Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Chris]

Agreed, it seems to be deliberate to get people moved over to the big
providers, they are clearly discouraging independent email servers as
they clearly scored differently.

I have even been doing tests on various spare unused ip's and the
amount that get blocked by microsoft (but no other providers) is
unreal.

Also to mention their own outlook software part of office, if I even
set low level filtering, it has insane levels of false positives.

On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 at 11:12, Marc  wrote:
>
> Complain to the European Union. It is not in Microsoft's and google's 
> interest to fix this. By frustrating/sabotaging other providers services, 
> they create an environment where users are forced to switch to the 
> outlook.com/gmail.com cloud. Eg. what you have done is already more than 
> gmail.com is doing, they are still working with an spf ~all.
>
> This companies have billions in cash, so there is no reason not to fix this 
> problem. This is just a management decision.
>
>
> >
> >
> >   I am also having a world of trouble getting my emails to Outlook
> > users.  For reference, my work domain has one user (me).  I have had the
> > account for about 9 months and I have not yet sent 100 emails.  I
> > typically send an email to a single recipient, although I will
> > occasionally CC a handful of people.
> >
> >
> >
> >   What I’ve tried:
> >
> >
> >
> >   1.  I have also set up SPF, DKIM, and DMARC.  I’m *pretty sure*
> > they’re solid.  Emails still go to junk.
> >   2.  Initially, I didn’t have anything actually at the website for
> > my domain, so I threw my executive summary into a google site.  Emails
> > still go to junk
> >   3.  I've checked our public IP and the domain name at
> > mxtoolbox.com   – no errors, but it warns that a) my
> > DMARC policy isn’t q or r, and b) it doesn’t care for my SOA
> >   4.  I tried to get on Microsoft’s SDNS and JMRP, but I was not
> > able.  I am pretty sure I have a shared IP, but I don’t know how I would
> > check that.  Microsoft also suggested I join the Return Path Safe Senders
> > program, but I am pretty sure I would need a dedicated IP for that.  In
> > any case, I don’t love the idea of paying to get whitelisted so I can send
> > 11 emails a month.
> >   5.  I’ve checked several sites and my domain isn’t on any
> > blacklists.  However, I did register the domain through NameCheap, which
> > is on the UCEPROTECT_LVL3 list
> >   6.  The domain is relatively new, as I said, but I don’t send any
> > bulk mail of any kind from it.  All mail is either to people I
> > specifically know, people to whom I have received a personal introduction,
> > or people listed as contacts for their organization on public websites
> >   7.  My mail is handled by Zoho Mail, so I haven’t done anything
> > fancy with the mail server.  If there’s anything I should try, I will, but
> > I might need the instructions at a fifth-grade level
> >   8.  I am fairly careful with my words, and the emails are
> > appropriately long, so I would be surprised if they were getting flagged
> > for trigger words.   I have tried mail-tester.com 
> > and it did not object to the body of my emails
> >   9.  Mail-tester.com claims to test emails against SA, although I
> > know this is a contentious point around here.  I bring it up, though,
> > because the fact that my TLD is “.space” raised some flags
> >   10. When I have called my contacts, they have been as confused as
> > I am that they did not receive my emails
> >   11. Emails I send to any other domains are never a problem spam-
> > wise
> >
>

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Loren Wilton]

Cian is rumored to have said:

Anne, I am incredibly grateful for the offer.  I sent my emails to the
tester and to the support email.  Hopefully, they come up with
something actionable.


If you get a useful result it might be nice to summarize it to the list.

   Loren

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[John Hardin]

On Sat, 19 Feb 2022, Greg Troxel wrote:


As for your "domain", also look up the IP address your mail comes from, because 
that's more important.
A lookup service I have found useful is:



https://multirbl.valli.org/


Ok, actually, I got some interesting results for 136.143.188.53, which
is a Zoho server I have apparently sent mail from.  Some blacklists,
some yellow lists, some whitelists, and a bunch of blue and red.  Do
you think Zoho is the bigger problem than NameCheap?


I said you should understand if you have a shared IP, and *who else is
sharing it*.  When they spam, it gets the IP on lists, which causes you
trouble.


...or *who had it before you did* (particularly for static or 
not-so-dynamic dynamic IPs).


A spammer could have set up a "throwaway" server and blasted spam from 
that IP until it got blacklisted, then moved on, leaving you to inherit an 
IP with a bad reputation.


That may or may not be an easy problem to address. Potentially the 
simplest solution is to ask your provider to assign you a different IP 
address and hope that one isn't listed as well. You could proactively 
spot-check IP addresses in the network block managed by your provider and 
if a more than a few of them are listed (particularly by multiple DNSBLs) 
then your provider is probably problematic and you should look elsewhere.



[Ooo, look, the .sigmonster is listening...]

--
 John Hardin KA7OHZhttp://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
 jhar...@impsec.org pgpk -a jhar...@impsec.org
 key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C  AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
---
  Back in 1969 the technology to fake a Moon landing didn't exist,
  but the technology to actually land there did.
  Today, it is the opposite.   -- unknown
---
 3 days until George Washington's 290th Birthday

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Cian ApacheBugzilla]

Thanks for the advice, Greg.

>I am not saying what you should do.  My point is that you do not seem to
truly understand what is going on (fair enough, the world is opaque and
complicated) and that understanding it is good.

I would agree with this statement.  The challenge is, it is very
difficult to find an authoritative source on this topic.  If I had a
question about C++ (I don't program much anymore, but for example),
there is a standard with very little ambiguity.  Of course, my
compiler could refuse to comply with aspects of the standard, but the
standard puts to bed almost any disagreement between dumb articles you
might find from googling.

Here, instead, I get no error message, Microsoft refuses to even
acknowledge that a problem exists, NameCheap and Zoho support toss me
back and forth like a hot potato.  The closest thing I have to an
authoritative source, then, is the SpamAssassin wiki and this mailing
list, which of course don't apply 100% because Microsoft is not SA.

If I have to pay for a deliverability consultant, I will, but I truly
don't have the money for it right now.  If paying for Google workspace
+ domain is going to solve my problem for $6/ month + $10/year,
whereas the consultant *might* be able to keep me on NameCheap and
Zoho but will cost $250/ hr, I would rather pay for Google.  That
said, I also don't want to pony up the money for Google if I'm not
highly confident it will work.

>I really don't know, but using a domain name that leads to people giving
it spam points seems like an uphill battle

I chuckled a little when I read this.  Of course, you're right.  It
isn't the hill I'm going to die on, but I'd rather pull troops from
other hills (NameCheap, Zoho, shared IP) before I surrender this one.

Anne, I am incredibly grateful for the offer.  I sent my emails to the
tester and to the support email.  Hopefully, they come up with
something actionable.

