Re: [Vo]:Re: Defkalion GT send video of internal testing
I must agree. I was a little underwhelmed when I saw that after the way DGT were going on about their high tech lab etc. On 30/01/12 11:42, Mattia Rizzi wrote: LOL This is the high technology lab of Defkalion as said by Jed’s experts? From: Alain Sepeda Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 11:47 AM To: Vortex List Subject: Re: [Vo]:FYI: Defkalion GT send video of internal testing finally I've see this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuRGpRZ1t5E some photos, few seconds of testing phases... blair witch style... I've noticed the long thin pipes for H, (for saferty I imagine). the small rheostat... not a show. 2012/1/30 Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com from defkalion GT You can watch some shots from our internal testing on Hyperion "bare" reactors in one of our labs at =Thank you for your attention I could not see the video (thanks to Websense) tell me if it is interesting. normally it should be boring. but who know, maybe it is a new episode of Madagascar.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's Best Chance
Here is the link to that device http://www.ergenics.com/page22.htm On 25/01/12 07:59, Alain Sepeda wrote: Periodinc dumping of H seems not true for me. the tank would be empty quickly, and it would be dangerous. DGT clearly said that no "Vent" is done, except in catastrophic situation, that induce shutdown and maintenance. however maybe is there a reversible storage (I have seen here a pattented device to heat catalystic exhaust cleaner), that allow to absorbe or free H stored inside an hydrid, or alike... another simple solution could be a mechanical piston to tune pressure quickly. I see three solenoid valve controls for hydrogen in/out and the control circuitry which indicates clearly to me that hydrogen is being periodically dumped and refilled by computer control.
Re: [Vo]:University of Bologna Terminates Relationship With Rossi
BTW, you need to put the vortex email address (vortex-l@eskimo.com) in the reply-to field of your email client otherwise replies to your questions don't go the mailing list but only you. On 25/01/12 11:45, zer tte wrote: Hi, Can we establish a link between rossi's related annoucements and "jonp" downtimes ? How long do those downtimes usually last ? (i'm not a regular visitor of jonp but i guess the vortex collective has the answer) Thank you.
Re: [Vo]:LEAD shielding - a dual purpose?
On 25/01/12 15:41, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson wrote: Somewhere in a recent collection of Vort posts was a thread or two touching on speculation (evidence?) that the source of the massive amount of exothermic heat generated from Rossi's eCats is actually due to gamma radiation being emitted from the reactor core. It is the generated gamma radiation (which itself is not necessary hot in the thermal sense) that subsequently bombards the surrounding lead shielding, thus HEATING up the lead. That came from Rossi's recent radio interview apparently. I only listened to the interview once and didn't pick up on that but Aussie Guy mentioned it in his summarized list of key points from that interview which he posted here. I questioned it at the time as it struck me by surprise as I expected all the heat to come solely from the actual reaction.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's Best Chance
I think Rossi's best chance is to stop giving out contradicting information / statements. A couple of weeks ago the home e-cat was going to ship at the end of this year, then yesterday he states that it won't be for another 12-18 months. What happened? There is the continuing inconclusive specification of the home e-cat, not to mention all the issues with the 1MW plant. It strikes me that he seems to be in a bit of panic mode as he's realised that DGT may indeed have something and beat him to market with a superiorly engineered product. Rossi really needs to get a team of professional engineers to take his products and engineer them to refined commercial products. That is assuming he hasn't already got a team doing this. If he has there is not much evidence of it. As for Ampenergo, it still exists and is still active http://www2.sos.state.oh.us/pls/bsqry/f?p=100:7:211773132719711::NO:7:P7_CHARTER_NUM:1852164. Why the e-mail address doesn't work is anyones guess. Saying that has anyone managed to get in contact with Hydrofusion? I sent a couple of e-mails in the past and never got a reply or any acknowledgement of them receiving my e-mail. It's things like this that fuel the sceptics and the scam rumours. What is surprising, assuming DGT have what they say they have, is how quick DGT managed to come up with their own reactor technology. If no information transfer occurred between Rossi and DGT as Rossi states (which I don't believe) then DGT really pulled one out of the hat. I'm surprised no one else has managed to replicate yet if DGT managed it without any IP transfer from Rossi. In a way I feel sorry for Rossi as he has possibly found the answer to clean cheap energy but his personality may prevent him from actually being the first to market it commercially. Rossi is his own worse enemy. It may be as Jed said that he could be doing this deliberately to keep people off his back and to keep competitors from homing in. On 24/01/12 12:18, Vorl Bek wrote: Wolf Fischer wrote: there have been two different news lately: The first one being that Ampenergo seemingly has gone "inactive" (although I don't know what this exactly means, if this is even the company which is related to Leonardo, how this would affect Rossi, etc.): http://ecatnews.com/?p=1897 Second: The University of Bologna has seemingly terminated the contract with Rossi, as Krivit has posted: http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2012/01/24/university-of-bologna-terminates-relationship-with-rossi/ It seems to me Rossi's best chance is to hold conference calls with mom-and-pop investors and ask them to contribute $100 so that Rossi can do the last bit of engineering needed to stabilize the e-cat and allow him to run it for more than 4 hours. In return, they will get a $500 credit on whatever e-cat model they decide to buy, whenever the model gets made. The way it looks now, Rossi's enterprise is tottering, but he seems to have a number of Believers who would probably fork over the $100 or even more.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's Best Chance
