Re: [Vo]:Shanahan is proposing the cigarette lighter hypothesis
At 08:29 PM 5/10/2010, Jed Rothwell wrote: Shanahan's arguments are pretty much the same as Morrison's circa 1990. There has been no change in the skeptical camp; no learning, and argument worth discussing. These people understand nothing about conventional electrochemistry or cold fusion. In a sane world, Shanahan would not be able to publish this rubbish anywhere but his own blog. Well, we don't know that it's been accepted, and it might not be. It's pretty bad. It does appear, though, that Shanahan may have been funded to write this by the DoE. Now, there's a project for Krivit. What happened? Why Shanahan?
Re: [Vo]:Shanahan is proposing the cigarette lighter hypothesis
Roarty, Francis X wrote: > [quote] At the point where electrical contact was broken, the cell gas > was very nearly a stoichiometric mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. . . . > I think that is a quote from Shanahan but anyway it is completely wrong, as I said. The HAD cells described by Fleischmann and Pons were all open, and the oxygen was long gone when the hydrogen emerges. The only thing in the headspace after the boil-off is boiled off water vapor. It drives out the oxygen, and air. For a closed cell, there is a little orphaned oxygen in the headspace -- obviously just enough to recombine with the emerging hydrogen. But there is hardly any gas. F&P used relatively large cathodes that held enough hydrogen to produce ~600 J maximum, which -- as Fleischmann pointed out -- would last a few seconds at this power level. Most cathodes nowadays are smaller. Shanahan either did not realize that his hypothesis is preposterous and innumerate, or he realized it and he plans to publish it anyway. Either way he is no scientist. Shanahan's arguments are pretty much the same as Morrison's circa 1990. There has been no change in the skeptical camp; no learning, and argument worth discussing. These people understand nothing about conventional electrochemistry or cold fusion. In a sane world, Shanahan would not be able to publish this rubbish anywhere but his own blog. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Shanahan is proposing the cigarette lighter hypothesis
[quote] At the point where electrical contact was broken, the cell gas was very nearly a stoichiometric mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. Significant hydrogen release will occur because the electrolytic loading was equivalent to many atmospheres of hydrogen gas pressure exposure, but the hydrogen present will inhibit complete Pd unloading. The equilibrium plateau pressure of Pd-D at ~70-100 C is ~300-1000 mbar8, and that the cell pressure is ~1000 mbar since it is an open cell, with at least 2/3 of that consisting of D2. Thus initial unloading to ~0.6 D/M units should occur, and not much more, leaving plenty of hydrogen in the electrode as hydride.[/quote] Once power is removed disassociation drops off dramatically. Only atoms can translate freely in the lattice so the sudden majority of diatoms Will also oppose unloading. If these atoms were fractional then the diatoms are also fractional and as such store this transitional energy. Fran
RE: [Vo]:Shanahan is proposing the cigarette lighter hypothesis
Jones Beene wrote: Can you cite the reference for this kind of bursting tube, due to internal pressurization, having being actually performed? See McKubre's replication of the Arata experiment. Regarding the pressure from electrolysis, it far exceeds anything that can be accomplished with mechanical means such as pumps. See Mizuno's book, chapter 7. I think the fact that gas loading works means that high pressure is not required for a cold fusion effect. I guess it means that high pressure is not needed for high loading; there are other ways to achieve that, rather than brute force. - Jed
[Vo]:NASA: David Adair\'s \'Quasi-Fusion:\' ?Cold, Warm, Hot?
