[VIHUELA] Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Lex. Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just not sure terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the time to draw unequivocal conclusions and the question as to whether Agazzari had Millioni's four-course guitar, 'chitarrino' in mind or the instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open. But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi purposefully omit the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments as suitable for basso continuo, or is it included in the etcetera...? I suggested that since he does not list the instrument amongst those suitable for embellishment then he did think it suitable for continuo (if rarer than the instruments he did singled out). However, I'm certainly not advocating even more banging and thrashing about as fashionable amongst some modern continuo groupings.. regards Martyn --- On Sun, 11/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 11 December, 2011, 16:54 In the anonymous collection Conserto vago (published in Rome in 1645) there is a part for a chitarrino a quatro corde alla napolitana, here probably used for lute type, in plucked textures. Its tuning, with a fifth between the third and fourth courses, is essentially different from that of the chitarra spagnuola. On the other hand, in Pietro Millioni's Corona del primo, secondo e terzo libro d'intavolatura di chitarra spagnola (1631) a four-course guitar is mentioned, the chitarrino, overo chitarra italiana, tuned like the first four courses of the common chitarra spagnuola. To be able to play the chords of alfabeto (from the tablature examples at the alfabeto chart) on this four-course instrument, one has to leave out the figures of the fifth course. By its tuning, the chitarrino napolitana from Conserto vago does not link up with the alfabeto tradition, as does Millioni's chitarrino Italiana. If Agazzari had a chitarrino napolitana in mindaEURhand plucked or played with a plectrum, then there is more reason to suppose that melodic improvisations were played on it, as they were on the violin and pandora, which are mentioned in the same breath. best wishes, Lex - Original Message - From: wikla [1]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: Martyn Hodgson [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt [4]eisenha...@planet.nl Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] Well, Oliver Strunk writes chitarrino. As far as I know, chitarrino, 4 course renaissance guitar, was not at all unknown in Italy in times of Agazzari... But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) best regards, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Lex Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the guitar was not unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm not convinced we can interpret his description as excluding BC using full chords only - eg strummed). Indeed, there are even some, allbeit later, sources (Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on playing guitar BC employing only the plucking (lute) style. Corbetta in his intabulated vocal/instrumental settings is also fairly restrained: using plucking play with the occasional strummed chord. Martyn --- On Mon, 12/12/11, eisen...@planet.nl eisen...@planet.nl wrote: From: eisen...@planet.nl eisen...@planet.nl Subject: RE: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 9:55 Hi, I'm not so sure about the 'etc.' It seems that Agazzari was thinking in terms of counterpoint, the way the guitar was used (strumming) does not fit in easily. In the end, there were more composers who were criticizing the use of the guitar (Castaldi), at that time. I suppose that the plucked chitarrina could be one of the melodic instruments on his list. Lex __ Van: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk] Verzonden: ma 12-12-2011 10:24 Aan: Vihuelalist; eisen...@planet.nl Onderwerp: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} Thanks Lex. Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just not sure terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the time to draw unequivocal conclusions and the question as to whether Agazzari had Millioni's four-course guitar, 'chitarrino' in mind or the instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open. But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi purposefully omit the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments as suitable for basso continuo, or is it included in the etcetera...? I suggested that since he does not list the instrument amongst those suitable for embellishment then he did think it suitable for continuo (if rarer than the instruments he did singled out). However, I'm certainly not advocating even more banging and thrashing about as fashionable amongst some modern continuo groupings.. regards Martyn -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:28:52 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote Thanks Lex Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the guitar was not unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm not convinced we can interpret his description as excluding BC using full chords only - eg strummed). Indeed, there are even some, allbeit later, sources (Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on playing guitar BC employing only the plucking (lute) style. Evidence? ;-) You aren't seriously taking those as reliable sources for Agazzari-time performance practise, aren't you? That's like using the film aof the Woodstock festival as a source for Johann Strauss (the IInd) walzer performance ... Just to be clear: I don't argue for banning guitars from early baroque continuo section, I jsut think we should be a little bit more careful in what sources we draw our information from. Cheers, Ralf Mattes Corbetta in his intabulated vocal/instrumental settings is also fairly restrained: using plucking play with the occasional strummed chord. Martyn --- On Mon, 12/12/11, eisen...