From what I understand with regards to DGT's licensing, is that the license fee gives you all the necessary info to start the production. So all you need to do is find a premises of sufficient size and then DGT will give the blue prints for the manufacturing plant. what is not clear is if the license fee also includes the tools and machinery in the plant. I think (just my hunch) DGT were working on their reactor before the agreement with Rossi fell apart. From their dealing with Rossi they probably discovered that they wouldn't be able to work with him and that he most likely would fail to deliver on the terms of their agreement, i.e. demo a device running for 48hours. They probably kept close to Rossi and went along with him all the while they could find out as much as they could about the workings of his reactor and at any opportunity steal his IP. Again this is just my thinking. I find it hard to believe they magically developed their own reactor that quickly (when others are still trying) and have supposedly got it reliable and producing high temp steam without any IP transfer from Rossi. They must have got the secret or seed from Rossi that allowed them to proceed so quickly. It still remains to be seen how quick DGT get their product to market though and it all depends on them getting their certification. On 24/01/12 13:00, Wolf Fischer wrote: Probably Rossi has some NI persons on the controlling front...? If Rossis statement about production facility planning is true there must be other engineers involved (although the thought of Rossi doing every single piece of engineering on himself makes me laugh :)) Perhaps (my theory): Defkalion started gathering professionals and therefore working on their own reactor from the beginning of August, whereas Rossi started the more professionalized work after the "successful" 1MW plant test (at least it seems like this to me). Therefore Defkalion might have a 3 to 4 month lead on Rossi? However, what interests me then, is: How long until one can buy a Hyperion? (given that the certification runs fine for Defkalion). As they only sell licenses the licensee has to first start developing a concept on what the production looks like. This in turn might Rossi give some lead back, doesn't it? Wolf I think Rossi's best chance is to stop giving out contradicting information / statements. A couple of weeks ago the home e-cat was going to ship at the end of this year, then yesterday he states that it won't be for another 12-18 months. What happened? There is the continuing inconclusive specification of the home e-cat, not to mention all the issues with the 1MW plant. It strikes me that he seems to be in a bit of panic mode as he's realised that DGT may indeed have something and beat him to market with a superiorly engineered product. Rossi really needs to get a team of professional engineers to take his products and engineer them to refined commercial products. That is assuming he hasn't already got a team doing this. If he has there is not much evidence of it. As for Ampenergo, it still exists and is still active http://www2.sos.state.oh.us/pls/bsqry/f?p=100:7:211773132719711::NO:7:P7_CHARTER_NUM:1852164. Why the e-mail address doesn't work is anyones guess. Saying that has anyone managed to get in contact with Hydrofusion? I sent a couple of e-mails in the past and never got a reply or any acknowledgement of them receiving my e-mail. It's things like this that fuel the sceptics and the scam rumours. What is surprising, assuming DGT have what they say they have, is how quick DGT managed to come up with their own reactor technology. If no information transfer occurred between Rossi and DGT as Rossi states (which I don't believe) then DGT really pulled one out of the hat. I'm surprised no one else has managed to replicate yet if DGT managed it without any IP transfer from Rossi. In a way I feel sorry for Rossi as he has possibly found the answer to clean cheap energy but his personality may prevent him from actually being the first to market it commercially. Rossi is his own worse enemy. It may be as Jed said that he could be doing this deliberately to keep people off his back and to keep competitors from homing in. On 24/01/12 12:18, Vorl Bek
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's Best Chance
I think you're right Jones. Once DGT have their verified test results published Rossi will be under a lot of pressure as all attention will then be diverted to DGT and there success. Rossi may just realise this (with a little help from his wife) and try do another test before DGT have a chance to announce any results. It's his only chance. On 24/01/12 15:03, Jones Beene wrote: Thank you, Robert. This is essentially what I have been saying for many weeks: Rossi has the ability to achieve a short run of nearly infinite COP 6-8 hours, after which there is inevitable quiescence. That is both his problem and his ace-in-the-hole. He has not shown an ability to move beyond that stalemate. Problem is thousands of man-hours of high quality engineering are now needed, and he cannot come close to doing it alone, BUT the biggest monetary value for him would only be possible if he could do it alone. However, if he could have done it months ago, then DGT would never have split, and Rossi would have adequate capital, even if not the entire 100 million. Now he is essentially penniless and cannot even give the University a pittance for desperately needed help. His time for monetizing even this slight developmental advantage is running out. Once DGT puts on a convincing show-and-tell, Rossi is nearly toast. That could happen this week. They may succeed with what is an inferior ratio of gain. Since they have never claimed self-running - this is indicative of having success through another route that does not involve a few of Rossis secrets. Rossis wife is smart enough to see this. Rossis ego is too big. However, his wife will win this argument and Rossi will act like it was his idea. It is said this particular family dynamic is common in Italy. Look for a Rossi independent demo before the end of February, where among other things - he just admits the E-Cat will go quiescent at some time, but in this demo he does show the significantly long unpowered mode (except for the RF) which removes the possibility of a chemical reaction. Jones From:Robert Lynn It wouldn't even matter if it only ran for 6 hours before falling into quiescence, clearincontrovertibleindependent validation of powerful LENR would still have the world beating a path to his door to give him millions. Realistically Rossi is in the game of selling a developmental advantage for a massive new field that will advance far ahead of his understanding within months or years. It is naive for him to try to sell a commercial product - he doesn't have the skills or resources to match what bigger players will do in a year or two (see how far ahead Defkalion appear to be now if their latest claims are true). If he doesn't realize that soon then he will ultimately be left poorer and probably embittered by his bad decisions.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's Best Chance
The issue I have with with Rossi's device is the high electricity demand required to start off the E-Cat and the length of time required to get it going and then the periodic electric demand to keep it going. In comparison DGT's system seems draw much lower power to start up and starts much faster. Do you think that's because DGT have a better / more efficient heater or their reactor fuel has some catalyst that kick starts the reaction faster. What sort of temperatures are required to start the reaction? On 24/01/12 15:27, Jones Beene wrote: Wolf, This comes under the category of puffery and it probably relates to net gain, if there is any truth to it. Obviously if one can achieve lots of heat without input COP is infinite. However, when you factor in the quiescent period and the startup delay then the average over an extended period could be COP-6. In the case of DGT, they could be saying that COP=20 is the best gain ever seen, and they may want to downplay the fact that the average over time, is far less. We await real data, in either case. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's Best Chance
