Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
In reply to Aussie Guy E-Cat's message of Wed, 07 Dec 2011 18:23:48 +1030: Hi, [snip] I grew up supporting the grid and will fight to see it retained. However LENR brings new business opportunities. With 45 kW of heat from a Hyperion unit, it is possible to build a relative low cost and simple CHP system to interface to the Hyperion unit. There is simply no commercial reason to feed the Ac kWhs back into the grid. We do have the opportunity to build 10 - 50 MW LENR plants as peaking generators. With that business model, there is very rapid payback. The idea is to cherry pick the most profitable markets for LENR systems, to develop turn key solutions and then to make sales. As we see it, market resistance is the lowest in domestic CHP followed by investor owned non dispatched 10+ MW peaking plants and finally base load plants or retro fits to replace fossil fuel powered boilers. [snip] At least in the beginning the reliability of these units is not likely to be high. A grid connection provides for the possibility of grid backup when a unit fails. When lots of units are in use, they provide backup for one another. Therefore I think the most likely scenario is that the grid itself will remain for some time, but central power generation will die off. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
For sure. Each CHP unit will have a BIG switch with 3 positions: CHP OFF GRID On 12/9/2011 12:51 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to Aussie Guy E-Cat's message of Wed, 07 Dec 2011 18:23:48 +1030: Hi, [snip] I grew up supporting the grid and will fight to see it retained. However LENR brings new business opportunities. With 45 kW of heat from a Hyperion unit, it is possible to build a relative low cost and simple CHP system to interface to the Hyperion unit. There is simply no commercial reason to feed the Ac kWhs back into the grid. We do have the opportunity to build 10 - 50 MW LENR plants as peaking generators. With that business model, there is very rapid payback. The idea is to cherry pick the most profitable markets for LENR systems, to develop turn key solutions and then to make sales. As we see it, market resistance is the lowest in domestic CHP followed by investor owned non dispatched 10+ MW peaking plants and finally base load plants or retro fits to replace fossil fuel powered boilers. [snip] At least in the beginning the reliability of these units is not likely to be high. A grid connection provides for the possibility of grid backup when a unit fails. When lots of units are in use, they provide backup for one another. Therefore I think the most likely scenario is that the grid itself will remain for some time, but central power generation will die off. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
You have good arguments. anyway, using the grid, or local grid, to average the production capacity, might be interesting. because most of the cost of e-cat/hyperion is not in fuel, or even refueling, but in building the plant. so reducing the total capacity, will reduce the cost. anyway the grid itself, and the smart grid controller, also have a cost, so it should be analysed. also if LENR is not expensive for home use, it can even be less expensive if managed like big plant. also the buying price of home CHP electricity migh be very interesting, because the grid need it , and it allow the grid to reduce it's max capacity... we have to see how the cost structure evolve... 2011/12/7 Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com I grew up supporting the grid and will fight to see it retained. However LENR brings new business opportunities. With 45 kW of heat from a Hyperion unit, it is possible to build a relative low cost and simple CHP system to interface to the Hyperion unit. There is simply no commercial reason to feed the Ac kWhs back into the grid. We do have the opportunity to build 10 - 50 MW LENR plants as peaking generators. With that business model, there is very rapid payback. The idea is to cherry pick the most profitable markets for LENR systems, to develop turn key solutions and then to make sales. As we see it, market resistance is the lowest in domestic CHP followed by investor owned non dispatched 10+ MW peaking plants and finally base load plants or retro fits to replace fossil fuel powered boilers.
