Re: Good article on systemd

2016-10-04 Thread Rex Dieter 
Tim wrote:

> Allegedly, on or about 01 October 2016, Ed Greshko sent:
>> Maybe the point Rex was making was simply that discussion could be had
>> and frustrations could be vented but minus the Ad Hominem attacks?
> 
> Dunno.

There is no dunno here, it is clear our community does not condone personal 
attacks. Even if you think they are justified, they are not welcome... 
*here*.

-- Rex

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Re: Good article on systemd

2016-10-03 Thread Tim 
Allegedly, on or about 01 October 2016, Ed Greshko sent:
> Maybe the point Rex was making was simply that discussion could be had
> and frustrations could be vented but minus the Ad Hominem attacks? 

Dunno.  The willful blindness to its problems, and lack of concern about
it's shortcomings, and blaming everyone else but themselves, seemed
direct and to the point, not some ill thought out insult.

Seriously, when your software is the root cause of all manner of
problems, *IT* is the problem.

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.9.10-100.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Sun Jul 14 01:31:27 UTC 2013 x86_64

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no point trying to privately email me, I only get to see the messages
posted to the mailing list.

Damn, I didn't mean to press *that* button!


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Re: Good article on systemd

2016-09-30 Thread Joe Zeff 

On 09/30/2016 02:58 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:

I have complete faith that this is going to correct itself, over time.
It won't happen soon, but these things typically work themselves out in
long term. Currently, systemd has mindshare in most Linux distros. But
that can always change, and I think it will. And then, systemd will
eventually join XFree86 on the ash heap of history; and it will be
interesting to see if systemd will take Red Hat down with it. Red Hat
has bet its farm on systemd; and it remains to be seen how far they will
ride the bomb (Google it).


Maybe I should write an article entitled How I Learned to Stop Worrying 
and Work With SystemD.  Then, if I'm lucky, my parts, my dressing rooms 
and my paychecks will all get larger.

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Re: Good article on systemd

2016-09-30 Thread Sam Varshavchik 

Justin Moore writes:

Several people have raised this on the MythTV lists and provided feedback to  
the systemd developers. Last I heard their response was "this isn't broken  
because we don't know that it's a virtual network interface and we can't wait  
for ALL the network interfaces to come up because  reasons. Closed:  
Working As Intended."



The work-around was to buy a UPS for that machine because the #1 cause of  
reboots was flaky power in our neighborhood. No reboots ~> fewer chances for  
systemd to do the wrong thing.



Sadly I think the power company will fix the distribution infrastructure in  
our neighborhood before systemd gets this working correctly.


I have no doubt that there are people who find systemd useful for one reason  
or another, and they are so thrilled with joy is that they will choose to  
willingly defend its merits in public.


But I can't name one off the top of my head. The systemd advocates that I've  
read – in my experience they were either directly, or closely, involved  
with the project.


The converse is true, for the other side. Of all the spilled ink that I  
read, I can't give one name of anyone who's involved, in any way, with  
anything that might be considered as competing with systemd's mind share, in  
any way, shape, or matter. I see people from all walks of life, find  
something or other that's fundamentally wrong with it. Either its  
fundamental technical flaws, or the fact that it takes ten bleeping seconds  
to figure out if one service is running, or not. The only thing they ever  
have in common is that if they raise it through the official channels, the  
response they usually get is not exactly professional. 

For example, let's take your specific case here. I note that the follow-up  
response to the article I cited made some kind of tenuous comparison with  
the Linux kernel, in some form or fashion, that I found quite hard to  
follow. I can't help but recall that the Linux kernel maintains blacklists  
of devices, by their USB or ATAPI id, of some sort, when those specific  
devices fail to implement some key aspect of the relevant hardware protocol.  
The blacklisted devices are fully supported, except for some obscure  
featureset for which there's a fallback alternate implementation, which is  
used.


