Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On Tue, 29 May 2007 21:29:57 +0200, David Ne?as (Yeti) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:14:43PM +0200, Tobias Klausmann wrote: PS: On another note: how do you (as in y'all) feel about somebody re-arranging your text when quoting you? I guess the simple parts (everything for example gw} does) are okay with just about everyone. But what about the order of points made? Anything that improves the context of the reply and makes it easier to follow (wrt to the replied-to post) is good. I agree. So long as the meaning of the quotes isn't altered in a way that reflects badly on the earlier posters, I don't have a problem with rearranging quotes to deal with points in a better order. Really, what it all comes down to is making your point as clearly as possible, taking into account not only that you have the post to which you're replying fresh in your mind but other readers may not, but also that by the time your response is read it may be separated from its parent by many intervening posts. Everything that's considered good posting style follows logically from that. -- Matthew Winn
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Am Dienstag, den 29.05.2007, 17:05 +0800 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: PS: This Off-topic thread has been talked long and I'm sorry to bring excess load to vim mailing list, please mail directly to me if any vimmer friends wants to talk futher about it. Thanks. This was a very good comment. Please do your best for good etiquette and focus on good tips and tricks for vim :-) Thanks, Sebastian.
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007.05.29 05:15]: See, though I always do trim, I still suffered from those who do not trim and use bottom-posting. I take it your mail program doesn't have a hide-quoted-text function. Who says text-based mail programs are primitive? :-) -- JR
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Steve Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] 写于 2007-05-29 12:19:43: You could say that top posting is easier to write, but bottom posting is easier to read. The extra effort of one poster saves all the readers the same amount of effort. For a group, bottom posting keeps everyone on track. And if done well, individual posts can stand alone in an archive without a peruser having to go paging through a whole thread. Hi, It seems that top-posters and bottom-posters belongs to different party and no one can convice another. An explaination why top-post is easier to read: When I am viewing an e-mail, the reply is the main part of the message and I usually quite aware of what the original post is. So I should be able to see the reply when I open the message. If the message is bottom post, I will have to scroll down and down to find where the author really start to say something. If the reply starts on line 1000 while the messages ends on line 2000 it will be quite difficult to know line 1000 is the start of reply and I should read from that line. While for the top-post, I know the first line is the start of reply and I can read the reply without any difficulty. In an active forum, threads grown long quickly, with top-post, we focus on what the message saids and waste no time. Write top-post or bottom-post makes no difference for me, the problem is that I found bottom-post is harder to read since I will have to skim all original messages before I could read the actual reply. Well, since no one could convice another, I'll stick to the community rule. -- Sincerely, Pan, Shi Zhu. ext: 2606
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
* [EMAIL PROTECTED] is quoted my replies are inline below : Steve Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] 写于 2007-05-29 12:19:43: You could say that top posting is easier to write, but bottom posting is easier to read. The extra effort of one poster saves all the readers the same amount of effort. For a group, bottom posting keeps everyone on track. And if done well, individual posts can stand alone in an archive without a peruser having to go paging through a whole thread. It seems that top-posters and bottom-posters belongs to different party and no one can convice another. An explaination why top-post is easier to read: When I am viewing an e-mail, the reply is the main part of the message and I usually quite aware of what the original post is. So I should be able to see the reply when I open the message. Notice how I have set up my reply attribution above. It lets people know to look down for my comments. If the message is bottom post, I will have to scroll down and down to find where the author really start to say something. If the reply starts on line 1000 while the messages ends on line 2000 it will be quite difficult to know line 1000 is the start of reply and I should read from that line. When replying to very long messages it's best to trim the quoted message, leaving only relevant parts to your reply and noting where you have trimmed with something like snip, to avoid that problem While for the top-post, I know the first line is the start of reply and I can read the reply without any difficulty. In an active forum, threads grown long quickly, with top-post, we focus on what the message saids and waste no time. That's fine for one to one emails where you can usually remember what the conversation is with that person, but on lists where there are hundreds of messages it is difficult to remember details you need to keep context. In particular it's better for people searching list archives for similar problems years later - it minimises the time to find answers. Write top-post or bottom-post makes no difference for me, the problem is that I found bottom-post is harder to read since I will have to skim all original messages before I could read the actual reply. Again, if people trimmed as they went that shouldn't be a problem. Well, since no one could convice another, I'll stick to the community rule. :) -- Troy Piggins | http://piggo.com/~troy __ ___ RLU#415538\ \ / (_)_ __ ,-O (o-O \ V /| | ' \ O ) //\ O Vim 7.0.22 \_/ |_|_|_|_| `-O V_/_ OOO