Jack, I try to understand your posts and almost think I follow you for 2 or 3 paragraphs before it just turns into a word salad. You obviously have some Insights but could you please dumb it down a little for those of us still trying to catch up with the pack. Regards Fran
Re: [Vo]:Shanahan is proposing the cigarette lighter hypothesis
At 09:10 AM 5/10/2010, Michel Jullian wrote: No Abd, Shanahan may be wrong on many points but the "equivalent to many atmospheres of hydrogen gas pressure exposure" assertion is correct, it is even a gross understatement, in the P&F original paper they computed something like 10^26 atm IIRC. That's electrolytic compression: if you use a hollow Pd cathode, the pressure inside will rise to tens of thousands of atmospheres, until the palladium envelope bursts. It has been done. Fascinating. So a very low voltage is equivalent to a very high hydrogen pressure. The real issue is how this information is being used. Shanahan uses the high pressure to imply that this kind of pressure is behind the outgassing, whereas the affinity of palladium for deuterium inhibits the outgassing. The cigarett lighter effect is important, for sure. If oxidation, or anything, at the surface of the cathode heats the cathode, it will increase outgassing (once the electrolytic pressure is removed). Palladium deuteride is a truly remarkable material. It is, as it were, an alloy of palladium and hydrogen *metal.* That is, the density of hydrogen in it is close to that of hydrogen as a metal, which nornally requires tremendous pressure, partiuclarly at room temperature. But a piece of hydrogen metal of the size of the cathode is still just that much material to oxidize. And it won't oxidize all at once, unless you could melt (?) or boil the palladium while you were feeding oxygen to it. The cell only contains a little oxygen. 2010/5/8 Abd ul-Rahman Lomax : > The kicker is this "equivalent to many > atmospheres of hydrogen gas pressure exposure." No, the D2 pressure at the > cathode is roughly one atmosphere through the whole experiment. This is the original Shanahan statement: K&M go on to discuss a specific type of calorimetric result obtained by F&P commonly known as eheat-after-deathf (HAD). In the HAD experiment, a F&P electrolysis cell is allowed to lose enough electrolyte via evaporation, entrainment, and electrolysis that electrical contact is broken and current flow stops. Such an event is shown in K&Mfs Figures 4 and 5, where an excess power signal is observed for approximately 3 hours after this point is reached. It is instructive to review this result with the prior discussion of the CCS in mind. Once current stops, the driving force to load the Pd electrode with hydrogen is removed, and the system seeks to obtain equilibrium under the new state by releasing gas, converting SRNS-STI-2009-00825 the situation from an electrolysis cell to a gas unloading experiment. At the point where electrical contact was broken, the cell gas was very nearly a stoichiometric mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. Significant hydrogen release will occur because the electrolytic loading was equivalent to many atmospheres of hydrogen gas pressure exposure, but the hydrogen present will inhibit complete Pd unloading. The equilibrium plateau pressure of Pd-D at ~70-100 C is ~300-1000 mbar8, and that the cell pressure is ~1000 mbar since it is an open cell, with at least 2/3 of that consisting of D2. Thus initial unloading to ~0.6 D/M units should occur, and not much more, leaving plenty of hydrogen in the electrode as hydride. he's got the environment wrong. At the time the current flow stops, most of the gas in the cell is water vapor, not deuterium. The water has been boiling, at the same time as deuterium/oxygen evolution declines and then stops. Yes, there is plenty left. And it takes a long time to diffuse out. With the Pd and Pt electrodes exposed, a metal surface is presented which will catalyze the recombination of hydrogen and oxygen. That process does three things; a) it reduces the hydrogen pressure, causing the Pd to unload further, and b) it reduces the overall pressure, causing air to be drawn back into the cell, resupplying the oxygen content of the cell gas somewhat, and c) it produces heat, which will presumably be detected by temperature sensing devices in the cell. So he has burning of hydrogen as a pressure-relieving process. There goes the idea of using hydrogen to power an internal-combustion engine, except maybe by the vacuum formed as the hydrogen and oxygen gases collapse to form water. Clearly, the steady state is now radically different and the system would have to be recalibrated under the new steady state to translate those temperatures into heats. To do so accurately, yes. To do so in bulk, no. However, K&M report that the energy detected was gfar beyond the quantity of possible stored chemical energyh. No recalibration was reported in the 1993 F&P paper, so one wonders how this was determined accurately. Something had to heat the cell. At an even more subtle level is the consideration of the rate of hydrogen release from the Pd electrode, which would impact the amount of time heat would be produced by recombination. It is well known
[Vo]:NASA: David Adair's 'Quasi-Fusion:' ?Cold, Warm, Hot?