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: Aussie FITs require the grid to be fed via a grid connect inverter and the inverter fed by a Renewable energy source. I doubt LENR would qualify. A few years after the introduction of cold fusion, no one will be talking about renewable energy anymore. All the laws pertaining to it will be a dead letter. The most expensive sources of energy will be the first to go. Despite rapid improvements wind and solar are still cheaper than fossil fuel, so they will go bankrupt before fossil fuel does. Fossil fuel especially oil will drop in price radically with the introduction of cold fusion. The producers will rush to sell off their stocks as quickly as possible, before they become worthless. Also their own costs will be reduced because they will not do much maintenance on their fleets of oil tankers and refineries. They will run this equipment until it wears out. There will be no need to replace it. I grew up supporting the grid and will fight to see it retained. However LENR brings new business opportunities. I grew up using slide rules, and programming mainframe computers and minicomputers, but I felt no loyalty toward that technology. I was glad to see it replaced by microcomputers. It makes no sense to cling to obsolete technology. LENR will not just bring new business opportunities, it will obliterate all other sources of energy, and all supporting technology that is no longer needed. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
I support your vision , extending it according to my It experience. PC were really a great progress for IT in enterprises, but also a hell, because it was hard to collaborate. reliability, backup, sharing was very complicated and expensive. networking start to exist, then be reliable, then easy to install, then inter-operating, and then it became natural (end then Internet came, and that is another story)... laptop can work off the network, but enjoy to work on the network, and even can use wireless... this is why I believe in the grid, even with PC-like energy... but I agree that home energy will, like laptop, be able sometime to work off-line, or in local network only. instead of home energy , off the grid, I believe more in a competition between very low cost farmed energy (like virtualization/cloud in IT, or classic power plant in energy), medium scale servers (like department/enterprise database/app/file servers), and PC sized energy (playing like Seti@home with the grid, home), and even maybe the thin-client/mobile who simply connect to the grid and participate a minimum (CHP, Hybrid cars, cooking oven)... there will be force like Aussie toward down-scaling/autonomy, force like me for seti@home smart grid, and probably people like Areva to propose Virtualized farmed energy from big plants, or people like Apple to propose LENR powered phone/laptop/pad or rice-cooker/bread-machine/minioven... and the winner, if any, is not know yet. 2011/12/7 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com I grew up using slide rules, and programming mainframe computers and minicomputers, but I felt no loyalty toward that technology. I was glad to see it replaced by microcomputers. It makes no sense to cling to obsolete technology. LENR will not just bring new business opportunities, it will obliterate all other sources of energy, and all supporting technology that is no longer needed. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 10:01 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: I grew up using slide rules, and programming mainframe computers and minicomputers, but I felt no loyalty toward that technology. I have a bamboo Post Versalog leather cased slide rule in my office. Our intern engineers do not know what it is or what to believe when I tell them that it was the calculator that took us to the moon. I make them read the instruction book and do some simple calculations with the rule out of spite for their youth! T
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
I wrote: Despite rapid improvements wind and solar are still cheaper than fossil fuel, so they will go bankrupt before fossil fuel does. I mean they are still nominally *more expensive* than fossil fuel, because we do not take into account the cost of pollution or global warming. Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: I have a bamboo Post Versalog leather cased slide rule in my office. Our intern engineers do not know what it is or what to believe when I tell them that it was the calculator that took us to the moon. I make them read the instruction book and do some simple calculations with the rule out of spite for their youth! Ha, ha! My mother said that slide rules are good for students because they force you to pay attention to what you are doing. You have to remember where the decimal point is. She and others of her generation felt that two decimal places of precision was enough for most purposes. They thought that modern calculators with all those extra digits give people the wrong idea. People tend to go for highly precise looking numbers that mean nothing. On the other hand, I read an article somewhere recently that said that civil engineering projects such as bridges and even aircraft designed with slide rules tended to be overengineered. They were stronger than they needed to be, and used more material, because the calculations were not precise. They did have more precise means of computation. My mother was an expert at using a Comptometer, which she did during WWII. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