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] 写于 2007-05-29 12:19:43: You could say that top posting is easier to write, but bottom posting is easier to read. The extra effort of one poster saves all the readers the same amount of effort. For a group, bottom posting keeps everyone on track. And if done well, individual posts can stand alone in an archive without a peruser having to go paging through a whole thread. Hi, It seems that top-posters and bottom-posters belongs to different party and no one can convice another. An explaination why top-post is easier to read: When I am viewing an e-mail, the reply is the main part of the message and I usually quite aware of what the original post is. So I should be able to see the reply when I open the message. If the message is bottom post, I will have to scroll down and down to find where the author really start to say something. If the reply starts on line 1000 while the messages ends on line 2000 it will be quite difficult to know line 1000 is the start of reply and I should read from that line. Such an event is usually an indication that far too much context has been provided (the me-too scenario, typically). While for the top-post, I know the first line is the start of reply and I can read the reply without any difficulty. In an active forum, threads grown long quickly, with top-post, we focus on what the message saids and waste no time. Write top-post or bottom-post makes no difference for me, the problem is that I found bottom-post is harder to read since I will have to skim all original messages before I could read the actual reply. Well, since no one could convice another, I'll stick to the community rule. You aren't considering the case where people are posting item-by-item responses (as I have just done). This is absolutely impossible to read when top-posting. This is why bottom-posting is preferred in pretty much any forum where item-wise responses are likely. You can argue about whether a top-post or bottom-post looks better for non-item-wise posts, but the moment someone tries to address individual points separately (which is often a good idea), there is no longer any room for questioning: bottom-posting is the clear winner. I thought that Mark Woodward demonstrated this rather well. Even if you're not posting an item-by-item response, top-posting effectively prevents anyone from writing an item-wise response to your response, since mixed top-and-bottom posting is a clear loser. -- Micah J. Cowan Programmer, musician, typesetting enthusiast, gamer... http://micah.cowan.name/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On Tue, 29 May 2007 14:12:07 +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An explaination why top-post is easier to read: When I am viewing an e-mail, the reply is the main part of the message and I usually quite aware of what the original post is. So I should be able to see the reply when I open the message. That sounds reasonable, until you think about it more realistically. A long-running thread may contain hundreds of messages spread over a period of several days, or even weeks. People are dipping in and out of the thread at all times, and they're reading other threads as well. It's just not possible to be aware of what the original post is in most cases. For example, your message is just one of 170 messages I have waiting to be read right now. When I read your message I may be able to work out what it's referring to after a while, but how am I supposed to know this right from the start with no context to go on? Remember, when you write your message the point you're replying to is fresh in your mind. When someone else reads your message it may be a couple of days since they read the one you responded to, so how are they going to know what you meant? If the message is bottom post, I will have to scroll down and down to find where the author really start to say something. If the reply starts on line 1000 while the messages ends on line 2000 it will be quite difficult to know line 1000 is the start of reply and I should read from that line. The problem there isn't the style of posting but the lack of trimming. Whether you top-post or bottom-post you should ALWAYS trim out any quoted material you don't need. Although many experienced Internet users complain about top-posting, often the real issue that bothers them is that top-posters almost invariably leave hundreds or thousands of unnecessary text dangling off the bottom of their message. The same attitude that says the cursor's at the top so that's where I'll type also says the entire message is quoted so that's how it'll stay. While for the top-post, I know the first line is the start of reply and I can read the reply without any difficulty. In an active forum, threads grown long quickly, with top-post, we focus on what the message saids and waste no time. That depends how you read your messages. A little-known but extremely useful feature of many mail and news clients is single key read. It's a feature that allows you to use a single key both for paging down through each message and for moving on to the next message. It makes reading large numbers of messages a breeze and is also easy on the muscles. Top-posting completely ruins this, because you end up having to page down through the unnecessary trailing content left by the top-posters. It's possible to work around this by using different keystrokes for moving between messages and for scrolling messages, but that takes more effort and, if you have to read thousands of messages a day, puts a considerable and significant extra strain on the hands and wrists. (It really does make a difference. I used to find my hands ached after reading mail and news for an hour. Then I discovered single key read. Now I just leave my hand resting lightly on the space bar and a slight movement of my fingers is all I need to do the work.) In general, top-posters are often those who haven't examined all the features of their software to find out how to use it most efficiently. They just find something that does the job and stick with it. On a web-based board I use another user had constantly complained that the new board software was much slower to use than the old software, but that was because she was trying to use it in the first way that came to her. When I pointed out the view new messages feature that she'd missed she was instantly converted to the new software. She'd disliked the new software solely because she was using it inefficiently, and that's how most top-posters are: they prefer it not because it's best, but because it works best with the way they read mail. To use the inevitable car analogy, it's like someone learning to drive by trial and error and assuming that the turn indicators are a great way to signal hello to his friends, and then getting all defensive when told that's not what they're for and everyone would get on more efficiently if he'd use them properly. Write top-post or bottom-post makes no difference for me, the problem is that I found bottom-post is harder to read since I will have to skim all original messages before I could read the actual reply. If you have to skim a lot of text then you should be complaining about people not trimming. If someone bottom-posts, leaves pages of lines before their own message, and those lines are not necessary in order to establish the context of their reply, then they're not trimming properly. The purpose of quoting is to establish context for the new message, not to provide a complete archive of the thread. (If someone _wants_ to read the