I really appreciate both of you, and everyone who takes their time to
help in these mailing lists.  I don't know what I would do without you

On Sat, Feb 19, 2022 at 11:02 AM Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
 wrote:
>
> Cian, first, MailTester (and also the other automated systems) is notoriously 
> bad about giving false negatives because so long as it finds *a* record (such 
> as an SPF record) it considers it "ok"; this is why we've gone to a 
> human-review system for test emails - I'd say in at least half the cases (if 
> not more) MailTester gave the email a passing grade, including for SPF, and 
> we determined quickly that the SPF was *wrong*.
>
> if you'd like to send us a test email (no charge :-) ) send it to 
> t...@gettotheinbox.com from the *same* system as you are wanting to test for 
> deliverability (so *not*, for example, from your Gmail account), then send a 
> second email to supp...@gettotheinbox.com from the email account at which 
> you'd like to receive our findings, tell them Anne sent you :-), and in that 
> second email tell them who the test email was from, and the subject line of 
> the test email.
>
> Anne
>
> ---
> Outsource your email deliverability headaches to us, and get to the inbox, 
> guaranteed!
> www.GetToTheInbox.com
>
> Anne P. Mitchell,  Esq.
> CEO Get to the Inbox by SuretyMail
> Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal email marketing 
> law)
> Author: The Email Deliverability Handbook
> Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
> Dean Emeritus, Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School
> Prof. Emeritus, Lincoln Law School
> Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
> In-house Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS) (Closed in 2004)
>
> > On Feb 18, 2022, at 6:09 PM, Cian  wrote:
> >
> > I am also having a world of trouble getting my emails to Outlook users.  
> > For reference, my work domain has one user (me).  I have had the account 
> > for about 9 months and I have not yet sent 100 emails.  I typically send an 
> > email to a single recipient, although I will occasionally CC a handful of 
> > people.
> >
> >
> >
> > What I’ve tried:
> >
> >
> >
> >   • I have also set up SPF, DKIM, and DMARC.  I’m *pretty sure* they’re 
> > solid.  Emails still go to junk.
> >   • Initially, I didn’t have anything actually at the website for my 
> > domain, so I threw my executive summary into a google site.  Emails still 
> > go to junk
> >   • I've checked our public IP and the domain name at mxtoolbox.com – 
> > no errors, but it warns that a) my DMARC policy isn’t q or r, and b) it 
> > doesn’t care for my SOA
> >   • I tried to get on Microsoft’s SDNS and JMRP, but I was not able.  I 
> > am pretty sure I have a shared IP, but I don’t know how I would check that. 
> >  Microsoft also suggested I join the Return Path Safe Senders program, but 
> > I am pretty sure I would need a dedicated IP for that.  In any case, I 
> > don’t love the idea of paying to get whitelisted so I can send 11 emails a 
> > month.
> >   • I’ve checked several sites and 

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.]

Cian, first, MailTester (and also the other automated systems) is notoriously 
bad about giving false negatives because so long as it finds *a* record (such 
as an SPF record) it considers it "ok"; this is why we've gone to a 
human-review system for test emails - I'd say in at least half the cases (if 
not more) MailTester gave the email a passing grade, including for SPF, and we 
determined quickly that the SPF was *wrong*.

if you'd like to send us a test email (no charge :-) ) send it to 
t...@gettotheinbox.com from the *same* system as you are wanting to test for 
deliverability (so *not*, for example, from your Gmail account), then send a 
second email to supp...@gettotheinbox.com from the email account at which you'd 
like to receive our findings, tell them Anne sent you :-), and in that second 
email tell them who the test email was from, and the subject line of the test 
email.

Anne

---
Outsource your email deliverability headaches to us, and get to the inbox, 
guaranteed! 
www.GetToTheInbox.com

Anne P. Mitchell,  Esq.
CEO Get to the Inbox by SuretyMail
Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal email marketing law)
Author: The Email Deliverability Handbook
Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
Dean Emeritus, Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School
Prof. Emeritus, Lincoln Law School
Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
In-house Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS) (Closed in 2004)

> On Feb 18, 2022, at 6:09 PM, Cian  wrote:
> 
> I am also having a world of trouble getting my emails to Outlook users.  For 
> reference, my work domain has one user (me).  I have had the account for 
> about 9 months and I have not yet sent 100 emails.  I typically send an email 
> to a single recipient, although I will occasionally CC a handful of people.
> 
>  
> 
> What I’ve tried:
> 
>  
> 
>   • I have also set up SPF, DKIM, and DMARC.  I’m *pretty sure* they’re 
> solid.  Emails still go to junk.
>   • Initially, I didn’t have anything actually at the website for my 
> domain, so I threw my executive summary into a google site.  Emails still go 
> to junk
>   • I've checked our public IP and the domain name at mxtoolbox.com – no 
> errors, but it warns that a) my DMARC policy isn’t q or r, and b) it doesn’t 
> care for my SOA
>   • I tried to get on Microsoft’s SDNS and JMRP, but I was not able.  I 
> am pretty sure I have a shared IP, but I don’t know how I would check that.  
> Microsoft also suggested I join the Return Path Safe Senders program, but I 
> am pretty sure I would need a dedicated IP for that.  In any case, I don’t 
> love the idea of paying to get whitelisted so I can send 11 emails a month.
>   • I’ve checked several sites and my domain isn’t on any blacklists.  
> However, I did register the domain through NameCheap, which is on the 
> UCEPROTECT_LVL3 list
>   • The domain is relatively new, as I said, but I don’t send any bulk 
> mail of any kind from it.  All mail is either to people I specifically know, 
> people to whom I have received a personal introduction, or people listed as 
> contacts for their organization on public websites
>   • My mail is handled by Zoho Mail, so I haven’t done anything fancy 
> with the mail server.  If there’s anything I should try, I will, but I might 
> need the instructions at a fifth-grade level
>   • I am fairly careful with my words, and the emails are appropriately 
> long, so I would be surprised if they were getting flagged for trigger words. 
>   I have tried mail-tester.com and it did not object to the body of my emails
>   • Mail-tester.com claims to test emails against SA, although I know 
> this is a contentious point around here.  I bring it up, though, because the 
> fact that my TLD is “.space” raised some flags
>   • When I have called my contacts, they have been as confused as I am 
> that they did not receive my emails
>   • Emails I send to any other domains are never a problem spam-wise
>  
> 
> Notes:
> 
>   • I do not have a list-unsubscribe header in my emails, for one because 
> I don’t have a list, and for two, because I don’t really know how.  I can add 
> one if necessary, although ideally I’d like the language to be clear that my 
> emails don’t go to a list of any kind
>   • I have a signature in my email.  It has my phone number, but no 
> address because I don’t have a physical location yet.  Some articles 
> suggested this is bad; I hate to put my home address in all my emails, but I 
> can if necessary.  It’s in my Dun and Bradstreet profile, anyway
>   • My domain contacts are anonymized, courtesy of NameCheap.  NameCheap 
> made this sound appealing, but I read somewhere that this makes you look 
> sketchy.  I could fix this, if necessary.
>  
> 
> I suspect I’ve already given you the smoking gun, but if this isn’t enough 
> information to hit on the problem, I am happy to provide more
> 
>  
> 

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Greg Troxel]

Cian ApacheBugzilla  writes:

>> However, the shared IP comment is worth paying attention to
>
> Ah, so you think I should get a dedicated IP?  I had read mixed things

I meant tha you should understand what's going on.

> I'm a little confused which way you mean this.  If I understand
> correctly, positive points in SA are bad, but you are subtracting
> points with your rule.  Are you saying you get less spam from domains
> listed by RP?

Sorry, I pasted the wrong line.  There have been multiple returnpath
listing levels, and they have changed over the years, and the names have
changed.  I didn't keep notes, but my score adjustments are to give a
small positive score (2) to the lower of the VALIDITY rules, and a
negative to the higher one.  Keep in mind this is based on what arrived
in my mailbox, and possibly a very long time ago.

score   RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE   2   # was -2
score   RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED  -2  # was -3

The real point is to evaluate what arrives and realize that all RBLs,
positive and negative, need to be assessed.

> Anyway, I might have to migrate my domain and get a dedicated IP
> first, but with a dedicated IP, I could try to get on dnwsl.org.  I
> imagine that would have a similar effect, minus having to spend money,
> right?

dnswl.org has NONE/LOW/MED/HIGH.  NONE is mostly for skipping
greylisting, and I'm not sure what it takes to get on LOW and MED.  I
know it takes a lot to get on HIGH.   Unlike companies that take money
for listing, I have confidence in dnswl to act in the interests of
receivers that use their RBL.

