Re: [Vo]:DESCRIBING THE MANELAS Phenomenon

[Axil Axil]

@Brian Ahern

Regarding the speculation that the energy to drive the electric output of
the device might come from heat conversion to electron flow:

What component of the MANELAS device cooled down? Was it the magnetic
billet, the air above the billet, or the aluminum container that held the
billet?

It may be interesting to localize what component that the phonons were
associated with that fed the heat into this reaction. I suspect that it was
the air above the magnetic billet because a constantly renewing flow of
heat would be required to support a continuous transfer of energy to drive
a constant flow of electrons.

Was the black box that held the magnetic billet air tight?

If the billet was cooling down then the temperature difference between the
billet and the surrounding air would need to be greater than 5C.  I suspect
that the heat must have come from the surrounding air.

Do you have any idea about how heat flow through the device occurred?

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 8:51 PM, Brian Ahern  wrote:

> On September 23, 2012 Arthur Manelas told me he was handing over the
> technology to me to bring it forward. He had a massive aneurizm two days
> later. He never recovered and he died in December 2015.
>
>
> In his last two months of vitality he took the device apart and I have the
> components, but no details or drawings.
>
>
> It did work miraculously, but I am at a loss as to the rebuilding of the
> circuit.Arthur used fast rising pulses at 137 kHz.
>
>
> --
> *From:* Bob Higgins 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 21, 2017 6:55 PM
> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:DESCRIBING THE MANELAS Phenomenon
>
> What happened to Manelas?  Is he still alive?
>
> Are you still working with him?
>
> Has he shared the principles by which he built the device?
>
> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Brian Ahern  wrote:
>
>> The billet did not stop making energy. He stopped it to re-build. There
>> was no radiation observed with alpha, beta and gamma detectors.Also we had
>> 3 kinds of neutron detectors reading nothing above background
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:DESCRIBING THE MANELAS Phenomenon

[Brian Ahern]

On September 23, 2012 Arthur Manelas told me he was handing over the technology 
to me to bring it forward. He had a massive aneurizm two days later. He never 
recovered and he died in December 2015.


In his last two months of vitality he took the device apart and I have the 
components, but no details or drawings.


It did work miraculously, but I am at a loss as to the rebuilding of the 
circuit.Arthur used fast rising pulses at 137 kHz.



From: Bob Higgins 
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 6:55 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:DESCRIBING THE MANELAS Phenomenon

What happened to Manelas?  Is he still alive?

Are you still working with him?

Has he shared the principles by which he built the device?

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Brian Ahern 
> wrote:

The billet did not stop making energy. He stopped it to re-build. There was no 
radiation observed with alpha, beta and gamma detectors.Also we had 3 kinds of 
neutron detectors reading nothing above background

Re: [Vo]:DESCRIBING THE MANELAS Phenomenon

[Bob Higgins]

What happened to Manelas?  Is he still alive?

Are you still working with him?

Has he shared the principles by which he built the device?

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Brian Ahern  wrote:

> The billet did not stop making energy. He stopped it to re-build. There
> was no radiation observed with alpha, beta and gamma detectors.Also we had
> 3 kinds of neutron detectors reading nothing above background
>

[Vo]:Re: Amazon Appstore – Parrot Teacher is Approved for Jed

[Frank Znidarsic]

I am searching for markets that are too small for the big developers by big 
enough for me, myself and I.  I was thinking too complex.  Parrot Teacher is a 
keep it simple stupid app.  It has cute birds.  It needs a video with a happy 
young woman and pretty bird learning to talk.  I have just now began to think 
about all of the speaking birds in China, Japan, the Middle East, and South 
America.


I am going to redo my Parrot Teacher app. into the translatable format and keep 
the price low.  It will be fun to see what happens.  I would like to view the 
thing in Chinese and to see how it appears.  Perhaps I was a bit too stuck in 
the English speaking universe.Google took it upon there self or maybe it 
was just a computer at Google and alerted me to this possibility.  It amazing 
what technology can do.  Trump would be proud of me.


Frank Z




-Original Message-
From: Frank Znidarsic 
To: vortex-l ; rvargo1062 ; schallsm 

Sent: Tue, Feb 21, 2017 5:43 pm
Subject: Fwd: Amazon Appstore – Parrot Teacher is Approved for Jed


I learned something Jed would like.  When I was doing my apps I put text into 
quotations something like this:


print "Hi Jed"


The app then displays Hi Jed.




There is another way to do this by putting all of the text in the string file 
like


print @string greeting


In the string file is :  string greeting = "Hi Jed"


It seemed like an unnecessary step to me and I did not do it.  My apps worked 
just fine without it.


Now I find out that amazon and google convert everything in the string file 
into various languages.


Like


print "Kneechewah Jed"


That's amazing, all of the apps text is automatically converted into all spoken 
tongs.   I will have to put my text and help screens into the string file 
format and resubmit them.  My apps will then reach the global market in their 
natural language.  This will be a bit more work but it will be worth it.  I am 
always learning something new.


Frank Znidarsic

Re: [Vo]:DESCRIBING THE MANELAS Phenomenon

[Brian Ahern]

The billet did not stop making energy. He stopped it to re-build. There was no 
radiation observed with alpha, beta and gamma detectors.Also we had 3 kinds of 
neutron detectors reading nothing above background



From: Axil Axil 
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 5:14 PM
To: vortex-l
Subject: Re: [Vo]:DESCRIBING THE MANELAS Phenomenon

>From what Brian Ahern said, the magnetic billet he used ran out of energy 
>after two years. If this depletion is the case, then there must be some 
>consumable involved in the power production process. It is my belief that 
>there is a single cause for LENR. This cause involves transmutation and the 
>resultant transfer of energy from the nucleus during the LENR reaction.

The whole cloth production of electrons in these various LENR systems must be 
caused by the release of mesons from the nucleus.

