Re: [Vo]: Steorm
Sure, but Kaku is a public figure. If they choose 11 experimentalists plus Kaku that might make sense. They are unlikely to choose Hal, as they have stated they will not utilize scientists who may be sympathetic to the idea. They want the most cynical and skeptical. Since they claim the device self-runs, that seems wise to me. Mark From: Dean Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 04:13:37 -0500 On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:22:50 -0700, Mark Goldes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When ABC News published critical comments by Dr. Michio Kaku, McCarthy invited him to participate.To my knowledge he has not yet indicated if he will. Mark Kaku isn't an experimental physicist -- he's theoretical. Wouldn't Puthoff and group be a better choice? -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- AC?BG
[Vo]: Steorn
Here's a site with an interview and pictures. http://pesn.com/2006/08/21/9500298_Steorn_free_energy_gauntlet/
Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net
On Sun, 27 Aug 2006, John Berry wrote: Maybe you missed the part where they have useful patented security technology? Do you really think that running a scam is a good way to get your current technology picked up? And for that matter their careers as scientists and or designers would be over. Now THAT'S a good point. I was imagining a possible scam where either the money was big enough to be worth a sudden move to Brazil regardless of the cost to their careers... or it's a scame where they keep the game up forever, always taking in more investors, but always being on the verge of having an OU device to release. What have they put on the line? Several useful technologies they bothered to Patent. Their names. Their Careers and business. Scams hinge on money, so the possibility of a scam is proportional to their efforts to attract large investors, minus the costs to themselves. If they've honestly said no to huge dollar amounts in the past, and are waiting for results of their challenge, then it's probably *not* a scam. So you believe that it's already over, this isn't a part of the scam, the scam is over this is just to keep the current investors off their back until they can bother buying plane tickets? If free energy and investors are both relevant, then bzt!... assume that a scam is a real possibility. If there are plenty of unknowns involved (e.g. we don't know if they've already raked in large dollar amounts) then a scam is still possible unless we know better. I see it as a spectrum. For known honest inventors, the ends of the spectrum extend between it's real on one end, and it's a mistake on the other. Where the level of honesty is unknown, then add a second axis to the possibilities, going between scam versus real-or-mistake. But considering (I assume we both agree) that Free Energy is real we simply have to consider which is more likely, that this is 1: Some people honestly think they have FE but don't, 2: Some people honestly think they have FE and they do, 3: An elaborate hoax to fool current investors into believing they are going to get their monies worth. Lol! I wrote the earlier stuff before reading down to this point. As for FE, if it were fairly easy to accomplish, then we'd have had it for decades, perhaps centuries. I suspect that it's difficult, but also that anyone who is successful will almost automatically go down a path which silences the discovery. I think Jed's term was own worst enemy syndrome. 2 makes sense the only issue is that they are going about it in a way that Jed, you and I think is not really sensible but it's not totally absurd it has been effective advertisement and Mark Godles agrees with it so it's not a method that couldn't be used by inventors of a genuine FE device. It *could* be entirely real.Until more information comes in, the true status is somewhere between scam and genuine and measurement error (on a 3-axis graph!) I suppose this is possible but IMO this goes beyond reasonable suspicion. I would have little sympathy for any investor who would invest in someone that they can see is flatly lying to everyone but them. But that's a classic scammer strategy! Play to their ego, and just tell your rich victim that the general public doesn't have access to the secret investment opportunity being offered. It is true that testing in the jury members own lab (and certainly in 12 of them) in various countries the chance of some exotic power transmission is so low as to fully discount, it appears from their statements the jury will test it in their own labs independently and one thing seemed to indicate they will construct or at least be able to construct the device under test themselves. If they drop the secrecy and give over all info to the jury, then the probability of scam goes way down. That's exactly what they said they are doing. I saw that they were going to have skeptics test their device. That's different than handing the devices over. (But I haven't read everything on their site yet.) (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
Re: [Vo]: Steorm
On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, Mark Goldes wrote: That is great news! I have not listened to the interview. All the more likely they have done what they claim. If they just published detailed plans and construction info on their website, (and if the device is relatively easy to get working,) there'd be no need for this jury stuff. It looks like a publicity stunt, not a legit tactic. On the other hand, their device could be like SMOT, and be extremely difficult to work with. That would be a good reason *not* to just post the plans and let everyone try building it. (The Pons-Fleichman problem also involved a large number of failed replications.) But if secrecy wasn't their philosophy, they could just *say* that they'd otherwise just release everything ...but that their device is finicky. Where FE is concerned, secrecy has always been the major evil in the past. The secrecy keeps onlookers from knowing whether it's a scam. The secrecy sets up a catch-22 for selling OU products or even finding legit investors. And I suspect that if any groups want to suppress the discovery, inventor's secrecy is absolutly critical to successful suppression. Watch closely. We'll see if I'm right again. (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
[Vo]: Gifnet website
Any news on JL Naudin's Moller Atomic Hydrogen Generator (MAHG) as demonstrated to Kofi Annan in 2005?