@planet.nl eisen...@planet.nl wrote: From: eisen...@planet.nl eisen...@planet.nl Subject: RE: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 9:55 Hi, I'm not so sure about the 'etc.' It seems that Agazzari was thinking in terms of counterpoint, the way the guitar was used (strumming) does not fit in easily. In the end, there were more composers who were criticizing the use of the guitar (Castaldi), at that time. I suppose that the plucked chitarrina could be one of the melodic instruments on his list. Lex __ Van: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk] Verzonden: ma 12-12-2011 10:24 Aan: Vihuelalist; eisen...@planet.nl Onderwerp: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} Thanks Lex. Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just not sure terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the time to draw unequivocal conclusions and the question as to whether Agazzari had Millioni's four-course guitar, 'chitarrino' in mind or the instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open. But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi purposefully omit the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments as suitable for basso continuo, or is it included in the etcetera...? I suggested that since he does not list the instrument amongst those suitable for embellishment then he did think it suitable for continuo (if rarer than the instruments he did singled out). However, I'm certainly not advocating even more banging and thrashing about as fashionable amongst some modern continuo groupings.. regards Martyn -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thank you for this - you must have missed my qualifying rider: 'albeit later sources' expressing that I am well aware these sources are not contemporary with Agazzari. And of course you're quite right they do not constitute evidence of what Agazzari was aware. The point is that plucking and strumming play was known throughout the early (Foscarini) and later 17th century so it is not possible on the available evidence to state that Aggazzari expected strumming alone - even if he allowed the guitar in basso continuo... MH --- On Mon, 12/12/11, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote: From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, eisen...@planet.nl Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 11:44 On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:28:52 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote Thanks Lex Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the guitar was not unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm not convinced we can interpret his description as excluding BC using full chords only - eg strummed). Indeed, there are even some, allbeit later, sources (Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on playing guitar BC employing only the plucking (lute) style. Evidence? ;-) You aren't seriously taking those as reliable sources for Agazzari-time performance practise, aren't you? That's like using the film aof the Woodstock festival as a source for Johann Strauss (the IInd) walzer performance ... Just to be clear: I don't argue for banning guitars from early baroque continuo section, I jsut think we should be a little bit more careful in what sources we draw our information from. Cheers, Ralf Mattes Corbetta in his intabulated vocal/instrumental settings is also fairly restrained: using plucking play with the occasional strummed chord. Martyn --- On Mon, 12/12/11, [1]eisen...@planet.nl [2]eisen...@planet.nl wrote: From: [3]eisen...@planet.nl [4]eisen...@planet.nl Subject: RE: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} To: Martyn Hodgson [5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 9:55 Hi, I'm not so sure about the 'etc.' It seems that Agazzari was thinking in terms of counterpoint, the way the guitar was used (strumming) does not fit in easily. In the end, there were more composers who were criticizing the use of the guitar (Castaldi), at that time. I suppose that the plucked chitarrina could be one of the melodic instruments on his list. Lex __ Van: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk] Verzonden: ma 12-12-2011 10:24 Aan: Vihuelalist; [8]eisen...@planet.nl Onderwerp: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} Thanks Lex. Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just not sure terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the time to draw unequivocal conclusions and the question as to whether Agazzari had Millioni's four-course guitar, 'chitarrino' in mind or the instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open. But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi purposefully omit the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments as suitable for basso continuo, or is it included in the etcetera...? I suggested that since he does not list the instrument amongst those suitable for embellishment then he did think it suitable for continuo (if rarer than the instruments he did singled out). However, I'm certainly not advocating even more banging and thrashing about as fashionable amongst some modern continuo groupings.. regards Martyn -- To get on or off this list see list information at [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg [10]r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de -- References 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7.