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Matthew Winn [EMAIL PROTECTED] 写于 2007-05-29 16:10:57: Write top-post or bottom-post makes no difference for me, the problem is that I found bottom-post is harder to read since I will have to skim all original messages before I could read the actual reply. If you have to skim a lot of text then you should be complaining about people not trimming. If someone bottom-posts, leaves pages of lines before their own message, and those lines are not necessary in order to establish the context of their reply, then they're not trimming properly. This get to my point: is it possible to ask EVERYONE to trim correctly? unlikely. See, though I always do trim, I still suffered from those who do not trim and use bottom-posting. If those who do not trim use top-posting, I'll not suffered from the poor trim, and I can do trim myself when I reply the message. Well, since no one could convice another, I'll stick to the community rule. That's the wrong attitude. This is the Internet. You're supposed to insist that you know better than everyone else even if they've been using the Internet for decades, and you have loads of lurkers who support your point of view but they're all too scared of The Clique to speak up, and when you're in charge you'll Show Us All. I feel you're talking friendly and for good. But due to my poor English proficiency I don't seem to catch what you said. The community rule in vim ML is to do bottom-posting, so I stick to the rule even if I don't accept it. What do you meant by wrong attitude? Do you mean I should insist my top-posting when I think it is right? PS: This Off-topic thread has been talked long and I'm sorry to bring excess load to vim mailing list, please mail directly to me if any vimmer friends wants to talk futher about it. Thanks. -- Sincerely, Pan, Shi Zhu. ext: 2606
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matthew Winn [EMAIL PROTECTED] 写于 2007-05-29 16:10:57: That's the wrong attitude. This is the Internet. You're supposed to insist that you know better than everyone else even if they've been using the Internet for decades, and you have loads of lurkers who support your point of view but they're all too scared of The Clique to speak up, and when you're in charge you'll Show Us All. I feel you're talking friendly and for good. But due to my poor English proficiency I don't seem to catch what you said. I think your English is good. Even native speakers sometimes have difficulty detecting sarcasm[1], which is notoriously easy to overlook in written language. I'm quite sure Matthew was being sarcastic here, and was actually complimenting your behavior by stating the opposite of the intended meaning (as the Wikipedia article on sarcasm explains it). PS: This Off-topic thread has been talked long and I'm sorry to bring excess load to vim mailing list, please mail directly to me if any vimmer friends wants to talk futher about it. Thanks. I continue to be impressed by the Vim mailing list. Contributors are helpful, willing to spend time answering in detail, and above all very polite. This is one of the nicest top- versus bottom-posting discussions I've seen on a mailing list :-) Michael Henry [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Christian J. Robinson wrote: On Tue, 29 May 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting (i.e. replied message shows before the original message), In my experience it's more that it can be frustrating to try to automatically position the cursor without the software guessing wrong, and it's not helpful for context replying (see below). In other words, it's better to let the user move the cursor where he wants it. I wonder whether the cursor starts at the top of the email message because that's where the trimming would most naturally begin, rather than to facilitate top-posting. Perhaps it's the default deletion point instead of the default insertion point :-) Michael Henry
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Michael Henry wrote: [...] I continue to be impressed by the Vim mailing list. Contributors are helpful, willing to spend time answering in detail, and above all very polite. This is one of the nicest top- versus bottom-posting discussions I've seen on a mailing list :-) Michael Henry Yes indeed. In many a ML/NG I have known, this discussion would have long before degenerated into throwing animal names. Best regards, Tony. -- About the time we think we can make ends meet, somebody moves the ends. -- Herbert Hoover
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On Tue, 29 May 2007 06:25:40 -0400, Michael Henry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matthew Winn [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2007-05-29 16:10:57: That's the wrong attitude. This is the Internet. You're supposed to insist that you know better than everyone else even if they've been using the Internet for decades, and you have loads of lurkers who support your point of view but they're all too scared of The Clique to speak up, and when you're in charge you'll Show Us All. I feel you're talking friendly and for good. But due to my poor English proficiency I don't seem to catch what you said. I think your English is good. Even native speakers sometimes have difficulty detecting sarcasm[1], which is notoriously easy to overlook in written language. I'm quite sure Matthew was being sarcastic here, and was actually complimenting your behavior by stating the opposite of the intended meaning (as the Wikipedia article on sarcasm explains it). I was; it hadn't occurred to me that it might not be clear to everyone whose first language isn't English. The point I was making is that the Vim list is civilised about discussions like this, unlike most places. I've seen similar debates elsewhere where the top-poster's response has been along the lines of This is my Internet on my computer; I'm going to behave how I want and I don't care how much trouble I cause for other people. -- Matthew Winn
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Matthew Winn wrote: [...] I've seen similar debates elsewhere where the top-poster's response has been along the lines of This is my Internet on my computer; I'm going to behave how I want and I don't care how much trouble I cause for other people. :D :D :D Best regards, Tony. -- Executive ability is deciding quickly and getting somebody else to do the work. -- John G. Pollard
