Re: [Vo]: Hidden Wealth
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:11:58 -0800 (PST): Hi, [snip] --- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: Same explanation. The 16O is produced preferentially during photosynthesis ... it can more easily attain escape velocity Then the average ratio on earth should be the same as what has escaped (0.18 %) How can you read and understand what I wrote, then come to exactly the opposite conclusion, based on it? What I said was that 16O preferentially escapes from massive bodies, leaving a higher concentration of 18O behind. However if this were the case, then one might expect the O in rocks (particularly the quartzes) to be nearer the interstellar ratio as this O is less likely to take part in atmospheric exchange. The O taking part in atmospheric exchange would primarily be in the air and water of the Earth. IOW the ratio on Earth would depend on who measured it, and exactly where they got the O from that they measured. BTW Google revealed a few interesting things: http://presolar.wustl.edu/~fjs/publications/p062abs.html http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/259/5102/1733 http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/1995/94JA02936.shtml http://astro.nmsu.edu/~bwebber/high.html http://isotope.web.psi.ch/back.htm etc. but it is NOT and in fact is far different - that is the whole point ! The 18O/16O ratio in the interstellar region is presumably what should have been the ratio found 4.5 billion years ago on earth, and that has been measured as 0.18%, however the actual planetary ratio is nearly twice that level (0.3 %) which indicates that somehow, in the earth environment, probably in the ionosphere, substantial 16O has been converted to 18O AFTER it got here from the sun ! Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
Re: [Vo]: Hidden Wealth
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:11:28 -0800 (PST): Hi, --- Robin I think the explanation for the high concentration can in this case be found in the mundane... No, no - I should have been clearer - it is not that 'local' concentration which is the precise anomaly in question. But yes there is the mundane explanation for the salt lake also. The 18O/16O ratio in the interstellar region (and presumably the 'normal' ratio found at the time earth cooled) has been measured as 0.18, almost three times lower than the present ratio found in earth's oceans (~.5) and much lower than the total planetary ratio (.3)which includes CO2. (Wilson Rood 1994). The best explanation for this is that the ratio is altered in a planetary environment by some unknown mechanism vis-a-vis interstellar space. Same explanation. The 16O is produced preferentially during photosynthesis (a guess), and then when it becomes O under influence of solar radiation, it can more easily attain escape velocity and leave altogether (Boltzmann tail). Similar reasoning also applies to stars where O forms. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
Re: [Vo]: Hidden Wealth
--- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: Same explanation. The 16O is produced preferentially during photosynthesis ... it can more easily attain escape velocity Then the average ratio on earth should be the same as what has escaped (0.18 %) but it is NOT and in fact is far different - that is the whole point ! The 18O/16O ratio in the interstellar region is presumably what should have been the ratio found 4.5 billion years ago on earth, and that has been measured as 0.18%, however the actual planetary ratio is nearly twice that level (0.3 %) which indicates that somehow, in the earth environment, probably in the ionosphere, substantial 16O has been converted to 18O AFTER it got here from the sun !
[Vo]: Hidden Wealth
One of the more fascinating themes of fiction involves hidden wealth and the duplicity which is involved in controlling it. Of course, buried treasure and pirated booty is the prototype for this alluring theme - but even several of Blackbeard's chests of Spanish doubloons is little more than 'chump change' these days, compared to the immense value of the new wealth - an oil field, for instance. Today, regarding: the hidden part, now everybody knows about oil - but the future will hold the same surprises for the perceptive vision-quester (or greedy bastard). Black gold - oil - will be supplanted by new forms of wealth in the one thing which humans will always treasure above all else - energy. A fine novel that explores this transition [from oil to new energy] theme is Tony Hillerman's novel [back in the old days when he could still write well] called: People of Darkness. As for the coming decade [and stranger than fiction forms of wealth], take the national helium repository for instance - close by a certain ranch in Crawford TX. This one is not yet fictionalized. It was recently, very quietly, shuttled into private hands from DoE, in what is clearly political manipulation. There could be a trillion dollars worth of 3He hidden in there - but no one is talking. And few except at the highest levels would know for sure if a breakthrough in 3He fusion has taken place in a so-called black project. Still black-gold, eh? And then there is the Great Salt Lake, in Utah. This area in recent US history was formerly set amidst land so worthless that even when it was given free to any taker -only a shunned religious cult, top-heavy with more wives than husbands, would settle there. Nowadays, it is just possible that the salty water of this particular lake could be extremely valuable - in the trillion dollar range. If so, it will no doubt