Re: Error installing any program using yum

2010-02-06 Thread Richard Cahilig
Hi,

SE LInux has been disabled but I still have this problem.


Regards,

Richard R. Cahilig

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 7:29 AM, Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com wrote:

 --- On Fri, 2/5/10, Richard Cahilig r.cahi...@gmail.com wrote:

  From: Richard Cahilig r.cahi...@gmail.com
  Subject: Error installing any program using yum
  To: Community assistance, encouragement, and advice for using Fedora. 
 fedora-l...@redhat.com
  Date: Friday, February 5, 2010, 2:58 PM
  Hi,
 
  I have problem in my newly installed fedora 12. I got this
  error every time I tried to install anything via yum:
 
 
  [r...@localhost User]# yum update
  Loaded plugins: presto, refresh-packagekit
  Error: Cannot retrieve repository metadata (repomd.xml) for
  repository: fedora. Please verify its path and try again
 
 
  Below is the contents of my /etc/yum.repos.d/fedora.repo
 
  [snip]


 Try turning off (or lowering its protection) SELinux.  On my initial
 install of F12, I had to turn it off to update, and configure several
 things.  Over the years SELinux has caused me so many problems, that I
 either don't install it, uninstall it or turn it off.


 B

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Re: Error installing any program using yum

2010-02-06 Thread Suvayu Ali
On Friday 05 February 2010 02:58 PM, Richard Cahilig wrote:
 Hi,

 I have problem in my newly installed fedora 12. I got this error every time
 I tried to install anything via yum:

Are you behind a proxy? If so, you need to set `proxy url' in 
/etc/yum.conf. See `man yum.conf'.

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Re: Error installing any program using yum

2010-02-06 Thread Richard Cahilig
Hi,

No, I'm not behind a proxy.


Regards,

Richard R. Cahilig

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Suvayu Ali
fatkasuvayu+li...@gmail.comfatkasuvayu%2bli...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 On Friday 05 February 2010 02:58 PM, Richard Cahilig wrote:
  Hi,
 
  I have problem in my newly installed fedora 12. I got this error every
 time
  I tried to install anything via yum:

 Are you behind a proxy? If so, you need to set `proxy url' in
 /etc/yum.conf. See `man yum.conf'.

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Re: How do I use the drupal installed via yum?

2010-02-06 Thread Gavin Simpson
On 5 February 2010 20:23, Sam Sharpe lists.red...@samsharpe.net wrote:
 On 5 February 2010 20:12, Dave Ihnat dih...@dminet.com wrote:
 On Fri, Feb 05, 2010 at 05:01:18PM +, Gavin Simpson wrote:
 Thanks. Yes, apache2. Not sure what you mean by the sites available 
 directory.

 In stock Apache, configuration information is in /etc/apache2.  Websites
 are defined in httpd.conf fragments in a directory entitled
 sites-available; sites that are used in the active configuration are
 linked from files in sites-available in the directory sites-enabled.
 Sorry, right now I don't have a Fedora system up to check if they mucked
 with the stock configuration.
snip /

 In particular, the Drupal that is available through Fedora is
 configured in /etc/httpd/conf.d/drupal.conf

Thanks Sam, that was the bit I was missing. Didn't occur to me to look
in httpd/conf.d/ but having looked at the drupal.conf file I now see
how the Fedora/EPEL drupal package works with the rest of the system.

Much appreciated.

G
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Re: Error installing any program using yum

2010-02-06 Thread Frank Murphy
On 06/02/10 10:02, Richard Cahilig wrote:
 Hi,

 No, I'm not behind a proxy.


--snip--

Have you ran yum clean metadata


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Re: Error installing any program using yum

2010-02-06 Thread Richard Cahilig
Hi,

Yes, and I even ran the yum clean all command.


Regards,

Richard R. Cahilig

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Frank Murphy frankl...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 06/02/10 10:02, Richard Cahilig wrote:
  Hi,
 
  No, I'm not behind a proxy.
 
 
 --snip--

 Have you ran yum clean metadata


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Re: Error installing any program using yum

2010-02-06 Thread Ed Greshko
Richard Cahilig wrote:
 Hi,

 Yes, and I even ran the yum clean all command.
Should we assume that you are connecting to gmail from the system you
are trying to update?

Almost every time I've seen someone with the error you report in your
initial post it is due to either a network misconfiguration or a DNS
problem.


 Regards,

 Richard R. Cahilig

 On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Frank Murphy frankl...@gmail.com
 mailto:frankl...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 06/02/10 10:02, Richard Cahilig wrote:
  Hi,
 
  No, I'm not behind a proxy.
 
 
 --snip--

 Have you ran yum clean metadata


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Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.

2010-02-06 Thread Kevin Kofler
Brian Mury wrote:
 I disagree. As I posted earlier in this thread, my 9200 (rv280) does
 *not* work with the current drivers. Booting with KMS I get 2D and 3D
 that are both so slow they are unusable for many tasks (even watching a
 low resolution video pins the CPU and drops more frames than it plays).
 Booting with UMS I get good speed, but random X crashes - and 3D will
 almost always completely freeze the computer. I end up having to reboot
 just so I can, say, run Google Earth for a couple minutes, then reboot
 again to continue with what I was doing before.

I have a ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200 SE] (rev 01) and I'm 
running F12 with KMS enabled, 2D works perfectly, 3D is sometimes a bit 
stuttery (i.e. it freezes on a frame for a small fraction of a second, not 
enough to be seen as an outright freeze, but enough to be seen as frame 
jumping), but otherwise it just works. It did have several issues (crashes, 
assertion failures) on F11, and there was one assertion failure in Extreme 
Tux Racer in the F12 release, but that got fixed in the updates. (But it's 
true F10 was best. The drivers got refactored to work with the latest X11 
driver technologies and there were some regressions in the process.)

Now if you're expecting a performance beast, perhaps you're expecting too 
much from a Radeon 9200? (FYI, even current Intel integrated chipsets 
(GM965) perform better.)