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I have. Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am aware. Only one year after Montesardo. Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed in about 1630 and the version of which includes the continuo instructions was printed in 1640. I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was familiar with the chitarra spagnuola and had it in mind when he wrote his book. And he includes the chitarrina amongst the instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass line. I can't see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all. It was surely a small lute? Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; eisen...@planet.nl; R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:02 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} Thank you for this - you must have missed my qualifying rider: 'albeit later sources' expressing that I am well aware these sources are not contemporary with Agazzari. And of course you're quite right they do not constitute evidence of what Agazzari was aware. The point is that plucking and strumming play was known throughout the early (Foscarini) and later 17th century so it is not possible on the available evidence to state that Aggazzari expected strumming alone - even if he allowed the guitar in basso continuo... MH --- On Mon, 12/12/11, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote: From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, eisen...@planet.nl Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 11:44 On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:28:52 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote Thanks Lex Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the guitar was not unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm not convinced we can interpret his description as excluding BC using full chords only - eg strummed). Indeed, there are even some, allbeit later, sources (Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on playing guitar BC employing only the plucking (lute) style. Evidence? ;-) You aren't seriously taking those as reliable sources for Agazzari-time performance practise, aren't you? That's like using the film aof the Woodstock festival as a source for Johann Strauss (the IInd) walzer performance ... Just to be clear: I don't argue for banning guitars from early baroque continuo section, I jsut think we should be a little bit more careful in what sources we draw our information from. Cheers, Ralf Mattes Corbetta in his intabulated vocal/instrumental settings is also fairly restrained: using plucking play with the occasional strummed chord. Martyn --- On Mon, 12/12/11, [1]eisen...@planet.nl [2]eisen...@planet.nl wrote: From: [3]eisen...@planet.nl [4]eisen...@planet.nl Subject: RE: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} To: Martyn Hodgson [5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 9:55 Hi, I'm not so sure about the 'etc.' It seems that Agazzari was thinking in terms of counterpoint, the way the guitar was used (strumming) does not fit in easily. In the end, there were more composers who were criticizing the use of the guitar (Castaldi), at that time. I suppose that the plucked chitarrina could be one of the melodic instruments on his list. Lex __ Van: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk] Verzonden: ma 12-12-2011 10:24 Aan: Vihuelalist; [8]eisen...@planet.nl Onderwerp: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} Thanks Lex. Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just not sure terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the time to draw unequivocal conclusions and the question as to whether Agazzari had Millioni's four-course guitar, 'chitarrino' in mind or the instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open. But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi purposefully omit the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments as suitable for basso continuo, or is it included in the etcetera...? I suggested that since he does not list the instrument amongst those suitable for embellishment then he did think it suitable for continuo (if rarer than the instruments he did singled out). However, I'm certainly not advocating even
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Monica, I'm not sure we are at cross purposes since we all seem to agree that nothing is certain about what precise instrument Agazzari had in mind and whether he might have come accross the chitarra spagnuola (and implied it in his 'etcetera'). Of course Foscarini's publications come a couple of decades after Agazzari's writings but we do know the chitarra spagnuola (or very similar term) seems to have been known even before then. Christofano Malvezzi, in his publication Intermedi et concerti (Venice, 1591) describes performers and instruments used in the Florentine intermedi of 1589. Cavalieri's acclaimed ''O che nouvo miracolo' (aka later as 'Aria del Gran Duca') has 'Vittoria Archilei, Luccia Caccini, e Margherita' and even lists the instruments they played: 'e sounavao Vittoria, e Lucia, una Chitarrina per uno, una alla Spagnola, e l'altra alla Napolettana, '. Does 