Re: [Vo]:Fukushima on Ice
Prime Minister Abe told the Olympic Committee I assure you that the Fukushima reactor is under control and that it will not endanger Tokyo. He is certain of that. On what basis? He is a politician, not an engineer, and in any case the engineers have been wrong about everything so far. I am not saying Tokyo is surely threatened, but I am saying that no one can be certain it isn't. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Fukushima on Ice
His response is typical of politicians. They want to calm fears even when they know that disaster might be around the corner. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Sep 8, 2013 9:54 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Fukushima on Ice Prime Minister Abe told the Olympic Committee I assure you that the Fukushima reactor is under control and that it will not endanger Tokyo. He is certain of that. On what basis? He is a politician, not an engineer, and in any case the engineers have been wrong about everything so far. I am not saying Tokyo is surely threatened, but I am saying that no one can be certain it isn't. - Jed
[Vo]:Fukushima on Ice
Good Olympics to watch on TV. Another 8.0 earthquake in the area, those spent fuel pools breach and catch fire we could all be at risk. On Sunday, September 8, 2013, Jed Rothwell wrote: Prime Minister Abe told the Olympic Committee I assure you that the Fukushima reactor is under control and that it will not endanger Tokyo. He is certain of that. On what basis? He is a politician, not an engineer, and in any case the engineers have been wrong about everything so far. I am not saying Tokyo is surely threatened, but I am saying that no one can be certain it isn't. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Fukushima on Ice
Tokyo wins bid for 2020 Olympics http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/07/sport/world-olympics-2020/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 Glow-in-the-dark Olympics?
Re: [Vo]:Fukushima on Ice
In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 5 Sep 2013 17:44:36 -0400: Hi, [snip] Fukushima leaks: Japan pledges $470m for 'ice wall' Japan is to invest hundreds of millions of dollars into building a frozen wall around the Fukushima nuclear plant to stop leaks of radioactive water. ...and what happens when the enclosure fills up? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
[Vo]:Fukushima on Ice
Fukushima leaks: Japan pledges $470m for 'ice wall' Japan is to invest hundreds of millions of dollars into building a frozen wall around the Fukushima nuclear plant to stop leaks of radioactive water. more http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23940214
Re: [Vo]:Fukushima on Ice
mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Japan is to invest hundreds of millions of dollars into building a frozen wall around the Fukushima nuclear plant to stop leaks of radioactive water. ...and what happens when the enclosure fills up? It is filled up now. That is to say, the ground is saturated with groundwater. The idea is to stop more ground water from entering. In other words, it is a like a giant wall, or box, that extends below the ground to a level lower than the usual flow of ground water. The incoming ground water will then come up against it, from the uphill side. It will fill up wells drilled on the outside of the wall. These wells will have be continuously pumped out and drained into the ocean. This stops the water from percolating through the contaminated dirt. The contaminate dirt is between the wall and the ocean. Japan has lots of rain. Everyplace I have been to has lots of groundwater, easily tapped for a well. After rain, it pours out of rocky cliffs and retaining walls. Retaining walls always have drainage pipes or gaps built into them to let the water out. I thought this technique was new, but Japanese experts quoted in the New York Times say it has been used in construction projects such as the Big Dig in Boston. However, it has never been employed on such a large scale. This will take prodigious amounts of energy to maintain. That is, to keep it frozen and to pump out the accumulating ground water from behind the wall. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Fukushima on Ice
The plan sounds interesting, but as we all know, there are many unknowns. Water will find a way to move in other directions if at all possible. I can imagine that some will find its way to the surface if being pushed from behind. I suspect that there will be more chapters to this book before it is completed. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Sep 5, 2013 6:55 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Fukushima on Ice mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Japan is to invest hundreds of millions of dollars into building a frozen wall around the Fukushima nuclear plant to stop leaks of radioactive water. ...and what happens when the enclosure fills up? It is filled up now. That is to say, the ground is saturated with groundwater. The idea is to stop more ground water from entering. In other words, it is a like a giant wall, or box, that extends below the ground to a level lower than the usual flow of ground water. The incoming ground water will then come up against it, from the uphill side. It will fill up wells drilled on the outside of the wall. These wells will have be continuously pumped out and drained into the ocean. This stops the water from percolating through the contaminated dirt. The contaminate dirt is between the wall and the ocean. Japan has lots of rain. Everyplace I have been to has lots of groundwater, easily tapped for a well. After rain, it pours out of rocky cliffs and retaining walls. Retaining walls always have drainage pipes or gaps built into them to let the water out. I thought this technique was new, but Japanese experts quoted in the New York Times say it has been used in construction projects such as the Big Dig in Boston. However, it has never been employed on such a large scale. This will take prodigious amounts of energy to maintain. That is, to keep it frozen and to pump out the accumulating ground water from behind the wall. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Fukushima on Ice
David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: The plan sounds interesting, but as we all know, there are many unknowns. Water will find a way to move in other directions if at all possible. I can imagine that some will find its way to the surface if being pushed from behind. No doubt it will. They want it to come up, rather than go deeper. It rises up in one of the wells, and from there it is pumped into the ocean, before it overflows. In other words, it is carried around the contaminated soil area in pipes, rather than percolating through it. They are also building a steel wall below the plant, between the plant and the ocean. This seems like a lost cause to me. There is no way you can retain the groundwater. As I said, everywhere is Japan and especially near the ocean there are streams of groundwater. It gushes out year round. Here is an ancient wall in Yamaguchi that I am quite familiar with: http://blog.goo.ne.jp/j86ku86uk01/e/0322424ce1445b6d6c1c49f0520a8d20 These walls were completed around 1340 (early Muromachi era). They are still in use. They call for a lot of maintenance. You can see they have large gaps for drainage. Here are some other photos of that wall complex, and one showing a nearby waterfall (3rd photo from the bottom) with water gushing out, and also a picnic lunch (??) including wild boar meat: http://ameblo.jp/wayb-ceo/entry-10493896010.html Not radioactive boar. Boars and bears are everywhere in Japan these days. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Fukushima on Ice
In reply to David Roberson's message of Thu, 5 Sep 2013 20:03:44 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] The plan sounds interesting, but as we all know, there are many unknowns. Water will find a way to move in other directions if at all possible. I can imagine that some will find its way to the surface if being pushed from behind. I suspect that there will be more chapters to this book before it is completed. Indeed. Apparently I had misunderstood the intended purpose, yet the concept of my objection remains valid, as you show. BTW it might be simpler to just install a pipe with it's mouth farther up hill than the wall (but buried well below the surface), and the lower end in the ocean. It would provide a low resistance drain for the ground water, and obviate the need for pumping. Dave Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Fukushima on Ice
mix...@bigpond.com wrote: BTW it might be simpler to just install a pipe with it's mouth farther up hill than the wall (but buried well below the surface), and the lower end in the ocean. It would provide a low resistance drain for the ground water, and obviate the need for pumping. Some people I know in Japan in the countryside get their running water by that method. You don't even need a deep well or pump, because there is so much groundwater and the hills are so steep. You find a spring a good distance uphill in the woods behind the house and put in PV pipes. The water pouring out of the those stone walls in those photos I linked to is pure, cold and delicious. I used to go jogging 4 miles or so along that road. I would let the water pour over me when I got hot, and drink it. I would not drink the run-off from an orange grove or field, but contamination is not a problem when the water comes out of the woods. There are thousands of acres of wild woods on hills too steep to farm above most small Japanese towns. Nobody sprays pesticide up there. The nation is said to be overpopulated but it does not feel that way in the countryside. In the woods shown in those photos people sometimes wander off and are never seen again, especially elderly people. You can walk up there for hours and not see another person. In the case of Fukushima plant, however, there is not much of a grade behind the ice wall, so they will need wells and pumps. I do not think the energy cost from the pumping will be high. Keeping the wall frozen is what will take a lot of energy. - Jed