Thanks for the explanation. I knew DGT were using a heat transfer fluid but didn't realise they were preheating it to assist with the start up. "...The lack of steady gain is part of the larger problem of quiescence. The active material goes in and out gain-mode sequentially. (we have a possible QM explanation for that oddity)..." Is this problem of "quiescence" verified or something you been informed of? I've not seen it mentioned anywhere. One would think Rossi would monitor what DGT are up to and see if he can learn anything but he seems completely convinced they have nothing or at least publicly that is the impression he is giving. He could learn a few engineering tips just by looking at the Hyperion spec sheet. I think Rossi may be hurting from the whole DGT affair and through blind spite is dismissing everything relating to DGT. Just to be clear, I'm not a sceptic. I actually believe Rossi and DGT have something but I'm keeping my feet firmly planted and will question things that don't seem to add up. On 24/01/12 16:22, Jones Beene wrote: From:Energy Liberator: The issue I have with Rossi's device is the high electricity demand required to start off the E-Cat You may recall that DGT uses a heat transfer fluid, not water. One can employ a reservoir of hot fluid for faster startup, and this bulk reservoir can serve many units. Thus the need for electric input is mollified. On vortex, a year ago we were suggesting that Rossi should do this (use a dedicated heat transfer fluid), since one can store heat like this with a low vapor pressure at high temperature, possible near or higher than the threshold for startup. With water you cannot do this - YET Rossi still does not get it. This is why he needs the strong engineering help that he is NOT getting. DGT almost immediately picked up on this, which indicates that they are either monitoring this forum or had come to the conclusion independently. Typically with other positive results in Ni-H, which have been openly reported in the USA (Ahern) - the gain is in the form of a temperature inversion in which there is (X) input and the output is a multiple lets say it is 6*(X). Note that Ahern was getting only about 1.2(X) that is: until recently when we found a commercial nanopowder may have pushed the multiple way up (Sorry the report of that advance is not ready for publication yet and subject to many more runs). And thank Zeus that MY is not here to pounce on this bit of delay in publication. Anyway, early on, the skeptics hit on this need for constant input very hard - as being non-reconcilable with the claimed large gain, since after startup, any large gain should eliminate the need for further input. They are both right and wrong. They would be correct if there was steady gain over time in the reactor - but this does not happen with a few grams of reactant ! The lack of steady gain is part of the larger problem of quiescence. The active material goes in and out gain-mode sequentially. (we have a possible QM explanation for that oddity). Get it? I hope we do not have to re-convince the new-comers to Vo of the fact that this need for some kind of forced continuity (or stable input power) is indeed reconcilable with strong gain. It is part of the process and it is new physics. You will not find much on this in current literature but I am prepared to defend it once again if there are continuing doubts. Jones
Re: [Vo]:REMOVING RULE2 VIOLATORS, 'subscribe' blocked.
Thanks Bill Although I'm new to this mailing list and haven't contributed much, I still enjoy reading the opinions, ideas and news from those more knowledgeable then myself. I must confess that I'm here mainly for the Rossi / LENR threads though. It was becoming impossible and time consuming to filter the repetitive garbage from the real posts as they pretty much polluted all the threads. I have to say though it's been deathly quiet here today. On 23/01/12 09:48, William Beaty wrote: Vtx thoughtcriminals. "Scoffing" and anti-fringe behavior, but didn't leave in disgust as suggested. Ungood! Time for Periodic Cleansing. removed: "Mary" "Yugo" effwivakeef Dusty Bradshaw Shaun Taylor Vortex traffic temporarily suspended. Getting everyone's attention. I'll leave "subscribe" turned off for weeks/months, "unsubscribe" remains active. Email me directly for problems, suggestions. (( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
Re: [Vo]:lanr.org
There is also lanr.com, which may or may not be related but I assume it is related as they too say they will be live at the end of January. They're talking about producing and selling reactor cores. -- LANR Lattice Assisted Nuclear Reactions New site is in development and will be published by the end of january. We are currently in the initial phase of development. We intend to start production on multiple types of reactor cores by the end of 2012. The reactors will be cheap and may be available to everybody depending on permit requirements. It is optimistic, but the technology is fairly straightforward based on our understanding. On 20/01/12 13:17, Andre Blum wrote: Late last year there was a somewhat exciting announcement somewhere, I guess in a comments section of a blog, of another startup (nordic, I believe), at lanr.org. If I look at that website now, it says: = LANR Lattice Assisted Nuclear Reactions - Also known as Low Energy Nuclear Reactions New site is in development and will be published by the end of january. This site is intended to become a discussion forum for people interested in and engaged in LANR projects. = Am I mistaking, or did this initially say something quite more ambitious than becoming a discussion forum? Andre
Re: [Vo]:Interesting new video from ecat.com
This is what I said earlier. I don't recall Rossi ever saying that the container was shipped. The seems to have been assumed once Rossi said the customer was happy and the plant was sold. On 19/01/12 08:44, Wolf Fischer wrote: I searched a little bit online. I can find some websites claiming that the Ecat was delivered to the customer. However I am not capable of finding a statement from Rossi where he says that the plant had been delivered to the customer. Just that the customer is happy and so on... Wolf I think, this is the first time for me that Rossi was caught in a direct lie... Or is it just me, remembering Rossi saying that the container had been shipped? Of course this also sheds some light on all the insider sources ;) Or Rossi is lieing again... Wolf -- Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet. Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net schrieb: This is comical! Ya gotta laugh. So, did Rossi confirm what the Collective seems to be converging to??? Y Thnk!!! BTW, Thanks go to Patrick Ellul for taking the direct route, and just asking the horse! Good job Patrick! -Mark From: Robert Leguillon [mailto:robert.leguil...@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 10:03 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Interesting new video from ecat.com You guys must have missed the post by Patrick Ellul: 1. Italo R. January 18th, 2012 at 2:02 PM Dear Ing. Rossi, I have watched this interview with you in Bologna realized on the 12th of January 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odkfAjqA4pc In it appears a 1 MW container. May I ask you if that container is the same used in the last test with ing. Fioravanti and already sold to your customer? Thank you. Kind regards, Italo R. 2. Andrea Rossi January 18th, 2012 at 6:44 PM Dear Italo R. Yes, it is the same: we are still working on it with National Instruments and with the Customer. It will take another month before it will be ready. Warm Regards, A.R. - the floor strings are a moot point...someone must have mopped