Brian Ahern should test a small piece of this magnetic billet to see if he can 
detect any transmutation that has occurred in it.

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Chris Zell 
> wrote:
When all is said and done, wouldn’t it be true that there is a choice as to 
considering the primary source of these energies?  Either you are removing 
energy primarily from nuclei – and thereby transmuting them into something else 
(which preserves energy conservation/TD)

Or you’re removing energy primarily from electron spins or orbits – without 
transmutation of the nuclei – and that contradicts conservation/TD.
I don’t see how this gain would be otherwise – and if derived from spin or 
orbit, then non-rotary energy as jitter/ZPE would be eliminated as the source.  
An exception to TD and such if therein………

[Vo]:Fwd: Amazon Appstore – Parrot Teacher is Approved for Jed

[Frank Znidarsic]

I learned something Jed would like.  When I was doing my apps I put text into 
quotations something like this:


print "Hi Jed"


The app then displays Hi Jed.




There is another way to do this by putting all of the text in the string file 
like


print @string greeting


In the string file is :  string greeting = "Hi Jed"


It seemed like an unnecessary step to me and I did not do it.  My apps worked 
just fine without it.


Now I find out that amazon and google convert everything in the string file 
into various languages.


Like


print "Kneechewah Jed"


That's amazing, all of the apps text is automatically converted into all spoken 
tongs.   I will have to put my text and help screens into the string file 
format and resubmit them.  My apps will then reach the global market in their 
natural language.  This will be a bit more work but it will be worth it.  I am 
always learning something new.


Frank Znidarsic

Re: [Vo]:DESCRIBING THE MANELAS Phenomenon

[Axil Axil]

>From what Brian Ahern said, the magnetic billet he used ran out of energy
after two years. If this depletion is the case, then there must be some
consumable involved in the power production process. It is my belief that
there is a single cause for LENR. This cause involves transmutation and the
resultant transfer of energy from the nucleus during the LENR reaction.

The whole cloth production of electrons in these various LENR systems must
be caused by the release of mesons from the nucleus.

Brian Ahern should test a small piece of this magnetic billet to see if he
can detect any transmutation that has occurred in it.

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Chris Zell  wrote:

> When all is said and done, wouldn’t it be true that there is a choice as
> to considering the primary source of these energies?  Either you are
> removing energy primarily from nuclei – and thereby transmuting them into
> something else (which preserves energy conservation/TD)
>
>
>
> Or you’re removing energy primarily from electron spins or orbits –
> without transmutation of the nuclei – and that contradicts conservation/TD.
>
> I don’t see how this gain would be otherwise – and if derived from spin or
> orbit, then non-rotary energy as jitter/ZPE would be eliminated as the
> source.  An exception to TD and such if therein………
>

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Jed Rothwell]

Peter Gluck  wrote:


> Penon simply says flowmeter between JMP plant and E-Cats and anybody
> who has seen a plant knows ab ovo it MUST be immediately after the pump
> water flow measured, injected in the E-Cats
>

No, that is not what Penon says. Here is the circuit:

1 Reservoir => 2 Pumps => 3 E-cat => 4 Customer Plant => 5 Condenser => 6
Gravity return => 7 Reservoir

Penon explicitly says "flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling
water inlet into the shelter. It is located along the line of return of the
water. between the Plant of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat."

That is item 6.

You are saying it is located between items 2 and 3. That is before the JMP
plant. Penon *specifically*, *clearly* says it is at point 6, between the
"plant of the customer" and "the 1 MW E-Cat." That is also where Rossi's
schematic shows it.

What you say is *directly contradicted* by what Penon wrote.

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:DESCRIBING THE MANELAS Phenomenon

[Chris Zell]

When all is said and done, wouldn’t it be true that there is a choice as to 
considering the primary source of these energies?  Either you are removing 
energy primarily from nuclei – and thereby transmuting them into something else 
(which preserves energy conservation/TD)

Or you’re removing energy primarily from electron spins or orbits – without 
transmutation of the nuclei – and that contradicts conservation/TD.
I don’t see how this gain would be otherwise – and if derived from spin or 
orbit, then non-rotary energy as jitter/ZPE would be eliminated as the source.  
An exception to TD and such if therein………

[Vo]:Negative energies in LENR land

[Peter Gluck]

http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2017/02/feb-21-2017-about-negative-energies-in.html

Peter
-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:DESCRIBING THE MANELAS Phenomenon

[Axil Axil]

The MANELAS Phenomenon seems to be included in a family of overunity
devices that are related to negative resistance.

In electronics *negative resistance* (*NR*) is a property of some electrical
circuits and devices in which an increase in voltage across the device's
terminals results in a decrease in electric current through it.

 While a positive resistance consumes power from current passing through
it, a negative resistance produces power. Under certain conditions it can
increase the power of an electrical signal, amplifying it.

Fluorescent lamp is a device with negative differential resistance. In
operation, an increase in current through the fluorescent tube causes a
drop in voltage across it. If the tube were connected directly to the power
line, the falling tube voltage would cause more and more current to flow,
until it destroyed itself. To prevent this, fluorescent tubes are connected
to the power line through a *ballast*. The ballast adds positive impedance (AC
resistance) to the circuit to counteract the negative resistance of the
tube, limiting the current.

Harvey Norris  has posted here on vortex many times about his experiments
involving tubes of xenon plasma that seem to produce more power out than is
feed into it.

Another LENR system called the plasmatron

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFsTttzh0oA

There is a layer of dark mode hydrogen that accumulates near the surface of
the hydrogen plasma ball in the Safire experiment. It absorbs energy until
it reaches a limit where it erupts. The input power is 1800 watts of DC
power and the power produced during an eruption is 2,000,000 to 10,000,000
watts. There is also signs of a material with a nucleon count of 3 being
produced in the experiment.