'Chitarrina' here really mean a not-guitar shaped instrument? I suggest we need to be very careful about assuming a degree of standardisation of such terms at this time. And does 'Chitarrina' also necessarily imply a small instrument (either 'alla Spagnola' or 'alla Napolettana') or is it a reference to a guitar generally in this source? I've always taken the Intermedi record to mean a Chittara Spagnuola (5 course) and a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601 Neapolitan publication). Else why bother so much to differentiate between the two ('alla Spagnola' / ' alla Napolettana')? I recall the subject of guitars in the Florentine Intermedi has also been discussed elswhere (and perhaps even on this list) sometime ago - but I can't put my hand on the relevant paper at the moment - can you? Martyn --- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 12:49 We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I have. Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am aware. Only one year after Montesardo. Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed in about 1630 and the version of which includes the continuo instructions was printed in 1640. I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was familiar with the chitarra spagnuola and had it in mind when he wrote his book. And he includes the chitarrina amongst the instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass line. I can't see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all. It was surely a small lute? Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; [3]eisen...@planet.nl; R. Mattes [4]r...@mh-freiburg.de Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:02 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} Thank you for this - you must have missed my qualifying rider: 'albeit later sources' expressing that I am well aware these sources are not contemporary with Agazzari. And of course you're quite right they do not constitute evidence of what Agazzari was aware. The point is that plucking and strumming play was known throughout the early (Foscarini) and later 17th century so it is not possible on the available evidence to state that Aggazzari expected strumming alone - even if he allowed the guitar in basso continuo... MH --- On Mon, 12/12/11, R. Mattes [5]r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote: From: R. Mattes [6]r...@mh-freiburg.de Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} To: Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist [8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, [9]eisen...@planet.nl Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 11:44 On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:28:52 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote Thanks Lex Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the guitar was not unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm not convinced we can interpret his description as excluding BC using full chords only - eg strummed). Indeed, there are even some, allbeit later, sources (Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on playing guitar BC employing only the plucking (lute) style. Evidence? ;-) You aren't seriously taking those as reliable sources for Agazzari-time
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Indeed - this supplements what I wrote below - thank you. Presumably after 1589 the guitar (5 course alla spagnola) became better known in the North. MH From: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 14:27 Dear List I think the chitarra was unknown in Northern Italy, but not so much so in Naples. From Nina Treadwell's The chitarra spagnola and Italian monody, 1589 to c. 1650: On March 18, 1589 three guitars arrived in Florence from the Spanish-ruled city of Naples, ordered by Emililo de' Cavalieri, overseer of artistic activities at the court of Ferdinand I de' Medici. Cavalieri had a specific purpose for these instruments: to accompany the solo sections in the closing ballo of the sixth and last intermedio, composed as part of the wedding celebrations of Ferdinand and the granddaughter of Catharine de' Medici, Christine of Lorraine. The performance of a set of intermedi between the acts of a play was a characteristic part of such important celebrations. -Those of 1589 were originally performed in conjunction with Girolamo Bargagli^1s comedy La Pellegrina and were among the most magnificent of their kind. This reference to the guitar in the 1589 intermedi is the first extant record we have of the guitar's use in northern Italy. Cheers eloy Dear Monica, I'm not sure we are at cross purposes since we all seem to agree that nothing is certain about what precise instrument Agazzari had in mind and whether he might have come accross the chitarra spagnuola (and implied it in his 'etcetera'). Of course Foscarini's publications come a couple of decades after Agazzari's writings but we do know the chitarra spagnuola (or very similarterm) seems to have been known even before then. Christofano Malvezzi, in his publication Intermedi et concerti (Venice, 1591) describes performers and instruments used in the Florentine intermedi of 1589. Cavalieri's acclaimed ''O che nouvo