On 12/6/2011 6:02 PM, Alain dit le Cycliste wrote: from your experience, what are the relative merit/domain of - piston/rotative steam engine (like the one people talk here) Simple, low cost, easy to repair / maintain and can work with the steam pressure generated by the primary circuit of the Hyperion unit (can handle 150 Bar in the primary circuit). Rossi has not yet revealed the steam pressure capability of his 10 kW unit. As the Rossi 1 MW plant has 3 Bar pressure release on each module output, the steam pressure available is probably too low for even piston steam engines. At least those that I have found. - steam/gaz turbine (with water or volatile fluids) ORC is expensive and large compared to a piston steam engine. There are no systems available in the 5 - 7.5 kW range. - Stirling engine I know of no Stirling engines of 5 - 7.5 Ac kW capacity. All that is available now seems to be piston steam engines. assuming the temperature proposed by Hyperion small and medium, working alone or in farm like e-cat 1MW, what are your opinion on best solution fr each. by the way, for CHP generator on the grid, Not interested. With 7.5 Ac kW generation capacity, why go on grid? what is your opinion on using asynchronous generator automatically matching grid frequency ? NA in our domestic business model but in the power range we are talking about, using a grid connect inverter would be the only economical method. I doubt any government will pay a feed-in tariff for LENR generated Ac kWhs so why pump back excess power? do you know classic method to switch from async on grid, to sync off grid ? We propose to use an appropriate selected manually operated switch to power the load / your home from either the grid or the LENR system. do you know classic method for asynchronous generators, to restore a good phase (ie: absorb reactive power, restore good cos phi...) There are many VAR corrector system on the market. 2011/12/6 Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com Based on the lowest LENR
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
As someone who has worked on, and has a number of patents on Z-Crank type engines I would not recommend buying one of these green steam engines. The design/construction appears to emphasise appearance over function and doesn't look like it will operate reliably for more than 10-100 hours. In particular the open unlubricated design is not sensible - unlubricated spherical bearings do not work reliably in wrist joints over extended periods of running with the high loads that such engines have, they are extremely likely to be a big ongoing maintenance hassle. Also very large bearing overhangs on thin shafts in an open space frame that lacks diagonal bracing is not good for bearings, and the torque reaction method (to stop the spider spinning) does not look at all durable either. To me the engineering all appears rather amateur, and while probably fine to run as a demonstrator for a few hours I would not be relying on it to run for any length of time. A normal crank mechanism steam engine might not look as cool, but it is far more likely to give you long term reliable running. On 6 December 2011 03:34, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: This piston based steam engine looks very doable and market ready for a home CHP plant: http://www.greensteamengine.**comhttp://www.greensteamengine.com1,500 rpm. 10 HP (~6.5 kW.e) at 125 psi steam or 4 HP at 50 psi steam. $1,995 for the commercial 2 cylinder unit without a generator. Ok needs a control system to hold Ac cycles at 50 / 60 Hz but that will not be hard to build.
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
We have asked them for their FEA stress analysis data and for how long they have had an engine running continuously at max load. This company appears to have licensed the 6 cylinder / 25 HP engine, and have a few interesting videos: www.steamenginepower.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdikr5nBLxAfeature=mfu_in_orderlist=UL There doesn't seem to be much cylinder movement with this arrangement. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jk3yU_iUfsfeature=mfu_in_orderlist=UL Maintenance video that lets you get a good idea of the size of the unit. The hardened / anodized aluminum cylinders with a simple O ring seal piston doesn't impress me but then I have not seen the specs and what reliability tests they have done. On 12/6/2011 7:37 PM, Robert Lynn wrote: As someone who has worked on, and has a number of patents on Z-Crank type engines I would not recommend buying one of these green steam engines. The design/construction appears to emphasise appearance over function and doesn't look like it will operate reliably for more than 10-100 hours. In particular the open unlubricated design is not sensible - unlubricated spherical bearings do not work reliably in wrist joints over extended periods of running with the high loads that such engines have, they are extremely likely to be a big ongoing maintenance hassle. Also very large bearing overhangs on thin shafts in an open space frame that lacks diagonal bracing is not good for bearings, and the torque reaction method (to stop the spider spinning) does not look at all durable either. To me the engineering all appears rather amateur, and while probably fine to run as a demonstrator for a few hours I would not be relying on it to run for any length of time. A normal crank mechanism steam engine might not look as cool, but it is far more likely to give you long term reliable running. On 6 December 2011 03:34, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: This piston based steam engine looks very doable and market ready for a home CHP plant: http://www.greensteamengine.com 1,500 rpm. 10 HP (~6.5 kW.e) at 125 psi steam or 4 HP at 50 psi steam. $1,995 for the commercial 2 cylinder unit without a generator. Ok needs a control system to hold Ac cycles at 50 / 60 Hz but that will not be hard to build.