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On 5/28/07, Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Folks, In the spirit contrarianism, I'm going to top-post now. Actually, both parts of Mark's post below were of a _third_ variety: interlinear comments. I disagree. Interlinear is not third variety, but a subcategory of either top-posting, or of bottom-posting. To make it clearer: If someone A places his comment *below* the quote he is commenting on, this is bottom-posting, essentially -- although split in pieces. If B places his comments right *above* quotes he is commenting on, this is variant of bottom-posting. When you are commenting on a single quote of somebody, then what you call intelineated reduces to pure top-posting or bottom posting. There is yet another schol of responding, which is to erase all previous material completely and include only the response in the body. It can be summarised as you remember what you wrote, didn't you ? If you don't remember, it's not *my* problem BTW since nobody interlineates his comments *above* the quotes he's commenting on, I think this makes another argument for bottom-posting. Yakov
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On 5/28/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting some email clients have an option. But it does not help much. Top-vs-bottom depends on the specific mailing list. If I am on mailing list X which has convention of bottom-posting and also on mailing list Y which has convention of top-posting, then single option in mail client is not much helpful. gmail doesn't have this option at all, but I dont feel invonvenienced. Yakov
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Yakov Lerner wrote: On 5/28/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting some email clients have an option. But it does not help much. Top-vs-bottom depends on the specific mailing list. If I am on mailing list X which has convention of bottom-posting and also on mailing list Y which has convention of top-posting, then single option in mail client is not much helpful. gmail doesn't have this option at all, but I dont feel invonvenienced. Yakov Some mailers, such as Thunderbird which I use, have a thing named identities: I can set one or more identities for a each mail or news account, and quoting preference (quote or not, and put the cursor above or below the quote) is among the options I can set for each identity. Of course, webmail accounts use browsers, not email clients, which means the webmail provider makes its own rules and the customer has no choice of interface. (As you can guess, I don't like webmail.) Best regards, Tony. -- A Mormon is a man that has the bad taste and the religion to do what a good many other people are restrained from doing by conscientious scruples and the police. -- Mr. Dooley
RE: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
An explaination why top-post is easier to read: When I am viewing an e-mail, the reply is the main part of the message and I usually quite aware of what the original post is. So I should be able to see the reply when I open the message. And if the message is edited down correctly, it likely will be. If the message is bottom post, I will have to scroll down and down to find where the author really start to say something. If the reply starts on line 1000 while the messages ends on line 2000 it will be quite difficult to know line 1000 is the start of reply and I should read from that line. Uhhh, 1000 lines of quoted-text needs some *serious* editing. I try to only include directly-relevant sections of text; if someone needs to see all 1000 previous messages to follow the thread, he's welcome to go and get those messages. Top quoting is okay for things that don't require any brainpower, like Okay, sounds good. I was in the mood for pizza, if you wouldn't mind. Yeah, I was a little hungry. Where do you want to go? Anyone up for lunch? and that's it. Look at all the reply/text/reply/text/reply/text sections in just *this* email. Were you asking a technical question of multiple parts, it would be easy to follow each little subthread in the email. With top-posting, I'm *NOT* going to constantly scroll down then back up to make sure I addressed each and every issue. (Not intended to sound snarky or addressed to you specifically, but to The Reader in general...) Quite simply, if it's too much of a bother for you to properly format email, then it's too much of a bother for *me* to answer completely. It's that simple. Worse, you don't know which bundled-together paragraph in the top-posted reply belongs to which section in the quoted text below, and that's *if* I choose to address more than one issue in my reply. If I see that it would require replies to multiple sections of quoted text, I'm more likely than not to get frustrated with how much extra work would be required to plan my reply to make it clear for you to read (lacking any locational context as to what part of the reply belongs with which section in the quoted text), and simply not reply at all. While for the top-post, I know the first line is the start of reply and I can read the reply without any difficulty. In an active forum, threads grown long quickly, with top-post, we focus on what the message saids and waste no time. And if 90% of the entire message is quoted text that's never even looked at, why include it at all? Again, that's the laziness of peoples' refusal to properly edit their replies. Write top-post or bottom-post makes no difference for me, the problem is that I found bottom-post is harder to read since I will have to skim all original messages before I could read the actual reply. Again, it's a lack of editing (ie, laziness) that creates this problem, *NOT* bottom-quoting in general. Well, since no one could convice another, I'll stick to the community rule. That'd work...
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Op dinsdag 29 mei 2007, schreef Gene Kwiecinski: Write top-post or bottom-post makes no difference for me, the problem is that I found bottom-post is harder to read since I will have to skim all original messages before I could read the actual reply. Again, it's a lack of editing (ie, laziness) that creates this problem, *NOT* bottom-quoting in general. Since you yourself are too lazy to fix your own quoted text, may i suggest http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ ? (other people using Outlook Express can use http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/) The above text, broken (even more broken) by my client (which was expected), should've looked more like: quote Write top-post or bottom-post makes no difference for me, the problem is that I found bottom-post is harder to read since I will have to skim all original messages before I could read the actual reply. Again, it's a lack of editing (ie, laziness) that creates this problem, *NOT* bottom-quoting in general. /quote Peter Palm
RE: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Write top-post or bottom-post makes no difference for me, the problem Since you yourself are too lazy to fix your own quoted text, may i Uhhh, that's not *my* doing, as the text gets resplit/rewrapped somewhere else along the line. About the only thing I *could* do is manually split it shorter than the default (whatever that is). Want me to show you an actual screencap of my reply as it went out from here?