be labeled as a divine blessing to the later-day descendants, like when the gulls came. Hey they had to have some pay-back for giving up all those wives ;-) Why so potentially valuable? In short... well, the answer is indeed short: 18O. It is that strange isotope of hydrogen - 18O. Almost one percent of the unpalatable water in the Great Salt Lake water consists of this heavy so-called isotope 18O. The fact that there is such an abundance seems impossible, since 16O is one of the most stable of all nuclei. It has been speculated, on this forum before, that some of what is responsible for this seeming anomaly in abundance is not due to a primordial isotopic branching - but instead derives continuously from the stable 16O in nature, which migrates in vapor and then in the ionosphere becomes ozone, and then may capture and serve as a host for the ubiquitous solar hydrino-hydride. If there is any of it on earth, this is one of the few possible mechanisms which can bring it down [if that is, the bulk of it arrives charged, in the Hy- form instead of Hy or Hy2]. This process would be predicated on a continuous flux of Hy- intercepting earth, being shed from the solar corona, and then on contact with ozone - displacing the k-shell electrons of high altitude ozone, but only in a balanced pairing, which neutralizes the charge, and giving the appearance of 18O - when in fact the species is 16O with two captured hydrino-hydrides in what was [formerly] the k-shell, and is now a much different beast. Why is this particular species potentially important for new energy? Well ... here is a hint for those with an electrolytic cell: run a LENR experiment using light water and nickel electrode BUT use water enriched in 18O ;-) That is the teaser. Perhaps the full answer will appear in a future installment of this hidden wealth mystery. Perhaps it is more later-day gulling. And in the mean time, in homage to the well-crafted mystery, consider the John Grisham thriller [back in the old days when he could still write well] called: The Gingerbread Man. Good film version too. A poor and unstable hobo father, Robert Duvall, soon to be deceased, owns a few acres of salt-marsh worth practically nothing. The trampy daughter is a little whacked herself and starts sleeping with a slick Savannah defense lawyer (Kenneth Branagh). Can you spell fame-up? Then there is the subject of the worthless inheritance ... which ostensibly would not have inspired murder, would it? Hmm, it seems that daddy's marsh happens to contain an old walnut grove, which was planted by former slaves for sustenance during the years of king cotton - later abandoned. Modern consumers are too lazy to crack walnuts, and it takes slave labor to pick them. For those who do not yet realize yet the identity of the wealth - black walnut is now an especially valuable hardwood - even if nobody eats the nuts any more - and sold by the pound for high price furniture. Every large tree is said worth $10,000 and an acre is worth about $20 million - but it takes
Re: [Vo]: Hidden Wealth
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:08:51 -0800: Hi, [snip] It is that strange isotope of hydrogen - 18O. Almost one percent of the unpalatable water in the Great Salt Lake water consists of this heavy so-called isotope 18O. The fact that there is such an abundance seems impossible, since 16O is one of the most stable of all nuclei. Unfortunately, I think the explanation for the high concentration can in this case be found in the mundane. The lake is salty because it has no outlet. This means that the only way out for water is through evaporation. As we all know, evaporation tends to favor the lighter isotopes, hence the heavier 18O gets concentrated (as should D BTW). It has been speculated, on this forum before, that some of what is responsible for this seeming anomaly in abundance is not due to a primordial isotopic branching - but instead derives continuously from the stable 16O in nature, which migrates in vapor and then in the ionosphere becomes ozone, and then may capture and serve as a host for the ubiquitous solar hydrino-hydride. If there is any of it on earth, this is one of the few possible mechanisms which can bring it down [if that is, the bulk of it arrives charged, in the Hy- form instead of Hy or Hy2]. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
Re: [Vo]: Hidden Wealth
On 11/27/06, Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As for the coming decade [and stranger than fiction forms of wealth], take the national helium repository for instance - close by a certain ranch in Crawford TX. Well, now, this gives a whole new slant to the recent news: http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/473514p-398371c.html Closed to install the new 3He separation system? Can't have a parade wasting such a valuable resource now can we? Terry
Re: [Vo]: Hidden Wealth
--- Robin I think the explanation for the high concentration can in this case be found in the mundane... No, no - I should have been clearer - it is not that 'local' concentration which is the precise anomaly in question. But yes there is the mundane explanation for the salt lake also. The 18O/16O ratio in the interstellar region (and presumably the 'normal' ratio found at the time earth cooled) has been measured as 0.18, almost three times lower than the present ratio found in earth's oceans (~.5) and much lower than the total planetary ratio (.3)which includes CO2. (Wilson Rood 1994). The best explanation for this is that the ratio is altered in a planetary environment by some unknown mechanism vis-a-vis interstellar space.