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Error installing any program using yum

2010-02-06 Thread Richard Cahilig
Hi,

Yes, I'm connecting to gmail from this system that I'm trying to update. I
even tried OpenDNS with I still have the same problem. I don't what is
causing this problem.


Regards,

Richard R. Cahilig

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Ed Greshko ed.gres...@greshko.com wrote:

 Richard Cahilig wrote:
  Hi,
 
  Yes, and I even ran the yum clean all command.
 Should we assume that you are connecting to gmail from the system you
 are trying to update?

 Almost every time I've seen someone with the error you report in your
 initial post it is due to either a network misconfiguration or a DNS
 problem.
 
 
  Regards,
 
  Richard R. Cahilig
 
  On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Frank Murphy frankl...@gmail.com
  mailto:frankl...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  On 06/02/10 10:02, Richard Cahilig wrote:
   Hi,
  
   No, I'm not behind a proxy.
  
  
  --snip--
 
  Have you ran yum clean metadata
 
 
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  Regards,
 
  Frank Murphy
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Re: Error installing any program using yum

2010-02-06 Thread Ed Greshko
Richard Cahilig wrote:
 Hi,

 Yes, I'm connecting to gmail from this system that I'm trying to
 update. I even tried OpenDNS with I still have the same problem. I
 don't what is causing this problem.
I see

So, if you put this URL in your browser it will attempt to download a
file called metalink?

https://mirrors.fedoraproject.org/metalink?repo=fedora-$releaseverarch=$basearch
https://mirrors.fedoraproject.org/metalink?repo=fedora-$releaseverarch=$basearch


 Regards,

 Richard R. Cahilig

 On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Ed Greshko ed.gres...@greshko.com
 mailto:ed.gres...@greshko.com wrote:

 Richard Cahilig wrote:
  Hi,
 
  Yes, and I even ran the yum clean all command.
 Should we assume that you are connecting to gmail from the system you
 are trying to update?

 Almost every time I've seen someone with the error you report in your
 initial post it is due to either a network misconfiguration or a DNS
 problem.
 
 
  Regards,
 
  Richard R. Cahilig
 
  On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Frank Murphy
 frankl...@gmail.com mailto:frankl...@gmail.com
  mailto:frankl...@gmail.com mailto:frankl...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  On 06/02/10 10:02, Richard Cahilig wrote:
   Hi,
  
   No, I'm not behind a proxy.
  
  
  --snip--
 
  Have you ran yum clean metadata
 
 
  --
  Regards,
 
  Frank Murphy
  UTF_8 Encoded
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Re: Problem with a large partition

2010-02-06 Thread aragonx
 Later on in your message, you have the following:
 uname -a
 Linux ftp.temp.org 2.6.31.5-127.fc12.i686 #1 SMP Sat Nov 7 21:41:45 EST
 2009 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux

 It APPEARS that you are not running the 64bit version of Fedora.

ACK!  Stupid server tricked me.  It did not have a DVD drive so I couldn't
use my usual Fedora 12 DVD which is X64.  I downloaded the live CD and
assumed that it was 64bit.  :/  Thank you for pointing that out.  Time for
a reinstall.

---
Will Y.



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Stoopid script failure

2010-02-06 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan
Can anyone explain why this doesn't work? I've been writing shell
scripts on and off for several decades and I can't see what's going on
here. Is senility setting it?

$ cat  tst
#!/bin/sh
echo foo
$ chmod +x tst
$ ls -l tst
-rwxrwxr-x 1 poc poc 19 2010-02-06 10:22 tst
$ type tst
tst is ./tst
$ tst
bash: ./tst: Permission denied

(SElinux is off, if it matters).

poc

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Re: Stoopid script failure

2010-02-06 Thread Waleed Harbi
*Try:
#./tst

#file tst
tst: Bourne shell script text executable


*--
Best Wishes,
Waleed Harbi

Dream | Do | Be


On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan
pocallag...@gmail.comwrote:

 Can anyone explain why this doesn't work? I've been writing shell
 scripts on and off for several decades and I can't see what's going on
 here. Is senility setting it?

 $ cat  tst
 #!/bin/sh
 echo foo
 $ chmod +x tst
 $ ls -l tst
 -rwxrwxr-x 1 poc poc 19 2010-02-06 10:22 tst
 $ type tst
 tst is ./tst
 $ tst
 bash: ./tst: Permission denied

 (SElinux is off, if it matters).

 poc

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Re: Stoopid script failure

2010-02-06 Thread Ed Greshko
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
 Can anyone explain why this doesn't work? I've been writing shell
 scripts on and off for several decades and I can't see what's going on
 here. Is senility setting it?

 $ cat  tst
 #!/bin/sh
 echo foo
 $ chmod +x tst
 $ ls -l tst
 -rwxrwxr-x 1 poc poc 19 2010-02-06 10:22 tst
 $ type tst
 tst is ./tst
 $ tst
 bash: ./tst: Permission denied

 (SElinux is off, if it matters).

   
I'm fairly sure you need the ./tst incantation unless you have . in your
$PATH.  I recall somewhere, sometime a warning against thatbut I've
ignored it for years and haven't had a problem.  I even forgot what the
warning was all about.




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Re: Stoopid script failure

2010-02-06 Thread inode0
On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan
pocallag...@gmail.com wrote:
 Can anyone explain why this doesn't work? I've been writing shell
 scripts on and off for several decades and I can't see what's going on
 here. Is senility setting it?

 $ cat  tst
 #!/bin/sh
 echo foo
 $ chmod +x tst
 $ ls -l tst
 -rwxrwxr-x 1 poc poc 19 2010-02-06 10:22 tst
 $ type tst
 tst is ./tst
 $ tst
 bash: ./tst: Permission denied

 (SElinux is off, if it matters).

Any chance the filesystem is mounted with noexec?

John
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Re: Stoopid script failure

2010-02-06 Thread Todd Zullinger
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
 Can anyone explain why this doesn't work? I've been writing shell
 scripts on and off for several decades and I can't see what's going on
 here. Is senility setting it?