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Sounds very archaic, but if I read mails with dumb terminals (baud rate 2400 bps), and if I am not familiar with the subject of the thread, top posting would be painful. It would especially be so to whoever has the honor of answering most of the questions on the list... But other than that, most of the times, I find bottom posting more inefficient. It feels like when I grade a student's report where the questions are mixed with answers and they are not quite visually separated. (On pine, they are not...) When I know what the question was, I come to wish that I had answers at the top, rather than having to page down several times to read the whole. At the same time, sometimes a nicely matched q a sorted in order saves me time... especially when I search old archives. Regards, Ben K. Developer http://benix.tamu.edu
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
A slightly OT note, which amazingly is more IT than the thread itself Uhhh, that's not my doing, as the text gets resplit/rewrapped somewhere else along the line. About the only thing I could do is manually split it shorter than the default (whatever that is) Reformatting the quoted blocks (gq} or visual+gq as you like best) while you're formatting your email works quite well. Tobia
RE: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Uhhh, that's not my doing, as the text gets resplit/rewrapped somewhere else along the line. About the only thing I could do is manually split it shorter than the default (whatever that is) Reformatting the quoted blocks (gq} or visual+gq as you like best) while you're formatting your email works quite well. Uhh, I *do*. gqap, actually (iirr). (Learned that trick here, in fact.) That's what I mean by manually, vs letting the mailer itself autowrap. Thing is, if I don't know what's the default max-width of v.o's messages, being over by just 1 char will still do the long/short/long/short/... rewraps. Point being that it's not on this end where the rewrap gets done, but somewhere on the 'vim.org' side, either translating incoming email to whatever margins, etc., it prefers, else reformatting it somewhat when sending it back out to the list. I've had private/offline correspondence with quite many people on this list, have seen my own replies echoed back, and have yet to see this wrapping issue apply to any off-list items. Given that I'm stuck with LookOut here, I have to cp (^A^X from LO) to 'vim' (shift-ins), then :g/^ /s// :g/^./s// gqap(per paragraph, iirr) then cp it back to LO's draft before sending. Crude, but more or less effective.
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Am 29.05.2007 um 12:29 schrieb Michael Henry: I wonder whether the cursor starts at the top of the email message because that's where the trimming would most naturally begin, rather than to facilitate top-posting. Perhaps it's the default deletion point instead of the default insertion point :-) That's why Vim starts in normal mode, not in insert mode. Axel, on topic for once
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Am 29.05.2007 um 05:00 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi vimmers: Slightly Off-topic, but I'm still wondering why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List. As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting (i.e. replied message shows before the original message), So far I have only met one e-mail client that forces the user to top-post. Its use leads to page long full quotes even after a few iterations. Since you top-post, you never see what has already accumulated. and I personally feel top-posting much much easier to read than bottom-posting. This only works for the One question, one answer type of mails. Even in this short answer there are two statements to which I reply. And I don't even answer your original question, since you got sufficient replies already. And now the same as a top-post for comparison: So far I have only met one e-mail client that forces the user to top-post. Its use leads to page long full quotes even after a few iterations. Since you top-post, you never see what has already accumulated. This only works for the One question, one answer type of mails. Even in this short answer there are two statements to which I reply. And I don't even answer your original question, since you got sufficient replies already. Hi vimmers: Slightly Off-topic, but I'm still wondering why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List. As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting (i.e. replied message shows before the original message), and I personally feel top-posting much much easier to read than bottom-posting. Axel
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Hi! On Tue, 29 May 2007, Axel Kielhorn wrote: Am 29.05.2007 um 05:00 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Slightly Off-topic, but I'm still wondering why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List. As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting (i.e. replied message shows before the original message), So far I have only met one e-mail client that forces the user to top-post. Its use leads to page long full quotes even after a few iterations. Since you top-post, you never see what has already accumulated. Also it encourages lazyness: by not needing to find the spot where one would answer the original poster. If I can't even be bothered to find said spot, why should I trim what's irrelevant? and I personally feel top-posting much much easier to read than bottom-posting. This only works for the One question, one answer type of mails. And even then, I find it very counter-intuitive. Even if there's just one question, one answer, it's order is reversed. One might see that differently in those cultures, where text is written from the bottom up. Not that I'd know of such a culture. Regards, Tobias PS: On another note: how do you (as in y'all) feel about somebody re-arranging your text when quoting you? I guess the simple parts (everything for example gw} does) are okay with just about everyone. But what about the order of points made? -- In the future, everyone will be anonymous for 15 minutes.
