Re: Tag Oriented Development
IMHO. The good things about standards is that they introduce some order in places where otherwise complete chaos would arise... e.g. by several software vendors implementing similar functionality on non-compatible ways. The bad thing about standards is specifications have to be maintained and that is not always easy... as vendors will try to push in their own "custom" features and let out others' custom features. That's usually the way new things get adopted into many standards... In practice there are many kinds of decision makers... and, in some cases, even having the best engineers building a good case in favor of a non standard technology, decision makers might opt to adopt the standard (or a solution the engineers were against to use). I have seen that happening before... Unfortunately this is not a simple matter... On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Loritsch, Berin C. < berin.lorit...@gd-ais.com> wrote: > The good thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. > > .Net is a standard, Java is a standard, PERL is a standard, JavaScript is a > standard. As are CSS, HTML, etc. > > As we all know, just because something is a standard does not mean that it > is good, fits the problem, or is implemented properly or in any meaningful > way. It is important to understand the thinking that goes into one of the > standards. > > In business, the reason decision makers choose standards is because they > want easily replaceable cogs that require little training. They've been > trying to get software engineers to pay obeisance to this thinking for > years, but the engineers can always come up with good reasons why a standard > is not a good fit. The exceptional engineers can do it in a way that even > the decision makers see the value in dropping a "standard". > > -Original Message- > From: Altuğ B. Altıntaş [mailto:alt...@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 2:51 PM > To: users@wicket.apache.org > Subject: Re: Tag Oriented Development > > Agreed > > 2009/12/25 > > > JSF == Standard? > > > > My question is: What should become a standard? > > > > When I think about standards, then things that come to mind are: > > > > - SQL > > - ODBC > > - Java > > - JDBC > > - EJB > > - JPA > > > > but not JSF. And not Spring. And not ... - you name it. > > > > For some reason, possibly due to the fast evolving nature of the web, > > web frameworks are higher up in the food chain, and I don't think that > > we are ready yet to standardize on that level. People may say JSF is a > > standard, so what? The fact that there are so many others seems to > > prove my point. > > > > Bernard > > > > > > > > On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:59:16 +0200, you wrote: > > > > >In business, decision makers choose standards and JSF is standard so JSF > > is > > >good and JSF is the King. But couldn't be "The King Is Naked" ?? > > > > > >OR > > > > > >Am i wrong ? JSF is really cool and i don't know the hidden features ?? > > > > > >I don't want to start framework wars, this is useless but I think Wicket > > >should be a JSR. > > > > > >I don't know how a framework like Wicket become a JSR - a standard - but > > it > > >should be... > > > > > > > > >2009/12/22 Peter Thomas > > > > > >> On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro < > > >> reier...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> > > >> > @Tomas, @Martin, > > >> > > > >> > I already knew those links... Thanks anyway. Actually I went a bit > > >> further > > >> > an implemented the same "application" on different technologies so > > that > > >> > developers could evaluate for themselves the wonders of "downsides" > of > > >> each > > >> > technology... plus detailed explanations of how the code works > > >> > Unfortunately I cannot share that code as is property of the company > I > > >> work > > >> > for > > >> > > >> > > >> That's a pretty solid approach, pity you can't share the code though. > I > > >> tried to do something similar as open-source: > > >> http://code.google.com/p/perfbench/ > > >> > > >> Maybe you can contribute some analysis or even an implementation or > two > > ;) > > >> I would be interested in your feedback, for
RE: Tag Oriented Development
The good thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. .Net is a standard, Java is a standard, PERL is a standard, JavaScript is a standard. As are CSS, HTML, etc. As we all know, just because something is a standard does not mean that it is good, fits the problem, or is implemented properly or in any meaningful way. It is important to understand the thinking that goes into one of the standards. In business, the reason decision makers choose standards is because they want easily replaceable cogs that require little training. They've been trying to get software engineers to pay obeisance to this thinking for years, but the engineers can always come up with good reasons why a standard is not a good fit. The exceptional engineers can do it in a way that even the decision makers see the value in dropping a "standard". -Original Message- From: Altuğ B. Altıntaş [mailto:alt...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 2:51 PM To: users@wicket.apache.org Subject: Re: Tag Oriented Development Agreed 2009/12/25 > JSF == Standard? > > My question is: What should become a standard? > > When I think about standards, then things that come to mind are: > > - SQL > - ODBC > - Java > - JDBC > - EJB > - JPA > > but not JSF. And not Spring. And not ... - you name it. > > For some reason, possibly due to the fast evolving nature of the web, > web frameworks are higher up in the food chain, and I don't think that > we are ready yet to standardize on that level. People may say JSF is a > standard, so what? The fact that there are so many others seems to > prove my point. > > Bernard > > > > On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:59:16 +0200, you wrote: > > >In business, decision makers choose standards and JSF is standard so JSF > is > >good and JSF is the King. But couldn't be "The King Is Naked" ?? > > > >OR > > > >Am i wrong ? JSF is really cool and i don't know the hidden features ?? > > > >I don't want to start framework wars, this is useless but I think Wicket > >should be a JSR. > > > >I don't know how a framework like Wicket become a JSR - a standard - but > it > >should be... > > > > > >2009/12/22 Peter Thomas > > > >> On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro < > >> reier...