Re: [Vo]:Interesting new video from ecat.com
AG I agree that the plant was not moved. I was referring to Jones' comment on how could Rossi supposedly be at the customer's facility in the US the afternoon before the interview. If the customer's facility is in Italy then that would not be difficult. On 19/01/12 12:09, Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: EL, The plant has not moved, despite what has been said. The images confirm that. AG On 19/01/2012 6:08 PM, Energy Liberator wrote: Jones Isn't it possible that the US customer's facility is in Italy? If the customer is military, as speculated to be, then it's possible that they are using one of their bases in Italy to monitor and deal with Rossi and the 1MW plant. The US have a base near Vicensa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Army_installations_in_Italy) which is only 150Km from Bologna so it's quite possible that Rossi was at the 'customer's facility' the day before the interview. Not saying it's so but just saying we don't know everything.
Re: [Vo]:Interesting new video from ecat.com
That stains on the floor could be water (or another fluid) which evaporated leaving no stain. Admittedly they look dark for water but may be a product of the exposure. So I don't think it's conclusive. On 19/01/12 03:24, Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: Daniel, Try this image of the non and stained floors. https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/shO4Ub6pXlC5p1kWhUIZ89MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink AG On 19/01/2012 1:26 PM, Daniel Rocha wrote: I cannot see colors well, I have some color blindness, deuteranomaly. Can you enhance the image?
Re: [Vo]:Interesting new video from ecat.com
But was it actually Rossi that said that or was it interpreted as that by a reporter, blogger, or some other party? I find that so much gets misinterpreted and misreported due to reports not always originating from original sources that it's difficult to keep track of what's really true and what's been misreported or lost in translations. I don't recall him actually ever saying that the plant shipped to the customer. I accept that I may be wrong. If you have a link, please post it. I'll need to do a search to see if I can find anything. On 19/01/12 12:13, Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: EL, Rossi stated the plant did ship to his US customer and he attended to do the install. AG On 19/01/2012 5:45 PM, Energy Liberator wrote: Perhaps the original 1MW plant never shipped to the customer's location as the customer wanted it fixed before shipping, i.e. the leaking gaskets, the control system etc. As I recall Rossi never said the unit was delivered to the customer's premises although I could be wrong on this.
Re: [Vo]:Interesting new video from ecat.com
OK, I can't argue with that. On 19/01/12 12:56, Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: Wolf, On 30 Oct 2011, Andrea Rossi said the 1 MW plant had been shipped to the customer and he was building the next 1 MW plant in a new container. http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510cpage=27#comment-106637 Andrea Rossi October 30th, 2011 at 2:15 PM Dear Luke Mortensen: 1- yes 2- yes 3- yes. gaskets 4- different 5- Miami (Fl), Boston (Ma), Manchester (N.H.) Warm Regards, A.R. Luke Mortensen October 30th, 2011 at 12:54 PM Dear Andrea, 1. Is the 1MW container gone? 2. Have you started building another 1MW in another container? 3. Any improvements you want in version 2? 4. Will the buyer of the next 1MW container be the same customer or a different customer? 5. What city will you be working (hiring) in the US? Best wishes, Luke Mortensen AG On 19/01/2012 10:38 PM, Wolf Fischer wrote: AG, Can you give us a link where he said that? I can't find any except for some websites (not directly related to Rossi) which say so. Wolf
Re: [Vo]:Interesting new video from ecat.com
This was my point earlier. Many things can be misunderstood or misinterpreted because of Rossi's use and understanding of English. I deal with a lot of foreign people in English and am used to how they phrase things in English or their understanding of English. It's also possible Rossi was expecting the plant to be shipped when he made that comment after which he and the customer decided to leave the plant where it was and work on it in Bologna. On 19/01/12 13:01, andre_vor...@blums.nl wrote: English is not my native language, but I think (only) when interpreted very liberally, "gone" can be interpreted as "sold". (like in: "going... going... gone"). Andre Blum On 01/19/2012 08:56 AM, Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: Wolf, On 30 Oct 2011, Andrea Rossi said the 1 MW plant had been shipped to the customer and he was building the next 1 MW plant in a new container. http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510cpage=27#comment-106637 Andrea Rossi October 30th, 2011 at 2:15 PM Dear Luke Mortensen: 1- yes 2- yes 3- yes. gaskets 4- different 5- Miami (Fl), Boston (Ma), Manchester (N.H.) Warm Regards, A.R. Luke Mortensen October 30th, 2011 at 12:54 PM Dear Andrea, 1. Is the 1MW container gone? 2. Have you started building another 1MW in another container? 3. Any improvements you want in version 2? 4. Will the buyer of the next 1MW container be the same customer or a different customer? 5. What city will you be working (hiring) in the US? Best wishes, Luke Mortensen AG On 19/01/2012 10:38 PM, Wolf Fischer wrote: AG, Can you give us a link where he said that? I can't find any except for some websites (not directly related to Rossi) which say so. Wolf
Re: [Vo]:Interesting new video from ecat.com
I agree. It does look as though Rossi is being contradictive in his statements. Maybe we should just ask him directly. I bet ecat.com didn't post that interview now. Look at the can of worms it's opened. On 19/01/12 13:09, Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: The issue is: Rossi says the plant is gone (shipped). Rossi says he is attending the customer's US site to do the install. Rossi say he is working with the customer and NI and is making amazing progress. Rossi says it has not been returned by the customer. A video from 12 Jan shows it is still in the original site and has not moved. Rossi says the pant in the video is the 1st plant and will be ready in 1 month. Go figure. AG On 19/01/2012 10:49 PM, Energy Liberator wrote: AG I agree that the plant was not moved. I was referring to Jones' comment on how could Rossi supposedly be at the customer's facility in the US the afternoon before the interview. If the customer's facility is in Italy then that would not be difficult.