miracolo' (aka later as 'Aria del Gran Duca') has 'Vittoria Archilei, Luccia Caccini, e Margherita' and even lists the instruments they played: 'e sounavao Vittoria, e Lucia, una Chitarrina per uno, una alla Spagnola, e l'altra alla Napolettana, '. Does 'Chitarrina' here really mean a not-guitar shaped instrument? I suggest we need to be very careful about assuming a degree of standardisation of such terms at this time. And does 'Chitarrina' also necessarily imply a small instrument (either 'alla Spagnola' or 'alla Napolettana') or is it a reference to a guitar generally in this source? I've always taken the Intermedi record to mean a Chittara Spagnuola (5 course) and a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601 Neapolitan publication). Else why bother so much to differentiate between the two ('alla Spagnola' / ' alla Napolettana')? I recall the subject of guitars in the Florentine Intermedi has also been discussed elswhere (and perhaps even on this list) sometime ago - but I can't put my hand on the relevant paper at the moment - can you? Martyn --- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lex Eisenhardt [5]eisenha...@planet.nl, R. Mattes [6]r...@mh-freiburg.de Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 12:49 We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I have. Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am aware. Only one year after Montesardo. Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed in about 1630 and the version of which includes the continuo instructions was printed in 1640. I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was familiar with the chitarra spagnuola and had it in mind when he wrote his book. And he includes the chitarrina amongst the instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass line. I can't see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all. It was surely a small lute? Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuelalist
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Having a quick look at Meucci's article again there are a few other things which I think need to be clarified. The first of these is that in Millioni's 1631 book the 4-course instrument is referred to as il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana which suggests that it was a small lute rather than a 4-course guitar. Meucci points out that the first edition of the contemporary Italian dictionary Vocabolario della Crusca printed in 1612 defines the Chitarra as a kind of lute, which lacks the bass and soprano. He gives a lot of other examples where it is clear that the Chitarra Italiana was a small lute. Giustiniani also distinguishes between the chitarra alla spagnola and the chitarra napolitana. Stuart mentioned Calvi's book. The pieces in tablature are preceded by the note Le seguenti Suonate servire anche per la chitarriglia, ma sono veramente per la Chitarra. Although Meucci doesn't mention this instance it seems to me that the Chitarra here is also a small lute. The music is quite different from other music for 5-course instrument. No strummed chords and no 6/4 chords either. You can't assume that the term chitarra refers to the 5-course guitar. As ever Monica Original Message - From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Martyn Hodgson [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:02 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601 Neapolitan publication). The instrument described by Cerreto is not a guitar - at least according to Meucci. Cerreto actually describes it as lo Strumento della Chitarra a sette Corde, detto Bordelletto alla Taliana. It is a 4-course instrument with a re-entrant tuning which as he says is imperfetto, por causa che in esso non vi sono tutte le voci graue como habbiamo nel Strumento del Liuto. He does however mention that the instrument can be strummed. Cerreto's book was published in Naples and the instrument he was describing was probably the same as the Chitarrina alla Napoletana called for in the Intermedia i.e. a small lute. The chitarrina alla spagnola was probably the 5-course Spanish guitar. In 1689 these instruments had to be imported to Florence specially which suggests that they were not in common use in northern Italy. Sebastian Virdung also describes and illustrates the Lauten and Quintern; the quintern is a small lute. Incidentally the four pieces in Barberiis' book for a 4-course instrument are also probably for a Chitarrina alla Napoletana - they are notated in Spanish tablature i.e. the top line is the highest course. You have to have read Meucci's article to understand why things called Chitarra etc. are not necessarily guitars. Unfortunately James Tyler hadn't read Meucci's article and a lot of what he says about the 4-course guitar isn't very helpful. Monica --- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} To: Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lex Eisenhardt [8]eisenha...@planet.nl, R. Mattes [9]r...@mh-freiburg.de Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 12:49 We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I have. Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am aware. Only one year after Montesardo. Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed in about 1630 and the version of which includes the continuo instructions was printed in 1640. I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was familiar with the chitarra spagnuola and had it in mind when he wrote his book. And he includes the chitarrina amongst the instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass line. I can't see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all. It was surely a small lute? Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; [3]eisen...@planet.nl; R. Mattes [4]r...@mh-freiburg.de Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:02 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