I even recall one newsworthy incident several years ago. Chipmaker FTDI  
makes USB bridge chips, and a Windows driver for them. Naturally, a bunch of  
cheap knockoffs of the hardware flooded the market. Since Windows already  
had a driver in the base OS, it was plug and play with the clones. Then,  
FTDI released a driver update that bricked the cheap clones, by  
intentionally wiping the bridge chips' NVRAM, and setting their USB  
manufacturer id to . Anyway, some time later the Linux kernel was  
patched to recognize the phony manufacturer id, and fully support it. The  
incident you described reminded me of that episode, for some reason.


Anyway, back to your situation: the responsible, and user friendly, thing to  
do here would also be to maintain a known blacklist of virtual network  
interfaces that are not true network interfaces, and ignore them. Just like  
the Linux kernel would do in a comparable situation. I'm sure that this is  
eminently possible. That's what I would do. Then, the main functionality of  
systemd will work as intended. This is the proper way to go, instead of the  
stock "too bad, so sad, your system is going to be bleeked up because we are  
smarter, and we know better" response.


I have complete faith that this is going to correct itself, over time. It  
won't happen soon, but these things typically work themselves out in long  
term. Currently, systemd has mindshare in most Linux distros. But that can  
always change, and I think it will. And then, systemd will eventually join  
XFree86 on the ash heap of history; and it will be interesting to see if  
systemd will take Red Hat down with it. Red Hat has bet its farm on systemd;  
and it remains to be seen how far they will ride the bomb (Google it).




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Re: Good article on systemd

2016-09-30 Thread Ed Greshko 


On 10/01/16 05:52, Rick Stevens wrote:
> On 09/30/2016 01:47 PM, Rex Dieter wrote:
>> Sam Varshavchik wrote:
>>> ... This type of an intentional blind spot is quite typical,
>>> inside the systemd reality distortion field.
>> Comments like that are neither considerate or respectful, and are not 
>> welcome in the fedora community.
>>
>> https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct
>>
>> I encourage any moderators to take note, and close the thread if necessary.
> Rex, the last time everybody agreed on things was in the late 1930's in
> Germany, and that really didn't turn out all that well now, did it?
>
Maybe the point Rex was making was simply that discussion could be had and 
frustrations
could be vented but minus the Ad Hominem attacks?



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Re: Good article on systemd

2016-09-30 Thread Rick Stevens 
On 09/30/2016 01:47 PM, Rex Dieter wrote:
> Sam Varshavchik wrote:
>> ... This type of an intentional blind spot is quite typical,
>> inside the systemd reality distortion field.
> 
> Comments like that are neither considerate or respectful, and are not 
> welcome in the fedora community.
> 
> https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct
> 
> I encourage any moderators to take note, and close the thread if necessary.

Rex, the last time everybody agreed on things was in the late 1930's in
Germany, and that really didn't turn out all that well now, did it?

We need some place to vent our frustrations since no one seems to
listen to those of us who actually USE the system and try to get some
real work done rather than treating it as an experiment. After all,
eventually Fedora becomes RHEL (and CentOS), so this isn't trivial
stuff! It affects what will we will be using for years.

In my opinion and speaking as a system administrator and programmer
with over 45 years of experience (as well as having served on four
highly contentious ANSI committees), systemd is overly complicated,
burdensome and just plain broken in many areas. It never should have
been adopted in its current state. It isn't "baked" enough.
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Re: Good article on systemd

2016-09-30 Thread Rex Dieter 
Sam Varshavchik wrote:
> ... This type of an intentional blind spot is quite typical,
> inside the systemd reality distortion field.

Comments like that are neither considerate or respectful, and are not 
welcome in the fedora community.

https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct

I encourage any moderators to take note, and close the thread if necessary.