-blame Jack Harbach O'Sullivan-:-) Re comment: THUSWISE realizing this 'model' for epanding-dialating Protons(as micro-singularities) enhances the description of NOT ONLY CHEMICAL REACTIONS but also of FUSION REACTION be they 'cold,' warm, or hot. And Dave Adair's rocket in a magnetic bottle(EMF-Toriod-Plasma Breach) was fairly accurately described as a 'chemical-reaction' rising to DIALATED-PROTON quasi-FUSION levels of energy output. And thusly he called his motors(now state of the art in missile technology) as 'Controlled-Chemical-Fusion' rocket motors *** NASA: David Adair's 'Quasi-Fusion:' ?Cold, Warm, Hot? ADAIR BOTTLE IGNITION CHAMBER Re: Saline Mist H2O Jets, Vandegraaf Hi-density static charge hyrolysis-ignition nodes fired by Hi-EMF-density Capacitors. Sodium capacitative ionic-charge disperses-facilitates-catalizes the charge throughout the Adair Chamber. *SPRITES & JETS emulation: The Adair quasi-fusion rocket is copying the atmospheric flux-tornadoes-vortices that such up oceanic saline mist and then conduct inductive(lightning)hi-density charge and thusly become a 'natural' Adair-bottles which in turn foment a H2O-hydrolytic-then-firing sequence. The H2 + O2 reaction is attenuated in that 'some' of the O2 is becomes rather O3-Ozone and some H2 in the hydrolytic-split is form of H1-H1. Within the High-Charge electo-plasmic medium the Proton-singularity-centres are expanded allowing a 'dialated-eye'/induction-amplification of the Proton and its axial-flow Electro-Valent quantum-electron-flux-plasma shell with a marginal surge of ingress electro-Aexoplasma. The Proton as a balanced gray-hole singularity-&-shell 'micro-system' thus becomes 'whitish'(marginally more ingress electro-plasma from parallel AexoDarkEnergy HyperSpace); and thus in this High-Energy state also with the free Hydrogens, the futher energetic chemical firing of the hydrolytically-split Hydrogen & Oxygen completes the 'total' energy situation that causes 'some' of the free-hydrogen to FUSE in He-Helium. This is the chemistry/fusion piggy-back process of the Adair Mag-Vortex Bottle firing chamber rocket motor as well as the causal process for the meteorological-atmospheric phenomena of Sprites & Jets. It's 'not' for-nothing that Werner Von Braun made (then) 17-year-old David Adair(now of NASA) his protege' after David demonstrated his 'mag-vortex-bottle quasi-fusion motor' at his high-school science fair that he had constructed in his father's machine shop. And thusly the 'wild-card' factor can never be discounted as a critical adjunct to the more conventional inputs of classically univerity trained science-mathematicians-physics engineers & theorists. Although David Adair's 'piggy-back chemical/quasi-fusion' system is 'not exactly' LENR-CANR cold-fusion; its significance cannot be dismissed. RE Anti-Matter & Cern-Hadron, Fermilab, etc. It needs be noted that the Proton in the balanced Gray-State micro-singularity state creates a magneflux core-flow circulation creating its 'atmospheric' electro-valent-QUANTUM-ELECTRON SHELL. The directional flow accounts for the polarity of the Proton with its singularity-directional-axial electro-plasma flow(say northward) vs the EV-Shell circulating the same-electro-plasma/magna-flux-field 'southward.' So in short this is the same electro-flux magnetic field phenomenon that we are so prozaically familiar with; but the Nikola Tesla, for instance, did so very 'much' with that we are stilll 'catching-up' to in 'theory' that we have never yet thoroughly defined. HOWEVER: When the Super-Collided H-single-Protons are 'smashed' the axial-flow of said Proton Singularities is converted BLACK-SINGULARITY so that both poles are paroxismally 'flowing' back into the 'centre' and thus the QUANTUM-ELECTRON SHELL is immediately 'swallowed' and