On 12/12/2011 17:24, Monica Hall wrote: Having a quick look at Meucci's article again there are a few other things which I think need to be clarified. The first of these is that in Millioni's 1631 book the 4-course instrument is referred to as il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana which suggests that it was a small lute rather than a 4-course guitar. Meucci points out that the first edition of the contemporary Italian dictionary Vocabolario della Crusca printed in 1612 defines the Chitarra as a kind of lute, which lacks the bass and soprano. He gives a lot of other examples where it is clear that the Chitarra Italiana was a small lute. Giustiniani also distinguishes between the chitarra alla spagnola and the chitarra napolitana. Stuart mentioned Calvi's book. The pieces in tablature are preceded by the note Le seguenti Suonate servire anche per la chitarriglia, ma sono veramente per la Chitarra. Although Meucci doesn't mention this instance it seems to me that the Chitarra here is also a small lute. The music is quite different from other music for 5-course instrument. No strummed chords and no 6/4 chords either. You can't assume that the term chitarra refers to the 5-course guitar. As ever Monica Very interesting, Monica. Is Meucci's article readily available anywhere? More to the point, is it in in English? And better still is there a good summary of the key points somewhere!! You say il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana which suggests that it was a small lute rather than a 4-course guitar. I've heard some sceptical mutterings over the years about the Chitarra Italiana. But now it simply sounds like an Italian version of the mandore which is some kind of survival of the medieval gittern/quintern... small, lute-shaped. The mandore became popular in France in the 1580s and the Skene and Ulm MSS from the 1620s have hundreds of pieces. Donald Gill thought that the five-course mandore would probably have been a bit bigger than the really tiny four-course instruments. The tuning of the mandore typically is 5-4-5 (but the top string could be lowered in some tunings) and this tuning is not at all like a guitar. The Skene MS does have a section with the mandore tuned like a lute, though. So: is the 'chitarra Italiana really just a mandore? (small or smallish, lute-shaped, even,perhaps, carved from the solid in some instances? But with more of a sickle pegbox than a lute pegbox). But then there is the angle which seems to have tickled Roman T: that the chitarra Italiana is not from lute/gittern lineage at all. I've only read tiny pieces pieces about the Meucci article but the suggestion seems to be a non-Moorish origin? Or, was Ralf hinting that 'humanist' writers in Italy, writing fancifully, (does Meucci chart all of this?)fancied the origin of the little lute in ancient Greek depictions of the 'pandurina'? Stuart Original Message - From: Monica Hall[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Martyn Hodgson[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:02 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601 Neapolitan publication). The instrument described by Cerreto is not a guitar - at least according to Meucci. Cerreto actually describes it as lo Strumento della Chitarra a sette Corde, detto Bordelletto alla Taliana. It is a 4-course instrument with a re-entrant tuning which as he says is imperfetto, por causa che in esso non vi sono tutte le voci graue como habbiamo nel Strumento del Liuto. He does however mention that the instrument can be strummed. Cerreto's book was published in Naples and the instrument he was describing was probably the same as the Chitarrina alla Napoletana called for in the Intermedia i.e. a small lute. The chitarrina alla spagnola was probably the 5-course Spanish guitar. In 1689 these instruments had to be imported to Florence specially which suggests that they were not in common use in northern Italy. Sebastian Virdung also describes and illustrates the Lauten and Quintern; the quintern is a small lute. Incidentally the four pieces in Barberiis' book for a 4-course instrument are also probably for a Chitarrina alla Napoletana - they are notated in Spanish tablature i.e. the top line is the highest course. You have to have read Meucci's article to understand why things called
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