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> > @Tomas, @Martin, > >> > > >> > I already knew those links... Thanks anyway. Actually I went a bit > >> further > >> > an implemented the same "application" on different technologies so > that > >> > developers could evaluate for themselves the wonders of "downsides" of > >> each > >> > technology... plus detailed explanations of how the code works > >> > Unfortunately I cannot share that code as is property of the company I > >> work > >> > for > >> > >> > >> That's a pretty solid approach, pity you can't share the code though. I > >> tried to do something similar as open-source: > >> http://code.google.com/p/perfbench/ > >> > >> Maybe you can contribute some analysis or even an implementation or two > ;) > >> I would be interested in your feedback, for e.g. which framework to > attempt > >> next - do let me know offline. > >> > >> > >> > >> > But the problem is those who will take the final decision will take > >> > into account more "political" reasons that things like "development > >> speed", > >> > "code quality", "code re-usability" and any other adds you throw at > >> them... > >> > > >> > > >> > @Martin, > >> > > >> > Congratulations! Hope I can say the same in a few months. > >> > > >> > Best, > >> > > >> > Ernesto > >> > > >> > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Peter Thomas > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:22 PM, Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro < > >> > > reier...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > Hi Eelco, > >> > > > > >> > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Eelco Hillenius < > >> > > > eelco.hillen...@gmail.com > >> > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > > > I love Wicket and the natural approach it offers to do > >> > > > web-development...
Re: Tag Oriented Development
Agreed 2009/12/25 > JSF == Standard? > > My question is: What should become a standard? > > When I think about standards, then things that come to mind are: > > - SQL > - ODBC > - Java > - JDBC > - EJB > - JPA > > but not JSF. And not Spring. And not ... - you name it. > > For some reason, possibly due to the fast evolving nature of the web, > web frameworks are higher up in the food chain, and I don't think that > we are ready yet to standardize on that level. People may say JSF is a > standard, so what? The fact that there are so many others seems to > prove my point. > > Bernard > > > > On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:59:16 +0200, you wrote: > > >In business, decision makers choose standards and JSF is standard so JSF > is > >good and JSF is the King. But couldn't be "The King Is Naked" ?? > > > >OR > > > >Am i wrong ? JSF is really cool and i don't know the hidden features ?? > > > >I don't want to start framework wars, this is useless but I think Wicket > >should be a JSR. > > > >I don't know how a framework like Wicket become a JSR - a standard - but > it > >should be... > > > > > >2009/12/22 Peter Thomas > > > >> On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro < > >> reier...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> > @Tomas, @Martin, > >> > > >> > I already knew those links... Thanks anyway. Actually I went a bit > >> further > >> > an implemented the same "application" on different technologies so > that > >> > developers could evaluate for themselves the wonders of "downsides" of > >> each > >> > technology... plus detailed explanations of how the code works > >> > Unfortunately I cannot share that code as is property of the company I > >> work > >> > for > >> > >> > >> That's a pretty solid approach, pity you can't share the code though. I > >> tried to do something similar as open-source: > >> http://code.google.com/p/perfbench/ > >> > >> Maybe you can contribute some analysis or even an implementation or two > ;) > >> I would be interested in your feedback, for e.g. which framework to > attempt > >> next - do let me know offline. > >> > >> > >> > >> > But the problem is those who will take the final decision will take > >> > into account more "political" reasons that things like "development > >> speed", > >> > "code quality", "code re-usability" and any other adds you throw at > >> them... > >> > > >> > > >> > @Martin, > >> > > >> > Congratulations! Hope I can say the same in a few months. > >> > > >> > Best, > >> > > >> > Ernesto > >> > > >> > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Peter Thomas > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:22 PM, Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro < > >> > > reier...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > Hi Eelco, > >> > > > > >> > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Eelco Hillenius < > >> > > > eelco.hillen...@gmail.com > >> > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > > > I love Wicket and the natural approach it offers to do > >> > > > web-development... > >> > > > > > and I have been pushing hard to use it whenever possible... > but > >> on > >> > > the > >> > > > > > "real world" it is not enough to be an excellent product to > gain > >> > > > > > wide acceptance... Does last sentence ring a bell? > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I think we've gained pretty wide acceptance actually. Wicket In > >> > Action > >> > > > > has been a best seller for Manning in the months right after it > >> came > >> > > > > out, and Wicket is by many considered as one of the leading web > >> > > > > frameworks for Java. We've also had one of the most active email > >> > lists > >> > > > > for years now. I'm sure Wicket lags behind JSF and Struts > >> > considerably > >> > > > > when it comes to number of users, but hey, why would we care. > You > >> > only > >> > > > > need a bunch of serious users to maintain a framework, and > Wicket > >> has > >> > > > > many thousands of them :-) > >> > > > > > >> > > > > You don't have to convince me about Wicket excellence! I love > >> Wicket, > >> > > > I've > >> > > > been using it for over two years now, and right now I'm doing all > my > >> > > > efforts > >> > > > to get it adopted at the company I'm working for... But being > >> realistic > >> > > > they > >> > > > will probably jump to Struts 2, or Seam-JSF... > >> > > > > >> > > > After re-reading my message I see maybe it was bit > "pessimistic".. > >> > maybe > >> > > > out of my present frustration. > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > may be useful when debating Wicket vs JSF where you work etc: > >> > > http://tinyurl.com/jsf-sucks > >> > > > >> > > - Peter > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Cheers, > >> > > > > >> > > > Ernesto > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org > > -- Altuğ.