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
Could you have a problem with the 30kWH of excess heat. It seems a bit much to get rid of for space heating and hot water especially in a suburban situation. I was also looking a FIT rate in Australia and it seems you can get money back from the power company. Could you do this for ecat power? On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 3:06 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.comwrote: Based on the lowest LENR / kW price so far quoted ($7,700 (this the quoted retail installed price) / 45 kW thermal), the LCOE / kWh thermal is then $0.004 / kWh thermal. Assuming a 25% conversion efficiency, the cost is then $0.016 / Ac kWh for 24/7/365 for 30 years of electricity plus you have 30 kWh of thermal heat to be use for space and water heating. What will that cost your for the petrol based generator running 24/7/365 for 30 years? Then add in the cost of space and water heating. BTW we can source a good quality 7.5 kW single / 3 phase alternator (with voltage control) from China for around $300 and a good quality 10 HP steam engine (with RPM control) for around $250. We expect to be able to offer a LENR driven off grid CHP system for less than $8,000 with more than enough electrical, hot water and space heat output to run a large domestic home with only connections to the water and storm water sewage grid. Of course there are off the shelf systems to do those functions off the grid as well. On 12/6/2011 5:02 PM, David Roberson wrote: I found a generator driven by a 4 cycle gasoline engine that puts out 5500 watts of AC for $648 US dollars(Lowes USA). This price includes everything you need except the gasoline. I understand that the LENR powered devices that we are looking at do not require refueling except for twice a year, but the cost of the bare unit gets my attention. A 4 cycle gas engine is pretty complicated and does the conversion of heat into rotary motion as a steam engine would. Why should we not expect the price of a comparable LENR device to be more in line with this? I understand that they deserve a portion of the fuel savings, but why try to take so much of the money? Maybe the ECAT type price will be more comparable to the generator I found when production numbers and competition kicks in. Dave -Original Message- From: Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, Dec 5, 2011 11:30 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end I've emailed Robert Green and asked for more data and if what I get looks good, I will buy one of the 2 cylinder 10 Hp unit to have a play. From what I can find this is my front runner steam engine to use as the torque source for a domestic LENR CHP unit. With 24/7 LENR primary heat source and CHP with electricity generation at around 5 - 6 Ac kWs, who needs to worry about grid tie? On 12/6/2011 2:36 PM, ecat builder wrote: Hi Aussie, I posted that and a few other steam engines earlier that got a bunch of thoughtful replies. http://www.mail-archive.com/**vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg53254.**htmlhttp://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg53254.html However, maybe a discussion of grid-tie in using existing solar/wind systems would be interesting. Some of the new tie-in controllers tell you how much carbon you're not using. (!?) - Brad p.s. Aussie, or any other Vortex person.. The Nelson slides mention someone from Quantum Energy Technologies being at the Rossi demo... Do you know if this company is one and the same? http://www.quantumenergy.com.**au/ http://www.quantumenergy.com.au/
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
On 12/6/2011 10:22 PM, Colin Hercus wrote: Could you have a problem with the 30kWH of excess heat. It seems a bit much to get rid of for space heating and hot water especially in a suburban situation. The Hyperion unit has 9 cores and can dynamically stage them as required by the load. 30 kWs of heat would be the worst case assuming max 10 kW electricity demand and no hot water or space heating requirements. I was also looking a FIT rate in Australia and it seems you can get money back from the power company. Could you do this for ecat power? Aussie FITs require the grid to be fed via a grid connect inverter and the inverter fed by a Renewable energy source. I doubt LENR would qualify. No reason to generate DC and then feed the grid and the home from an expensive solid state inverter. Plain old simple PM based Ac alternator delivering 50 Hz at 240 Vac will do nicely.