Re: [Vo]:Interesting new video from ecat.com
AG If he is working on fixing leaking gaskets then he doesn't need the whole plant working so perhaps they are using the unit on the table for stress testing. Likewise NI may not require the whole plant working to do their work. There is also the possibility that this unit is only a test bed and that the work NI and the other engineers are doing to improve the plant is done at the factory. The more I think about it, it is unlikely that Rossi is building the plants at the location that the interview was filmed and Oct 28 test was held. It just doesn't have the space and facilities from what I can see. If he needs to be building 13 plants he'd want enough space where he can have a number of plants being built in parallel. I also think that he is keeping the location of the manufacturing secret so he definitely not using this location for production. It's obvious that there is not much going on in that workshop. On 19/01/12 13:35, Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: EL, Work on it? How? Nothing is there to test it under load. How can you test for leaks with no water circulation system in place and no heat load to generate steam and increase the pressure? I'm just an engineer, so I may be wrong but I don't think so. AG
Re: [Vo]:Interesting new video from ecat.com
I believe this is probably the most likely case. On 19/01/12 13:58, Vorl Bek wrote: Maybe the container in the video and picture is a demo, like the ones in car showrooms. The one the customer actually buys is the one from the lot or the one being manufactured that is shipped in a week later.
Re: [Vo]:Interesting new video from ecat.com
I still don't think that was spelled out clear enough to ensure an non ambiguous answer. You didn't specifically ask if that was the container that he is working on for the customer with NI. It's possible that the footage is recent, the container was the one from the test and is still there today but is not the container that was shipped / delivered to the customer. Let's see how he replies. It would be nice to clear this up. On 19/01/12 14:19, Andre Blum wrote: FYI, I just queued to following question for moderation on JONP: Dear Mr Rossi, Following some discussion on vortex-l about the jan 12 interview on youtube, where it seems to show the 1 MW container in exactly the same spot as on the 28th of October: (1) Is that recent footage? Is the container still there today? (2) How does that relate to your earlier statement that the container was shipped? ..we were just wondering. Good luck! Andre
Re: [Vo]:Interesting new video from ecat.com
AG, Not that it changes anything, but why do you expect the facility to be heated by the e-cat? Rossi said that the facility that he was heating with the e-cat was sold to raise funds to take this project further. What is clear is that we just don't know what is going on. I hope Rossi clears this up otherwise it's going to throw a bad light over him and his work. On 19/01/12 14:46, Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: Daniel, It is also obvious that there are no E-Cats heating that facility in Italy. You may ask is heating needed in a Florida E-Cat manufacturing plant? There are no coolant circulation systems nor heat exchangers attached to the 12 Jan imaged BBB. How can there be any testing of the BBB in operation? There was a single Fat Cat unit in test mode in the next room, with a prototype home E-Cat on the next table. This sure seems like Rossi's Italian RD centre that he talks of. AG
Re: [Vo]:Interesting new video from ecat.com
Whilst that confirms that the plant never left the facility, seeing the facility so empty and devoid of activity certainly doesn't look like a there is much research, or optimisation work going on with NI or any other partner engineers. Of course it is possible that the work is going on at another location on a couple of sample fat cats removed from the 1MW plant. For all we know NI have a couple of fat cats sitting in their workshop in the US to play with. We can only wait and see. I do admit that it is a little disappointing though and I'm sure ecat.com didn't expect this sort of backlash from their video. On 19/01/12 15:27, Frank Acland wrote: I emailed Andrea Rossi this morning about this issue and recieved the following supply: " Of course there has been a misunderstanding due to my bad translation. The 1 MW plant has been accepted and sold ( hence "gone") but it remained in our factory of Bologna for fixings and for National Instruments improvements of the control systems. Warm Regards, A.R." On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: EL, Yup. The BBB never moved, was never gone, was never shipped, was never returned, is not currently operational and is not in testing despite what Rossi has claimed. Also that facility is not heated with an E-Cat. Is there another facility that is making fully functional E-Cat, has a production line, has an advanced RD facility and the US customer has one of these units? Maybe. But we have no proof of that. All we need is ONE photograph of another E-Cat on a production. Rossi claims to be making another 13. Why not post a photo of that line? Will that give away trade secrets? Instead what we get is a video of the 28 Oct BBB. Is that all Rossi has to show? If so I have wasted a lot of my and my companies time and money. AG
Re: [Vo]:More home E-Cat data announced
That to me looks like it was from Jan 13 2009, not a few days ago. On 18/01/12 13:05, Paul Calvo wrote: what do you make of this statement by Joe Zawodny / NASA a few days ago? http://joe.zawodny.com/index.php/2009/01/13/capture-the-moment/ == On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=563cpage=14#comment-171562 * Andrea Rossi January 17th, 2012 at 4:41 PM http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=563cpage=14#comment-171562 Dear Mark Szlazak: It will be cm 30 x 30 x 12 circa. Not able to make electricity yet. Able to make heat and sanitary water ( this is a new of today: resolved also this problem). Warm Regards, A.R. http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=473cpage=17#comment-171368 * Andrea Rossi January 17th, 2012 at 10:04 AM http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=473cpage=17#comment-171368 Dear Christian Scholl: The principle is this, yes, but it will be simplyfied. Warm Regards, A.R. * Christian SCHOLL http://www.cem-expert.fr/index.cfm January 16th, 2012 at 11:19 PM http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=473cpage=17#comment-171038 Dear Andrea Rossi, Domestic E-Cat will be delivered with differents heat exchanger: boiler for hot water, heat exchanger for hot air, full cupper electrode to replace steatite water heater ? Best regards, C.SCHOLL