It may be, but it brings with it many benefits -- like being able to
eat dessert twice because you forgot you'd had cake already. ;)

 $ tst
 bash: ./tst: Permission denied

'.' is not in $PATH (by default and for good reason), so you must
specify ./tst to run the script.

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I am not young enough to know everything.
-- Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)



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Re: Stoopid script failure

2010-02-06 Thread Ed Greshko
Ed Greshko wrote:
 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
   
 Can anyone explain why this doesn't work? I've been writing shell
 scripts on and off for several decades and I can't see what's going on
 here. Is senility setting it?

 $ cat  tst
 #!/bin/sh
 echo foo
 $ chmod +x tst
 $ ls -l tst
 -rwxrwxr-x 1 poc poc 19 2010-02-06 10:22 tst
 $ type tst
 tst is ./tst
 $ tst
 bash: ./tst: Permission denied

 (SElinux is off, if it matters).

   
 
 I'm fairly sure you need the ./tst incantation unless you have . in your
 $PATH.  I recall somewhere, sometime a warning against thatbut I've
 ignored it for years and haven't had a problem.  I even forgot what the
 warning was all about.

   
I retract that last paragraph as rubbish...as I misread permission
denied...

-- 
Mix a little foolishness with your serious plans; it's lovely to be
silly at the right moment. -- Horace



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Re: Stoopid script failure

2010-02-06 Thread Ed Greshko
Todd Zullinger wrote:
 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
   
 Can anyone explain why this doesn't work? I've been writing shell
 scripts on and off for several decades and I can't see what's going on
 here. Is senility setting it?
 

 It may be, but it brings with it many benefits -- like being able to
 eat dessert twice because you forgot you'd had cake already. ;)

   
 $ tst
 bash: ./tst: Permission denied
 

 '.' is not in $PATH (by default and for good reason), so you must
 specify ./tst to run the script.

   
I did retract what I had said earlier...and tested on my system here

If '.' is not in my PATH I get...

[egres...@f12 x]$ type tst
-bash: type: tst: not found

Added to the end of my PATH results in 

[egres...@f12 x]$ type tst
tst is ./tst

[egres...@f12 x]$ tst
foo





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Re: Error installing any program using yum

2010-02-06 Thread Andras Simon
On 2/5/10, Richard Cahilig r.cahi...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,

 I have problem in my newly installed fedora 12. I got this error every time
 I tried to install anything via yum:

 [r...@localhost User]# yum update
 Loaded plugins: presto, refresh-packagekit
 Error: Cannot retrieve repository metadata (repomd.xml) for repository:
 fedora. Please verify its path and try again

Have you looked into log files (/var/log/messages,  /var/log/secure,
/var/log/yum.log)?
Also, I don't know how, but I'd try to get rid of these 2 plugins,
just to narrow down the possibilities.

Andras
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Wireless, RT2860, (driver available), and knetworkmanager, (Fedora 12)

2010-02-06 Thread n2xssvv.g02gfr12930

Well I eventually got the combination to work reliably, but not without
a fair number of hurdles to jump. This was a configuration puzzle
involving the wireless router, knetworkmanager, and what settings to
use.So here are the key configuration points I found to work for my setup:

Use of mode 11g
Use of a fixed frequency channel
Use WPA security using AES encryption
Use of auto data rate
Use of ESSID broadcasting

Now for the quirks of knetworkmanager for setting up wireless:

Trying to set the BSSID always broke the config
The SSID always had to be selected via a scan for it to work
If the network is stopped it is effectively disabled

Now I like to use KDE as you've probably already guessed and wanted to
use networkmanager to simplify network management. This is now not as
scary as it may seem and both my laptop and my PC are configured this
way. As a result of this setup I've made sure that after logging in, no
network connection is made, but is easily done using the knetworkmanager
applet, whether it be wired or wireless.
Another bonus of using knetworkmanager was the ease with which I could
configure either my PC/Laptop network when needing to configure new
networked hardware, and then return back as required. This fact alone
makes trying changes in network configuration a whole lot easier than
they would have been.
So may I recommend you look at using networkmanager, using the Gnome or
KDE applet to do so, or the commandline interface if you're no fan of
using a GUI.

JB



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Re: Stoopid script failure

2010-02-06 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan
On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 10:26 -0500, Todd Zullinger wrote:
 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
  Can anyone explain why this doesn't work? I've been writing shell
  scripts on and off for several decades and I can't see what's going on
  here. Is senility setting it?
 
 It may be, but it brings with it many benefits -- like being able to
 eat dessert twice because you forgot you'd had cake already. ;)
 
  $ tst
  bash: ./tst: Permission denied
 
 '.' is not in $PATH (by default and for good reason), so you must
 specify ./tst to run the script.

I know . isn't in $PATH by default. I added it to $PATH before doing
this, as evidenced by the type tst line in my post.

Furthermore, I also get:

$ ./tst
bash: ./tst: Permission denied
$

poc

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Re: Stoopid script failure

2010-02-06 Thread Paolo Galtieri
On 02/06/2010 08:34 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
 Ed Greshko wrote:

 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

  
 Can anyone explain why this doesn't work? I've been writing shell
 scripts on and off for several decades and I can't see what's going on
 here. Is senility setting it?

 $ cat  tst
 #!/bin/sh
 echo foo
 $ chmod +x tst
 $ ls -l tst
 -rwxrwxr-x 1 poc poc 19 2010-02-06 10:22 tst
 $ type tst
 tst is ./tst
 $ tst
 bash: ./tst: Permission denied

 (SElinux is off, if it matters).




 I'm fairly sure you need the ./tst incantation unless you have . in your
 $PATH.  I recall somewhere, sometime a warning against thatbut I've
 ignored it for years and haven't had a problem.  I even forgot what the
 warning was all about.


  
 I retract that last paragraph as rubbish...as I misread permission
 denied...


check to see what shell /bin/sh actually refers to.  Usually /bin/sh is 
a link to /bin/bash but it doesn't have to be.  You can also try to run

   /bin/bash -x tst

and see what happens.