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
In reply to Aussie Guy E-Cat's message of Wed, 07 Dec 2011 09:20:00 +1030: Hi, [snip] Aussie FITs require the grid to be fed via a grid connect inverter and the inverter fed by a Renewable energy source. I doubt LENR would qualify. If you get a system working, then I think you should request that LENR be accepted as Renewable, since it is green, and will last longer than the Earth itself (literally; the Sun will turn into a red giant and fry the Earth before all the hydrogen is exhausted.) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
I agree that green energy policy (ang green everything) will be a big source of trouble for LENR generators. those regulation are not rational, nor efficient, by design (they are subsidies, and dogmatic). LENR, as it looks, is simply efficient. as I've already discuss with you, I know an old method consisting to habe an asynchronous generator on a grid, or a frequency controlled synchronous generator. today maybe electronic inverters could be more efficient, especially if you integrate the cost to compensate phase shift of async... so stupid made for green energy regulation, that force a technical solution, will be a problem. anyway, maybe we can turn around the stupid regulation, because LENR don't need subsidies, don't need forced buying by grid... LENR can sell at a price that the grid love, at a date that the grid demand. maybe there is no need of a forced buying, if the grid can propose a smart-grid controler, and smart price. a network of CHP could make the grid much more stable if they behave like a gang, and not so solo. by the way, I feel that you, aussi guy, don't love the grid. I can undestand that in a low density zone, with expensive and unreliable grid. same for american mid-west. however in europe, asia, or us coast, the grid is really a value. the only problem these days is that in europe solar and wind energy is killing the grid stability. recently poland have said that it will refuse to accept german solar/wind energy at some time, because it destabilize the grid, since nuclear plant are stopped... in france we start to have similar problem (increase of rate of breakdown), despite the very good grid. I really feel that LENR CHP (small and medium) can, opposite to solar/wind, stabilize the network naturally (it produce more when there are needs, naturaly), and on-demand (CHP can be temporarily activated, or blocked, because heating can be delayed/maintained a little). collaborating with the grid can make the total price of electricity much lower, that autonomous LENR. on low density, expensive grid, I agree that no-grid solution can be better, because an triple sized generator may be less expensive that a 20km 20kV line+transformer. smart local grid for village can also be an intermediate solution, and with smart grid and LENR it can be much more easy than with todays technology. decision should be based on cost. 2011/12/6 Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com ssie FITs require the grid to be fed via a grid connect inverter and the inverter fed by a Renewable energy source. I doubt LENR would qualify. No reason to generate DC and then feed the grid and the home from an expensive solid state inverter. Plain old simple PM based Ac alternator delivering 50 Hz at 240 Vac will do nicely.
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
I grew up supporting the grid and will fight to see it retained. However LENR brings new business opportunities. With 45 kW of heat from a Hyperion unit, it is possible to build a relative low cost and simple CHP system to interface to the Hyperion unit. There is simply no commercial reason to feed the Ac kWhs back into the grid. We do have the opportunity to build 10 - 50 MW LENR plants as peaking generators. With that business model, there is very rapid payback. The idea is to cherry pick the most profitable markets for LENR systems, to develop turn key solutions and then to make sales. As we see it, market resistance is the lowest in domestic CHP followed by investor owned non dispatched 10+ MW peaking plants and finally base load plants or retro fits to replace fossil fuel powered boilers. On 12/7/2011 5:59 PM, Alain dit le Cycliste wrote: I agree that green energy policy (ang green everything) will be a big source of trouble for LENR generators. those regulation are not rational, nor efficient, by design (they are subsidies, and dogmatic). LENR, as it looks, is simply efficient. as I've already discuss with you, I know an old method consisting to habe an asynchronous generator on a grid, or a frequency controlled synchronous generator. today maybe electronic inverters could be more efficient, especially if you integrate the cost to compensate phase shift of async... so stupid made for green energy regulation, that force a technical solution, will be a problem. anyway, maybe we can turn around the stupid regulation, because LENR don't need subsidies, don't need