Re: [Vo]: Steorm
On Mon, 28 Aug 2006, William Beaty wrote: But if secrecy wasn't their philosophy, they could just *say* that they'd otherwise just release everything ...but that their device is finicky. From PSEN interview: McCarthy declined to specify how many prototypes they had built... Huh? OK, now that's just insane. Why can't the guy say five? Or one? Or lots and lots? He doesn't want anyone to know?! That's nuts. Or dishonest. Or more likely, the whole group is infected with the secrecy disease. I bet it never even occurred to any of them to simply post all the construction details on their website. Then no strange machinations are needed. No jury or other sillyness. ...or how long they have run... Same comment: total insanity! When asked such a simple question, he can't simply speak the words they've run for weeks? Or whatever the time really is? ...how much power they produce, and other details of the design. How horrible if the general public found out any of these dark secrets. :) I did see other messages mentioning the power density for the device. But my comments still stand. If a reporter asks you what the best closed-loop run time is, and how much power it produces, and if you refuse to say, then that's a big red flag. If later you do give out this information, the red flag still stands. Why did you refuse to say in the first place? What's the story with this hiding THE SIMPLE DETAILS OF WHAT YOU'RE ACTUALLY CLAIMING?!!! Sheesh. (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
Re: [Vo]: Gifnet website
On 8/28/06, Nick Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Any news on JL Naudin's Moller Atomic Hydrogen Generator (MAHG) as demonstrated to Kofi Annan in 2005? None of it good. ;-) Terry
Re: [Vo]: Steorn
On Mon, 28 Aug 2006, Nick Palmer wrote: Here's a site with an interview and pictures. http://pesn.com/2006/08/21/9500298_Steorn_free_energy_gauntlet/ It might be real or a scam... but if it's an honest mistake, what kind of mistake would it be? One big possibility is that they've discovered a way to make magnets slowly demagnetize themselves while they also inject KE into a rotor. In the interview above, they mention that they haven't proved whether the energy is coming from the electrical energy that was originally used to magnetize the magnets. Neodymium magnets are famous for such effects: specifically, if two alike poles of NIB magnets are forced together, there is a kind of frictional energy loss as the magnets suddenly weaken. As I understand it, if we throw two NIB magnets together hard enough, they bounce inelastically but without ever touching, and they become very slightly warm. Maybe there's some configuration of magnets which evolves some KE during demagnetization, rather than just sucking in mechanical energy and heating the magnets. I'd think this would be very easy to detect. Just use some other type of magnet. If the FE effect is strong only for NIB magnets, then that's very suspicious. Or stick a magnetometer probe on a magnet face and see if the field is slowly getting weaker as the device runs. Or even better, take a clue from CF experiments and let the rotor run for enough hours that it should have exhausted the magnets' magnetization many times over. (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
Re: [Vo]: Steorn
There was an interview just on TV (4 p.m. est, 8-28) on Cavuto (Fox News--should be replayed tonight after midnight sometime) with the Steorn guy. He was at least open enough to admit that this clearly violates energy conservation and they have no idea where the energy comes from. In my experience, most of the frauds insist that the energy comes from some place, usually the zero point field. I find it at least refreshing that they aren't claiming that, just that it produces more energy than it consumes, now won't you please test this you scientist types. They say they are not going to ask for money. So, if they start asking for money or don't allow the tests, or put so many stipulations on the test that no one will do it anyway, then is the time to tell them to go blow. In the meantime, as long as it doesn't cost anything, I'll see what they have to say. Jeffery D. Kooistra -- Original Message -- From: William Beaty [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:41:03 -0700 (PDT) On Mon, 28 Aug 2006, Nick Palmer wrote: Here's a site with an interview and pictures. http://pesn.com/2006/08/21/9500298_Steorn_free_energy_gauntlet/ It might be real or a scam... but if it's an honest mistake, what kind of mistake would it be?
Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net
In reply to William Beaty's message of Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:36:37 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] It *could* be entirely real.Until more information comes in, the true status is somewhere between scam and genuine and measurement error (on a 3-axis graph!) [snip] Given that they claim to already have a device that not only self-sustains, but puts out excess power to boot, I think measurement error is already ruled out. IOW it's either a scam, or it's real. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
[Vo]: Re: Gifnet website
Nick, On the JLN forum, a fellow is claiming that a group in Czech Rep. has built a successful 9 MW reactor based on MAHG. I wrote him for details but have heard nothing yet. Any news on JL Naudin's Moller Atomic Hydrogen Generator (MAHG) as demonstrated to Kofi Annan in 2005?