Paolo
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Re: Stoopid script failure

2010-02-06 Thread n2xssvv.g02gfr12930
On 02/06/2010 03:44 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
 On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 09:25 -0600, inode0 wrote:
 On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan
 pocallag...@gmail.com wrote:
 Can anyone explain why this doesn't work? I've been writing shell
 scripts on and off for several decades and I can't see what's going on
 here. Is senility setting it?

 $ cat  tst
 #!/bin/sh
 echo foo
 $ chmod +x tst
 $ ls -l tst
 -rwxrwxr-x 1 poc poc 19 2010-02-06 10:22 tst
 $ type tst
 tst is ./tst
 $ tst
 bash: ./tst: Permission denied

 (SElinux is off, if it matters).

 Any chance the filesystem is mounted with noexec?
 
 That's exactly it! Thanks, I was starting to worry about my sanity.
 
 poc
 
 
Find someone who hasn't been in this type of situation, I think the
cliche, not seeing the wood for the trees,springs to mind,and it's
happened to me on a few occasions. As far as I'm concerned it's nothing
to worry, or be ashamed about, it just lets others know you're human.
More to the point this mailing list comes to the rescue yet again when
you're sat too close to a problem to see the solution.

P.S you're only human poc, geeky maybe, but not insane

JB
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Re: Problem with a large partition

2010-02-06 Thread Kevin Kofler
arag...@dcsnow.com wrote:
 ACK!  Stupid server tricked me.  It did not have a DVD drive so I couldn't
 use my usual Fedora 12 DVD which is X64.  I downloaded the live CD and
 assumed that it was 64bit.  :/  Thank you for pointing that out.  Time for
 a reinstall.

Both the DVD and the live CDs are available in both 32 and 64-bit versions. 
Unfortunately, the default download is the 32-bit version and it only says 
that in fine print. :-( (IMHO, 64-bit should be the default, people should 
try the 64-bit version first, chances are it'll work, and if not it should 
just tell them to fetch the legacy version.)

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Using abrt for bugs that are non-crashes ?!?

2010-02-06 Thread Marko Vojinovic
On Saturday 06 February 2010 05:44:07 Tim wrote:
 On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 12:37 -0500, William Case wrote:
  I now find that Epiphany takes about 40 to 80 seconds to load a site
  while Firefox is still almost instantaneous.
 
 If you mentioned the site, someone may be able to look at it and say why
 that browser has problems.  Otherwise, we're left with guessing at
 things.  Proxies, JavaScript, Java, Flash, DNS...

 ... history, local cache...


Best, :-)
Marko

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Re: Plymouth misbehaving

2010-02-06 Thread Marko Vojinovic
On Friday 05 February 2010 19:47:46 Germán A. Racca wrote:
 On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 19:33 +, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
  This is how I have my plymouth is configured:
 
  [r...@yoda ~]# plymouth-set-default-theme
  solar
 
  However, on boot the charge theme is displayed instead of solar.
 
 Did you run
 
 # /usr/libexec/plymouth/plymouth-update-initrd
 
 after changing the theme?

You're right, I missed that. Works perfectly now. :-)

Thanks! :-)
Marko

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Library loading problems

2010-02-06 Thread Jim
FC12-X86_64/KDE


I have install NX-x86_64 and it is looking for three Lib files:

libXcomp.so.3
libXcompext.so.3
libeXcompshad.so.3

These three files where installed in /usr/NX/lib/

Should these three files be linked from  /usr/lib64/nx directory, being 
that this is a 64 bit machine.

The three rpms that was installed for NX where x86_64.rpms .
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Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.

2010-02-06 Thread Brian Mury
On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 12:37 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
 I have a ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200 SE] (rev 01) and I'm 
 running F12 with KMS enabled, 2D works perfectly, 3D is sometimes a bit 
 stuttery (i.e. it freezes on a frame for a small fraction of a second, not 
 enough to be seen as an outright freeze, but enough to be seen as frame 
 jumping), but otherwise it just works. It did have several issues (crashes, 
 assertion failures) on F11, and there was one assertion failure in Extreme 
 Tux Racer in the F12 release, but that got fixed in the updates. (But it's 
 true F10 was best. The drivers got refactored to work with the latest X11 
 driver technologies and there were some regressions in the process.)

I see the same stuttery 3D you do with KMS (it is much smoother with UMS
on those occasions that the computer doesn't lock up).

Tux Racer either crashes miserably (and leaves my desktop in 800x600!),
or runs at what looks like a frame every couple seconds or so. 

2D is useable for stuff like email and word processing, though it will
sometimes (not always) lag a bit when moving or switching windows, etc.
It does not work well when watching videos, or browsing the web
(depending on content). Most of these problems will go away if I boot
with UMS, but that has stability problems, especially with 3D.

Flash seems to be particularly bad. This is easily seen by playing
YouTube videos. With UMS it works well enough. Hi def can sometimes be a
problem, but fullscreen works well. With KMS, even a low def, non-full
screen video doesn't play well - it will start to drop frames to the
extent that I often have frozen video for several seconds at a time (the
audio continues to play smoothly). My CPU will usage will be 100% during
this time (it is much lower with UMS). Perhaps a faster processor would
make a difference (this is an Athlon XP 3200+), though that would be
masking the problem.

I'm wondering how well YouTube videos work for you (try different
resolutions, full screen, etc). I'm also curious if you see a difference
between KMS and UMS, especially in CPU usage.


 Now if you're expecting a performance beast, perhaps you're expecting too 
 much from a Radeon 9200? (FYI, even current Intel integrated chipsets 
 (GM965) perform better.)

I'm aware that this is not a fast card. I'm not running anything that is
terribly demanding. The card is plenty fast enough to handle things like
video and Google Earth - indeed, as I said before, it *used to* handle
these tasks perfectly with previous Fedora releases - and still does in
UMS when it doesn't crash. Right now I have to choose between
performance or stability.

Brian


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Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.