A theory that could explain the development of the dark layer is the "Dark
mode" polariton soliton theory. The polariton "Black Hole" absorbs energy
until it reaches a limit whereupon it explodes in a bosenova. There is an
energy storage mechanism in play here and a possible indicator of a Bose
condensate as witnessed by a coordinated release of a huge amount of stored
energy. This is a behavior that would be expected in a system centered on
Dark Mode polariton micro black holes. This behavior is also seen in the
experiments of Holmlid and defkalion among many other LENR experiments.

This theory can be verified by the appearance of K-mesons and its decay
products such as muons and electrons. A particle detector that follows
Holmlid's design might work well in the Safire experiment it show that a
nucleon decay based nuclear process is happening in Safire.

This Safire experiment looks a lot like the plasmatron, an overunity power
device produced in the 1980's using hydrogen based plasma.

Experimenters in overunity could duplicate the Safire and/or the
plasmatron experiment
and test for emissions of sub-atomic particles.

It may be possible to take a sample of the gas from the dark hydrogen layer
and use a photographic emulsion to check for monopole based monopole tracks
as is commonly seen in many LENR based experiments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT-94c1Q6Ms

And last but not least is the Papp engine which produces overunity electric
current from a mixture of noble gases without the production of heat.

In summary, there is a class of related LENR systems that produce electrons
out of whole cloth without the production of any heat . Such systems have
little or nothing to do with hydrogen fusion and excess heat production.



On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:41 PM, Peter Gluck  wrote:

> Dear Brian
> please allow me to publish this in my blog.
> thanks,
> peter
>
> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Brian Ahern  wrote:
>
>> Excess energy and magnetic cooling seem to poke up every now and then. It
>> is difficult for even the most dedicated technologists to connect phonons
>> with magnons.
>>
>>
>> I have had some unique experience with this interaction during my tenure
>> as a Staff Sientist at USAF Rome Lab in Lexington MA.  I 1988 I was tasked
>> to understand the new cuprate superconductors. By shear luck I discovered
>> that MIT Professor Keith Johnson had solved the problem five years earlier.
>> In fact, his 1983 paper presented in Zurich directed Bednors and Meuller to
>> work on the cuprates. Bedorz was the leader of the conference in 1983.
>>
>>
>> He found that the superconduction arises when the Born-Oppenheimer
>> conditions are not met. That is, when the valence electron motion is
>> coupled to vibrational modes. The electrons are in molecular orbitals and
>> magnetism exists under very specific orbital topologies.
>>
>>
>> So magnetism (Specific electron orbitals conditions) and phonons can be
>> coupled under specific orbital conditions and one combination is shallow
>> well ferromagnetism.  Like the superconductor coupling, specific coupling
>> can lead to coherent behavior as well in  a ferromagnetic system.
>>
>>
>> More needs tobe said 

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[David Roberson]

Jed,

Does your diagram show how the floating device in the system tank controls the 
intake water flowing into it?  Also, does it show that the customer feed tank 
is located above the system feed tank so that water flowing into the second or 
system tank literally falls into it?  There are a multitude of possible 
connections.  I am attempting to visualize exactly how this occurs.

Dave

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Jed Rothwell 
To: Vortex 
Sent: Tue, Feb 21, 2017 10:07 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter




Peter Gluck  wrote:

 

Question: do yu have information from Rossi or you have the piping
diagram of the plant showing clearly and exactly (as position) where
in the gravity return pipe was placed the flowmeter?



This information is from Rossi! He uploaded these statements by Penon. I have 
this, and I also have a diagram showing the same thing, with the flow meter in 
the gravity return pipe.


Are you saying you don't believe Rossi and Penon when they tell you where they 
put the flow meter?


 

Can you ke a look and tell where was placed the main pump (for 1500
kg/hour- floating in the air or firmly placed on the ground?



There were many pumps, but they could not produce this much flow.
 

 

In any case NOT measuring the flow of water which enters directly 
to the generators and using a 25 times undersized pipe for steam are fatal 
flaws and if your favorite author Murray got it right than he is the diamond 
witness for IH.



This statement is from Rossi and Penon, not Murray. THEY TOLD YOU where they 
put the flow meter. It says:


The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it cools up to 
its condensation – flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet 
into the shelter. 



 

 On the contrary if he errs than he is just a plant illiterate
trying to find imaginary things- doing harm fo those who have paid him.



It is not imaginary. This is a document from Rossi filed in the lawsuit.
 
 

If you have such a ardent desire to contradict my assertions, show the diagram 
and..finita la commedia! 



Why do you need a diagram when you have text from Rossi describing this? Why 
don't you believe Rossi?


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:automation and its economics effects

[Ron Wormus]

It's not necessarily a bad thing. Watson is likely better at diagnosis 
than most doctors & computers can read x-rays and mammogram's better than 
humans  but there needs to be a new economic model in place before most of 
the jobs are gone.


--On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:51 PM -0500 "a.ashfield" 
 wrote:



Ron, I'm glad to see the press is starting to take notice of the
problem.  The article is wrong about nobody" taking notice of the
situation or of the forecast that 45% would lose their jobs in twenty
years.
Lots of people did: I did and wrote about it for several years. It's
true neither the government nor the MSM paid attention to it.

What has happened is that the wealth of American workers was distributed
to the low wage countries and the elites who arranged it.  As the work
is automated the real problem will be overseas countries where they have
come to rely on the low wage work and after that is lost aren't wealthy
enough to stop people starving. Here in the West, there are various
solutions like Universal Basic Income, although I doubt our politicians
will start to discuss it seriously until after there is blood in the
streets.