Re: [Vo]:More home E-Cat data announced
It's remarkable how quick things change with this. In a previous post on JONP a few days ago, Rossi specified a size of 40x40x40, now it's significantly smaller. It's great that he can now provide hot water too as that increases the appeal even further allowing for complete replacement of conventional gas / oil boilers in the home. I'm not familiar with how UL certification works but wouldn't these changes, especially such a size change, affect the certification process? I'm assuming the Rossi is only getting certification for the core reactor unit and everything else will be 'bolt on' afterwards. On 17/01/12 23:38, Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=563cpage=14#comment-171562 * Andrea Rossi January 17th, 2012 at 4:41 PM http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=563cpage=14#comment-171562 Dear Mark Szlazak: It will be cm 30 x 30 x 12 circa. Not able to make electricity yet. Able to make heat and sanitary water ( this is a new of today: resolved also this problem). Warm Regards, A.R. http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=473cpage=17#comment-171368 * Andrea Rossi January 17th, 2012 at 10:04 AM http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=473cpage=17#comment-171368 Dear Christian Scholl: The principle is this, yes, but it will be simplyfied. Warm Regards, A.R. * Christian SCHOLL http://www.cem-expert.fr/index.cfm January 16th, 2012 at 11:19 PM http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=473cpage=17#comment-171038 Dear Andrea Rossi, Domestic E-Cat will be delivered with differents heat exchanger: boiler for hot water, heat exchanger for hot air, full cupper electrode to replace steatite water heater ? Best regards, C.SCHOLL
Re: [Vo]:Interesting new video from ecat.com
Perhaps the original 1MW plant never shipped to the customer's location as the customer wanted it fixed before shipping, i.e. the leaking gaskets, the control system etc. As I recall Rossi never said the unit was delivered to the customer's premises although I could be wrong on this. On 18/01/12 18:47, Akira Shirakawa wrote: Hello group, Have a look at this interesting Youtube video by ecat.com: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odkfAjqA4pc Apparently it's been filmed on January 12th. It shows that: - Rossi is currently in Bologna - Rossi's test site appears to be cold - The 1 MW E-Cat container shown during the last "public" demo is in Bologna too - There appears to be a new control box. Have I missed anything else? Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Interesting new video from ecat.com
Jones Isn't it possible that the US customer's facility is in Italy? If the customer is military, as speculated to be, then it's possible that they are using one of their bases in Italy to monitor and deal with Rossi and the 1MW plant. The US have a base near Vicensa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Army_installations_in_Italy) which is only 150Km from Bologna so it's quite possible that Rossi was at the 'customer's facility' the day before the interview. Not saying it's so but just saying we don't know everything. On 19/01/12 01:53, Jones Beene wrote: AG, I agree. However, even if the maker of the Jan 12 vid incorporated a clip of the BBB from before it was shipped, we still have to deal with AR's statement that he was "replacing gaskets" on that same unit at this time. The location is not known but if it is "somewhere" besides Bologna, then that is the problem ... since the statement came hours before the interview - when we know he was in Bologna. Was he at the customer's facility the afternoon before, and then caught a quick flight back, to do the interview? That would explain it, but methinks the strings of rationalization that make this episode "not seem" to be as suspicious as it is - are getting longer by the hour. Again, let me say that my problem is NOT with the technology, which is valid, but with the man. Jones -Original Message- From: Aussie Guy E-Cat Jones, All that can be said at the present point in time is the images are of the same BBB. Until we can determine the date of the Jan 12 video interview's images of the BBB, any assumptions are just guess work. Differential staining on the floor in front of the E-Cat plant is suggestive of the Jan 12 image actually being taken before the 28 Oct image. AG On 19/01/2012 11:41 AM, Jones Beene wrote: Daniel, You seem to be implying that you are content that Rossi could have lied about there being a mystery customer, when there was none; instead of that he lied about the customer sending it back? Jones
Re: [Vo]:Rossi on the Smart Scarecrow Show
In Aussie Guy's summary of the key points of the show he stated "Heating is via low energy Gammas hitting the lead shielding." I must of missed that in the interview and will have another listen when I get time. This sounds to me that the heat used to heat the water is produced by the heating of the lead shield by the radiation rather than the heat from the actual reaction itself. So in effect the lead shield has become the heat exchanger. Is my interpretation correct? If so this could explain why Rossi doesn't use another material (similar to DGT) for the shielding. On 16/01/12 07:58, Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: Mark, Rossi claimed, in the latest interview, two 511 keV gammas, going in opposite directions, were produced and had been measured as a result of electron–positron annihilation inside the E-Cat reactor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron%E2%80%93positron_annihilation AG On 1/16/2012 6:08 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint wrote: Aussie Guy summarizing Rossi's interview... "512 keV 180 deg Gammas have been detected" 180 degs relative to what? -Mark
[Vo]:E-CAT Home to be $50/kW