2010-02-06 Thread Brian Mury
On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 16:02 +, Terry Barnaby wrote:
 I have machines with: ATI RV280, ATI RV535, ATI X300, Intel 945G and some
 others. All of these have issues with F12, mainly with 3D but both the
 ATI RV280 and ATI X300 cause occasional system lockup's requiring a
 reboot in 2D and also kernel panics. 

Terry, are you using UMS or KMS? I have stability issues with UMS. KMS
seems much better stability wise (performance wise is the other way
around).

 There are also graphics artefacts occasionally.

I'm curious what type of artifacts you see, and when/where you see them.
I get artifacts only in Google Earth (running it with software rendering
solves it, but is much too slow to use). Card is rv280.

Brian


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livecd-creator failing on F11

2010-02-06 Thread Suvayu Ali
Hi Fedorans,

I was trying to build my own 64 bit F12 XFCE LiveCD on my 64 bit F11
machine. I used the kickstarts from spin-kickstarts as my starting
point. All I did was remove some packages and add some of my own.

When I try building it like this is,

 $ setenforce 0
 $ sudo livecd-creator -c fedora-livecd-xfce.ks -f Fedora-12-Live-XFCE 
 --cache=/var/cache/live 2 err.log

 Filesystem label=Fedora-12-Live-X
 OS type: Linux
 Block size=4096 (log=2)
 Fragment size=4096 (log=2)
 196608 inodes, 786432 blocks
 7864 blocks (1.00%) reserved for the super user
 First data block=0
 Maximum filesystem blocks=805306368
 24 block groups
 32768 blocks per group, 32768 fragments per group
 8192 inodes per group
 Superblock backups stored on blocks:
   32768, 98304, 163840, 229376, 294912

 Writing inode tables: done
 Creating journal (16384 blocks): done
 Writing superblocks and filesystem accounting information: done

 This filesystem will be automatically checked every 34 mounts or
 180 days, whichever comes first.  Use tune2fs -c or -i to override.
 tune2fs 1.41.4 (27-Jan-2009)
 Setting maximal mount count to -1
 Setting interval between checks to 0 seconds
 filespec_eval:  hash table stats: 12 elements, 12/65536 buckets used, longest 
 chain length 1
 Retrieving 
 http://fedora.mirror.iweb.ca/releases/12/Everything/x86_64/os/repodata/repomd.xml
  ...OK
 Retrieving http://fedora.mirror.iweb.ca/updates/12/x86_64/repodata/repomd.xml 
 ...OK

The error says this,

 mke2fs 1.41.4 (27-Jan-2009)
 /usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/imgcreate/errors.py:45:
 DeprecationWarning: BaseException.message has been deprecated as of
 Python 2.6
   return unicode(self.message)
 Error creating Live CD : Unable to install: [('installing package
 ibus-pinyin-1.2.0.20090915-1.fc12.noarch needs 25MB on the
 /var/tmp/imgcreate-NHMZgo/install_root filesystem', (9,
 '/var/tmp/imgcreate-NHMZgo/install_root', 25546752L)),  (...), ...]

This list goes on quite a bit. My disk has plenty of space (50 gigs)
so that's not the problem. Any ideas what this could be?

TIA
-- 
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Re: [Bulk] Re: Using abrt for bugs that are non-crashes ?!?

2010-02-06 Thread William Case
Hi;
On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 16:14 +1030, Tim wrote:
 On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 12:37 -0500, William Case wrote:
  I now find that Epiphany takes about 40 to 80 seconds to load a site
  while Firefox is still almost instantaneous.
 
 If you mentioned the site, someone may be able to look at it and say why
 that browser has problems.  Otherwise, we're left with guessing at
 things.  Proxies, JavaScript, Java, Flash, DNS...


http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ghostwriter-science-industrypage=2
  

Epiphany ≅ 40 sec.  FF ≅ 10 sec. to load.

However, I have tried loading other sites that seemed to have slowed
down considerably in Epiphany this morning and they now seem to be
speeding right along.  Even the SciAm site seemed faster.

If I can catch Epiphany slowing again, I'll let the list know.  It is
not about ISP etc.; my issue is about the difference in speed between
Epiphany (which used to be the fastest) and Firefox.

My main question, however, was about the use of abrt for reporting
non-crash bugs.

-- 
Regards Bill
Fedora 12, Gnome 2.28
Evo.2.28, Emacs 23.1.1

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Re: livecd-creator failing on F11

2010-02-06 Thread Bruno Wolff III
On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 11:29:20 -0800,
  Suvayu Ali fatkasuvayu+li...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 This list goes on quite a bit. My disk has plenty of space (50 gigs)
 so that's not the problem. Any ideas what this could be?

Are you sure that space is available on the file system with the /var
directory?
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Re: Nautilus file operations problem

2010-02-06 Thread Robert Nichols
Paolo Galtieri wrote:
 I tried to copy a file from my hard disk to a USB flash drive using drag 
 and drop and the nautilus file manager.  When I did this a file 
 operations window popped up showing progress of the copy.  It stopped at 
 245.5Mb of 278.6Mb, however, when you look at the destination file it is 
 in fact all there.  Doing an md5sum of the source file and the 
 destination file shows them to be the same.  I removed the destination 
 file and tried the copy again, and this time it stopped at 246.5Mb of 
 278.6Mb.  If I try to unmount the USB drive it fails with volume is 
 busy, even though the file has been copied over completely.  If I try to 
 force the unmount it fails with volume busy.  Eventually (after about 5 
 minutes) it seems to finally recognize that the copy is complete and 
 allows me to unmount the drive.  If the file has completed copying why 
 does the nautilus file operation popup take a long time before it goes away?
 
 No matter how many times I do the copy the nautilus file operation popup 
 takes several minutes to report completion.
 
 I'm running F12 with all the latest updates.

Nautilus is waiting for fsync() to return, indicating that the data has
actually been written to the device.  Unmounting is similarly waiting for
the writes to complete.  When you think you are looking at the file on
the device, all you are really seeing is the data in the kernel's buffer
cache.  Writes to USB drives max out at around 30MB/s, so you should
expect it to take 9 minutes or more to transfer that 278MB file.

