical > > involvement, there really is nothing we can do to *make* him stop, > > not so long as the list is public. Best we could do would be to > > moderate everything, and just not let his stuff past moderation, but > > that takes effort on someone's part. I'm not willing to go to all that > > trouble myself, so I'd rather just ignore him. > > > > I'm not sure what Tom Cloyd is thinking of here, but he seems to have an > > idea about how to proceed. Personally, I don't think it will work, but > > I'd still be willing to hear it. And if one doesn't think one should be > > trying to intimidate Urmas into leaving, what on earth makes one think > > one should be intimidating Tom Cloyd into leaving? Name calling and > > nastiness doesn't belong on this list, in my opinion. If people get > > tedious, speak your mind, tell them politely what your opinion is, > > preferably make a constructive suggestion, then leave it be. If you > > can't change their mind, ignore them. This is a public list, you are > > free to ignore whatever part of it you want. > > > > Just my thoughts on a matter that has the potential to spiral out of > > control. Feel free to disagree, but politely, please. Or to ignore it, > > if you so wish. > > > > Paul > > > > > > On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:57:57 -0400 > > Jim Seymour <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:52:18 +0100 > > > Tom Davies <[email protected] <javascript:;>> wrote: > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > On a side-issue ... > > > > The ones where Urmas does help are often highly technical. That > > > > raises the question of whether Urmas is a dev and just socially > > > > clumsy as so many are. Apparently Microsoft have recognised that > > > > many engineers and devs have "high functioning" aspergers syndrome > > > > or, even further along the spectrum, autism ... > > > [snip] > > > > > > Asperger Syndrome (it's properly capitalized) is often referred-to > > > as "functional autism." In any event: Yes, in the IT world it is > > > quite common for technically talented people to exhibit impaired > > > social skills. It's usually not intentional. Such people are simply > > > wired in such a manner that social skills that are second nature to > > > "normal" people are, quite simply, incomprehensible to them. Good > > > examples of these are the TV show characters Dr. Gregory House, Dr. > > > Sheldon Cooper and Dr. Martin Ellingham ("Doc Martin"). These > > > characters are all portrayed as being brilliant in their fields, but > > > socially inept to the point of being widely regarded as rude and > > > unfeeling. (These characters portray behavioural extremes, but they > > > are, after all, actors, and it is, after all, entertainment.) > > > > > > Such people can learn, to a degree, to work within commonly accepted > > > social norms, but they will never, ever understand the *need* to do > > > so, other than that failing to do so may have (potentially) adverse > > > consequences. > > > > > > This is not to excuse behaviour clearly out-of-bounds, but more to > > > explain the reality that, in a venue such as this, you're going to > > > encounter such people. The only way to stop it entirely is to > > > encourage them to go away. Then what are you left with? Who will > > > answer your questions and solve your problems? The likes of > > > telephone sanitizers, hairstylists, advertising executives and > > > lawyers? ;) > > > > > > Regards, > > > Jim > > > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe e-mail to: [email protected] > <javascript:;> > > Problems? > > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > > deleted > > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: [email protected] > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: [email protected] Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