-- Rex
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Re: Good article on systemd

2016-09-30 Thread Robert P. J. Day 
On Fri, 30 Sep 2016, Tom Horsley wrote:

> On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 13:31:39 -0400
> Justin Moore wrote:
>
> > Sadly I think the power company will fix the distribution
> > infrastructure in our neighborhood before systemd gets this
> > working correctly.
>
> But as you see, it already works correctly :-). The systemd
> developers believe that all services should automatically reconfigure
> themselves when the network changes. Of course, to do that, they
> all need to link with systemd dependent DBUS interfaces so as
> to make the systemd fungus grow larger and larger and eventually
> engulph all programs everywhere.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLhoXJWE4ps

rday

-- 


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http://crashcourse.ca

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Re: Good article on systemd

2016-09-30 Thread Joe Zeff 

On 09/30/2016 11:37 AM, Tom Horsley wrote:

to make the systemd fungus grow larger and larger and eventually
engulph all programs everywhere.


The time to start worrying is when you learn that your text editors are 
dependent on systemd.

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Re: Good article on systemd

2016-09-30 Thread Tom Horsley 
On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 13:31:39 -0400
Justin Moore wrote:

> Sadly I think the power company will fix the distribution infrastructure in
> our neighborhood before systemd gets this working correctly.

But as you see, it already works correctly :-). The systemd
developers believe that all services should automatically reconfigure
themselves when the network changes. Of course, to do that, they
all need to link with systemd dependent DBUS interfaces so as
to make the systemd fungus grow larger and larger and eventually
engulph all programs everywhere.
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Re: Good article on systemd

2016-09-30 Thread Justin Moore 
>
> Tom Horsley writes:
>
> On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 10:29:51 -0400
>> Saint Michael wrote:
>>
>> > In short, the most recent update to Centos7, makes Mariadb unable to
>> start
>> > in both versions that use systemd.
>> > This affects millions of users. I had to replace my container for a
>> Fedora
>> > 22 one, and lower ,my version of Mariadb.
>> > Does anybody of any work around?
>>
>> I have vast numbers of things in my rc.local file to delay a
>> bit then restart services that never start correctly (mainly
>> because systemd has no idea when the network is in fact "up").
>>
>
> I find that the following wait-for-network.service is fairly bulletproof:
>
> [Unit]
> Description=Wait for network ports to be initialized
> Before=network.target network-online.target
> After=network.service
> Wants=network.target
>
> [Service]
> Type=oneshot
> ExecStart=/usr/bin/true
>
> [Install]
> WantedBy=multi-user.target
>
> Then, enable this, and network-online.target.
>

I have this configured on my F23 machine running MythTV. This doesn't work
since I have a Ceton InfiniTV cable capture card. The card's driver
presents itself as a virtual network interface, and once that comes up,
systemd is like, "whelp, I'm done here!" and proceeds to start everything
else which requires a network connection. This means that anything which
does a "bind to all network interfaces" between the time that the virtual
network interface comes up (uSecs) and the DHCP response comes back with
the actual external network interface address (mSecs) *doesn't actually
bind to an external network interface*.

Several people have raised this on the MythTV lists and provided feedback
to the systemd developers. Last I heard their response was "this isn't
broken because we don't know that it's a virtual network interface and we
can't wait for ALL the network interfaces to come up because  reasons.
Closed: Working As Intended."

The work-around was to buy a UPS for that machine because the #1 cause of
reboots was flaky power in our neighborhood. No reboots ~> fewer chances
for systemd to do the wrong thing.

Sadly I think the power company will fix the distribution infrastructure in
our neighborhood before systemd gets this working correctly.