Re: Tag Oriented Development
JSF == Standard? My question is: What should become a standard? When I think about standards, then things that come to mind are: - SQL - ODBC - Java - JDBC - EJB - JPA but not JSF. And not Spring. And not ... - you name it. For some reason, possibly due to the fast evolving nature of the web, web frameworks are higher up in the food chain, and I don't think that we are ready yet to standardize on that level. People may say JSF is a standard, so what? The fact that there are so many others seems to prove my point. Bernard On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:59:16 +0200, you wrote: >In business, decision makers choose standards and JSF is standard so JSF is >good and JSF is the King. But couldn't be "The King Is Naked" ?? > >OR > >Am i wrong ? JSF is really cool and i don't know the hidden features ?? > >I don't want to start framework wars, this is useless but I think Wicket >should be a JSR. > >I don't know how a framework like Wicket become a JSR - a standard - but it >should be... > > >2009/12/22 Peter Thomas > >> On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro < >> reier...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > @Tomas, @Martin, >> > >> > I already knew those links... Thanks anyway. Actually I went a bit >> further >> > an implemented the same "application" on different technologies so that >> > developers could evaluate for themselves the wonders of "downsides" of >> each >> > technology... plus detailed explanations of how the code works >> > Unfortunately I cannot share that code as is property of the company I >> work >> > for >> >> >> That's a pretty solid approach, pity you can't share the code though. I >> tried to do something similar as open-source: >> http://code.google.com/p/perfbench/ >> >> Maybe you can contribute some analysis or even an implementation or two ;) >> I would be interested in your feedback, for e.g. which framework to attempt >> next - do let me know offline. >> >> >> >> > But the problem is those who will take the final decision will take >> > into account more "political" reasons that things like "development >> speed", >> > "code quality", "code re-usability" and any other adds you throw at >> them... >> > >> > >> > @Martin, >> > >> > Congratulations! Hope I can say the same in a few months. >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Ernesto >> > >> > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Peter Thomas >> > wrote: >> > >> > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:22 PM, Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro < >> > > reier...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > >> > > > Hi Eelco, >> > > > >> > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Eelco Hillenius < >> > > > eelco.hillen...@gmail.com >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > > I love Wicket and the natural approach it offers to do >> > > > web-development... >> > > > > > and I have been pushing hard to use it whenever possible... but >> on >> > > the >> > > > > > "real world" it is not enough to be an excellent product to gain >> > > > > > wide acceptance... Does last sentence ring a bell? >> > > > > >> > > > > I think we've gained pretty wide acceptance actually. Wicket In >> > Action >> > > > > has been a best seller for Manning in the months right after it >> came >> > > > > out, and Wicket is by many considered as one of the leading web >> > > > > frameworks for Java. We've also had one of the most active email >> > lists >> > > > > for years now. I'm sure Wicket lags behind JSF and Struts >> > considerably >> > > > > when it comes to number of users, but hey, why would we care. You >> > only >> > > > > need a bunch of serious users to maintain a framework, and Wicket >> has >> > > > > many thousands of them :-) >> > > > > >> > > > > You don't have to convince me about Wicket excellence! I love >> Wicket, >> > > > I've >> > > > been using it for over two years now, and right now I'm doing all my >> > > > efforts >> > > > to get it adopted at the company I'm working for... But being >> realistic >> > > > they >> > > > will probably jump to Struts 2, or Seam-JSF... >> > > > >> > > > After re-reading my message I see maybe it was bit "pessimistic".. >> > maybe >> > > > out of my present frustration. >> > > > >> > > >> > > may be useful when debating Wicket vs JSF where you work etc: >> > > http://tinyurl.com/jsf-sucks >> > > >> > > - Peter >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > Cheers, >> > > > >> > > > Ernesto >> > > > >> > > >> > >> - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Tag Oriented Development
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Altuğ B. Altıntaş wrote: > In business, decision makers choose standards Maybe obig conservative corporations. On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of companies that were able to have an edge over competition by choosing languages and frameworks that deliver. From massive, like Google, Yahoo and Amazon to medium players like Redfin and Teachscape to the gazillion smaller companies who rather put their effort in stuff that will get them to the next round. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Tag Oriented Development
JSF is just open source. Wicket is open source too. > Second link was of a joke , wasn't it? IBM is giving courses in Wicket, so it must be true: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/edu/os-dw-os-ag-wicket.html I just whish IBM had a bigger brand name.. only three letters. ** Martin 2009/12/22 Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro : > > > Best, > > Ernesto > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Martin Makundi < > martin.maku...@koodaripalvelut.com> wrote: > >> > But the problem is those who will take the final decision will take >> > into account more "political" reasons ... >> >> Political?! You mean boneless ok, nobody ever got fired for >> choosing IBM. But IBM is on board too: >> >> - http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/web/library/wa-aj-wicket/index.html >> - >> http://old.nabble.com/IBM-to-adopt-Wicket-as-standard-web-framework-to9674233.html >> >> ** >> Martin >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org >> >> > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Tag Oriented Development