forced buying by grid... LENR can sell at a price that the grid love, at a date that the grid demand. maybe there is no need of a forced buying, if the grid can propose a smart-grid controler, and smart price. a network of CHP could make the grid much more stable if they behave like a gang, and not so solo. by the way, I feel that you, aussi guy, don't love the grid. I can undestand that in a low density zone, with expensive and unreliable grid. same for american mid-west. however in europe, asia, or us coast, the grid is really a value. the only problem these days is that in europe solar and wind energy is killing the grid stability. recently poland have said that it will refuse to accept german solar/wind energy at some time, because it destabilize the grid, since nuclear plant are stopped... in france we start to have similar problem (increase of rate of breakdown), despite the very good grid. I really feel that LENR CHP (small and medium) can, opposite to solar/wind, stabilize the network naturally (it produce more when there are needs, naturaly), and on-demand (CHP can be temporarily activated, or blocked, because heating can be delayed/maintained a little). collaborating with the grid can make the total price of electricity much lower, that autonomous LENR. on low density, expensive grid, I agree that no-grid solution can be better, because an triple sized generator may be less expensive that a 20km 20kV line+transformer. smart local grid for village can also be an intermediate solution, and with smart grid and LENR it can be much more easy than with todays technology. decision should be based on cost. 2011/12/6 Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com ssie FITs require the grid to be fed via a grid connect inverter and the inverter fed by a Renewable energy source. I doubt LENR would qualify. No reason to generate DC and then feed the grid and the home from an expensive solid state inverter. Plain old simple PM based Ac alternator delivering 50 Hz at 240 Vac will do nicely.
[Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
This piston based steam engine looks very doable and market ready for a home CHP plant: http://www.greensteamengine.com 1,500 rpm. 10 HP (~6.5 kW.e) at 125 psi steam or 4 HP at 50 psi steam. $1,995 for the commercial 2 cylinder unit without a generator. Ok needs a control system to hold Ac cycles at 50 / 60 Hz but that will not be hard to build.
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
Hi Aussie, I posted that and a few other steam engines earlier that got a bunch of thoughtful replies. http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg53254.html However, maybe a discussion of grid-tie in using existing solar/wind systems would be interesting. Some of the new tie-in controllers tell you how much carbon you're not using. (!?) - Brad p.s. Aussie, or any other Vortex person.. The Nelson slides mention someone from Quantum Energy Technologies being at the Rossi demo... Do you know if this company is one and the same? http://www.quantumenergy.com.au/
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
I've emailed Robert Green and asked for more data and if what I get looks good, I will buy one of the 2 cylinder 10 Hp unit to have a play. From what I can find this is my front runner steam engine to use as the torque source for a domestic LENR CHP unit. With 24/7 LENR primary heat source and CHP with electricity generation at around 5 - 6 Ac kWs, who needs to worry about grid tie? On 12/6/2011 2:36 PM, ecat builder wrote: Hi Aussie, I posted that and a few other steam engines earlier that got a bunch of thoughtful replies. http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg53254.html However, maybe a discussion of grid-tie in using existing solar/wind systems would be interesting. Some of the new tie-in controllers tell you how much carbon you're not using. (!?) - Brad p.s. Aussie, or any other Vortex person.. The Nelson slides mention someone from Quantum Energy Technologies being at the Rossi demo... Do you know if this company is one and the same? http://www.quantumenergy.com.au/
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
I found a generator driven by a 4 cycle gasoline engine that puts out 5500 watts of AC for $648 US dollars(Lowes USA). This price includes everything you need except the gasoline. I understand that the LENR powered devices that we are looking at do not require refueling except for twice a year, but the cost of the bare unit gets my attention. A 4 cycle gas engine is pretty complicated and does the conversion of heat into rotary motion as a steam engine would. Why should we not expect the price of a comparable LENR device to be more in line with this? I understand that they deserve a portion of the fuel savings, but why try to take so much of the money? Maybe the ECAT type price will be more comparable to the generator I found when production numbers and competition kicks in. Dave -Original