subsequently at the 'micro-black-hole' level the energy of the Proton is absorbed through it's singulartiy centre back in to parallel-AexoDarkenergy-Hyperspace; and at which point the micro-black-hole winks shut. CASE IN POINT: This IS 'really' what is happening ref. the anti-matter explosive-phenomenon. Actually what is happening is that the micro-Hawking's-Radiant 'electro-plasmic-back-wash' at the 'wink-out' point is trapped within a very brief hyper-compressed-cavitated state, but then explosively 'realeased' upon the 'wink-shut-closure' of the micro-black-hole. THUSLY: Anti-matter is a Fiction & a Red-Herring. Any 'normal-stable-matter-atoms' within immediate contact of this process will perforce be 'ripped-asunder' and will thus release its energy explosively as a quasi-fission reaction. And this is the actual story on what has been 'misnomered' as 'anti-matter-contacting-matter' reaction. THEORY based on the Anti-Matter conceptual model as a 'quasi-equal-state(quanity)-to-matter' at the B
RE: [Vo]:Shanahan is proposing the cigarette lighter hypothesis
Michel, Can you cite the reference for this kind of bursting tube, due to internal pressurization, having being actually performed? I have heard this before but not been able to verify it. The reason that I think it would be unlikely is that it presents an easy avenue for demonstrating gain - via direct conversion of oscillating pressure into electricity (via a magnet/coil attached to a bellows tube). I've mentioned this before. Someone with a little inventive curiosity would have done it by now if enormous pressure results from applied current only, and should have at least reported the results (if null). A high internal pressurization would be easily oscillated by AC in a palladium bellows tube of course, since it would have to be reversible - even if not gainful. A putative gain would be the expected result of the added heat from fusion. "Direct conversion" alone (of oscillating pressure into electricity) would be an important advance in getting LENR to market on a small scale without the need for lossy systems like TEG (5-7% efficiency) or steam (hard to scale down). Well - not just an important advance but *huge*. If I had not mentioned this possibility several times in past years, to no avail - then I might be inclined to rush off to the patent office, but methinks the "bursting tube" is a myth. Jones -Original Message- From: Michel Jullian No Abd, Shanahan may be wrong on many points but the "equivalent to many atmospheres of hydrogen gas pressure exposure" assertion is correct, it is even a gross understatement, in the P&F original paper they computed something like 10^26 atm IIRC. That's electrolytic compression: if you use a hollow Pd cathode, the pressure inside will rise to tens of thousands of atmospheres, until the palladium envelope bursts. It has been done. Michel 2010/5/8 Abd ul-Rahman Lomax : > The kicker is this "equivalent to many > atmospheres of hydrogen gas pressure exposure." No, the D2 pressure at the > cathode is roughly one atmosphere through the whole experiment.
Re: [Vo]:Shanahan is proposing the cigarette lighter hypothesis
No Abd, Shanahan may be wrong on many points but the "equivalent to many atmospheres of hydrogen gas pressure exposure" assertion is correct, it is even a gross understatement, in the P&F original paper they computed something like 10^26 atm IIRC. That's electrolytic compression: if you use a hollow Pd cathode, the pressure inside will rise to tens of thousands of atmospheres, until the palladium envelope bursts. It has been done. Michel 2010/5/8 Abd ul-Rahman Lomax : > The kicker is this "equivalent to many > atmospheres of hydrogen gas pressure exposure." No, the D2 pressure at the > cathode is roughly one atmosphere through the whole experiment.