Named boneless if you want;-) The fact is that things like "support" and "big names" Second link was of a joke , wasn't it? Best, Ernesto On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Martin Makundi < martin.maku...@koodaripalvelut.com> wrote: > > But the problem is those who will take the final decision will take > > into account more "political" reasons ... > > Political?! You mean boneless ok, nobody ever got fired for > choosing IBM. But IBM is on board too: > > - http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/web/library/wa-aj-wicket/index.html > - > http://old.nabble.com/IBM-to-adopt-Wicket-as-standard-web-framework-to9674233.html > > ** > Martin > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org > >
Re: Tag Oriented Development
The best april fools jokes are those that still fool fools, even 4 years after... Martijn On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Martin Makundi wrote: >> But the problem is those who will take the final decision will take >> into account more "political" reasons ... > > Political?! You mean boneless ok, nobody ever got fired for > choosing IBM. But IBM is on board too: > > - http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/web/library/wa-aj-wicket/index.html > - > http://old.nabble.com/IBM-to-adopt-Wicket-as-standard-web-framework-to9674233.html > > ** > Martin > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org > > -- Become a Wicket expert, learn from the best: http://wicketinaction.com Apache Wicket 1.4 increases type safety for web applications Get it now: http://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/wicket/1.4.4 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Tag Oriented Development
In business, decision makers choose standards and JSF is standard so JSF is good and JSF is the King. But couldn't be "The King Is Naked" ?? OR Am i wrong ? JSF is really cool and i don't know the hidden features ?? I don't want to start framework wars, this is useless but I think Wicket should be a JSR. I don't know how a framework like Wicket become a JSR - a standard - but it should be... 2009/12/22 Peter Thomas > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro < > reier...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > @Tomas, @Martin, > > > > I already knew those links... Thanks anyway. Actually I went a bit > further > > an implemented the same "application" on different technologies so that > > developers could evaluate for themselves the wonders of "downsides" of > each > > technology... plus detailed explanations of how the code works > > Unfortunately I cannot share that code as is property of the company I > work > > for > > > That's a pretty solid approach, pity you can't share the code though. I > tried to do something similar as open-source: > http://code.google.com/p/perfbench/ > > Maybe you can contribute some analysis or even an implementation or two ;) > I would be interested in your feedback, for e.g. which framework to attempt > next - do let me know offline. > > > > > But the problem is those who will take the final decision will take > > into account more "political" reasons that things like "development > speed", > > "code quality", "code re-usability" and any other adds you throw at > them... > > > > > > @Martin, > > > > Congratulations! Hope I can say the same in a few months. > > > > Best, > > > > Ernesto > > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Peter Thomas > > wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:22 PM, Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro < > > > reier...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Eelco, > > > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Eelco Hillenius < > > > > eelco.hillen...@gmail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I love Wicket and the natural approach it offers to do > > > > web-development... > > > > > > and I have been pushing hard to use it whenever possible... but > on > > > the > > > > > > "real world" it is not enough to be an excellent product to gain > > > > > > wide acceptance... Does last sentence ring a bell? > > > > > > > > > > I think we've gained pretty wide acceptance actually. Wicket In > > Action > > > > > has been a best seller for Manning in the months right after it > came > > > > > out, and Wicket is by many considered as one of the leading web > > > > > frameworks for Java. We've also had one of the most active email > > lists > > > > > for years now. I'm sure Wicket lags behind JSF and Struts > > considerably > > > > > when it comes to number of users, but hey, why would we care. You > > only > > > > > need a bunch of serious users to maintain a framework, and Wicket > has > > > > > many thousands of them :-) > > > > > > > > > > You don't have to convince me about Wicket excellence! I love > Wicket, > > > > I've > > > > been using it for over two years now, and right now I'm doing all my > > > > efforts > > > > to get it adopted at the company I'm working for... But being > realistic > > > > they > > > > will probably jump to Struts 2, or Seam-JSF... > > > > > > > > After re-reading my message I see maybe it was bit "pessimistic".. > > maybe > > > > out of my present frustration. > > > > > > > > > > may be useful when debating Wicket vs JSF where you work etc: > > > http://tinyurl.com/jsf-sucks > > > > > > - Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Ernesto > > > > > > > > > > -- Altuğ.