Message- From: Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, Dec 5, 2011 11:30 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end I've emailed Robert Green and asked for more data and if what I get ooks good, I will buy one of the 2 cylinder 10 Hp unit to have a play. From what I can find this is my front runner steam engine to use as the orque source for a domestic LENR CHP unit. With 24/7 LENR primary heat ource and CHP with electricity generation at around 5 - 6 Ac kWs, who eeds to worry about grid tie? On 12/6/2011 2:36 PM, ecat builder wrote: Hi Aussie, I posted that and a few other steam engines earlier that got a bunch of thoughtful replies. http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg53254.html However, maybe a discussion of grid-tie in using existing solar/wind systems would be interesting. Some of the new tie-in controllers tell you how much carbon you're not using. (!?) - Brad p.s. Aussie, or any other Vortex person.. The Nelson slides mention someone from Quantum Energy Technologies being at the Rossi demo... Do you know if this company is one and the same? http://www.quantumenergy.com.au/
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
Based on the lowest LENR / kW price so far quoted ($7,700 (this the quoted retail installed price) / 45 kW thermal), the LCOE / kWh thermal is then $0.004 / kWh thermal. Assuming a 25% conversion efficiency, the cost is then $0.016 / Ac kWh for 24/7/365 for 30 years of electricity plus you have 30 kWh of thermal heat to be use for space and water heating. What will that cost your for the petrol based generator running 24/7/365 for 30 years? Then add in the cost of space and water heating. BTW we can source a good quality 7.5 kW single / 3 phase alternator (with voltage control) from China for around $300 and a good quality 10 HP steam engine (with RPM control) for around $250. We expect to be able to offer a LENR driven off grid CHP system for less than $8,000 with more than enough electrical, hot water and space heat output to run a large domestic home with only connections to the water and storm water sewage grid. Of course there are off the shelf systems to do those functions off the grid as well. On 12/6/2011 5:02 PM, David Roberson wrote: I found a generator driven by a 4 cycle gasoline engine that puts out 5500 watts of AC for $648 US dollars(Lowes USA). This price includes everything you need except the gasoline. I understand that the LENR powered devices that we are looking at do not require refueling except for twice a year, but the cost of the bare unit gets my attention. A 4 cycle gas engine is pretty complicated and does the conversion of heat into rotary motion as a steam engine would. Why should we not expect the price of a comparable LENR device to be more in line with this? I understand that they deserve a portion of the fuel savings, but why try to take so much of the money? Maybe the ECAT type price will be more comparable to the generator I found when production numbers and competition kicks in. Dave -Original Message- From: Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, Dec 5, 2011 11:30 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end I've emailed Robert Green and asked for more data and if what I get looks good, I will buy one of the 2 cylinder 10 Hp unit to have a play. From what I can find this is my front runner steam engine to use as the torque source for a domestic LENR CHP unit. With 24/7 LENR primary heat source and CHP with electricity generation at around 5 - 6 Ac kWs, who needs to worry about grid tie? On 12/6/2011 2:36 PM, ecat builder wrote: Hi Aussie, I posted that and a few other steam engines earlier that got a bunch of thoughtful replies. http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg53254.html However, maybe a discussion of grid-tie in using existing solar/wind systems would be interesting. Some of the new tie-in controllers tell you how much carbon you're not using. (!?) - Brad p.s. Aussie, or any other Vortex person.. The Nelson slides mention someone from Quantum Energy Technologies being at the Rossi demo... Do you know if this company is one and the same? http://www.quantumenergy.com.au/
Re: [Vo]:Domestic LENR steam/electricity front end
from your experience, what are the relative merit/domain of - piston/rotative steam engine (like the one people talk here) - steam/gaz turbine (with water or volatile fluids) - Stirling engine assuming the temperature proposed by Hyperion small and medium, working alone or in farm like e-cat 1MW, what are your opinion on best solution fr each. by the way, for CHP generator on the grid, what is your opinion on using asynchronous generator automatically matching grid frequency ? do you know classic method to switch from async on grid, to sync off grid ? do you know classic method for asynchronous generators, to restore a good phase (ie: absorb reactive power, restore good cos phi...) 2011/12/6 Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com Based on the lowest LENR