AA

On 2/20/2017 5:17 PM, Ron Wormus wrote:

This is fairly interesting.  The video at the end is fascinating:


https://medium.freecodecamp.com/bill-gates-and-elon-musk-just-warned-us
-about-the-one-thing-politicians-are-too-scared-to-talk-8db9815fd398#.4
6edoyjxi

Ron

Re: [Vo]:DESCRIBING THE MANELAS Phenomenon

[Peter Gluck]

Dear Brian
please allow me to publish this in my blog.
thanks,
peter

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Brian Ahern  wrote:

> Excess energy and magnetic cooling seem to poke up every now and then. It
> is difficult for even the most dedicated technologists to connect phonons
> with magnons.
>
>
> I have had some unique experience with this interaction during my tenure
> as a Staff Sientist at USAF Rome Lab in Lexington MA.  I 1988 I was tasked
> to understand the new cuprate superconductors. By shear luck I discovered
> that MIT Professor Keith Johnson had solved the problem five years earlier.
> In fact, his 1983 paper presented in Zurich directed Bednors and Meuller to
> work on the cuprates. Bedorz was the leader of the conference in 1983.
>
>
> He found that the superconduction arises when the Born-Oppenheimer
> conditions are not met. That is, when the valence electron motion is
> coupled to vibrational modes. The electrons are in molecular orbitals and
> magnetism exists under very specific orbital topologies.
>
>
> So magnetism (Specific electron orbitals conditions) and phonons can be
> coupled under specific orbital conditions and one combination is shallow
> well ferromagnetism.  Like the superconductor coupling, specific coupling
> can lead to coherent behavior as well in  a ferromagnetic system.
>
>
> More needs tobe said but there is some new physics at work in the Manelas
> billet.
>
>
> --
> *From:* bobcook39...@gmail.com 
> *Sent:* Monday, February 20, 2017 1:56 PM
> *To:* Chris Zell; vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Subject:* RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE
>
>
> Chris-
>
>
>
> I have understood that phonons are “virtual” particles that represent a
> localized energy in a crystal lattice made up of kinetic energy and
> potential energy in a resonant stable dynamic state.  It is primarily
> thought to be an electric field that couples the nuclei and electrons in
> the lattice—primarily the valence electrons.  The nuclei oscillate around
> some mid position in the lattice and valence  electrons change their
> orbital spin states reflecting the motion of the nuclei.
>
>
>
> Temperature of the crystal lattice is a measure of the amplitude of the
> nuclei special displacement around their mid position in the lattice.  If
> the crystal constitutes a coherent QM system, then all nuclei vibrate with
> the same amplitude and the crystal is at a single temperature.  If the
> amplitude (temperature) get to high, the crystal electronic bonds fail and
> the order of the crystalline coherent system is lost.
>
>
>
> Magnetic fields change the nature of the potential/kinetic energy
> sharing.  A preferred direction in the crystal is created relative to the
> magnetic B field that exists within the crystalline coherent system.  The
> orbital spin energy states of the valence electrons are modified.  Large B
> fields can cause large changes in these orbital spin states.  If there are
> resonances between a nuclear orbital spin state of the coherent system and
> an electronic orbital spin state, it would seem possible that spin energy
> may be swapped, changing nuclear potential energy into PHONIC  energy of
> the crystalline coherent system.
>
>
>
> A variable B field induced by a variable ambient H magnetic field will
> create a universe of differing spin energy states each with a small
> difference in it angular momentum.  If total angular momentum can be
> conserved, IMHO A TRANSITION WILL OCCUR.
>
>
>
> It may be also possible that the transition is reversible.  In such case a
> reduction of the temperature—lower electron orbital energy—would be the
> result.  (Such a reversal suggests a new concept of temperature, one which
> shares potential and kinetic energy between nuclear entities and electrons.
> )
>
>
>
> Bob Cook
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail  for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Chris Zell 
> *Sent: *Monday, February 20, 2017 9:35 AM
> *To: *vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Subject: *RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE
>
>
>
> I do recall Wingate Lambertson  - a scientist/expert on cermet products.
> Odd semi-ceramic things he called “E-dams” that generated excess energy.  I
> recall that he passed away before it could be fully developed.   It all
> sounded like phonon derived energy.
>
>
>
> *From:* Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net]
> *Sent:* Monday, February 20, 2017 11:14 AM
> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE
>
>
>
>
>
>  Chris Zell wrote:
>
> If I google “phonons as an energy source”, nothing in particular comes
> up.  If we are identifying them as the likely source of excess energy
> within a barium/strontium ferrite structure,  I would think that someone
> somewhere has thought about cohering them into useful energy.
>
>
>
> But if you google 

[Vo]:DESCRIBING THE MANELAS Phenomenon

[Brian Ahern]

Excess energy and magnetic cooling seem to poke up every now and then. It is 
difficult for even the most dedicated technologists to connect phonons with 
magnons.


I have had some unique experience with this interaction during my tenure as a 
Staff Sientist at USAF Rome Lab in Lexington MA.  I 1988 I was tasked to 
understand the new cuprate superconductors. By shear luck I discovered that MIT 
Professor Keith Johnson had solved the problem five years earlier. In fact, his 
1983 paper presented in Zurich directed Bednors and Meuller to work on the 
cuprates. Bedorz was the leader of the conference in 1983.


He found that the superconduction arises when the Born-Oppenheimer conditions 
are not met. That is, when the valence electron motion is coupled to 
vibrational modes. The electrons are in molecular orbitals and magnetism exists 
under very specific orbital topologies.


So magnetism (Specific electron orbitals conditions) and phonons can be coupled 
under specific orbital conditions and one combination is shallow well 
ferromagnetism.  Like the superconductor coupling, specific coupling can lead 
to coherent behavior as well in  a ferromagnetic system.


More needs tobe said but there is some new physics at work in the Manelas 
billet.