Re: Tag Oriented Development
> But the problem is those who will take the final decision will take > into account more "political" reasons ... Political?! You mean boneless ok, nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM. But IBM is on board too: - http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/web/library/wa-aj-wicket/index.html - http://old.nabble.com/IBM-to-adopt-Wicket-as-standard-web-framework-to9674233.html ** Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Tag Oriented Development
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro < reier...@gmail.com> wrote: > @Tomas, @Martin, > > I already knew those links... Thanks anyway. Actually I went a bit further > an implemented the same "application" on different technologies so that > developers could evaluate for themselves the wonders of "downsides" of each > technology... plus detailed explanations of how the code works > Unfortunately I cannot share that code as is property of the company I work > for That's a pretty solid approach, pity you can't share the code though. I tried to do something similar as open-source: http://code.google.com/p/perfbench/ Maybe you can contribute some analysis or even an implementation or two ;) I would be interested in your feedback, for e.g. which framework to attempt next - do let me know offline. > But the problem is those who will take the final decision will take > into account more "political" reasons that things like "development speed", > "code quality", "code re-usability" and any other adds you throw at them... > > > @Martin, > > Congratulations! Hope I can say the same in a few months. > > Best, > > Ernesto > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Peter Thomas > wrote: > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:22 PM, Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro < > > reier...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Hi Eelco, > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Eelco Hillenius < > > > eelco.hillen...@gmail.com > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I love Wicket and the natural approach it offers to do > > > web-development... > > > > > and I have been pushing hard to use it whenever possible... but on > > the > > > > > "real world" it is not enough to be an excellent product to gain > > > > > wide acceptance... Does last sentence ring a bell? > > > > > > > > I think we've gained pretty wide acceptance actually. Wicket In > Action > > > > has been a best seller for Manning in the months right after it came > > > > out, and Wicket is by many considered as one of the leading web > > > > frameworks for Java. We've also had one of the most active email > lists > > > > for years now. I'm sure Wicket lags behind JSF and Struts > considerably > > > > when it comes to number of users, but hey, why would we care. You > only > > > > need a bunch of serious users to maintain a framework, and Wicket has > > > > many thousands of them :-) > > > > > > > > You don't have to convince me about Wicket excellence! I love Wicket, > > > I've > > > been using it for over two years now, and right now I'm doing all my > > > efforts > > > to get it adopted at the company I'm working for... But being realistic > > > they > > > will probably jump to Struts 2, or Seam-JSF... > > > > > > After re-reading my message I see maybe it was bit "pessimistic".. > maybe > > > out of my present frustration. > > > > > > > may be useful when debating Wicket vs JSF where you work etc: > > http://tinyurl.com/jsf-sucks > > > > - Peter > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Ernesto > > > > > >
Re: Tag Oriented Development
@Tomas, @Martin, I already knew those links... Thanks anyway. Actually I went a bit further an implemented the same "application" on different technologies so that developers could evaluate for themselves the wonders of "downsides" of each technology... plus detailed explanations of how the code works Unfortunately I cannot share that code as is property of the company I work for But the problem is those who will take the final decision will take into account more "political" reasons that things like "development speed", "code quality", "code re-usability" and any other adds you throw at them... @Martin, Congratulations! Hope I can say the same in a few months. Best, Ernesto On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Peter Thomas wrote: > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:22 PM, Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro < > reier...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Eelco, > > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Eelco Hillenius < > > eelco.hillen...@gmail.com > > > wrote: > > > > > > I love Wicket and the natural approach it offers to do > > web-development... > > > > and I have been pushing hard to use it whenever possible... but on > the > > > > "real world" it is not enough to be an excellent product to gain > > > > wide acceptance... Does last sentence ring a bell? > > > > > > I think we've gained pretty wide acceptance actually. Wicket In Action > > > has been a best seller for Manning in the months right after it came > > > out, and Wicket is by many considered as one of the leading web > > > frameworks for Java. We've also had one of the most active email lists > > > for years now. I'm sure Wicket lags behind JSF and Struts considerably > > > when it comes to number of users, but hey, why would we care. You only > > > need a bunch of serious users to maintain a framework, and Wicket has > > > many thousands of them :-) > > > > > > You don't have to convince me about Wicket excellence! I love Wicket, > > I've > > been using it for over two years now, and right now I'm doing all my > > efforts > > to get it adopted at the company I'm working for... But being realistic > > they > > will probably jump to Struts 2, or Seam-JSF... > > > > After re-reading my message I see maybe it was bit "pessimistic".. maybe > > out of my present frustration. > > > > may be useful when debating Wicket vs JSF where you work etc: > http://tinyurl.com/jsf-sucks > > - Peter > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Ernesto > > >