-- 
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 Do NOT delete it.

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Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.

2010-02-06 Thread Terry Barnaby
On 02/06/2010 06:51 PM, Brian Mury wrote:
 On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 16:02 +, Terry Barnaby wrote:
 I have machines with: ATI RV280, ATI RV535, ATI X300, Intel 945G and some
 others. All of these have issues with F12, mainly with 3D but both the
 ATI RV280 and ATI X300 cause occasional system lockup's requiring a
 reboot in 2D and also kernel panics.

 Terry, are you using UMS or KMS? I have stability issues with UMS. KMS
 seems much better stability wise (performance wise is the other way
 around).
Most of the systems I'm using UMS as otherwise 3D doesn't work or there
are some other problems. I think one of them is running KMS as that works
a bit better on that system with what I or the other users do. It's all a
bit hit and miss as to what applications works best with what settings.


 There are also graphics artefacts occasionally.

 I'm curious what type of artifacts you see, and when/where you see them.
 I get artifacts only in Google Earth (running it with software rendering
 solves it, but is much too slow to use). Card is rv280.

 Brian


On the ATI X300 system sometimes text is written in blue rather than
black. Some square areas when repainted seem to have a horizontal
tearing as if a bit-blt had the wrong xstep value. One of the others
seems to not repaint square areas occasionally. 3D rendering is variable
especially on the performance side.

In general, as far as I am concerned, although ATI graphics works to a
degree its all a bit shaky and quite dependent of the specific chipset,
card and applications you use.

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Re: [Bulk] Re: Using abrt for bugs that are non-crashes ?!?

2010-02-06 Thread Suvayu Ali
On Saturday 06 February 2010 11:32 AM, William Case wrote:
 Hi;
 On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 16:14 +1030, Tim wrote:
 On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 12:37 -0500, William Case wrote:
 I now find that Epiphany takes about 40 to 80 seconds to load a site
 while Firefox is still almost instantaneous.

 If you mentioned the site, someone may be able to look at it and say why
 that browser has problems.  Otherwise, we're left with guessing at
 things.  Proxies, JavaScript, Java, Flash, DNS...


 http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ghostwriter-science-industrypage=2

 Epiphany ≅ 40 sec.  FF ≅ 10 sec. to load.


It was equally fast for me on both the browsers. I am on F11 x86_64.

-- 
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Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.

2010-02-06 Thread Suvayu Ali
On Saturday 06 February 2010 10:51 AM, Brian Mury wrote:
 On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 16:02 +, Terry Barnaby wrote:
 I have machines with: ATI RV280, ATI RV535, ATI X300, Intel 945G and some
 others. All of these have issues with F12, mainly with 3D but both the
 ATI RV280 and ATI X300 cause occasional system lockup's requiring a
 reboot in 2D and also kernel panics.

 Terry, are you using UMS or KMS? I have stability issues with UMS. KMS
 seems much better stability wise (performance wise is the other way
 around).

A bit OT, but what is the difference/pros-cons between User Mode and 
Kernel Mode Setting? Can anyone refer me to some _not too technical_ 
resource?

-- 
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Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.

2010-02-06 Thread Bruno Wolff III
On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 13:26:12 -0800,
  Suvayu Ali fatkasuvayu+li...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 A bit OT, but what is the difference/pros-cons between User Mode and 
 Kernel Mode Setting? Can anyone refer me to some _not too technical_ 
 resource?

User mode is the old way of doing things. The only reason to want to use it
is when there is a problem with kernel mode. Eventually user mode support
is going to go away upstream, but probably not for a couple of years.

The fedora feature page
(http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/KernelModesetting) lists the
following benefits:
* Improved Graphical Boot
* Faster fast user switching
* Seamless X server switching
* Graphical panic messages

Also KMS is a prerequestite for being able to run X not as root. That is still
a long ways out, but should eventually happen.
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Re: Yum update crashes

2010-02-06 Thread Sawrub
On 01/29/2010 11:57 PM, Jim wrote:
 FC12-X86_64/KDE

 Yum update is crashing.
 I did a yum clean all, but that doesn't help.


 ]# yum update
 Loaded plugins: presto, refresh-packagekit
 fedora/primary_db
 |  12 MB 00:39
 google-chrome
 |  951 B 00:00
 google-chrome/primary
 | 1.8 kB 00:00
 google-chrome
 3/3
 livna
 | 2.4 kB 00:00
 livna/primary_db
 | 2.7 kB 00:00
 rpmfusion-free
 | 3.8 kB 00:00
 rpmfusion-free/primary_db
 | 344 kB 00:05
 rpmfusion-free-updates
 | 3.3 kB 00:00
 rpmfusion-free-updates/primary_db
 | 159 kB 00:00
 rpmfusion-nonfree
 | 3.3 kB 00:00
 rpmfusion-nonfree/primary_db
 |  91 kB 00:00
 rpmfusion-nonfree-updates
 | 3.3 kB 00:00
 rpmfusion-nonfree-updates/primary_db
 |  40 kB 00:00
 updates/metalink
 |  14 kB 00:00
 updates
 | 4.4 kB 00:00
 updates/primary_db
 | 3.7 MB 00:16
 Error: file is encrypted or is not a database


It seems to me that the RPM database have got corrupted, please try 
rebuilding the same.
Guide : http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/rebuilding-corrupted-rpm-database.html

-- 
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Linux user number: 490644
http://sawrub-blog.blogspot.com/
Open your doors...It's time to look beyond Windows

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Re: livecd-creator failing on F11

2010-02-06 Thread Bruno Wolff III
On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 13:40:50 -0800,
  Suvayu Ali fatkasuvayu+li...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Could I still be having disk space problems given the above information? 
 I am running the livecd-creator in my home, does that make any 
 difference? Although that shouldn't pose a problem as you can see above, 
 I have over hundred gigs of free space in my /home.