From: bobcook39...@gmail.com 
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 1:56 PM
To: Chris Zell; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE


Chris-



I have understood that phonons are “virtual” particles that represent a 
localized energy in a crystal lattice made up of kinetic energy and potential 
energy in a resonant stable dynamic state.  It is primarily thought to be an 
electric field that couples the nuclei and electrons in the lattice—primarily 
the valence electrons.  The nuclei oscillate around some mid position in the 
lattice and valence  electrons change their orbital spin states reflecting the 
motion of the nuclei.



Temperature of the crystal lattice is a measure of the amplitude of the nuclei 
special displacement around their mid position in the lattice.  If the crystal 
constitutes a coherent QM system, then all nuclei vibrate with the same 
amplitude and the crystal is at a single temperature.  If the amplitude 
(temperature) get to high, the crystal electronic bonds fail and the order of 
the crystalline coherent system is lost.



Magnetic fields change the nature of the potential/kinetic energy sharing.  A 
preferred direction in the crystal is created relative to the magnetic B field 
that exists within the crystalline coherent system.  The orbital spin energy 
states of the valence electrons are modified.  Large B fields can cause large 
changes in these orbital spin states.  If there are resonances between a 
nuclear orbital spin state of the coherent system and an electronic orbital 
spin state, it would seem possible that spin energy may be swapped, changing 
nuclear potential energy into PHONIC  energy of the crystalline coherent system.



A variable B field induced by a variable ambient H magnetic field will create a 
universe of differing spin energy states each with a small difference in it 
angular momentum.  If total angular momentum can be conserved, IMHO A 
TRANSITION WILL OCCUR.



It may be also possible that the transition is reversible.  In such case a 
reduction of the temperature—lower electron orbital energy—would be the result. 
 (Such a reversal suggests a new concept of temperature, one which shares 
potential and kinetic energy between nuclear entities and electrons. )



Bob Cook









Sent from Mail for Windows 10



From: Chris Zell
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 9:35 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE



I do recall Wingate Lambertson  - a scientist/expert on cermet products.  Odd 
semi-ceramic things he called “E-dams” that generated excess energy.  I recall 
that he passed away before it could be fully developed.   It all sounded like 
phonon derived energy.



From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net]
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 11:14 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE





 Chris Zell wrote:

If I google “phonons as an energy source”, nothing in particular comes up.  If 
we are identifying them as the likely source of excess energy within a 
barium/strontium ferrite structure,  I would think that someone somewhere has 
thought about cohering them into useful energy.


But if you google "Microelectromechanical systems" you will get 750,000 hits.

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[a.ashfield]

Jones,

This seems a typical negative piece from you.
I'm not a lawyer but I understand there are other ways to get the ERV's 
report entered as evidence, besides having Penon show up.


Why do you say Rossi would make a bad impression in court?  Everyone who 
has met him (IH excepted) say he is courteous and makes a favorable 
impression.


AA

On 2/21/2017 10:36 AM, Jones Beene wrote:
Speaking of Penon, or should I say the absence of Penon, has anyone 
considered the rules of evidence in Federal Court for getting that ERV 
report into evidence?


As it stands now, Penon - who is the supposed expert who collected the 
data and wrote the report is unavailable to appear for deposition. 
This means that the data in the ERV report may not be entered into 
evidence at a trial, which means that the case will have to be 
dismissed... since the contract revolves directly around that report 
and its validity. But there are strict rules for admission of 
evidence, more so for criminal trials but also for civil and generally 
it would seem that Penon must appear in order to have his report 
allowed into evidence at all.


In fact, an eventual dismissal of the case, after maximizing the 
delays as long as possible - looks like a *desired outcome *from the 
Rossi perspective. He then can then blame both IH and the legal system 
as well as Krivit and so on. But the drama drags on - kind of a cross 
between Seinfeld, a "show about nothing" and The Leftovers, which is a 
warped take on what it means to have faith. Rossigate is about warped 
faith, no doubt there.


The one thing Rossi does not want is to risk a jury which rules 
against him. He would not be a believable witness with his ego and 
temperament, and a good lawyer will tear him to shreds on the stand. 
He expected to settle in the beginning (probably getting bad legal 
advice) - but IH refused and now Rossi cannot walk away without 
looking bad ... but without Penon, a favorable jury verdict is 
probably not possible due to the problem of getting the report 
admitted at all, not to mention the dubious details.


Bottom line: additional reliable information on the science of Ni-H  
will probably not be forthcoming to the public this year and further 
delay is anticipated. Rossi may be content to leave everything in 
limbo and claim to be a victim of greedy investors. That may work to 
his benefit for the next round in another location.


A nebulous outcome would allow him to look for new backers in Europe 
or Russia. The suckers who invested $20 million in Steorn - a 
completely obvious scam, are still out there.


But if a jury rules against him, the party is over. Do not hold your 
breath for a June trial.

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Peter Gluck]

Jed,

Penon simply says flowmeter between JMP plant and E-Cats and anybody
who has seen a plant knows ab ovo it MUST be immediately after the pump
water flow measured, injected in the E-Cats

 on JONP Rossi said more times piping forms U flowmeter down- standard
engineering

you say- "many pumps, but they could not produce this much flow."
Much flow, 6.6 gallons per minute, 25kg/minute too much...were you awake
when you wrote this? (I know you are not drinking too much alcohol so the
explanation must be something bad)

Next discussion with you when you have the diagram. Waeted time is not
recoverable..