Re: Tag Oriented Development
"Once it reaches that point there is no turning back because to change would be to admit they weren't perfect at some point in the past" I wouldn't say that. If you have a look to the EJB1 en EJB2 api/spec, they differ 90% from EJB3. At least with EJB they really saw that the initial design was not sufficient... Hopefully the guys of JSF have the guts to do the same... On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Chris Colman wrote: > > > > I know JSF is standard; what is your idea about current JSF > status? > > > > > > Just forget about it ... ;) > > Agreed! > > > JSF is way too complex for doing simple things. They -again- forgot > the > > KISS principle (Keep it Simple & Straightforward/Stupid). > > > > Wicket (but also Tapestry) is in my opinion a giant leap forward. I > > wondaer when the JSF spec will start look like this way of working... > > Probably never because often what starts out as an unjustifiable and > unattractive design that is adopted by people simply because it doesn't > stray too far from the legacy "framework" (JSP) soon becomes "justified" > on the basis of some irrational, semi religious beliefs. Once it reaches > that point there is no turning back because to change would be to admit > they weren't perfect at some point in the past. > > The good thing is that rational people are free to choose the best > solution regardless of what 'the standard' might be. > > It's a good thing that many programmers are usually freedom fighting > mavericks or we'd all be writing desktop apps in Visual Basic (not that > I ever used VB - I was more a C/C++ kind of guy =] ) > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org > > -- Pieter Degraeuwe Systemworks bvba Belgiëlaan 61 9070 Destelbergen GSM: +32 (0)485/68.60.85 Email: pieter.degrae...@systemworks.be visit us at http://www.systemworks.be
Re: Tag Oriented Development
I just love advocating wicket into large corporations... :) "What are you going to do about the open bugs?" "And they say that wicket's generics implementation is highly experimental, that doesn't sound very trustworthy, does it?" But eventually we succeed. Articles like the following are very useful when negotiating: * http://www.indicthreads.com/news/435/wicket_java_framework_saves_programming_time.html * http://ptrthomas.wordpress.com/2009/01/14/seam-jsf-vs-wicket-performance-comparison/ * http://ptrthomas.wordpress.com/2007/05/14/a-wicket-user-tries-jsf/ ** Martin 2009/12/22 Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro : > Hi Eelco, > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Eelco Hillenius > wrote: > >> > I love Wicket and the natural approach it offers to do web-development... >> > and I have been pushing hard to use it whenever possible... but on the >> > "real world" it is not enough to be an excellent product to gain >> > wide acceptance... Does last sentence ring a bell? >> >> I think we've gained pretty wide acceptance actually. Wicket In Action >> has been a best seller for Manning in the months right after it came >> out, and Wicket is by many considered as one of the leading web >> frameworks for Java. We've also had one of the most active email lists >> for years now. I'm sure Wicket lags behind JSF and Struts considerably >> when it comes to number of users, but hey, why would we care. You only >> need a bunch of serious users to maintain a framework, and Wicket has >> many thousands of them :-) >> >> You don't have to convince me about Wicket excellence! I love Wicket, I've > been using it for over two years now, and right now I'm doing all my efforts > to get it adopted at the company I'm working for... But being realistic they > will probably jump to Struts 2, or Seam-JSF... > > After re-reading my message I see maybe it was bit "pessimistic".. maybe > out of my present frustration. > > Cheers, > > Ernesto > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Tag Oriented Development