-jdm


>
> Whatever the hell that is.
>
> NetworkManager-wait-online.service is not enough. Whatever the hell that
> is, too.
>
> Speaking of that:
>
> # time systemctl status NetworkManager-wait-online.service
> ● NetworkManager-wait-online.service - Network Manager Wait Online
>   Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/NetworkManager-wait-online.service;
> d
>   Active: active (exited) since Sat 2016-09-24 09:51:13 EDT; 6 days ago
> Docs: man:nm-online(1)
>  Process: 1072 ExecStart=/usr/bin/nm-online -s -q --timeout=30
> (code=exited, st
> Main PID: 1072 (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
>Tasks: 0 (limit: 512)
>   CGroup: /system.slice/NetworkManager-wait-online.service
>
> Sep 24 09:51:04 octopus.email-scan.com systemd[1]: Starting Network
> Manager Wait
> Sep 24 09:51:13 octopus.email-scan.com systemd[1]: Started Network
> Manager Wait
>
> real0m12.133s
> user0m0.016s
> sys 0m0.063s
>
> I'll give two seconds of credit for me hitting Enter (because, for some
> reason, systemctl apparently pipes its output to "less").
>
> But the end result that it takes ten seconds for systemd to tell me the
> status of a single service.
>
> That's state-of-the-art system management, for you.
>
> For all the bombast about systemd being the future of system management,
> it is utter. complete. total. unquestionable. crap.
>
> I have no axe to grind. I am not involved with either systemd, or any
> competing project, if there is one. I have no personal grudges with anyone
> involved with systemd. Aside from Poettering, I can't even give you even
> one other name who's involved with it.
>
> I just call them as I see them.
>
> And as much as it pains me to say this: $dayjob$ just rolled out Linux as
> a supported platform for employees' laptops, to complement Windows 7 and
> Macs. Their distribution image is the systemd-free Ubuntu 14, despite us
> being a CentOS shop. The reason is very simple: after I type in the
> password to unlocks the LUKS-encrypted partition, it takes about three
> seconds to get to the KDM prompt. After logging in, the KDE Plasma
> workbench is ready for user action in about three more seconds. I'm
> depressed.
>
>
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Re: Good article on systemd

2016-09-30 Thread Rick Stevens 
On 09/30/2016 09:55 AM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
> Tom Horsley writes:
> 
>> On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 10:29:51 -0400
>> Saint Michael wrote:
>>
>> > In short, the most recent update to Centos7, makes Mariadb unable to
>> start
>> > in both versions that use systemd.
>> > This affects millions of users. I had to replace my container for a
>> Fedora
>> > 22 one, and lower ,my version of Mariadb.
>> > Does anybody of any work around?
>>
>> I have vast numbers of things in my rc.local file to delay a
>> bit then restart services that never start correctly (mainly
>> because systemd has no idea when the network is in fact "up").
> 
> I find that the following wait-for-network.service is fairly bulletproof:
> 
> [Unit]
> Description=Wait for network ports to be initialized
> Before=network.target network-online.target
> After=network.service
> Wants=network.target
> 
> [Service]
> Type=oneshot
> ExecStart=/usr/bin/true
> 
> [Install]
> WantedBy=multi-user.target
> 
> Then, enable this, and network-online.target.
> 
> Whatever the hell that is.
> 
> NetworkManager-wait-online.service is not enough. Whatever the hell that
> is, too.
> 
> Speaking of that:
> 
> # time systemctl status NetworkManager-wait-online.service
> ● NetworkManager-wait-online.service - Network Manager Wait Online
>   Loaded: loaded
> (/usr/lib/systemd/system/NetworkManager-wait-online.service; d
>   Active: active (exited) since Sat 2016-09-24 09:51:13 EDT; 6 days ago
> Docs: man:nm-online(1)
>  Process: 1072 ExecStart=/usr/bin/nm-online -s -q --timeout=30
> (code=exited, st
> Main PID: 1072 (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
>Tasks: 0 (limit: 512)
>   CGroup: /system.slice/NetworkManager-wait-online.service
> 
> Sep 24 09:51:04 octopus.email-scan.com systemd[1]: Starting Network
> Manager Wait
> Sep 24 09:51:13 octopus.email-scan.com systemd[1]: Started Network
> Manager Wait
> 
> real0m12.133s
> user0m0.016s
> sys0m0.063s
> 
> I'll give two seconds of credit for me hitting Enter (because, for some
> reason, systemctl apparently pipes its output to "less").
> 
> But the end result that it takes ten seconds for systemd to tell me the
> status of a single service.
> 
> That's state-of-the-art system management, for you.
> 
> For all the bombast about systemd being the future of system management,
> it is utter. complete. total. unquestionable. crap.

Hear, hear! Haven't I been saying this ever since they foisted this POS
on us?