>> "listed as contacts" sort of sounds like you are spamming...
>
> Honestly, I wasn't sure how to explain this without going down the
> rabbit hole of explaining my whole situation.  Any contact I'm
> "cold-emailing" is coming from a page with text such as:

I see, so that sounds ok.

>> That is probably your entire issue.  UCEPROTECT
>
> So you basically recommend switching from NameCheap, to a registrar
> that isn't listed on UCEPROTECT_LVL3?  A part of me hates to do it,
> since I'm basically validating UCEPROTECT's philosophy, but it'll cost
> me, what, $8?  I could live with that, if this is your number one
> suggestion.  I'll even write to NameCheap and tell them this is why
> I'm leaving.

I am not saying what you should do.  My point is that you do not seem to
truly understand what is going on (fair enough, the world is opaque and
complicated) and that understanding it is good.

>> .space is Widely Regarded as Sketchy
>
> I still have pretty strong feelings about this, but that's a debate
> for a different time and a different thread.  Would you say I am
> likely to solve my problem without changing domain names?

I really don't know, but using a domain name that leads to people giving
it spam points seems like an uphill battle.

>> As for your "domain", also look up the IP address your mail comes from, 
>> because that's more important.> A lookup service I have found useful is:
>
>>https://multirbl.valli.org/
>
> Ok, actually, I got some interesting results for 136.143.188.53, which
> is a Zoho server I have apparently sent mail from.  Some blacklists,
> some yellow lists, some whitelists, and a bunch of blue and red.  Do
> you think Zoho is the bigger problem than NameCheap?

I said you should understand if you have a shared IP, and *who else is
sharing it*.  When they spam, it gets the IP on lists, which causes you
trouble.

It looks like spam comes from that IP address.

> My takeaway here is that I should be switching registrars, I should
> probably pay for a dedicated IP address, and once I'm getting a
> dedicated IP, anyway, I should try to get on a whitelist (probably
> dnswl, unless you have a better suggestion).  Would you agree with
> that summary?  Or do you think Zoho is the more likely problem?

I really don't know, and you may need a consultant to help you figure it
out.  In general, I recommend not sending mail from an IP address that
other people send spam from, and not dealing with companies that provide
any kind of services to spammers.


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Description: PGP signature

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Matus UHLAR - fantomas]

On 19.02.22 08:32, Cian ApacheBugzilla wrote:

Thanks for the advice Greg!


Your mail is in html


Bill Cole mentioned that, and I did try sending a plain text email to
no effect.  The email that you are replying to is unusually atrocious
because the only way I could figure out to reply to a mailing list
email I hadn't received was, ironically, using Outlook on my local
computer

Anyway, I don't take it as curmudgeonly at all :)


However, the shared IP comment is worth paying attention to


Ah, so you think I should get a dedicated IP?  I had read mixed things
from random articles, but I weight advice on FOSS mailing lists higher
than 99% of random articles, assuming that we're on the topic the
mailing list is about


if you are going to send mail from your mail server to services like outlook 
and gmail not as an authenticated client, you definitely should get 
dedicated IP address, with non-generic rDNS.



I give positive points for some RP categories as I have the vague impresssion 
that it its, for mail that arrives at my server, correlated

with spam:


score   RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED  -2  # was -3


I'm a little confused which way you mean this.  If I understand
correctly, positive points in SA are bad, but you are subtracting
points with your rule.  Are you saying you get less spam from domains
listed by RP?

Anyway, I might have to migrate my domain and get a dedicated IP
first, but with a dedicated IP, I could try to get on dnwsl.org.  I
imagine that would have a similar effect, minus having to spend money,
right?


I personally increated this score (and som other) to -0.3, but yes, 
returnpath maintains allowlist of IP address - you have to subscribe your 
server there.



That is probably your entire issue.  UCEPROTECT


So you basically recommend switching from NameCheap, to a registrar
that isn't listed on UCEPROTECT_LVL3?


either that, or push your current IP address provider to clear the network 
of problematiuc clients.



 A part of me hates to do it,
since I'm basically validating UCEPROTECT's philosophy, but it'll cost
me, what, $8?


I think this is for express L1 delistings (you got there yourself)


.space is Widely Regarded as Sketchy


I still have pretty strong feelings about this, but that's a debate
for a different time and a different thread.  Would you say I am
likely to solve my problem without changing domain names?


many of newest TLDs are used for spamming, getting domain in more stable TLD 
might help.


--
Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uh...@fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address.
Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu.
- Holmes, what kind of school did you study to be a detective?
- Elementary, Watkins.  -- Daffy Duck & Porky Pig

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Cian ApacheBugzilla]

Thanks for the advice Greg!

>Your mail is in html

Bill Cole mentioned that, and I did try sending a plain text email to
no effect.  The email that you are replying to is unusually atrocious
because the only way I could figure out to reply to a mailing list
email I hadn't received was, ironically, using Outlook on my local
computer

Anyway, I don't take it as curmudgeonly at all :)

> However, the shared IP comment is worth paying attention to

Ah, so you think I should get a dedicated IP?  I had read mixed things
from random articles, but I weight advice on FOSS mailing lists higher
than 99% of random articles, assuming that we're on the topic the
mailing list is about

> I give positive points for some RP categories as I have the vague impresssion 
> that it its, for mail that arrives at my server, correlated
with spam:

>score   RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED  -2  # was -3

I'm a little confused which way you mean this.  If I understand
correctly, positive points in SA are bad, but you are subtracting
points with your rule.  Are you saying you get less spam from domains
listed by RP?

Anyway, I might have to migrate my domain and get a dedicated IP
first, but with a dedicated IP, I could try to get on dnwsl.org.  I
imagine that would have a similar effect, minus having to spend money,
right?

> "listed as contacts" sort of sounds like you are spamming...

Honestly, I wasn't sure how to explain this without going down the
rabbit hole of explaining my whole situation.  Any contact I'm
"cold-emailing" is coming from a page with text such as:

>> If you have researched the website and cannot determine where your product 
>> will fit within [company], contact the corporate Global Supplier Diversity 
>> Program office for guidance

followed by a list of contacts for each location.  This is actually an
unusual example because this company has a supplier application form,
whereas the contacts are the only way to reach out to many other
organizations.  Reaching out to these people is equivalent to reaching
out to "sa...@company.tld", or "i...@company.tld".

> That is probably your entire issue.  UCEPROTECT

So you basically recommend switching from NameCheap, to a registrar
that isn't listed on UCEPROTECT_LVL3?  A part of me hates to do it,
since I'm basically validating UCEPROTECT's philosophy, but it'll cost
me, what, $8?  I could live with that, if this is your number one
suggestion.  I'll even write to NameCheap and tell them this is why
I'm leaving.

> .space is Widely Regarded as Sketchy

I still have pretty strong feelings about this, but that's a debate
for a different time and a different thread.  Would you say I am
likely to solve my problem without changing domain names?

> As for your "domain", also look up the IP address your mail comes from, 
> because that's more important.> A lookup service I have found useful is:

>https://multirbl.valli.org/

Ok, actually, I got some interesting results for 136.143.188.53, which
is a Zoho server I have apparently sent mail from.  Some blacklists,
some yellow lists, some whitelists, and a bunch of blue and red.  Do
you think Zoho is the bigger problem than NameCheap?
*

My takeaway here is that I should be switching registrars, I should
probably pay for a dedicated IP address, and once I'm getting a
dedicated IP, anyway, I should try to get on a whitelist (probably
dnswl, unless you have a better suggestion).  Would you agree with
that summary?  Or do you think Zoho is the more likely problem?