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:22 PM, Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro < reier...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Eelco, > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Eelco Hillenius < > eelco.hillen...@gmail.com > > wrote: > > > > I love Wicket and the natural approach it offers to do > web-development... > > > and I have been pushing hard to use it whenever possible... but on the > > > "real world" it is not enough to be an excellent product to gain > > > wide acceptance... Does last sentence ring a bell? > > > > I think we've gained pretty wide acceptance actually. Wicket In Action > > has been a best seller for Manning in the months right after it came > > out, and Wicket is by many considered as one of the leading web > > frameworks for Java. We've also had one of the most active email lists > > for years now. I'm sure Wicket lags behind JSF and Struts considerably > > when it comes to number of users, but hey, why would we care. You only > > need a bunch of serious users to maintain a framework, and Wicket has > > many thousands of them :-) > > > > You don't have to convince me about Wicket excellence! I love Wicket, > I've > been using it for over two years now, and right now I'm doing all my > efforts > to get it adopted at the company I'm working for... But being realistic > they > will probably jump to Struts 2, or Seam-JSF... > > After re-reading my message I see maybe it was bit "pessimistic".. maybe > out of my present frustration. > may be useful when debating Wicket vs JSF where you work etc: http://tinyurl.com/jsf-sucks - Peter > > Cheers, > > Ernesto >
Re: Tag Oriented Development
I agree with you. I think becoming a JSR also adds lots of friction to development. 2009/12/22 nino martinez wael > Could'nt one petition a JSR for wicket? :) > > -regards Nino > > 2009/12/22 Chris Colman : > >> > > I know JSF is standard; what is your idea about current JSF > > status? > >> > > >> > Just forget about it ... ;) > > > > Agreed! > > > >> JSF is way too complex for doing simple things. They -again- forgot > > the > >> KISS principle (Keep it Simple & Straightforward/Stupid). > >> > >> Wicket (but also Tapestry) is in my opinion a giant leap forward. I > >> wondaer when the JSF spec will start look like this way of working... > > > > Probably never because often what starts out as an unjustifiable and > > unattractive design that is adopted by people simply because it doesn't > > stray too far from the legacy "framework" (JSP) soon becomes "justified" > > on the basis of some irrational, semi religious beliefs. Once it reaches > > that point there is no turning back because to change would be to admit > > they weren't perfect at some point in the past. > > > > The good thing is that rational people are free to choose the best > > solution regardless of what 'the standard' might be. > > > > It's a good thing that many programmers are usually freedom fighting > > mavericks or we'd all be writing desktop apps in Visual Basic (not that > > I ever used VB - I was more a C/C++ kind of guy =] ) > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org > > -- Altuğ.
Re: Tag Oriented Development
Hi Eelco, On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Eelco Hillenius wrote: > > I love Wicket and the natural approach it offers to do web-development... > > and I have been pushing hard to use it whenever possible... but on the > > "real world" it is not enough to be an excellent product to gain > > wide acceptance... Does last sentence ring a bell? > > I think we've gained pretty wide acceptance actually. Wicket In Action > has been a best seller for Manning in the months right after it came > out, and Wicket is by many considered as one of the leading web > frameworks for Java. We've also had one of the most active email lists > for years now. I'm sure Wicket lags behind JSF and Struts considerably > when it comes to number of users, but hey, why would we care. You only > need a bunch of serious users to maintain a framework, and Wicket has > many thousands of them :-) > > You don't have to convince me about Wicket excellence! I love Wicket, I've been using it for over two years now, and right now I'm doing all my efforts to get it adopted at the company I'm working for... But being realistic they will probably jump to Struts 2, or Seam-JSF... After re-reading my message I see maybe it was bit "pessimistic".. maybe out of my present frustration. Cheers, Ernesto
Re: Tag Oriented Development
> I love Wicket and the natural approach it offers to do web-development... > and I have been pushing hard to use it whenever possible... but on the > "real world" it is not enough to be an excellent product to gain > wide acceptance... Does last sentence ring a bell? I think we've gained pretty wide acceptance actually. Wicket In Action has been a best seller for Manning in the months right after it came out, and Wicket is by many considered as one of the leading web frameworks for Java. We've also had one of the most active email lists for years now. I'm sure Wicket lags behind JSF and Struts considerably when it comes to number of users, but hey, why would we care. You only need a bunch of serious users to maintain a framework, and Wicket has many thousands of them :-) Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Tag Oriented Development
IMHO the keys fo JSF "success" are: -They sell it as a standard with companies backing it up. It doesn't matter if it is an over complicated model and that you need things like JBoss Seam to fix it. On many companies decisions are taken by pointy haired bosses... and they like to hear to the words "standard" and "official support". So, if things go wild they have "support"... and some one else to blame. -It is more easy to find developers knowing (willing to learn) JSF... At least on Spain it is rather difficult to find Job opportunities as a Wicket developer or as a Tapestry or as that-ever-else != (struts or JSF)-developer. I love Wicket and the natural approach it offers to do web-development... and I have been pushing hard to use it whenever possible... but on the "real world" it is not enough to be an excellent