As I suggested in the private reply, the disk space in the file systems
looks good, but you might be running out of space on the image. You may
need to include a part command in the kickstart that reserves a larger size.
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Re: livecd-creator failing on F11

2010-02-06 Thread Suvayu Ali
On Saturday 06 February 2010 01:47 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
 On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 13:40:50 -0800,
Suvayu Alifatkasuvayu+li...@gmail.com  wrote:

 Could I still be having disk space problems given the above information?
 I am running the livecd-creator in my home, does that make any
 difference? Although that shouldn't pose a problem as you can see above,
 I have over hundred gigs of free space in my /home.

 As I suggested in the private reply, the disk space in the file systems
 looks good, but you might be running out of space on the image. You may
 need to include a part command in the kickstart that reserves a larger size.

Thank you Bruno, my email client seems to be acting a bit weird. Hence 
all the confusion.

I have received your private reply, and have edited the kickstart file 
to reserve 3.5 gigs. It starts building but fails during the post 
installation scripts with this error,

IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 
'/var/tmp/imgcreate-DBVzFU/install_root/boot/initrd-2.6.31.12-174.2.3.fc12.x86_64.img'

I suspect my increased size in the part command wasn't enough. I think 
I'll give up on the idea of having OOo on the live image, and try again. 
with a smaller set of packages. I 'll post back if I run into problems.

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What's going on with the users command?

2010-02-06 Thread KC8LDO
I setup an Fedora-11 box, 32 bit, for multi user access as an experiment. I 
created two accounts to log in to with remote access through RDP, using the 
installed Xrdp rpm, for remote use. That all seems to work fine. However 
going to the command line and typing users only shows the account name 
from where the command is run, even when I have both accounts logged in at 
the same time. The other weird thing is using gnome-system-monitor to 
watch all processes on the system, with user name listed, does in fact show 
both accounts. So what is going on here?

I've also tried the w and who command with the same results.

Regards;

Leland C. Scott
KC8LDO

What's the difference between ignorance
and stupidity? Well ignorance can be cured
through education, while stupidly is
something you're born with.


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Re: livecd-creator failing on F11

2010-02-06 Thread Bruno Wolff III
On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 14:04:55 -0800,
  Suvayu Ali fatkasuvayu+li...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 
 '/var/tmp/imgcreate-DBVzFU/install_root/boot/initrd-2.6.31.12-174.2.3.fc12.x86_64.img'
 
 I suspect my increased size in the part command wasn't enough. I think 
 I'll give up on the idea of having OOo on the live image, and try again. 
 with a smaller set of packages. I 'll post back if I run into problems.

That may be related to the switch from mkinitrd to dracut. I have been
able to build live images on f12, but haven't for a few weeks. (I mostly
do this in rawhide now.) So that may not be the answer, but you might want
to check. Are you doing the image build on f11 and not f12?
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Re: livecd-creator failing on F11

2010-02-06 Thread Suvayu Ali
On Saturday 06 February 2010 03:47 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
 On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 14:04:55 -0800,
Suvayu Alifatkasuvayu+li...@gmail.com  wrote:

 IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory:
 '/var/tmp/imgcreate-DBVzFU/install_root/boot/initrd-2.6.31.12-174.2.3.fc12.x86_64.img'

 I suspect my increased size in the part command wasn't enough. I think
 I'll give up on the idea of having OOo on the live image, and try again.
 with a smaller set of packages. I 'll post back if I run into problems.

 That may be related to the switch from mkinitrd to dracut. I have been
 able to build live images on f12, but haven't for a few weeks. (I mostly
 do this in rawhide now.) So that may not be the answer, but you might want
 to check. Are you doing the image build on f11 and not f12?

Yes I'm doing this on F11.

I also found something which could be an alternate explanation. When I
look in /var/tmp/, I see the folder mentioned above doesn't
exist. Instead there is another folder of a similar name,
/var/tmp/imgcreate-yvpmqw. I have a hunch this could be a leftover
from the first time the build failed.

On doing `mount -l' I see that the install_root under that is still
mounted. Trying to umount complains the device is busy. I could try to 
reboot and build again ... :-\

I will post back whether I succeed after a reboot.

-- 
Suvayu

Open source is the future. It sets us free.
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?? on library files

2010-02-06 Thread Jim
I have installed NX-x86_64 and library files are in /usr/NX/lib and 
x86_64 can't find them there, i have linked a few of them from 
/usr/lib64/ but there are many more
in /usr/NX/lib that are probably not being seen.

How do I get all those library file in /usr/NX/lib to be in PATH so they 
can be read as they are needed.
I can't get NX to work between client and Server and I'm not getting any 
error messages .

The three rpms I installed are X86_64.rpm .
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Re: livecd-creator failing on F11

2010-02-06 Thread Bruno Wolff III
On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 16:07:59 -0800,
  Suvayu Ali fatkasuvayu+li...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Yes I'm doing this on F11.

In general building images for a different version of Fedora isn't going to
work unless you use mock. I haven't done that yet and am not able to give
you exact instructions, but that's probably where you need to go if you
want to do cross version builds of live images.
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Re: ?? on library files

2010-02-06 Thread Ed Greshko
Jim wrote:
 I have installed NX-x86_64 and library files are in /usr/NX/lib and 
 x86_64 can't find them there, i have linked a few of them from 
 /usr/lib64/ but there are many more
 in /usr/NX/lib that are probably not being seen.

 How do I get all those library file in /usr/NX/lib to be in PATH so they 
 can be read as they are needed.
 I can't get NX to work between client and Server and I'm not getting any 
 error messages .

 The three rpms I installed are X86_64.rpm .
   
Are you sure about what you are saying?

I don't have a 64bit system.  But, when you say NX do you really mean
nx as in nx-3.3.0-38.fc12.x86_64.rpm or whatever updated version there is?