RE: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Marc]

Complain to the European Union. It is not in Microsoft's and google's interest 
to fix this. By frustrating/sabotaging other providers services, they create an 
environment where users are forced to switch to the outlook.com/gmail.com 
cloud. Eg. what you have done is already more than gmail.com is doing, they are 
still working with an spf ~all.

This companies have billions in cash, so there is no reason not to fix this 
problem. This is just a management decision.


> 
> 
>   I am also having a world of trouble getting my emails to Outlook
> users.  For reference, my work domain has one user (me).  I have had the
> account for about 9 months and I have not yet sent 100 emails.  I
> typically send an email to a single recipient, although I will
> occasionally CC a handful of people.
> 
> 
> 
>   What I’ve tried:
> 
> 
> 
>   1.  I have also set up SPF, DKIM, and DMARC.  I’m *pretty sure*
> they’re solid.  Emails still go to junk.
>   2.  Initially, I didn’t have anything actually at the website for
> my domain, so I threw my executive summary into a google site.  Emails
> still go to junk
>   3.  I've checked our public IP and the domain name at
> mxtoolbox.com   – no errors, but it warns that a) my
> DMARC policy isn’t q or r, and b) it doesn’t care for my SOA
>   4.  I tried to get on Microsoft’s SDNS and JMRP, but I was not
> able.  I am pretty sure I have a shared IP, but I don’t know how I would
> check that.  Microsoft also suggested I join the Return Path Safe Senders
> program, but I am pretty sure I would need a dedicated IP for that.  In
> any case, I don’t love the idea of paying to get whitelisted so I can send
> 11 emails a month.
>   5.  I’ve checked several sites and my domain isn’t on any
> blacklists.  However, I did register the domain through NameCheap, which
> is on the UCEPROTECT_LVL3 list
>   6.  The domain is relatively new, as I said, but I don’t send any
> bulk mail of any kind from it.  All mail is either to people I
> specifically know, people to whom I have received a personal introduction,
> or people listed as contacts for their organization on public websites
>   7.  My mail is handled by Zoho Mail, so I haven’t done anything
> fancy with the mail server.  If there’s anything I should try, I will, but
> I might need the instructions at a fifth-grade level
>   8.  I am fairly careful with my words, and the emails are
> appropriately long, so I would be surprised if they were getting flagged
> for trigger words.   I have tried mail-tester.com 
> and it did not object to the body of my emails
>   9.  Mail-tester.com claims to test emails against SA, although I
> know this is a contentious point around here.  I bring it up, though,
> because the fact that my TLD is “.space” raised some flags
>   10. When I have called my contacts, they have been as confused as
> I am that they did not receive my emails
>   11. Emails I send to any other domains are never a problem spam-
> wise
> 

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Dominic Raferd]

On Sat, 19 Feb 2022, 01:10 Cian,  wrote:

> I am also having a world of trouble getting my emails to Outlook users.
> For reference, my work domain has one user (me).  I have had the account
> for about 9 months and I have not yet sent 100 emails.  I typically send an
> email to a single recipient, although I will occasionally CC a handful of
> people.
>
>
>
> What I’ve tried:
>
>
>
>1. I have also set up SPF, DKIM, and DMARC.  I’m **pretty sure**
>they’re solid.  Emails still go to junk.
>2. Initially, I didn’t have anything actually at the website for my
>domain, so I threw my executive summary into a google site.  Emails still
>go to junk
>3. I've checked our public IP and the domain name at mxtoolbox.com –
>no errors, but it warns that a) my DMARC policy isn’t q or r, and b) it
>doesn’t care for my SOA
>4. I tried to get on Microsoft’s SDNS and JMRP, but I was not able.  I
>am pretty sure I have a shared IP, but I don’t know how I would check
>that.  Microsoft also suggested I join the Return Path Safe Senders
>program, but I am pretty sure I would need a dedicated IP for that.  In any
>case, I don’t love the idea of paying to get whitelisted so I can send 11
>emails a month.
>5. I’ve checked several sites and my domain isn’t on any blacklists.
>However, I did register the domain through NameCheap, which is on the
>UCEPROTECT_LVL3 list
>6. The domain is relatively new, as I said, but I don’t send any bulk
>mail of any kind from it.  All mail is either to people I specifically
>know, people to whom I have received a personal introduction, or people
>listed as contacts for their organization on public websites
>7. My mail is handled by Zoho Mail, so I haven’t done anything fancy
>with the mail server.  If there’s anything I should try, I will, but I
>might need the instructions at a fifth-grade level
>8. I am fairly careful with my words, and the emails are appropriately
>long, so I would be surprised if they were getting flagged for trigger
>words.   I have tried mail-tester.com and it did not object to the
>body of my emails
>9. Mail-tester.com claims to test emails against SA, although I know
>this is a contentious point around here.  I bring it up, though, because
>the fact that my TLD is “.space” raised some flags
>10. When I have called my contacts, they have been as confused as I am
>that they did not receive my emails
>11. Emails I send to any other domains are never a problem spam-wise
>
>
>
> Notes:
>
>1. I do not have a list-unsubscribe header in my emails, for one
>because I don’t have a list, and for two, because I don’t really know how.
>I can add one if necessary, although ideally I’d like the language to be
>clear that my emails don’t go to a list of any kind
>2. I have a signature in my email.  It has my phone number, but no
>address because I don’t have a physical location yet.  Some articles
>suggested this is bad; I hate to put my home address in all my emails, but
>I can if necessary.  It’s in my Dun and Bradstreet profile, anyway
>3. My domain contacts are anonymized, courtesy of NameCheap.
>NameCheap made this sound appealing, but I read somewhere that this makes
>you look sketchy.  I could fix this, if necessary.
>
>
>
> I suspect I’ve already given you the smoking gun, but if this isn’t enough
> information to hit on the problem, I am happy to provide more
>
>
>
I don't think you mentioned whether you have a static or dynamic IP. With a
dynamic IP you will have many problems sending emails; the only solution is
to relay your outgoing emails through another mail server that has a static
IP.

>

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Greg Troxel]

Your mail is in html.  That will get it some points; I suggest
text/plain :-)   Many will say I'm just being a curmudgeon about
this.  Attempting to recover content and continuing:

Cian  writes:

  > I am also having a world of trouble getting my emails to Outlook
  > users.  For reference, my work domain has one user (me).  I have had
  > the account for about 9 months and I have not yet sent 100 emails.
  > I typically send an email to a single recipient, although I will
  > occasionally CC a handful of people. What I’ve tried: I have also
  > set up SPF, DKIM, and DMARC.  I’m *pretty sure* they’re solid.
  > Emails still go to junk.Initially, I didn’t have anything actually
  > at the website for my domain, so I threw my executive summary into a
  > google site.  Emails still go to junk I've checked our public IP and
  > the domain name at mxtoolbox.com – no errors, but it warns that a)
  > my DMARC policy isn’t q or r, and b) it doesn’t care for my SOA
 
I have only run into one scoring technique that complained about the
lack of a website at the sending domain.  I think that's totally
ridiculous.  There is no reason that mail from john...@example.com
should be considered suspect because trying to resolve example.com to an
A record and connecting to 80 or 443 fails.  Email predates the web by a
very long time.

  > I tried to get on Microsoft’s SDNS and JMRP, but I was not able.  I
  > am pretty sure I have a shared IP, but I don’t know how I would
  > check that.