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On 5/29/07, Ben Kim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds very archaic, but if I read mails with dumb terminals (baud rate 2400 bps), and if I am not familiar with the subject of the thread, top posting would be painful. It would especially be so to whoever has the honor of answering most of the questions on the list... But other than that, most of the times, I find bottom posting more inefficient. It feels like when I grade a student's report where the questions are mixed with answers and they are not quite visually separated. (On pine, they are not...) When I know what the question was, I come to wish that I had answers at the top, rather than having to page down several times to read the whole. At the same time, sometimes a nicely matched q a sorted in order saves me time... especially when I search old archives. You just illustrated the 3rd posting style, the clear-posting style. It has certain advantage over top-posting and bottom-posting. Clear-posting is fundamentally clean, space-efficient and free of top/bottom biases. But wrt top-posting vs bottom-posting. There is additional parameter that affect readabiltiy even more than top/bottom. It's number of past accumulated tails that you leave in the quotes. Some people do not cut away any past tails. After 4-5 levels of nesed quoting, this becomes unreadable both in top-style and in bottom-style. I cut away all but last 3 level of past quotes, and then I shorten them by dropping the greetings, the signature and irrelevant part. Shortness of quotes makes for for readabilty of the response. Multiple levels of fossilization make replies less readable, not the top/bottom difference. Yakov
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:14:43PM +0200, Tobias Klausmann wrote: PS: On another note: how do you (as in y'all) feel about somebody re-arranging your text when quoting you? I guess the simple parts (everything for example gw} does) are okay with just about everyone. But what about the order of points made? Anything that improves the context of the reply and makes it easier to follow (wrt to the replied-to post) is good. Yeti P.S.: Top-posting is a sutable form for two monologues, edited bottom-posting for a dialogue. -- http://gwyddion.net/
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
It seems that top-posters and bottom-posters belongs to different party and no one can convice another. Follow to difficult conversation the makes questions the reading before answers the reading. Responding with the answers interlinearly makes the conversation easier to follow for people who read through the ML archives. It also goes hand-in-hand with trimming the unneeded bits, making it easier to spot the important portions of the dialog: the questions and the answers. Additionally, it demonstrates a respect for the reading audience's time, that you've tried to get rid of the superfluous text and that communication clarity reigns. Well, since no one could convice another, I'll stick to the community rule. Much appreciated :) -tim
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On 5/29/07, Gene Kwiecinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Uhhh, that's not my doing, as the text gets resplit/rewrapped somewhere else along the line. About the only thing I could do is manually split it shorter than the default (whatever that is) Reformatting the quoted blocks (gq} or visual+gq as you like best) while you're formatting your email works quite well. Uhh, I *do*. gqap, actually (iirr). (Learned that trick here, in fact.) That's what I mean by manually, vs letting the mailer itself autowrap. Thing is, if I don't know what's the default max-width of v.o's messages, being over by just 1 char will still do the long/short/long/short/... rewraps. Point being that it's not on this end where the rewrap gets done, but somewhere on the 'vim.org' side, either translating incoming email to whatever margins, etc., it prefers, else reformatting it somewhat when sending it back out to the list. I've had private/offline correspondence with quite many people on this list, have seen my own replies echoed back, and have yet to see this wrapping issue apply to any off-list items. Given that I'm stuck with LookOut here, I have to cp (^A^X from LO) to 'vim' (shift-ins), then :g/^ /s// :g/^./s// gqap(per paragraph, iirr) then cp it back to LO's draft before sending. Crude, but more or less effective. It may be a little bit on the expensive side, but it might be worth your while if you use Outlook at work to check out ViEmu [1]. The guy has it for Outlook, Word, Visual Studio (all flavors as far as I know), and some more. The Word and Outlook on come together, so it's really not that bad of a deal if you use both. [1]: http://www.viemu.com/ -- -fREW
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Hi [EMAIL PROTECTED], *, You got many answers concerning the technical aspects of top-bottom-inline answers. Apart of that, there ist another one.. A mailinglist is kept alive from two parts: people having questions _and_ people having answers. The latter ones often are lurking on several mailinglist reading hundreds of mails a day.. [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hi vimmers: Slightly Off-topic, but I'm still wondering why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List. [..] and I personally feel top-posting much much easier to read than bottom-posting. ..if You are one _having_ questions that doesn't matter very much, as long as You are interested in getting good answers. ;o)) Aparently a wide range of those more experienced people get their work done more rapidly an efficiently if they are fed with well trimmed and structured inline answered mails. So your chance for getting a valid and useful answer is growing with the number of readers, which can get the point of Your question and the following discussion with a short view. If You _have_ good answers it's up to You, how to spit them out - they will be read however ;o)) Is there any point (or historic reason) choosing bottom-post ? It seems to be some general experience for Mailinglist/Newsgroup traffic that things work better choosing inline answers. As far as I literally understand bottom post I am with You: I can't see any advantage putting the whole answer at the bottom of the mail. But perhaps as non native speaker I don't understand bottom well. btw. I join the voices that price the nice way people are discussing even that (off-)topic on this list. Vimmers seem to be a special kind of civilized people. :o)) -- Friedrich Schöne Grüße / best regards from south part of Germany
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Op Tuesday 29 May 2007 19:33:37 schreef Gene Kwiecinski: Want me to show you an actual screencap of my reply as it went out from here? Sure, take a look at: http://watmoetikjenogeenkeeruitleggen.nl/Vim-Quoting/quoting-kmail.png http://watmoetikjenogeenkeeruitleggen.nl/Vim-Quoting/quoting-mutt.png http://watmoetikjenogeenkeeruitleggen.nl/Vim-Quoting/quoting-source.png Peter Palm
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Friedrich Strohmaier wrote: [...] btw. I join the voices that price the nice way people are discussing even that (off-)topic on this list. Vimmers seem to be a special kind of civilized people. :o)) About being off-topic: IMO netiquette questions about a list are always on-topic on that same list, unless maybe there is another list in the same family (i.e., in this case, @vim.org) which is explicitly dedicated to netiquette questions. About politeness and civilization: We all learn by example. ;-) Best regards, Tony. -- 'Twas the nocturnal segment of the diurnal period preceding the annual Yuletide celebration, And throughout our place of residence, Kinetic activity was not in evidence among the possessors of this potential, including that species of domestic rodent known as Mus musculus. Hosiery was meticulously suspended from the forward edge of the woodburning caloric apparatus, Pursuant to our anticipatory pleasure regarding an imminent visitation from an eccentric philanthropist among whose folkloric appelations is the honorific title of St. Nicklaus ...