Also, the file list for this rpm shows quite different paths than you
state

./usr/bin/nxagent
./usr/bin/nxproxy
./usr/bin/nxssh
./usr/lib64/nx
./usr/lib64/nx/libX11.so.6
./usr/lib64/nx/libX11.so.6.2
./usr/lib64/nx/libXcomp.so.3
./usr/lib64/nx/libXcomp.so.3.3.0
./usr/lib64/nx/libXcompext.so.3
./usr/lib64/nx/libXcompext.so.3.3.0
./usr/lib64/nx/libXcompshad.so.3
./usr/lib64/nx/libXcompshad.so.3.3.0
./usr/lib64/nx/libXext.so.6
./usr/lib64/nx/libXext.so.6.4
./usr/lib64/nx/libXrender.so.1
./usr/lib64/nx/libXrender.so.1.2.2
./usr/libexec/nx


etc



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Re: Nautilus file operations problem

2010-02-06 Thread Paolo Galtieri
On 02/06/2010 06:28 PM, Robert Nichols wrote:
 Robert Nichols wrote:

 Paolo Galtieri wrote:
  
 I tried to copy a file from my hard disk to a USB flash drive using drag
 and drop and the nautilus file manager.  When I did this a file
 operations window popped up showing progress of the copy.  It stopped at
 245.5Mb of 278.6Mb, however, when you look at the destination file it is
 in fact all there.  Doing an md5sum of the source file and the
 destination file shows them to be the same.  I removed the destination
 file and tried the copy again, and this time it stopped at 246.5Mb of
 278.6Mb.  If I try to unmount the USB drive it fails with volume is
 busy, even though the file has been copied over completely.  If I try to
 force the unmount it fails with volume busy.  Eventually (after about 5
 minutes) it seems to finally recognize that the copy is complete and
 allows me to unmount the drive.  If the file has completed copying why
 does the nautilus file operation popup take a long time before it goes away?

 No matter how many times I do the copy the nautilus file operation popup
 takes several minutes to report completion.

 I'm running F12 with all the latest updates.

 Nautilus is waiting for fsync() to return, indicating that the data has
 actually been written to the device.  Unmounting is similarly waiting for
 the writes to complete.  When you think you are looking at the file on
 the device, all you are really seeing is the data in the kernel's buffer
 cache.  Writes to USB drives max out at around 30MB/s, so you should
 expect it to take 9 minutes or more to transfer that 278MB file.
  
 That calculation, of course, makes no sense.  At 30MB/s a 278MB transfer
 would take 9.2 _seconds_, not 9 minutes.  However, USB flash drives do not
 achieve anywhere near 30MB/s for writes.  Five or 6 minutes is a quite
 likely time for a 278MB transfer to most commonly available flash drives.


what's interesting is that the first 240+Mb take seconds. it's the last 
30Mb that seem to take forever, i.e. the progress bar displays the first 
240+Mb almost immediately and then it stops.   I would expect the write 
itself should take seconds, but the sync to the drive, which doesn't 
occur until you eject the drive, should take more time.

Paolo
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Re: Nautilus file operations problem

2010-02-06 Thread Mikkel
On 02/06/2010 07:46 PM, Paolo Galtieri wrote:
 what's interesting is that the first 240+Mb take seconds. it's the last 
 30Mb that seem to take forever, i.e. the progress bar displays the first 
 240+Mb almost immediately and then it stops.   I would expect the write 
 itself should take seconds, but the sync to the drive, which doesn't 
 occur until you eject the drive, should take more time.
 
The first rush is probably filling the write buffer. Then it has to
write the buffer, before filling it again. Because the drive is
mounted with the flush option, the filesystem will try to flush to
disk more early than normal.

One other thing - the sync to disk will usually occur before you
eject the drive. It will occur when ever the write buffer allocated
to the drive is full, or when the drive is otherwise idle. I believe
there is also a time limit that data can stay in the write buffer
before it has to be written to disk. (I can not remember all the
tuning parameters right now...)

Mikkel
-- 

  Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!



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Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.

2010-02-06 Thread Tom Horsley
Just collected all the data on all the systems I use
with ATI cards, and the results are (mostly) not pretty:

Fedora 12 systems with ATI cards:

ATI Technologies Inc RV410 [Radeon X700 Pro (PCIE)]

This one seems to work perfectly with the default
installation (using KMS). This is the only ATI card in any
of my systems that has no problems. (Fortunately this
happens to be my main home system so it is good that this
one works so well).

ATI Technologies Inc Radeon R100 QD [Radeon 7200]

This is a true antique, an original Radeon All-In-Wonder
card. The driver cannot do KMS on this so I get UMS even
without putting the nomodeset option on the kernel command
line. It sorta works, but lots of things render in a
completely unreadable fashion.

See: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=522970

ATI Technologies Inc RV610 video device [Radeon HD 2400 PRO]

This is (unfortunately), my desktop at work. It crashed
constantly until I started experimenting and finally
discovered that I could switch to the radeonhd driver, turn
off KMS, disable most driver acceleration, and finally get
the system to work all the time (it hasn't crashed for a
week or more since I made those changes).

See: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=541387

And one ubuntu 9.10 system:

ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200] (rev 01)

This is just a test machine, but when I installed with the
defaults, background images wouldn't appear. Turning off all
fancy screen effects modes finally made it work a bit
better, but still little things often don't render correctly
(buttons will be missing edges or not there at all, etc). I
saw other reports of the same problems with the 9200 in the
ubuntu forums.

The most noticeable thing about all these cards is that
older versions of linux have at one time or another all
worked flawlessly with these cards.

Where flawless means 2D plus 3D at least good enough to
play non-demanding games like neverputt (maybe not
demanding, but still hopeless with software rending).

There have been ups and downs (the 7200 in particular
stopped working completely for a while, and has only come
back to function at all in the latest X), but the trend is
unfortunately distinctly down at the moment.
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Re: radeon driver heading in wrong direction :-(.

2010-02-06 Thread Mail Lists
On 02/06/2010 09:34 PM, Tom Horsley wrote:
 Just collected all the data on all the systems I use
 with ATI cards, and the results are (mostly) not pretty:
 
 Fedora 12 systems with ATI cards:

  Do you happen to know whether f12 will work with ATI mobility HD 5830
which is in a bunch of laptops ? (I posted separately too - but since
you seem to know about ATI thought I'd ask directly.

 thanks

gene
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