This is the first I've heard of SDNS and JMRP.  However, the shared IP
comment is worth paying attention to.  Basically, much reputation is per
IP address, and hosting plans that put lots of customers on a single IP
address cause them to be affected by each other's behavior in terms of
blocklists.  That is not good for you.

  > Microsoft also suggested I join the Return Path Safe Senders
  > program, but I am pretty sure I would need a dedicated IP for that.

I give positive points for some RP categories as I have the vague
impresssion that it its, for mail that arrives at my server, correlated
with spam:

score   RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED  -2  # was -3

  > In any case, I don’t love the idea of paying to get whitelisted so I
  > can send 11 emails a month.I’ve checked several sites and my domain
  > isn’t on any blacklists.

Generally the view in the open source spam world is that a list that
asks you to pay to get good treatment (removal from blacklistt, addition
to whitelist) is unethical.

As for your "domain", also look up the IP address your mail comes from,
because that's more important.  A lookup service I have found useful is:

https://multirbl.valli.org/

  > However, I did register the domain through NameCheap, which is on
  > the UCEPROTECT_LVL3 list.

That is probably your entire issue.  UCEPROTECT is at best
controversial.  Take everything you read on the internet with a grain of
salt, but just earlier today I had cause to read about this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_DNS_blacklists
https://www.linode.com/community/questions/20952/linode-blacklisted-on-uceprotect-rbl
https://blog.sucuri.net/2021/02/uceprotect-when-rbls-go-bad.html

  > The domain is relatively new, as I said, but I don’t send any bulk
  > mail of any kind from it.  All mail is either to people I
  > specifically know, people to whom I have received a personal
  > introduction, or people listed as contacts for their organization on
  > public websitesMy mail is handled by Zoho Mail, so I haven’t done

"listed as contacts" sort of sounds like you are spamming...

  > anything fancy with the mail server.  If there’s anything I should
  > try, I will, but I might need the instructions at a fifth-grade
  > levelI am fairly careful with my words, and the emails are
  > appropriately long, so I would be surprised if they were getting
  > flagged for trigger words.  I have tried mail-tester.com and it did
  > not object to the body of my emailsMail-tester.com claims to test
  > emails against SA, although I know this is a contentious point
  > around here.  I bring it up, though, because the fact that my TLD is
  > “.space” raised some flagsWhen I have called my contacts, they have

.space is Widely Regarded as Sketchy.

  > been as confused as I am that they did not receive my emailsEmails I
  > send to any other domains are never a problem spam-wise Notes: I do
  > not have a list-unsubscribe header in my emails, for one because I
  > don’t have a list, and for two, because I don’t really know how.  I
  > can add one if necessary, although ideally I’d like the language to
  > be clear that my emails don’t go to a list of any kindI have a
  > signature in my email.  It has my phone number, but no address
  > because I don’t have a physical location yet.  Some articles
  > suggested this is bad; I hate to put my home address in all my
  > emails, but I can if necessary.  It’s in my Dun and Bradstreet
  > profile, anywayMy domain contacts 

RE: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Cian]

I am also having a world of trouble getting my emails to Outlook users.  For reference, my work domain has one user (me).  I have had the account for about 9 months and I have not yet sent 100 emails.  I typically send an email to a single recipient, although I will occasionally CC a handful of people. What I’ve tried: I have also set up SPF, DKIM, and DMARC.  I’m *pretty sure* they’re solid.  Emails still go to junk.Initially, I didn’t have anything actually at the website for my domain, so I threw my executive summary into a google site.  Emails still go to junk I've checked our public IP and the domain name at mxtoolbox.com – no errors, but it warns that a) my DMARC policy isn’t q or r, and b) it doesn’t care for my SOAI tried to get on Microsoft’s SDNS and JMRP, but I was not able.  I am pretty sure I have a shared IP, but I don’t know how I would check that.  Microsoft also suggested I join the Return Path Safe Senders program, but I am pretty sure I would need a dedicated IP for that.  In any case, I don’t love the idea of paying to get whitelisted so I can send 11 emails a month.I’ve checked several sites and my domain isn’t on any blacklists.  However, I did register the domain through NameCheap, which is on the UCEPROTECT_LVL3 listThe domain is relatively new, as I said, but I don’t send any bulk mail of any kind from it.  All mail is either to people I specifically know, people to whom I have received a personal introduction, or people listed as contacts for their organization on public websitesMy mail is handled by Zoho Mail, so I haven’t done anything fancy with the mail server.  If there’s anything I should try, I will, but I might need the instructions at a fifth-grade levelI am fairly careful with my words, and the emails are appropriately long, so I would be surprised if they were getting flagged for trigger words.   I have tried mail-tester.com and it did not object to the body of my emailsMail-tester.com claims to test emails against SA, although I know this is a contentious point around here.  I bring it up, though, because the fact that my TLD is “.space” raised some flagsWhen I have called my contacts, they have been as confused as I am that they did not receive my emailsEmails I send to any other domains are never a problem spam-wise Notes: I do not have a list-unsubscribe header in my emails, for one because I don’t have a list, and for two, because I don’t really know how.  I can add one if necessary, although ideally I’d like the language to be clear that my emails don’t go to a list of any kindI have a signature in my email.  It has my phone number, but no address because I don’t have a physical location yet.  Some articles suggested this is bad; I hate to put my home address in all my emails, but I can if necessary.  It’s in my Dun and Bradstreet profile, anywayMy domain contacts are anonymized, courtesy of NameCheap.  NameCheap made this sound appealing, but I read somewhere that this makes you look sketchy.  I could fix this, if necessary.  I suspect I’ve already given you the smoking gun, but if this isn’t enough information to hit on the problem, I am happy to provide more 

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Groach]

On 26/09/2017 20:08, David Jones wrote:
There is the possibility that Hotmail doesn't like our IP address 
because it is a consumer/ADSL/end-user IP - although I've removed it 
from the Spamhaus PBL database. I guess Hotmail must be using an 
internal database


I would put money on this being the cause.  If you are on a domestic 
line then you have no chance on being seen and accepted by Hotmail 
without problems.  (Im surprised some of the other big players dont 
cause you problems too).


Also, Hotmail use symantec as part of their spam checking: 
http://ipremoval.sms.symantec.com/lookup/ FYI check your ip on that.

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[David Jones]

On 09/26/2017 04:03 AM, Sebastian Arcus wrote:

On 21/09/17 11:13, Zulma Pape wrote:
It means that your ip is greylisted in their end. There are many 
solutions to fix this issue, but the easiest and cheapest one is the 
get a new ip, and refill the form and see their feedback about it. If 
it qualifies for mitigation then you'll start friendly with them, then 
they'll build a new reputation on your historic. If not, you can get a 
new ip and do the same steps until you get a friendly IP.
Thank you for the suggestions. I'm afraid we can't just keep on changing 
IP addresses, as there is other infrastructure tied to this IP address 
(vpn, external laptops etc.) - so it would involve quite a bit of 
reconfiguration. Also, I doubt that it would do much good, as we've had 
this IP address for 5 years - so it is clean. There is the possibility 
that Hotmail doesn't like our IP address because it is a 
consumer/ADSL/end-user IP - although I've removed it from the Spamhaus 
PBL database. I guess Hotmail must be using an internal database. In 
this case changing to another end-user IP wouldn't do much good.




Another solution is, since your volume is very low at the moment, it 
should be quite easy for you to ask from your list to add your Sender 
to their contact list. This will prevent your emails from going to 
junk folder, and at the same time this will increase the reputation of 
your IP.