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On May 29, 2007, at 4:22 AM, Matthew Winn wrote: I've seen similar debates elsewhere where the top-poster's response has been along the lines of This is my Internet on my computer; I'm going to behave how I want and I don't care how much trouble I cause for other people. Trimming _and_ bottom-posting, Dave Land replies: On another list, one of the members insisted on sending HTML posts where the font was HHH HHH UUU UUU EE H H U U G E H U U G GGG EEE H H U U G G E HHH HHH UUUGGG EE His argument was that he had visual problems, so he had to use a large font. He was quite incensed that people were bothered by his ENORMOUS emails, and he couldn't be bothered to figure out how to make it so that he could see it just fine on his computer without sending 40-point fonts to everyone else. I believe it deteriorated to the point where the poster in question was hurling four-letter words at anyone who challenged him. The list master eventually turned off HTML posts. I'm glad that this list is so much more civilized. Dave
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Friedrich Strohmaier [EMAIL PROTECTED] 写于 2007-05-30 07:00:11: btw. I join the voices that price the nice way people are discussing even that (off-)topic on this list. Vimmers seem to be a special kind of civilized people. :o)) I think I could got some idea now: A mailing list is a list, where everyone could see all posts. So it is a good practise for trim, because those who want to see the original could go to the original message to check. That said, bottom-post messages has to be trimmed to retain a good view, so one often need to close the current message and find the orignal message in order to see what the thread is about. This is okay for a mailling list since everyone could see all posts, and bottom-post saves band-width. Office e-mail is very different: consider the e-mail may be replied several times and the fourth person decides to forward the e-mail to executive, he should include everything in it since the executive had not received the original message at all. This is the rule inside my company: e-mail should NEVER be trimmed unless we have a very good reason to omit or hide the trimmed part, interlined reply is not recommended in my office. So the quoted message might be very long, and top-posting is best for this case. Please do not blame Microsoft about the default-top-posting, Microsoft design software for money and for commercial use, the commercial may think top-posting easier to read and band-width is usually not a concern inside a company intranet. Okay, now I think its time to let new vim@vim.org subscribers know that bottom posting is prefered on Vim Mailing List. Will every new subscribers receive an e-mail when subscribe to vim list? is it possible to indicate the bottom-posting preference inside the welcoming e-mail? -- Sincerely, Pan, Shi Zhu. ext: 2606
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Dave Land wrote: On May 29, 2007, at 4:22 AM, Matthew Winn wrote: I've seen similar debates elsewhere where the top-poster's response has been along the lines of This is my Internet on my computer; I'm going to behave how I want and I don't care how much trouble I cause for other people. Trimming _and_ bottom-posting, Dave Land replies: On another list, one of the members insisted on sending HTML posts where the font was HHH HHH UUU UUU EE H H U U G E H U U G GGG EEE H H U U G G E HHH HHH UUUGGG EE His argument was that he had visual problems, so he had to use a large font. He was quite incensed that people were bothered by his ENORMOUS emails, and he couldn't be bothered to figure out how to make it so that he could see it just fine on his computer without sending 40-point fonts to everyone else. I believe it deteriorated to the point where the poster in question was hurling four-letter words at anyone who challenged him. The list master eventually turned off HTML posts. I'm glad that this list is so much more civilized. Dave The irony of it is that it's so much easier to set a large font for reading when all the posts are in plaintext. Best regards, Tony. -- If you stick a stock of liquor in your locker, It is slick to stick a lock upon your stock. Or some joker who is slicker, Will trick you of your liquor, If you fail to lock your liquor with a lock.
Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Hi vimmers: Slightly Off-topic, but I'm still wondering why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List. As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting (i.e. replied message shows before the original message), and I personally feel top-posting much much easier to read than bottom-posting. Is there any point (or historic reason) choosing bottom-post ? -- Sincerely, Pan, Shi Zhu. ext: 2606
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Hi, TOP POST:--- On Tue, 2007-05-29 at 11:00 +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi vimmers: I'll try and explain Slightly Off-topic, but I'm still wondering why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List. Most do, but probably shouldn't As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting (i.e. replied message shows before the original message), and I personally feel top-posting much much easier to read than bottom-posting. Easier to read for most, easier to insert replies. Probably historical reasons. Is there any point (or historic reason) choosing bottom-post ? -- Sincerely, Pan, Shi Zhu. ext: 2606 BOTTOM POST: On Tue, 2007-05-29 at 11:00 +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi vimmers: Slightly Off-topic, but I'm still wondering why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List. I'll try to explain As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting (i.e. replied message shows before the original message), and I personally feel top-posting much much easier to read than bottom-posting. Most do, but probably shouldn't Is there any point (or historic reason) choosing bottom-post ? Easier to read for most, easier to insert replies. Probably historical reasons. -- Sincerely, Pan, Shi Zhu. ext: 2606 Which of the above is easier to read? Which would be easier to read after several exchanges? ie you reply to points I made, I reply back, you reply. cheers, -- Mark
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On May 28, 2007, at 8:00 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Slightly Off-topic, but I'm still wondering why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List. As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting (i.e. replied message shows before the original message), and I personally feel top-posting much much easier to read than bottom-posting. Is there any point (or historic reason) choosing bottom-post ? I have seen it explained like this: A: Because it disrupts the flow of the conversation. Q: Why is top-posting deprecated? I don't agree 100% with that pithy example, because quite a few forums, blogs and bulletin boards default to most-recent-message first, which is essentially top-posting. In fact, I work at a company that develops and runs online communities, and many end-users (and some of the clients who hire us to do their communities choose to list threads that way. As for me, I adapt to whatever is the preference of the community. In some, top-posting is a quick trip to a flame-war. In others, it is the norm. Dave