Re: [Vo]: Steorn
In reply to William Beaty's message of Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:41:03 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] One big possibility is that they've discovered a way to make magnets slowly demagnetize themselves while they also inject KE into a rotor. In the interview above, they mention that they haven't proved whether the energy is coming from the electrical energy that was originally used to magnetize the magnets. [snip] Assuming that NIB magnets have an energy density of about 40 MGO (this is actually on the high side I think), then we can easily compare this to the figures they have already provided:- i.e. 500 mW/cc for weeks. Assuming only 2 weeks we get a figure of ~6E5 J/cc = 7.6E7 MGO. A factor about 2 million times greater than the energy density of the magnets. Unless I seriously misunderstand magnets, then I think this rules out energy stored in the magnets during their creation. (MGO = Mega Gauss Oersted, an energy density measure). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
RE: [Vo]: Steorn
How about running reverse speech analysis on the interviews with Steorn? I've tried it with my own speech and it seems to work. The truth emerges from it unless it's a rehearsed speech, and the reversals seem to come out of the coughs, repeats, and other innocuous sounds in the speech. I've liked the idea that politicians can never lie when reversed :) . http://www.reversespeech.com Check out some of Bill Clinton's and O.J.Simpsons reversals. Hoyt Stearns Jr. Scottsdale, Arizona US http://HoytStearns.com
Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net
On 8/28/06, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Given that they claim to already have a device that not only self-sustains, but puts out excess power to boot, I think measurement error is already ruled out. IOW it's either a scam, or it's real. Here's a closeup of the Steorn test rig. It is unclear whether it includes the actual overunity device: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/Steorn_test_rig.jpg Terry
[Vo]: Fwd: [Vo]: Steorn
-- Forwarded message -- From: Harry Veeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Aug 28, 2006 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn To: Terry Blanton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Terry, please fwd. to vortex-L since the list appears to be treating my email as spam. William Beaty wrote: Neodymium magnets are famous for such effects: specifically, if two alike poles of NIB magnets are forced together, there is a kind of frictional energy loss as the magnets suddenly weaken. As I understand it, if we throw two NIB magnets together hard enough, they bounce inelastically but without ever touching, and they become very slightly warm. Will the magnetism weaken if two unlike poles are restrained from meeting? Harry
Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net
On 8/28/06, Terry Blanton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's a closeup of the Steorn test rig. It is unclear whether it includes the actual overunity device: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/Steorn_test_rig.jpg Sean McCarthy was on FoxNews: http://www.foxnews.com/cavuto/ Click on Endless Energy Supply Terry
[Vo]: [OT] Let the Punishment Fit the Crime
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/28082006/344/saddam-s-cartoon-capers.html ROFLMAO! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Park:_Bigger,_Longer__Uncut
Re: [Vo]: [OT] Let the Punishment Fit the Crime
On 8/28/06, Terry Blanton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/28082006/344/saddam-s-cartoon-capers.html ROFLMAO! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Park:_Bigger,_Longer__Uncut You insensitive ba$tard! g Terry Amnot, R2, amnot, R2
[Vo]: (fwd) Tried to send this to vortex, but it bounced. Will you please post for me?
Forwarded on behalf of Mark Goldes. On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:16:54 -0700, Mark Goldes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Tried to send this to vortex, but it bounced. Will you please post for me? From: Mark Goldes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:16:54 -0700 Bcc: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:10:09 -0700 This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. Delivery to the following recipients failed. vortex-l@eskimo.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn not self-running! From: Mark Goldes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:10:02 -0700 Bcc: Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.175.15]) by bay0-omc2-s35.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:10:06 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:10:06 -0700 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from 65.54.175.200 by by104fd.bay104.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:10:02 GMT X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Mark Goldes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn not self-running! Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:10:02 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2006 23:10:06.0625 (UTC) FILETIME=[19DC7910:01C6CAF7] Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I finally listened to the tape and while it is easy to see someone misinterpreting what he said, there is no claim of self-running. What was said was they would run tests for long periods - weeks. But, these were to determine if there was any change in the magnet strength and temperature. As I have mentioned in much earlier posts, self-running, which seems simple and obvious, never is with machines of this type. It is, of course, the ultimate test and a prerequisite for all commercial devices. Mark From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:14:38 +1000 In reply to William Beaty's message of Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:36:37 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] It *could* be entirely real.Until more information comes in, the true status is somewhere between scam and genuine and measurement error (on a 3-axis graph!) [snip] Given that they claim to already have a device that not only self-sustains, but puts out excess power to boot, I think measurement error is already ruled out. IOW it's either a scam, or it's real. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