I will ask a number of contacts to mark our emails as safe - who knows, 
maybe it will help. Thank you.




You shouldn't have to ask recipient mail server admins to whitelist 
anything if everything is setup correctly.  Did you send test emails to 
the https://www.mail-tester.com/ site and get a high score?  Your FCrDNS 
looks correct, SPF is good and passing, IP 195.166.150.162 is not on any 
major RBLs.  Senderscore.org doesn't have a score yet due to 
insufficient email seen from it.


Sign up for https://www.dnswl.org/selfservice/ and get your IP address 
listed with them.  This could only help.


From my experience, you don't have to accept mail on postmaster or 
abuse to be a trusted sender.  Since IPs can't be spoofed in an SMTP 
(TCP 25) session, your ISP based on ASN information needs to accept mail 
on postmaster or abuse.  It looks like your ISP of PlusNet does have a 
good ab...@plus.net contact setup so that should be fine.


--
David Jones

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Rupert Gallagher]

You need to learn from the feedback you received. Your server is still 
rejecting mail to postmas...@open-t.co.uk and ab...@open-t.co.uk, no wonder you 
are blacklisted!

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Sebastian Arcus]

On 21/09/17 11:13, Zulma Pape wrote:
It means that your ip is greylisted in their end. There are many 
solutions to fix this issue, but the easiest and cheapest one is the get 
a new ip, and refill the form and see their feedback about it. If it 
qualifies for mitigation then you'll start friendly with them, then 
they'll build a new reputation on your historic. If not, you can get a 
new ip and do the same steps until you get a friendly IP.
Thank you for the suggestions. I'm afraid we can't just keep on changing 
IP addresses, as there is other infrastructure tied to this IP address 
(vpn, external laptops etc.) - so it would involve quite a bit of 
reconfiguration. Also, I doubt that it would do much good, as we've had 
this IP address for 5 years - so it is clean. There is the possibility 
that Hotmail doesn't like our IP address because it is a 
consumer/ADSL/end-user IP - although I've removed it from the Spamhaus 
PBL database. I guess Hotmail must be using an internal database. In 
this case changing to another end-user IP wouldn't do much good.




Another solution is, since your volume is very low at the moment, it 
should be quite easy for you to ask from your list to add your Sender to 
their contact list. This will prevent your emails from going to junk 
folder, and at the same time this will increase the reputation of your IP.


I will ask a number of contacts to mark our emails as safe - who knows, 
maybe it will help. Thank you.

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Benny Pedersen]

John Hardin skrev den 2017-09-21 17:06:

and just received an email saying that the IP address doesn't qualify 
for mitigation. I'm not
sure if that means that the IP address is already clean at their end, 
or it is blacklisted

or greylisted, but they don't want to unblock it.

Or perhaps "you're too small for us to care."


or to big to solve

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[John Hardin]

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017, Sebastian Arcus wrote:

and just received an email saying that the IP address doesn't qualify 
for mitigation. I'm not sure if that means that the IP address is 
already clean at their end, or it is blacklisted or greylisted, but they 
don't want to unblock it.


Or perhaps "you're too small for us to care."


--
 John Hardin KA7OHZhttp://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
 jhar...@impsec.orgFALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhar...@impsec.org
 key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C  AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
---
  Where We Want You To Go Today 09/13/07: Microsoft patents in-OS
  adware architecture that incorporates monitoring and analysis of
  user actions and interrupting the user to display apparently
  relevant advertisements (U.S. Patent #20070214042)
---
 175 days since the first commercial re-flight of an orbital booster (SpaceX)

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Sebastian Arcus]

On 21/09/17 10:28, Zulma Pape wrote:


Here is the link to the forms I talked about. Good luck !

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/getsupport?oaspworkflow=start_1.0.0.0=capsub=edfsmsbl3=en-us=635622755123113400


Thank you for that - I've just managed to find that form in the maize of 
MS website about an hour ago. I've filled it out and submitted it - and 
just received an email saying that the IP address doesn't qualify for 
mitigation. I'm not sure if that means that the IP address is already 
clean at their end, or it is blacklisted or greylisted, but they don't 
want to unblock it.






On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 8:40 AM, Sebastian Arcus > wrote:


On 19/09/17 10:29, Zulma Pape wrote:

There are tons of ways to get your IP a good reputation with
Hotmail.

Start setting up the SNDS, this will help you monitor your
reputation directly with Microsoft.


Hi - thank you for the suggestions. I have signed up for the SNDS
programme - which looks potentially useful. Unfortunately, SNDS does
not show mail and spam traffic stats for IP addresses sending less
than 100 mails per day - which seems to be the case of this
particular site. The IP Status page lists our IP as having normal
status - so I guess it's all good there.


You should also try filling their support forms, they will check
your IP's historic reputation and act accordingly to it, and
since your background is good, the feedback should be positive
for you.


I have seen references to this form on various historic forum posts
- but the links I followed are all dead. Has this form been removed?





On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:25 AM, Sebastian Arcus

>> wrote:

     This is a bit off topic as it is not directly related to
SA, but I'm
     hoping that with the email and spam expertise on this
group, someone
     might throw in a useful idea - which would be much appreciated.

     I have this problem on one site where most emails we send to
     Hotmail/Outlook.com/Live.com email addresses end up in Junk
at the
     recipient's end. Things I have tried:

     1. I've setup SPF, DKIM, DMARC (and set it to 'reject').

     2. We used to smart relay outbound email through the hosting
     provider (1and1), but now changed to send directly from our
own IP
     address, so that we can control the reputation of the
sending IP -
     no change.

     3. I've checked our public IP and the domain name at
mxtoolbox.com 
      - all tests pass (the public IP has been
     delisted from the Spamhaus non-MX/end-user IP database).

     4. I've setup forward and reverse DNS entries for our IP
address.

     5. I've checked with all DNS blocklists/blacklists I could
find -
     our domain or IP address is not flagged up anywhere.

     6. This is a small network which I've been managing for
years - the
     domain name has not been used to send marketing/lists email
of any
     sort - so the historic reputation should be fine.

     7. I've setup a monitor and block on port 25 outbound on
the network
     firewall - in case there is a trojan on a machine on the
network
     sending out spam and ruining the reputation of our IP -
it's never
     been triggered.

     8. I've checked the contents of outgoing emails - this is an
     accountants practice - the email content is standard, there is
     nothing there which should trigger bayesian filters.

     9. I've sent emails to other servers under my control
running SA -
     the scores come out perfect at the receiving end.

     10. The emails we send are operational and notices emails to
     customers - who need them. They call on the phone and
complain they
     haven't received them - just to discover they were sent,
but ended
     up in the junk.

     11. Emails we send to any other domains are never a problem
spam-wise.

     I can't really think of anything else to try - have I missed
     anything? Are Hotmail/Outlook.com spam filters a complete
lottery?

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Sebastian Arcus]

On 19/09/17 17:17, Jerry Malcolm wrote:
My recommendation as a first step is to go to mail-tester.com. They will 
tell you to send an email to a temp email address, and they will analyze 
and grade your email as to 'spamy-ness'. Outlook, gmail, etc were 
flagging a lot of my emails.  After I finally fixed everything and got 
mail-tester.com to give me a perfect score, I haven't had any problem 
with getting flagged.