The first of these is that in Millioni's 1631 book the 4-course instrument is referred to as il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana which suggests that it was a small lute rather than a 4-course guitar. But then it would be a small lute tuned like a 4 course guitar in 'temple nuevo'. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana which suggests that it was a small lute rather than a 4-course guitar. But then it would be a small lute tuned like a 4 course guitar in 'temple nuevo'. That's what it is. That is what Cerreto's instrument is and it has a re-entrant tuning. And he says E quando tale strumento si sonara arpiggiando con tutte le dita della mano destra, sara anco bello effeto, ma questo modo di sonare si puo imparare con lunga prattica. It could be the same instrument as Agazzarri's and could possibly have filled in the harmony with strummed chords as well as playing a decorated melodic line. Monica. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} Very interesting, Monica. Is Meucci's article readily available anywhere? More to the point, is it in in English? And better still is there a good summary of the key points somewhere!! Unfortunately it has not been translated into English although it has been translated into French. I suggested to Chris Goodwin that we should get it translated into English but he wasn't very enthusiastic. He suggested that I should do a summary of it and I did start but there aren't enough hous in the day to do everything. You say il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana which suggests that it was a small lute rather than a 4-course guitar. I've heard some sceptical mutterings over the years about the Chitarra Italiana. But now it simply sounds like an Italian version of the mandore which is some kind of survival of the medieval gittern/quintern... small, lute-shaped. Yes - that seems to be the case. So: is the 'chitarra Italiana really just a mandore? (small or smallish, lute-shaped, even,perhaps, carved from the solid in some instances? But with more of a sickle pegbox than a lute pegbox). Possibly But then there is the angle which seems to have tickled Roman T: that the chitarra Italiana is not from lute/gittern lineage at all. I've only read tiny pieces pieces about the Meucci article but the suggestion seems to be a non-Moorish origin? Or, was Ralf hinting that 'humanist' writers in Italy, writing fancifully, (does Meucci chart all of this?)fancied the origin of the little lute in ancient Greek depictions of the 'pandurina'? Well - not all of it and it is too late at night for me to go into all of it. But it seems possible that it was the characteristically Neapolitan small lute/mandora which Giustiniani mentions. He says Ettore Gesualdo and Fabrizio Fillamarino use to play it in consort with Carlo Gesualdo no less. He also mentions the sordellino as being a Neapolitan invention. And then there is the buttafuoco. These odd little instruments pop up from time to time and then pop down again. Monica Original Message - From: Monica Hall[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Martyn Hodgson[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:02 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601 Neapolitan publication). The instrument described by Cerreto is not a guitar - at least according to Meucci. Cerreto actually describes it as lo Strumento della Chitarra a sette Corde, detto Bordelletto alla Taliana. It is a 4-course instrument with a re-entrant tuning which as he says is imperfetto, por causa che in esso non vi sono tutte le voci graue como habbiamo nel Strumento del Liuto. He does however mention that the instrument can be strummed. Cerreto's book was published in Naples and the instrument he was describing was probably the same as the Chitarrina alla Napoletana called for in the Intermedia i.e. a small lute. The chitarrina alla spagnola was probably the 5-course Spanish guitar. In 1689 these instruments had to be imported to Florence specially which suggests that they were not in common use in northern Italy. Sebastian Virdung also describes and illustrates the Lauten and Quintern; the quintern is a small lute. Incidentally the four pieces in Barberiis' book for a 4-course instrument are also probably for a Chitarrina alla Napoletana - they are notated in Spanish tablature i.e. the top line is the highest course. You have to have read Meucci's article to understand why things called Chitarra etc. are not necessarily guitars. Unfortunately James Tyler hadn't read Meucci's article and a lot of what he says about the 4-course guitar isn't very helpful. Monica --- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} To: Martyn Hodgson[6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist[7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lex Eisenhardt [8]eisenha...@planet.nl, R. Mattes[9]r...@mh-freiburg.de Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 12:49 We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana which suggests that it was a small lute rather than a 4-course guitar. But then it would be a small lute tuned like a 4 course guitar in 'temple nuevo'. That's what it is. That is what Cerreto's instrument is and it has a re-entrant tuning. I thought that Cerreto had a 'temple viejo', strung re-entrant...? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html