My father once defined "quaint" as "overpriced, uncomfortable and
inconvenient". systemd/systemctl (and for that matter
journald/journalctl) fit that definition fairly well, except I'd also
have to add "overly complex and f**king broken" to my dad's criteria.
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Re: Good article on systemd

2016-09-30 Thread Sam Varshavchik 

Tom Horsley writes:


On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 10:29:51 -0400
Saint Michael wrote:

> In short, the most recent update to Centos7, makes Mariadb unable to start
> in both versions that use systemd.
> This affects millions of users. I had to replace my container for a Fedora
> 22 one, and lower ,my version of Mariadb.
> Does anybody of any work around?

I have vast numbers of things in my rc.local file to delay a
bit then restart services that never start correctly (mainly
because systemd has no idea when the network is in fact "up").


I find that the following wait-for-network.service is fairly bulletproof:

[Unit]
Description=Wait for network ports to be initialized
Before=network.target network-online.target
After=network.service
Wants=network.target

[Service]
Type=oneshot
ExecStart=/usr/bin/true

[Install]
WantedBy=multi-user.target

Then, enable this, and network-online.target.

Whatever the hell that is.

NetworkManager-wait-online.service is not enough. Whatever the hell that is,  
too.


Speaking of that:

# time systemctl status NetworkManager-wait-online.service
● NetworkManager-wait-online.service - Network Manager Wait Online
  Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/NetworkManager-wait- 
online.service; d

  Active: active (exited) since Sat 2016-09-24 09:51:13 EDT; 6 days ago
Docs: man:nm-online(1)
 Process: 1072 ExecStart=/usr/bin/nm-online -s -q --timeout=30  
(code=exited, st

Main PID: 1072 (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
   Tasks: 0 (limit: 512)
  CGroup: /system.slice/NetworkManager-wait-online.service

Sep 24 09:51:04 octopus.email-scan.com systemd[1]: Starting Network Manager  
Wait
Sep 24 09:51:13 octopus.email-scan.com systemd[1]: Started Network Manager  
Wait


real0m12.133s
user0m0.016s
sys 0m0.063s

I'll give two seconds of credit for me hitting Enter (because, for some  
reason, systemctl apparently pipes its output to "less").


But the end result that it takes ten seconds for systemd to tell me the  
status of a single service.


That's state-of-the-art system management, for you.

For all the bombast about systemd being the future of system management, it  
is utter. complete. total. unquestionable. crap.


I have no axe to grind. I am not involved with either systemd, or any  
competing project, if there is one. I have no personal grudges with anyone  
involved with systemd. Aside from Poettering, I can't even give you even one  
other name who's involved with it.


I just call them as I see them.

And as much as it pains me to say this: $dayjob$ just rolled out Linux as a  
supported platform for employees' laptops, to complement Windows 7 and Macs.  
Their distribution image is the systemd-free Ubuntu 14, despite us being a  
CentOS shop. The reason is very simple: after I type in the password to  
unlocks the LUKS-encrypted partition, it takes about three seconds to get to  
the KDM prompt. After logging in, the KDE Plasma workbench is ready for user  
action in about three more seconds. I'm depressed.




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Re: Good article on systemd

2016-09-30 Thread Tom Horsley 
On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 10:29:51 -0400
Saint Michael wrote:

> In short, the most recent update to Centos7, makes Mariadb unable to start
> in both versions that use systemd.
> This affects millions of users. I had to replace my container for a Fedora
> 22 one, and lower ,my version of Mariadb.
> Does anybody of any work around?

I have vast numbers of things in my rc.local file to delay a
bit then restart services that never start correctly (mainly
because systemd has no idea when the network is in fact "up").

Things like this:


/bin/bash -c 'sleep 5 ; service ypbind restart' > /dev/null 2>&1 < /dev/null &

/bin/bash -c 'sleep 10 ; service nscd restart' > /dev/null 2>&1 < /dev/null &

/bin/bash -c 'sleep 15 ; service ntpd restart' > /dev/null 2>&1 < /dev/null &

...
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Re: Good article on systemd

2016-09-30 Thread Saint Michael 
The issue is systemd+mariadb. Anything higher than Fedora 22 may have the
same issue.