Hi - and thanks for the suggestion. I've tried in the past another 
similar service - and now I've tried mail-tester.com - it returned a 
score of 10/10






Jerry


On 9/19/2017 1:44 AM, G Roach wrote:
Microsoft use their own methods of detection including based on 
reputation and 'length of service' - ie, if you have only just started 
sending emails out from your own address (which you have) then they 
may well consider you suspicious. Theres not much yo can do about it. 
  More info here: https://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx




On 19/09/2017 07:25, Sebastian Arcus wrote:
This is a bit off topic as it is not directly related to SA, but I'm 
hoping that with the email and spam expertise on this group, someone 
might throw in a useful idea - which would be much appreciated.


I have this problem on one site where most emails we send to 
Hotmail/Outlook.com/Live.com email addresses end up in Junk at the 
recipient's end. Things I have tried:


1. I've setup SPF, DKIM, DMARC (and set it to 'reject').

2. We used to smart relay outbound email through the hosting provider 
(1and1), but now changed to send directly from our own IP address, so 
that we can control the reputation of the sending IP - no change.


3. I've checked our public IP and the domain name at mxtoolbox.com - 
all tests pass (the public IP has been delisted from the Spamhaus 
non-MX/end-user IP database).


4. I've setup forward and reverse DNS entries for our IP address.

5. I've checked with all DNS blocklists/blacklists I could find - our 
domain or IP address is not flagged up anywhere.


6. This is a small network which I've been managing for years - the 
domain name has not been used to send marketing/lists email of any 
sort - so the historic reputation should be fine.


7. I've setup a monitor and block on port 25 outbound on the network 
firewall - in case there is a trojan on a machine on the network 
sending out spam and ruining the reputation of our IP - it's never 
been triggered.


8. I've checked the contents of outgoing emails - this is an 
accountants practice - the email content is standard, there is 
nothing there which should trigger bayesian filters.


9. I've sent emails to other servers under my control running SA - 
the scores come out perfect at the receiving end.


10. The emails we send are operational and notices emails to 
customers - who need them. They call on the phone and complain they 
haven't received them - just to discover they were sent, but ended up 
in the junk.


11. Emails we send to any other domains are never a problem spam-wise.

I can't really think of anything else to try - have I missed 
anything? Are Hotmail/Outlook.com spam filters a complete lottery?

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Sebastian Arcus]

On 19/09/17 10:29, Zulma Pape wrote:

There are tons of ways to get your IP a good reputation with Hotmail.

Start setting up the SNDS, this will help you monitor your reputation 
directly with Microsoft.


Hi - thank you for the suggestions. I have signed up for the SNDS 
programme - which looks potentially useful. Unfortunately, SNDS does not 
show mail and spam traffic stats for IP addresses sending less than 100 
mails per day - which seems to be the case of this particular site. The 
IP Status page lists our IP as having normal status - so I guess it's 
all good there.




You should also try filling their support forms, they will check your 
IP's historic reputation and act accordingly to it, and since your 
background is good, the feedback should be positive for you.


I have seen references to this form on various historic forum posts - 
but the links I followed are all dead. Has this form been removed?







On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:25 AM, Sebastian Arcus > wrote:


This is a bit off topic as it is not directly related to SA, but I'm
hoping that with the email and spam expertise on this group, someone
might throw in a useful idea - which would be much appreciated.

I have this problem on one site where most emails we send to
Hotmail/Outlook.com/Live.com email addresses end up in Junk at the
recipient's end. Things I have tried:

1. I've setup SPF, DKIM, DMARC (and set it to 'reject').

2. We used to smart relay outbound email through the hosting
provider (1and1), but now changed to send directly from our own IP
address, so that we can control the reputation of the sending IP -
no change.

3. I've checked our public IP and the domain name at mxtoolbox.com
 - all tests pass (the public IP has been
delisted from the Spamhaus non-MX/end-user IP database).

4. I've setup forward and reverse DNS entries for our IP address.

5. I've checked with all DNS blocklists/blacklists I could find -
our domain or IP address is not flagged up anywhere.

6. This is a small network which I've been managing for years - the
domain name has not been used to send marketing/lists email of any
sort - so the historic reputation should be fine.

7. I've setup a monitor and block on port 25 outbound on the network
firewall - in case there is a trojan on a machine on the network
sending out spam and ruining the reputation of our IP - it's never
been triggered.

8. I've checked the contents of outgoing emails - this is an
accountants practice - the email content is standard, there is
nothing there which should trigger bayesian filters.

9. I've sent emails to other servers under my control running SA -
the scores come out perfect at the receiving end.

10. The emails we send are operational and notices emails to
customers - who need them. They call on the phone and complain they
haven't received them - just to discover they were sent, but ended
up in the junk.

11. Emails we send to any other domains are never a problem spam-wise.

I can't really think of anything else to try - have I missed
anything? Are Hotmail/Outlook.com spam filters a complete lottery?

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[David B Funk]

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017, Rupert Gallagher wrote:


> 10. The emails we send are operational and notices emails to customers - 
who need them. They call on the phone and complain they haven't received 
them - just to discover they were sent, but ended up in the junk. 

Tell them to send you a copy of the header, then look for clues in their 
anti-spam report. 


Good luck with that.
Have you ever seen the kind of stuff that M$ adds to 
Hotmail/Outlook.com/Office365 etc.. messages?


Then when you try to track down any info on how to iterpret the dense pile of 
stuff in a 'x-forefront-antispam-report' header you run into this page:

https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn205071(v=exchg.150).aspx

Note the paragraph:

 After accessing the message header information, search for
 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report and then look for these fields. Other fields in
 this header are used exclusively by the Microsoft anti-spam team for diagnostic
 purposes.

IE, we're not tellin..

Having been in the same situation as the OP (Done the full Monty monkey dance, 
MX, DKIM, SPF, abuse@, etc) the only thing that I can say is it's all VouDoo.



--
Dave Funk  University of Iowa
College of Engineering
319/335-5751   FAX: 319/384-0549   1256 Seamans Center
Sys_admin/Postmaster/cell_adminIowa City, IA 52242-1527
#include 
Better is not better, 'standard' is better. B{

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Rupert Gallagher]

> 10. The emails we send are operational and notices emails to customers -
who need them. They call on the phone and complain they haven't received
them - just to discover they were sent, but ended up in the junk.

Tell them to send you a copy of the header, then look for clues in their 
anti-spam report.

Sent from ProtonMail Mobile

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Rupert Gallagher]

Allow incoming to postmaster@ and abuse@.

Sent from ProtonMail Mobile

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 8:25 AM, Sebastian Arcus  wrote:

> This is a bit off topic as it is not directly related to SA, but I'm hoping 
> that with the email and spam expertise on this group, someone might throw in 
> a useful idea - which would be much appreciated. I have this problem on one 
> site where most emails we send to Hotmail/Outlook.com/Live.com email 
> addresses end up in Junk at the recipient's end. Things I have tried: 1. I've 
> setup SPF, DKIM, DMARC (and set it to 'reject'). 2. We used to smart relay 
> outbound email through the hosting provider (1and1), but now changed to send 
> directly from our own IP address, so that we can control the reputation of 
> the sending IP - no change. 3. I've checked our public IP and the domain name 
> at mxtoolbox.com - all tests pass (the public IP has been delisted from the 
> Spamhaus non-MX/end-user IP database). 4. I've setup forward and reverse DNS 
> entries for our IP address. 5. I've checked with all DNS 
> blocklists/blacklists I could find - our domain or IP address is not flagged 
> up anywhere. 6. This is a small network which I've been managing for years - 
> the domain name has not been used to send marketing/lists email of any sort - 
> so the historic reputation should be fine. 7. I've setup a monitor and block 
> on port 25 outbound on the network firewall - in case there is a trojan on a 
> machine on the network sending out spam and ruining the reputation of our IP 
> - it's never been triggered. 8. I've checked the contents of outgoing emails 
> - this is an accountants practice - the email content is standard, there is 
> nothing there which should trigger bayesian filters. 9. I've sent emails to 
> other servers under my control running SA - the scores come out perfect at 
> the receiving end. 10. The emails we send are operational and notices emails 
> to customers - who need them. They call on the phone and complain they 
> haven't received them - just to discover they were sent, but ended up in the 
> junk. 11. Emails we send to any other domains are never a problem spam-wise. 
> I can't really think of anything else to try - have I missed anything? Are 
> Hotmail/Outlook.com spam filters a complete lottery?