product to gain wide acceptance... Does last sentence ring a bell? Best, Ernesto On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Chris Colman wrote: > > > > I know JSF is standard; what is your idea about current JSF > status? > > > > > > Just forget about it ... ;) > > Agreed! > > > JSF is way too complex for doing simple things. They -again- forgot > the > > KISS principle (Keep it Simple & Straightforward/Stupid). > > > > Wicket (but also Tapestry) is in my opinion a giant leap forward. I > > wondaer when the JSF spec will start look like this way of working... > > Probably never because often what starts out as an unjustifiable and > unattractive design that is adopted by people simply because it doesn't > stray too far from the legacy "framework" (JSP) soon becomes "justified" > on the basis of some irrational, semi religious beliefs. Once it reaches > that point there is no turning back because to change would be to admit > they weren't perfect at some point in the past. > > The good thing is that rational people are free to choose the best > solution regardless of what 'the standard' might be. > > It's a good thing that many programmers are usually freedom fighting > mavericks or we'd all be writing desktop apps in Visual Basic (not that > I ever used VB - I was more a C/C++ kind of guy =] ) > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org > >
Re: Tag Oriented Development
Could'nt one petition a JSR for wicket? :) -regards Nino 2009/12/22 Chris Colman : >> > > I know JSF is standard; what is your idea about current JSF > status? >> > >> > Just forget about it ... ;) > > Agreed! > >> JSF is way too complex for doing simple things. They -again- forgot > the >> KISS principle (Keep it Simple & Straightforward/Stupid). >> >> Wicket (but also Tapestry) is in my opinion a giant leap forward. I >> wondaer when the JSF spec will start look like this way of working... > > Probably never because often what starts out as an unjustifiable and > unattractive design that is adopted by people simply because it doesn't > stray too far from the legacy "framework" (JSP) soon becomes "justified" > on the basis of some irrational, semi religious beliefs. Once it reaches > that point there is no turning back because to change would be to admit > they weren't perfect at some point in the past. > > The good thing is that rational people are free to choose the best > solution regardless of what 'the standard' might be. > > It's a good thing that many programmers are usually freedom fighting > mavericks or we'd all be writing desktop apps in Visual Basic (not that > I ever used VB - I was more a C/C++ kind of guy =] ) > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
RE: Tag Oriented Development
> > > I know JSF is standard; what is your idea about current JSF status? > > > > Just forget about it ... ;) Agreed! > JSF is way too complex for doing simple things. They -again- forgot the > KISS principle (Keep it Simple & Straightforward/Stupid). > > Wicket (but also Tapestry) is in my opinion a giant leap forward. I > wondaer when the JSF spec will start look like this way of working... Probably never because often what starts out as an unjustifiable and unattractive design that is adopted by people simply because it doesn't stray too far from the legacy "framework" (JSP) soon becomes "justified" on the basis of some irrational, semi religious beliefs. Once it reaches that point there is no turning back because to change would be to admit they weren't perfect at some point in the past. The good thing is that rational people are free to choose the best solution regardless of what 'the standard' might be. It's a good thing that many programmers are usually freedom fighting mavericks or we'd all be writing desktop apps in Visual Basic (not that I ever used VB - I was more a C/C++ kind of guy =] ) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Tag Oriented Development
In my opinion, this is exactly the mistake of JSF. (and struts/jsp, etc). They keep putting logic (in the form of tags) in the markup. How long will it take until people understand that markup/xml is NOT a programming language? You have to seperate logic and markup. You cannot mix them. Also JSF is not enough OO. OO should encourage componenr reuse. JSF component structure is too complex to make reusable components. (It is possible however, but it must be easy. MUCH easier that it is now today. The same mistake was made with the EJB spec 1 and 2. Version 3 did fix this (more or less). JSF is way too complex for doing simple things. They -again- forgot the KISS principle (Keep it Simple & Straightforward/Stupid). Wicket (but also Tapestry) is in my opinion a giant leap forward. I wondaer when the JSF spec will start look like this way of working... My 2 cents... Pieter On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Martin Makundi < martin.maku...@koodaripalvelut.com> wrote: > > I know JSF is standard; what is your idea about current JSF status? > > Just forget about it ... ;) > > ** > Martin > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org > > -- Pieter Degraeuwe Systemworks bvba Belgiëlaan 61 9070 Destelbergen GSM: +32 (0)485/68.60.85 Email: pieter.degrae...@systemworks.be visit us at http://www.systemworks.be
Re: Tag Oriented Development
> I know JSF is standard; what is your idea about current JSF status? Just forget about it ... ;) ** Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