On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Chris Murphy 
wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Sep 30, 2016, 8:31 AM Saint Michael  wrote:
>
>> Systemd made me stop using Centos 7.
>> https://jira.mariadb.org/browse/MDEV-10925?page=com.
>> atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Aall-tabpanel
>> In short, the most recent update to Centos7, makes Mariadb unable to
>> start in both versions that use systemd.
>> This affects millions of users. I had to replace my container for a
>> Fedora 22 one, and lower ,my version of Mariadb.
>> Does anybody of any work around?
>>
>>
>
> Replace the container with Fedora 24 and raise the version of Mariadb?
>
> Fedora 22 is EOL.
>
>
> Chris Murphy
>
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Re: Good article on systemd

2016-09-30 Thread Sam Varshavchik 

Glenn Holmer writes:


On 09/30/2016 07:41 AM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
> Pretty much says everything there is to say about systemd, in one
> compact article:
>
> https://www.agwa.name/blog/post/how_to_crash_systemd_in_one_tweet

https://medium.com/@davidtstrauss/how-to-throw-a-tantrum-in-one-blog-post- 
c2ccaa58661d#.8cem83295


That response appears to be written by a systemd developer, so it's not  
exactly surprising. And the writer immediately goes into a contradiction:


# Things that interact regularly with PID 1 over a bus or socket but are  
# isolated by process and privileges. This includes a handful things, like  
# logind and the journal.


Which he had to begrudgingly admits later, is not exactly true:

# This is a reasonable request, and I’ve been pushing for more modularity  
# around parsing for a while.


Except that he fails again. This is not about parsing. He then goes and  
builds a big house of cards, focusing on parsing, etc… The problem with a  
simple command crashing PID 1 is that it's just a parsing problem.


Year, right. This type of an intentional blind spot is quite typical, inside  
the systemd reality distortion field.


Besides, throwing a well-deserved temper tantrum is not such a bad thing.



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Re: Good article on systemd

2016-09-30 Thread Chris Murphy 
On Fri, Sep 30, 2016, 8:31 AM Saint Michael  wrote:

> Systemd made me stop using Centos 7.
>
> https://jira.mariadb.org/browse/MDEV-10925?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Aall-tabpanel
> In short, the most recent update to Centos7, makes Mariadb unable to start
> in both versions that use systemd.
> This affects millions of users. I had to replace my container for a Fedora
> 22 one, and lower ,my version of Mariadb.
> Does anybody of any work around?
>
>

Replace the container with Fedora 24 and raise the version of Mariadb?

Fedora 22 is EOL.


Chris Murphy
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Re: Good article on systemd

2016-09-30 Thread Saint Michael 
Systemd made me stop using Centos 7.
https://jira.mariadb.org/browse/MDEV-10925?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Aall-tabpanel
In short, the most recent update to Centos7, makes Mariadb unable to start
in both versions that use systemd.
This affects millions of users. I had to replace my container for a Fedora
22 one, and lower ,my version of Mariadb.
Does anybody of any work around?



On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 9:05 AM, Glenn Holmer  wrote:

> On 09/30/2016 07:41 AM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
> > Pretty much says everything there is to say about systemd, in one
> > compact article:
> >
> > https://www.agwa.name/blog/post/how_to_crash_systemd_in_one_tweet
>
> https://medium.com/@davidtstrauss/how-to-throw-a-tantrum-in-one-blog-post-
> c2ccaa58661d#.8cem83295
>
> --
> Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
> "After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."
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Re: Good article on systemd

2016-09-30 Thread Glenn Holmer 
On 09/30/2016 07:41 AM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
> Pretty much says everything there is to say about systemd, in one
> compact article:
> 
> https://www.agwa.name/blog/post/how_to_crash_systemd_in_one_tweet

https://medium.com/@davidtstrauss/how-to-throw-a-tantrum-in-one-blog-post-c2ccaa58661d#.8cem83295

-- 
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
"After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."
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