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[Jerry Malcolm]

My recommendation as a first step is to go to mail-tester.com. They will 
tell you to send an email to a temp email address, and they will analyze 
and grade your email as to 'spamy-ness'. Outlook, gmail, etc were 
flagging a lot of my emails.  After I finally fixed everything and got 
mail-tester.com to give me a perfect score, I haven't had any problem 
with getting flagged.


Jerry


On 9/19/2017 1:44 AM, G Roach wrote:
Microsoft use their own methods of detection including based on 
reputation and 'length of service' - ie, if you have only just started 
sending emails out from your own address (which you have) then they 
may well consider you suspicious. Theres not much yo can do about it. 
  More info here: https://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx




On 19/09/2017 07:25, Sebastian Arcus wrote:
This is a bit off topic as it is not directly related to SA, but I'm 
hoping that with the email and spam expertise on this group, someone 
might throw in a useful idea - which would be much appreciated.


I have this problem on one site where most emails we send to 
Hotmail/Outlook.com/Live.com email addresses end up in Junk at the 
recipient's end. Things I have tried:


1. I've setup SPF, DKIM, DMARC (and set it to 'reject').

2. We used to smart relay outbound email through the hosting provider 
(1and1), but now changed to send directly from our own IP address, so 
that we can control the reputation of the sending IP - no change.


3. I've checked our public IP and the domain name at mxtoolbox.com - 
all tests pass (the public IP has been delisted from the Spamhaus 
non-MX/end-user IP database).


4. I've setup forward and reverse DNS entries for our IP address.

5. I've checked with all DNS blocklists/blacklists I could find - our 
domain or IP address is not flagged up anywhere.


6. This is a small network which I've been managing for years - the 
domain name has not been used to send marketing/lists email of any 
sort - so the historic reputation should be fine.


7. I've setup a monitor and block on port 25 outbound on the network 
firewall - in case there is a trojan on a machine on the network 
sending out spam and ruining the reputation of our IP - it's never 
been triggered.


8. I've checked the contents of outgoing emails - this is an 
accountants practice - the email content is standard, there is 
nothing there which should trigger bayesian filters.


9. I've sent emails to other servers under my control running SA - 
the scores come out perfect at the receiving end.


10. The emails we send are operational and notices emails to 
customers - who need them. They call on the phone and complain they 
haven't received them - just to discover they were sent, but ended up 
in the junk.


11. Emails we send to any other domains are never a problem spam-wise.

I can't really think of anything else to try - have I missed 
anything? Are Hotmail/Outlook.com spam filters a complete lottery?

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[David Jones]

On 09/19/2017 01:25 AM, Sebastian Arcus wrote:
This is a bit off topic as it is not directly related to SA, but I'm 
hoping that with the email and spam expertise on this group, someone 
might throw in a useful idea - which would be much appreciated.


I have this problem on one site where most emails we send to 
Hotmail/Outlook.com/Live.com email addresses end up in Junk at the 
recipient's end. Things I have tried:


1. I've setup SPF, DKIM, DMARC (and set it to 'reject').

2. We used to smart relay outbound email through the hosting provider 
(1and1), but now changed to send directly from our own IP address, so 
that we can control the reputation of the sending IP - no change.


3. I've checked our public IP and the domain name at mxtoolbox.com - all 
tests pass (the public IP has been delisted from the Spamhaus 
non-MX/end-user IP database).


4. I've setup forward and reverse DNS entries for our IP address.

5. I've checked with all DNS blocklists/blacklists I could find - our 
domain or IP address is not flagged up anywhere.


6. This is a small network which I've been managing for years - the 
domain name has not been used to send marketing/lists email of any sort 
- so the historic reputation should be fine.


7. I've setup a monitor and block on port 25 outbound on the network 
firewall - in case there is a trojan on a machine on the network sending 
out spam and ruining the reputation of our IP - it's never been triggered.


8. I've checked the contents of outgoing emails - this is an accountants 
practice - the email content is standard, there is nothing there which 
should trigger bayesian filters.


9. I've sent emails to other servers under my control running SA - the 
scores come out perfect at the receiving end.


10. The emails we send are operational and notices emails to customers - 
who need them. They call on the phone and complain they haven't received 
them - just to discover they were sent, but ended up in the junk.


11. Emails we send to any other domains are never a problem spam-wise.

I can't really think of anything else to try - have I missed anything? 
Are Hotmail/Outlook.com spam filters a complete lottery?


It would help to see an example of this email in pastbin.  I beleive you 
when you say you have everything setup correctly but seeing an example 
may trigger an idea.


Also, you should try to send an email to https://www.mail-tester.com and 
see how it's scored.  This is an easy way to check everything above from 
a receiver's perspective.  From everything you have said above, you 
should get a score of 10 with a good/normal subject and message body.


--
David Jones

Re: OT - Hotmail/Outlook.com marking most of our email as Junk

[G Roach]

Microsoft use their own methods of detection including based on 
reputation and 'length of service' - ie, if you have only just started 
sending emails out from your own address (which you have) then they may 
well consider you suspicious. Theres not much yo can do about it.   More 
info here: https://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx




On 19/09/2017 07:25, Sebastian Arcus wrote:
This is a bit off topic as it is not directly related to SA, but I'm 
hoping that with the email and spam expertise on this group, someone 
might throw in a useful idea - which would be much appreciated.


I have this problem on one site where most emails we send to 
Hotmail/Outlook.com/Live.com email addresses end up in Junk at the 
recipient's end. Things I have tried:


1. I've setup SPF, DKIM, DMARC (and set it to 'reject').

2. We used to smart relay outbound email through the hosting provider 
(1and1), but now changed to send directly from our own IP address, so 
that we can control the reputation of the sending IP - no change.


3. I've checked our public IP and the domain name at mxtoolbox.com - 
all tests pass (the public IP has been delisted from the Spamhaus 
non-MX/end-user IP database).


4. I've setup forward and reverse DNS entries for our IP address.

5. I've checked with all DNS blocklists/blacklists I could find - our 
domain or IP address is not flagged up anywhere.


6. This is a small network which I've been managing for years - the 
domain name has not been used to send marketing/lists email of any 
sort - so the historic reputation should be fine.


7. I've setup a monitor and block on port 25 outbound on the network 
firewall - in case there is a trojan on a machine on the network 
sending out spam and ruining the reputation of our IP - it's never 
been triggered.


8. I've checked the contents of outgoing emails - this is an 
accountants practice - the email content is standard, there is nothing 
there which should trigger bayesian filters.


9. I've sent emails to other servers under my control running SA - the 
scores come out perfect at the receiving end.


10. The emails we send are operational and notices emails to customers 
- who need them. They call on the phone and complain they haven't 
received them - just to discover they were sent, but ended up in the 
junk.


11. Emails we send to any other domains are never a problem spam-wise.

I can't really think of anything else to try - have I missed anything? 
Are Hotmail/Outlook.com spam filters a complete lottery?