I must confess I am in very bad mood have to write a Blog nd no LENR papers
have arrived today, in no language. Desperation! Few LENR related papers &
news. But it is early, I still hope.

peter

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 6:27 PM, a.ashfield  wrote:

> Jed,
> I thought you said earlier that you had the plumbing layout but were not
> allowed to show it.  If so, there should be no doubt about whether there
> is  U in the system.
>
> AA
>
> On 2/20/2017 8:41 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> There has been some discussion here about the position of the flow meter
> in Rossi's configuration. I have information from Rossi showing it was
> located in the gravity return between the customer site and the reservoir.
> I do not think there was a U pipe but I cannot rule that out 100%. Nothing
> like that is shown and no one who was there told me there is one -- and I
> did ask. Anyway, Abd pointed out that Penon described the configuration in
> one of the lawsuit documents. It is a little hard to understand Penon's
> English, so Abd added the comments in square brackets:
>
> Quote
>
> The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it cools
>> up to its condensation. *
>>
>> – flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet into the
>> shelter. It is located along the line of return of the water. between the
>> Plant of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat.
>
>
>
>> The cooling water is contained in a tank, placed inside the Plant, that
>> receives the water from an external plant [sic, “tank”].
>>
>
>
>> It is conveyed by pumps in [sic, “into”] the unit’s E-cat[s], where it is
>> heated to vaporize. The steam is collected in one tube of the steam line,
>> which conveys it to the outside of the shelter.
>>
>
>
>> The water is so recycled to the internal [sic, external] tank in a closed
>> loop. The water is distilled water.
>>
>
>
>> The external tank is connected with the internal tank, by a water line
>> and a floating valve, so that the level of water inside the internal tank
>> is maintained constant. The water flows from the external tank to the
>> internal tank by gravity. […]
>>
>
>
> * Note from Jed: "Cools up to its condensation" means it cools down until
> it condenses.
>
> This contradicts assertions by Peter Gluck.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>


-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[a.ashfield]

Jed,
I thought you said earlier that you had the plumbing layout but were not 
allowed to show it.  If so, there should be no doubt about whether there 
is  U in the system.


AA

On 2/20/2017 8:41 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
There has been some discussion here about the position of the flow 
meter in Rossi's configuration. I have information from Rossi showing 
it was located in the gravity return between the customer site and the 
reservoir. I do not think there was a U pipe but I cannot rule that 
out 100%. Nothing like that is shown and no one who was there told me 
there is one -- and I did ask. Anyway, Abd pointed out that Penon 
described the configuration in one of the lawsuit documents. It is a 
little hard to understand Penon's English, so Abd added the comments 
in square brackets:


Quote

The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it
cools up to its condensation. *

– flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet
into the shelter. It is located along the line of return of the
water. between the Plant of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat.

The cooling water is contained in a tank, placed inside the Plant,
that receives the water from an external plant [sic, “tank”].

It is conveyed by pumps in [sic, “into”] the unit’s E-cat[s],
where it is heated to vaporize. The steam is collected in one tube
of the steam line, which conveys it to the outside of the shelter.

The water is so recycled to the internal [sic, external] tank in a
closed loop. The water is distilled water.

The external tank is connected with the internal tank, by a water
line and a floating valve, so that the level of water inside the
internal tank is maintained constant. The water flows from the
external tank to the internal tank by gravity. […]



* Note from Jed: "Cools up to its condensation" means it cools down 
until it condenses.


This contradicts assertions by Peter Gluck.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Jones Beene]

Speaking of Penon, or should I say the absence of Penon, has anyone 
considered the rules of evidence in Federal Court for getting that ERV 
report into evidence?


As it stands now, Penon - who is the supposed expert who collected the 
data and wrote the report is unavailable to appear for deposition. This 
means that the data in the ERV report may not be entered into evidence 
at a trial, which means that the case will have to be dismissed... since 
the contract revolves directly around that report and its validity. But 
there are strict rules for admission of evidence, more so for criminal 
trials but also for civil and generally it would seem that Penon must 
appear in order to have his report allowed into evidence at all.


In fact, an eventual dismissal of the case, after maximizing the delays 
as long as possible - looks like a *desired outcome *from the Rossi 
perspective. He then can then blame both IH and the legal system as well 
as Krivit and so on. But the drama drags on - kind of a cross between 
Seinfeld, a "show about nothing" and The Leftovers, which is a warped 
take on what it means to have faith. Rossigate is about warped faith, no 
doubt there.


The one thing Rossi does not want is to risk a jury which rules against 
him. He would not be a believable witness with his ego and temperament, 
and a good lawyer will tear him to shreds on the stand. He expected to 
settle in the beginning (probably getting bad legal advice) - but IH 
refused and now Rossi cannot walk away without looking bad ... but 
without Penon, a favorable jury verdict is probably not possible due to 
the problem of getting the report admitted at all, not to mention the 
dubious details.


Bottom line: additional reliable information on the science of Ni-H will 
probably not be forthcoming to the public this year and further delay is 
anticipated. Rossi may be content to leave everything in limbo and claim 
to be a victim of greedy investors. That may work to his benefit for the 
next round in another location.


A nebulous outcome would allow him to look for new backers in Europe or 
Russia. The suckers who invested $20 million in Steorn - a completely 
obvious scam, are still out there.


But if a jury rules against him, the party is over. Do not hold your 
breath for a June trial.

[Vo]:Amazon Appstore – Parrot Teacher is Approved

[Frank Znidarsic]

App going live Friday.  I still needs some work and I don't have every device.
I will make it free in a week or so for you to try out.  I would appreciate 
some reviews.






-Original Message-
From: no-reply-appdev 
To: Frank Znidarsic 
Sent: Tue, Feb 21, 2017 6:41 am
Subject: Amazon Appstore – Parrot Teacher is Approved














 Login to developer portal  












Parrot Teacher


Version 1.0







Dear Frank,

Your recent submission, Parrot Teacher version 1.0, was successfully reviewed 
and will be going LIVE on the provided availability date Fri, 24 Feb 2017 with 
reduced device compatibility (app  failed on 1 devices).  A quick summary is 
published below:






Primary Validation









Pass







Amazon Content Policy Compatibilty









Pass







Functionality Validation








App failed on the following devices:















 (1/8) devices failed:









 

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Stephen Cooke]

Jed

So changing "external plant" to "external tank" and changing "internal tank " 
to "external tank" is correcting bad English... Uhhh okaayy ??