On Rossi's JONP - http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=563cpage=11#comment-169012 Andrea Rossi January 13th, 2012 at 3:03 AM Dear Albert Ellul: Thank you. The big science, after trying to ridiculize us, now has understood that the E-Cat works, so now they are trying to copy and make patents to overcome us, discourage us and trying with this sophysticated way to stop us under a disguise of an indirect vindication. Is a smart move, but they are underevaluating us. I will never stop, within one year we will start the delivery of million pieces at 50 $/kW, with a totally new concept, at that point the game will be over. This technology must be popular, must cost a very low price, must be a real revoluton, not a bunch of theoretical (wrong) chatters. Warm Regards, A.R. The price is really tumbling now.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi : customer can refill
I agree. This changes things significantly. It will be interesting to see how this is achieved. It's simple enough to change a cartridge with the nickel powder but how is the hydrogen taken care of? Perhaps the whole reactor core including the hydrogen storage is built into some sort of cartridge which then gets returned to the supplier for refilling / recycling much like gas cylinders. On 13/01/12 14:41, David Roberson wrote: The requirement that a certified service technicianbe required to refill the fuel supply every 6 months has been a large burden. This announcement is welcome and will ensure that the ECATs become widely accepted. The news keeps getting better all the time. I am not sure that there are any serious issues left to resolve at this point except maybe for the power-up and power-down times. And of course, it would be wonderful if the devices could be miniturized. Dave
Re: [Vo]:E-CAT Home to be $50/kW
I've been thinking about this a little more and am starting to wonder how Rossi is able to achieve such a low price. At $500 for 10kW, that's way lower than any conventional boiler that I know of. I'd image the actual process of machining and automated assembly, of the unit can be kept quite low with the volumes Rossi is talking about but what about the instrumentation and control costs? I would have thought that they would be a significant cost in the production of the unit. NI must have come up with some smart and economical ways for performing the monitoring and control of the device. I would also hope that each device is tested before being packaged for shipping which must involve some manual labour and so would account for a significant portion of the device's production cost. There is also the industrial design aspect. Rossi must have come up with some sort of design for an enclosure for the unit which must be cheap to manufacture and easy to remove for refuelling. On 13/01/12 10:53, Energy Liberator wrote: On Rossi's JONP - http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=563cpage=11#comment-169012 Andrea Rossi January 13th, 2012 at 3:03 AM Dear Albert Ellul: Thank you. The big science, after trying to ridiculize us, now has understood that the E-Cat works, so now they are trying to copy and make patents to overcome us, discourage us and trying with this sophysticated way to stop us under a disguise of an indirect vindication. Is a smart move, but they are underevaluating us. I will never stop, within one year we will start the delivery of million pieces at 50 $/kW, with a totally new concept, at that point the game will be over. This technology must be popular, must cost a very low price, must be a real revoluton, not a bunch of theoretical (wrong) chatters. Warm Regards, A.R. The price is really tumbling now.
Re: [Vo]:E-CAT Home to be $50/kW
My understanding is that the low price per kilowatt only applies to the domestic e-cat which are 10kW. The e-cats in the 1MW plant use a different reactor and are more expensive at $1500/kW. On 13/01/12 15:46, Dr Joe Karthauser wrote: Just because the price is so low per kilowatt doesn't mean that you can buy it per kilowatt. I imagine that that's the price for the big ones, and the smaller ones are more expensive. Joe -- Dr Joe Karthauser On 13 Jan 2012, at 15:28, Energy Liberator energylibera...@gmail.com wrote: I've been thinking about this a little more and am starting to wonder how Rossi is able to achieve such a low price. At $500 for 10kW, that's way lower than any conventional boiler that I know of. I'd image the actual process of machining and automated assembly, of the unit can be kept quite low with the volumes Rossi is talking about but what about the instrumentation and control costs? I would have thought that they would be a significant cost in the production of the unit. NI must have come up with some smart and economical ways for performing the monitoring and control of the device. I would also hope that each device is tested before being packaged for shipping which must involve some manual labour and so would account for a significant portion of the device's production cost. There is also the industrial design aspect. Rossi must have come up with some sort of design for an enclosure for the unit which must be cheap to manufacture and easy to remove for refuelling.
Re: [Vo]:video from NASA about lenr (cold fusion)
For some reason the technologygateway.nasa.gov site is not loading for me. It just times out. It's been doing that all morning. Is there another link to this video on another site? video from NASA about lenr (cold fusion) http://technologygateway.nasa.gov/media/CC/lenr/lenr.html
Re: [Vo]:Hydrogen safety compared to gas safety
I was wondering about the safety of hydrogen cylinders in homes. Wouldn't it be better to produce the hydrogen by electrolysis and instead of storing it? The system could produce a small amount at a time and does it in a small chamber replenishing it as it's required.Alternatively, some safety system would need to be incorporated which would vent the hydrogen to atmosphere via a duct or flue in an event a problem arises like fire.From: Alain SepedaSent: Thu, Jan 5, 2012 12:49 PMTo: vortex-l@eskimo.comCC:Subject: Re: [Vo]:Hydrogen safety compared to gas safetyto feed the discussion, beside wikipedia data,here is airliquide encyclopedia page on hydrogenhttp://encyclopedia.airliquide.com/encyclopedia.asp?LanguageID=11CountryID=19Formula=GasID=36UNNumber= 2012/1/5 Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com Hi,discussion about radiation risk, make me think about Hydrogen explosion risk on Ni+H reactors for dayly use..