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On Tue, 2007-05-29 at 11:00 +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Slightly Off-topic, but I'm still wondering why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List. As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting (i.e. replied message shows before the original message), and I personally feel top-posting much much easier to read than bottom-posting. Is there any point (or historic reason) choosing bottom-post ? Two different explanations: 1. http://www.american.edu/cas/econ/htmlmail.htm (See under Interlineated responses) 2. (One of my favorite signatures) :: A: Because it's not the order people normally read. :: Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? :: A: Top-posting. :: Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? You could say that top posting is easier to write, but bottom posting is easier to read. The extra effort of one poster saves all the readers the same amount of effort. For a group, bottom posting keeps everyone on track. And if done well, individual posts can stand alone in an archive without a peruser having to go paging through a whole thread. -- Steve Hall [ digitect dancingpaper com ]
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
On Tue, 29 May 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Slightly Off-topic, but I'm still wondering why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List. It's usually preferred more than top-posting. Even on the blind Linux users' mailing list they prefer that you don't top-post. As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting (i.e. replied message shows before the original message), In my experience it's more that it can be frustrating to try to automatically position the cursor without the software guessing wrong, and it's not helpful for context replying (see below). In other words, it's better to let the user move the cursor where he wants it. Those email clients that automatically insert your signature above the quoted message are generally considered to be broken--regardless of whether you prefer to top-post--but that's another issue involving its own discussion.[1] and I personally feel top-posting much much easier to read than bottom-posting. This is a matter of opinion and great debate. I've seen the arguments get as heated as the infamous editor wars. Is there any point (or historic reason) choosing bottom-post ? Email etiquette is that you trim the message you're responding to down to the minimum while retaining context, and intersperse your replies to the relevant sections of the original message (as I've done here). Top-posting makes it impossible to do this and makes it unclear exactly what you're responding to, especially if you don't trim--a bad habit I see far more often among top-posters. Occasionally I see a tagline that illustrates it very well: A. Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion Q. Why is top posting bad? Also, I'd like to point out that just because something is done for historical reasons doesn't make it bad, outmoded, invalid, or whatever. After all, if that were true vi/Vim wouldn't be used any more.[2] There are usually good reasons why things become established conventions, and rarely do those reasons just go away. - Christian [1] In summary, you shouldn't include the signature of the original message in your reply and your signature should always appear at the bottom of your message--preferably after a signature delimiter line (-- (dash, dash, space)). The sig-delimiter allows email clients to automatically strip out the signature when you select reply. [2] Occasionally you'll see people contend that vi is a legacy editor and for that reason shouldn't be used any more, and by extension Vim is flawed because it's based on a legacy editor. -- In specifications, Murphy's Law supersedes Ohm's. Christian J. Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://infynity.spodzone.com/ PGP keys: 0x893B0EAF / 0xFB698360 http://infynity.spodzone.com/pgp
Re: Why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List?
Folks, In the spirit contrarianism, I'm going to top-post now. Actually, both parts of Mark's post below were of a _third_ variety: interlinear comments. On many communities, this is the preferred method, especially if the posts tend to be longish and contain many separate points that need to be answered. Thus, you have three choices: - Top-post, the default for many mail clients, as PanShiZhu notes Best known for inciting flame wars in some communities. - Bottom-post, which some say preserves the flow of conversation, and which happens to be the practice of this community. A good way to avoid flame wars on some communities. - Interlinear comments, which allows complex posts to be answered point-by-point. The preferred tool of flame-warriors in many communities, because they can show what an ass their victim is with pin-point precision. Dave On May 28, 2007, at 9:08 PM, Mark Woodward wrote: Hi, TOP POST:--- On Tue, 2007-05-29 at 11:00 +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi vimmers: I'll try and explain Slightly Off-topic, but I'm still wondering why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List. Most do, but probably shouldn't As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting (i.e. replied message shows before the original message), and I personally feel top-posting much much easier to read than bottom-posting. Easier to read for most, easier to insert replies. Probably historical reasons. Is there any point (or historic reason) choosing bottom-post ? -- Sincerely, Pan, Shi Zhu. ext: 2606 BOTTOM POST:- --- On Tue, 2007-05-29 at 11:00 +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi vimmers: Slightly Off-topic, but I'm still wondering why bottom-posting is prefered on Vim Mainling List. I'll try to explain As far as I know, most e-mail clients defaults to top-posting (i.e. replied message shows before the original message), and I personally feel top-posting much much easier to read than bottom-posting. Most do, but probably shouldn't Is there any point (or historic reason) choosing bottom-post ? Easier to read for most, easier to insert replies. Probably historical reasons. -- Sincerely, Pan, Shi Zhu. ext: 2606 Which of the above is easier to read? Which would be easier to read after several exchanges? ie you reply to points I made, I reply back, you reply. cheers, -- Mark