The internal tank was inside the E-Cat plant not the external one.

I'm not going to get drawn into childish bickering. I intend to wait from now 
on for real data not opinions and if that is not forthcoming then I wait with 
curiosity for the Judgement.


Sent from my iPhone

On 21 Feb 2017, at 16:12, Jed Rothwell 
> wrote:

Stephen Cooke > 
wrote:

Jed.. nice square bracketing.

As I said, that was added by Abd. I do not know where the original document is 
in the lawsuit papers.


What if we remove those... and assume the ERV's English is fine.

It isn't fine! It is difficult to understand.


Have you considered the external tank could be located at the external plant 
close to the condensor?

No, the diagram shows where it is. The condenser in the walled-off customer 
site. The reservoir is inside the shipping container. At least, that's what 
Rossi showed, and that is what I have heard.


In fact everything we say is speculation and can be interpreted how we want 
depending how we want to read it especially if we change the words someone says 
to support it.

It is not "speculation"! That's absurd. There are words directly from Rossi, 
uploaded in the lawsuit. If he is lying here it is a serious matter.

You have this directly from the horse's mouth yet you still don't believe it? 
How much proof can you ask for? Why would Rossi lie and tell the court the flow 
meter was installed in the gravity return pipe if that were not true?


I wait with anticipation for the flow diagram.

Why do you need it? Rossi and Penon already told you what is in it. If you 
don't believe what they wrote, why would you believe their diagram showing the 
same thing?

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Jed Rothwell]

Stephen Cooke  wrote:

Jed.. nice square bracketing.
>

As I said, that was added by Abd. I do not know where the original document
is in the lawsuit papers.



> What if we remove those... and assume the ERV's English is fine.
>

It isn't fine! It is difficult to understand.



> Have you considered the external tank could be located at the external
> plant close to the condensor?
>

No, the diagram shows where it is. The condenser in the walled-off customer
site. The reservoir is inside the shipping container. At least, that's what
Rossi showed, and that is what I have heard.



> In fact everything we say is speculation and can be interpreted how we
> want depending how we want to read it especially if we change the words
> someone says to support it.
>

It is not "speculation"! That's absurd. There are words directly from
Rossi, uploaded in the lawsuit. If he is lying here it is a serious matter.

You have this directly from the horse's mouth yet you still don't believe
it? How much proof can you ask for? Why would Rossi lie and tell the court
the flow meter was installed in the gravity return pipe if that were not
true?



> I wait with anticipation for the flow diagram.
>

Why do you need it? Rossi and Penon already told you what is in it. If you
don't believe what they wrote, why would you believe their diagram showing
the same thing?

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Jed Rothwell]

Peter Gluck  wrote:


> Question: do yu have information from Rossi or you have the piping
> diagram of the plant showing clearly and exactly (as position) where
> in the gravity return pipe was placed the flowmeter?
>

This information is from Rossi! He uploaded these statements by Penon. I
have this, and I also have a diagram showing the same thing, with the flow
meter in the gravity return pipe.

Are you saying you don't believe Rossi and Penon when they tell you where
they put the flow meter?



> Can you ke a look and tell where was placed the main pump (for 1500
> kg/hour- floating in the air or firmly placed on the ground?
>

There were many pumps, but they could not produce this much flow.



> In any case NOT measuring the flow of water which enters directly
> to the generators and using a 25 times undersized pipe for steam are fatal
> flaws and if your favorite author Murray got it right than he is the
> diamond witness for IH.
>

This statement is from Rossi and Penon, not Murray. THEY TOLD YOU where
they put the flow meter. It says:

The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it cools up
to its condensation – flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling
water inlet into the shelter.



> On the contrary if he errs than he is just a plant illiterate
> trying to find imaginary things- doing harm fo those who have paid him.
>

It is not imaginary. This is a document from Rossi filed in the lawsuit.



> If you have such a ardent desire to contradict my assertions, show the
> diagram and..finita la commedia!
>

Why do you need a diagram when you have text from Rossi describing this?
Why don't you believe Rossi?

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[Chris Zell]

Heavens to Occam’s Razor…… you suggest two surprising, unknown effects at the 
root of this…..  If a nuclear aspect is added, I would think that it goes back 
to a withdrawal of motion or its rectification somehow.   We would tap latent 
heat motion and also tap electron spin motion.  I really would enjoy 
visualizing this as movement but that’s just my leaning.

From: bobcook39...@gmail.com [mailto:bobcook39...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 5:20 PM
To: Chris Zell ; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

If the nuclear potential energy source is tapped, then that would greatly 
supplement the latent heat which is the phonic energy you note.

Bob

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Chris Zell
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 11:55 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE



From: bobcook39...@gmail.com 
[mailto:bobcook39...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 1:56 PM
To: Chris Zell >; 
vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

Chris-

I have understood that phonons are “virtual” particles that represent a 
localized energy in a crystal lattice made up of kinetic energy and potential 
energy in a resonant stable dynamic state.  It is primarily thought to be an 
electric field that couples the nuclei and electrons in the lattice—primarily 
the valence electrons.  The nuclei oscillate around some mid position in the 
lattice and valence  electrons change their orbital spin states reflecting the 
motion of the nuclei.

What confuses me about that explanation is the energy of the ‘jitter’ of the 
nuclei and heat.  Are they the same thing or somehow different? If the same,  
then the excess energy claimed can only be no more greater than some part of 
the latent heat of the slab/object – and not some earthshaking vortex swirl as 
reported by Sweet.

Re: [Vo]:LENR Theoryplex, discussions some info

[a.ashfield]

Peter,
Thanks for posting Ed Storms comment.  I find it the best summary of the 
situation that I have seen so far.