Re: [Vo]:20 kW home E-Cat LCOE
Where did you get a COP of 50 from? I thought it was 6. Rossi said in his interview that the running cost would be about 1/6th of a current conventional boiler running cost. On 04/01/12 07:52, Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: Based on the recently announced 20 kW thermal home E-Cat costing $1,500 and assuming it draws 0.4 kW (400 Watts) from the mains (COP 50), here is the LCOE and the individual item cost breakdowns. https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/kLBSLYjhfkssP57d3w1J6dMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink What I find interesting is annual cost of the fuel and servicing is 4 times the Levelized Annual Investment Cost of the E-Cat hardware. Will home E-Cats become like ink jet printers that are sold near cost price to get the replacement ink business? But with a LCOE cost of $0.00456 / thermal kWh who cares? This is just about as close to free energy as you can get. No excuse for anybody on this planet to be cold again. With the E-Cat's thermal energy being so low cost, cleaning up dirty water and desalination of sea / brackish water should be low cost as well. Well done Andrea Rossi, what a lovely New Years present to the whole planet.
Re: [Vo]:20 kW home E-Cat LCOE
OK, I thought he made mention of a COP 50 somewhere that I missed. I wonder how long after the US certification, it will be for Rossi to get certification for Europe and the rest of the World. On 04/01/12 13:41, Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: COP 6 was for the original Fat Cat E-Cats as used in the 1 MW demo unit. I suggest the 10 and 20 kW home units, to be delivered in Sept 2012, will not be anything like the Fat Cats and they will run in self sustain mode or very close to it. I estimated the control electronics and the primary circuit circulating pump would consume 400 Watts. With 20 kW thermal output and 400 Watts electrical input, the COP is 50. AG On 1/4/2012 11:25 PM, Energy Liberator wrote: Where did you get a COP of 50 from? I thought it was 6. Rossi said in his interview that the running cost would be about 1/6th of a current conventional boiler running cost. On 04/01/12 07:52, Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: Based on the recently announced 20 kW thermal home E-Cat costing $1,500 and assuming it draws 0.4 kW (400 Watts) from the mains (COP 50), here is the LCOE and the individual item cost breakdowns. https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/kLBSLYjhfkssP57d3w1J6dMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink What I find interesting is annual cost of the fuel and servicing is 4 times the Levelized Annual Investment Cost of the E-Cat hardware. Will home E-Cats become like ink jet printers that are sold near cost price to get the replacement ink business? But with a LCOE cost of $0.00456 / thermal kWh who cares? This is just about as close to free energy as you can get. No excuse for anybody on this planet to be cold again. With the E-Cat's thermal energy being so low cost, cleaning up dirty water and desalination of sea / brackish water should be low cost as well. Well done Andrea Rossi, what a lovely New Years present to the whole planet.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On 23/12/11 14:40, Jed Rothwell wrote: I am pretty sure the reason is because he wants to keep a low profile. He wants enough people to believe it is real to attract customers, but not so many that it attracts competition or attention from the authorities. He does not want the DoE to think it is real. I wouldn't want that either, if I were him. Heck, I wouldn't want that, being me. The longer they stay out, the better. Only the DoD is helpful. - Jed I can see the reasoning behind that but what baffles me is if that is the case then why even set up in the US? Of all places that's got to be the worse place. He would have been better off keeping it in Europe until everything / he is ready to go global with it. I really hope that this secret customer (who is supposedly is also helping him sort out problems and develop the high temperature version) really benefits Rossi's plans and doesn't screw him one they are finished.
Re: [Vo]:A competent observer's assessment of Defkalion
Nice find. Now all we need is someone to do a drive by and take a few photos to see the progress of the factory. On 21/12/11 04:30, Giovanni Santostasi wrote: So the coordinates of the Defkalion factory are: 41.1188 24.8674 Giovanni On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 10:25 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: AND HERE IT IS ! Go on the left of the academy and you see a symbol of a factory. If you translate from Greek this what you get: FormerFactoryAtmatzidis Itwill house the1of the 3plantsof the companypowerDefkalion. Alsotherehave been someinstallation work. Giovann On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: And here where the Police academy is located on google maps: http://wikimapia.org/17980152/Police-academy Giovanni. On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 9:11 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: Mary, This was easy to check. There is indeed a Xanthi Police Academy. Not yet news if they are indeed warmed up by e-cats. http://www.xanthi.ilsp.gr/cultureportalweb/print.php?article_id=1070lang=enprint_mode=article Giovanni On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 8:51 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: I suggest you hedge your bets. I've done that all along. Maybe amp it up a few notches? And please don't patronize me. It's not very elegant. Grasshopper indeed.
Re: [Vo]:A competent observer's assessment of Defkalion
On 20/12/11 20:32, Terry Blanton wrote: On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Jed Rothwelljedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Defkalion is not only starting a company, it is developing revolutionary technology, dealing with complex business arrangements, and dealing with Rossi, who is a difficult person to do business with. So they *are* dealing with Rossi still? I wonder in what way? T Hmmm. I thought that when I first read it but perhaps Jed is referring to the period in July / Aug when the relationship started to sour.
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
+1 I would live to see this list migrate to a forum for reasons already mentioned by Brad
Re:[Vo]:Mass media exposure kills SPAWAR cold fusion research
I've been lurking here for a couple of months now and have learned a great deal from all the comments. But reading this really saddened me. I truly hope that one day these so called scientists that refuse to admit there is something going on with CF or LENR end up being discredited and ripped apart by the media for only looking out for their own interests and not for the better of science. What goes round must come round. I wonder what this will do for Rossi if, as is speculated, SPAWAR was his secret customer?