I find the basic problem is with the Patent Office.   By making it so 
difficult to get patents related to LENR they have prevented the 
knowledge from becoming public.  Rossi has had no choice but to try and 
keep details secret.


 I think the way forward is most likely that Rossi will start selling 
the reactors.  I think the Tiger E-Cat works even if we don't know the 
COP, but the real hope of L:ENR becoming accepted this year is the tiny 
QuarkX.  Pity that so little is known about it.


AA

On 2/20/2017 3:27 PM, Peter Gluck wrote:


http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2017/02/feb-20-2017-lenr-theoryplex-discussions.html

peter
--
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Stephen Cooke]

Jed.. nice square bracketing.

What if we remove those... and assume the ERV's English is fine.

Have you considered the external tank could be located at the external plant 
close to the condensor?

In fact everything we say is speculation and can be interpreted how we want 
depending how we want to read it especially if we change the words someone says 
to support it.

I wait with anticipation for the flow diagram.

On 21 Feb 2017, at 10:47, Peter Gluck 
> wrote:

This was dicussed already twice but DeJavu is a reality (see
my blog today about the psychological phenomenon).
Question: do yu have information from Rossi or you have the piping
diagram of the plant showing clearly and exactly (as position) where
in the gravity return pipe was placed the flowmeter?
Can you ke a look and tell where was placed the main pump (for 1500
kg/hour- floating in the air or firmly placed on the ground?

In any case NOT measuring the flow of water which enters directly
to the generators and using a 25 times undersized pipe for steam are fatal 
flaws and if your favorite author Murray got it right than he is the diamond 
witness for IH. On the contrary if he errs than he is just a plant illiterate
trying to find imaginary things- doing harm fo those who have paid him.

If you have such a ardent desire to contradict my assertions, show the diagram 
and..finita la commedia!
It happens I know steam is able to condense from practice and books.

peter

ps Do you have amnesia regarding the persons who all stated the
flowmeter was used to quadruple the flow? You tell sensational things and we 
have to believe you

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Jed Rothwell 
> wrote:
There has been some discussion here about the position of the flow meter in 
Rossi's configuration. I have information from Rossi showing it was located in 
the gravity return between the customer site and the reservoir. I do not think 
there was a U pipe but I cannot rule that out 100%. Nothing like that is shown 
and no one who was there told me there is one -- and I did ask. Anyway, Abd 
pointed out that Penon described the configuration in one of the lawsuit 
documents. It is a little hard to understand Penon's English, so Abd added the 
comments in square brackets:

Quote

The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it cools up to 
its condensation. *

– flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet into the 
shelter. It is located along the line of return of the water. between the Plant 
of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat.

The cooling water is contained in a tank, placed inside the Plant, that 
receives the water from an external plant [sic, “tank”].

It is conveyed by pumps in [sic, “into”] the unit’s E-cat[s], where it is 
heated to vaporize. The steam is collected in one tube of the steam line, which 
conveys it to the outside of the shelter.

The water is so recycled to the internal [sic, external] tank in a closed loop. 
The water is distilled water.

The external tank is connected with the internal tank, by a water line and a 
floating valve, so that the level of water inside the internal tank is 
maintained constant. The water flows from the external tank to the internal 
tank by gravity. […]


* Note from Jed: "Cools up to its condensation" means it cools down until it 
condenses.

This contradicts assertions by Peter Gluck.

- Jed




--
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Peter Gluck]

This was dicussed already twice but DeJavu is a reality (see
my blog today about the psychological phenomenon).
Question: do yu have information from Rossi or you have the piping
diagram of the plant showing clearly and exactly (as position) where
in the gravity return pipe was placed the flowmeter?
Can you ke a look and tell where was placed the main pump (for 1500
kg/hour- floating in the air or firmly placed on the ground?

In any case NOT measuring the flow of water which enters directly
to the generators and using a 25 times undersized pipe for steam are fatal
flaws and if your favorite author Murray got it right than he is the
diamond witness for IH. On the contrary if he errs than he is just a plant
illiterate
trying to find imaginary things- doing harm fo those who have paid him.

If you have such a ardent desire to contradict my assertions, show the
diagram and..finita la commedia!
It happens I know steam is able to condense from practice and books.

peter

ps Do you have amnesia regarding the persons who all stated the
flowmeter was used to quadruple the flow? You tell sensational things and
we have to believe you

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> There has been some discussion here about the position of the flow meter
> in Rossi's configuration. I have information from Rossi showing it was
> located in the gravity return between the customer site and the reservoir.
> I do not think there was a U pipe but I cannot rule that out 100%. Nothing
> like that is shown and no one who was there told me there is one -- and I
> did ask. Anyway, Abd pointed out that Penon described the configuration in
> one of the lawsuit documents. It is a little hard to understand Penon's
> English, so Abd added the comments in square brackets:
>
> Quote
>
> The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it cools
>> up to its condensation. *
>>
>> – flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet into the
>> shelter. It is located along the line of return of the water. between the
>> Plant of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat.
>
>
>
>> The cooling water is contained in a tank, placed inside the Plant, that
>> receives the water from an external plant [sic, “tank”].
>>
>
>
>> It is conveyed by pumps in [sic, “into”] the unit’s E-cat[s], where it is
>> heated to vaporize. The steam is collected in one tube of the steam line,
>> which conveys it to the outside of the shelter.
>>
>
>
>> The water is so recycled to the internal [sic, external] tank in a closed
>> loop. The water is distilled water.
>>
>
>
>> The external tank is connected with the internal tank, by a water line
>> and a floating valve, so that the level of water inside the internal tank
>> is maintained constant. The water flows from the external tank to the
>> internal tank by gravity. […]
>>
>
>
> * Note from Jed: "Cools up to its condensation" means it cools down until
> it condenses.
>
> This contradicts assertions by Peter Gluck.
>
> - Jed
>
>


-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com