RE: Mandatory Vaccinations? Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
[John gave me his permission to re-post to the whole group the follow-up to my earlier question to him regarding primary sources.} I understand that a primary source for the assertion may not exist, which is why I am asking for it. Much of what is sent around on the Net is invented for pernicious purposes, and when one probes no more than one layer down, proves itself to be such. Does it not concern you that people will assume when you post something that, short of a disclaimer on your part, you are endorsing these assertions? My sense is that one's credibility on-line is directly connected to the quality of the comments we post. Cheers, Lawrence From: John Berry [mailto:aethe...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 4:00 AM To: debiv...@evolutionaryservices.org Subject: Re: Mandatory Vaccinations? Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder Find a different one to take issue with, one to do with the current situation. I got some of it including that from: http://www.rense.com/general86/whdo.htm Though it has no more detail. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 2:42 PM, Lawrence de Bivort debiv...@evolutionaryservices.org wrote: I love this stuff! Let's take one assertion at random: The WHO in 1985 documented that one of its' primary goals for the use of a sterility vaccine disguised as a smallpox vaccine was to eliminate 150 million excess Sub Saharan Africans. (Fact, 1985-ongoing) Please provide your primary source documentation for this assertion. Thanks.
RE: Mandatory Vaccinations? Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
I love this stuff! Let's take one assertion at random: The WHO in 1985 documented that one of its' primary goals for the use of a sterility vaccine disguised as a smallpox vaccine was to eliminate 150 million excess Sub Saharan Africans. (Fact, 1985-ongoing) Please provide your primary source documentation for this assertion. Thanks. _ From: John Berry [mailto:aethe...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 9:45 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Mandatory Vaccinations? Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder The Vaccine exists and will soon be trialed (note: different versions will exist!): http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/07/22/swine.flu.vaccine.trials/index.htm l http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/07/22/swine.flu.vaccine.trials/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/07/28/military.swine.flu/ WHO recommends every country to make vaccine mandatory: http://www.naturalnews.com/026723_health_vaccines_immune_system.html Military will help: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/07/28/military.swine.flu/ Obama believes in mandatory vaccinations: One of the rallying parents, ...Ms. Liss said, Senator Obama, those people rallying outside are with me. And we want to know if you will reform federal vaccine policy. Will you come out to speak with us? His immediate and direct reply stunned Ms. Liss: I am not for selective vaccination. According to the Centers for Disease Control, there will be no exemptions. A certain amount of human wastage is expected. With the declaration earlier this month by the World Health Organization (WHO) that the swine flu has reached pandemic Level 6 (they had to change the definition of level 6 to make this determination work), a whole series of bureaucratic prerogatives have been triggered, and local, state, national, and international agencies have been further empowered. In the U.S., all laws and conditions are now in place to see to it that you are forced to be injected with the new swine flu vaccine, whether you want to be or not. In the U.S., the government is now able to mandate universal mass vaccinations at gunpoint. According to the Centers for Disease Control, there will be no exemptions. A certain amount of human wastage is expected. 3 Polish doctors and 6 nurses are facing murder charges 1. An informal [e.g., illegal] clinical trial of the Avian Flu vaccine on about 200 Polish vagrants resulted in 11 immediate deaths and an additional set of 20 later deaths (approximately 15% of the test population). The doctors and nurses involved were charged with murder. (Fact. 2008) In another incident a Baxter product was found to be accidentally contaminated. Baxter International Inc. was in the process of applying for a contract to provide Avian Flu vaccines to European countries in the event of an Avian Flu epidemic. Its Austrian laboratory shipped Seasonal Flu vaccines to 18 countries in Europe. A laboratory technician tested the Baxter Seasonal Flu vaccines sent to the Czech Republic on some ferrets killing them and discovered that they were contaminated with a highly pathogenic version of the Avian Flu, 72 Kilograms of it, although Level 3 precautions were in place and such contamination could not have happened accidentally according to experts in the field. No documentation of the destruction of this highly infective material has been provided although the Austrian Health Ministry insists that the deadly viral material was destroyed. (Fact 2008, 2009) A WHO investigation into the Baxter contaminated vaccine issue resulted in NO findings and in NO disciplinary actions. An Austrian investigation into the same events yielded the same results. (Fact, 2009) Baxter has been rewarded with a lead role in developing, producing and disseminating the Swine Flu vaccine for the upcoming pandemic. (Fact, 2009) Only 16 deaths initially: Swine Flu was first identified to the public as a serious problem in April/May 2009 when 168 persons in Mexico were confirmed by CDC and WHO to have died from the Swine Flu. This number was later revised downward to only 16 deaths. (Fact, 2009) The Philippine High Court convicted WHO (The World Health Organization) of involuntarily sterilizing over 3 million Philippina women through the use of vaccines. (Fact) The WHO in 1985 documented that one of its' primary goals for the use of a sterility vaccine disguised as a smallpox vaccine was to eliminate 150 million excess Sub Saharan Africans. (Fact, 1985-ongoing) The WHO 5-shot vaccine programs for tetanus in third world countries in South and Central America caused the involuntary sterilization of millions of women. (Fact, ongoing) Monsanto's MON 810 corn causes sterility according to studies published by the Austrian Government. Monsanto's MON 810 corn contains the Cauliflower Mosaic Virus which, when ingested, lowers the bodies CD 4 cells
Re: Mandatory Vaccinations? Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
John Berry wrote: *The Vaccine exists and will soon be trialed* (note: different versions will exist!): http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/07/22/swine.flu.vaccine.trials/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/07/28/military.swine.flu/*WHO recommends every country to make vaccine mandatory*: http://www.naturalnews.com/026723_health_vaccines_immune_system.html The leadin paragraph asserts that WHO recommends making it mandatory, but none of the quotes from WHO people in body of the article support the claim, nor do they make it sound even slightly plausible, as WHO is saying there won't be enough for everybody anyway. Mandatory seems to apply to the requirement that all countries make it available, not that all individuals will be forced to accept it. Ho, hum...
Re: Mandatory Vaccinations? Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
John Berry wrote: *Military will help*: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/07/28/military.swine.flu/ They are clearly preparing for the *possibility* (unlikely as it seems) of 1918-all-over-again. If that were to happen, the military's help would be needed and appreciated. In Philadelphia the coffins were stacked by the curbs because there were too few healthy gravediggers left to bury the bodies in a timely fashion -- my father remembered it, though he was only 7 at the time. It was a mess. A coordinated response including all available (military) personnel might have helped. One of the government's jobs is to try to prepare for stuff like that, so that *if* it happens, they can do something useful about it. (Their lack of preparation for Katrina was an example of the *opposite* of what they're supposed to do.) And, it seems, one of the jobs of the press is to hysterically report every move made by the government in such a situation as though (a) it means we're about to have martial law and all freethinkers will be shot, or (b) it means there is an imminent total disaster and the worst-case scenario for which the gummint is preparing is actually the *most* *likely* scenario.
Re: Mandatory Vaccinations? Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
BB *This* journalist nominates this thread for relocation elsewhere. Puhleeze. SK
Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
John Berry wrote: I absolutely believe that there have been many cases where vaccines kill more than they saved. I have read many books about public health, and I know of no evidence for this assertion. Where did you get this information? That is not the same as saying all vaccines have or that any one vaccine has (though I am not ruling it out) but yes I solidly believe that some applications of some vaccines have been mostly/entirely pointless and yet killed people. If you solidly believe this, where is your solid evidence? There are also arguments that most/all of the deaths from Spanish flu were the results of vaccines, a quick search pulls up this page which I have not read: http://www.whale.to/vaccine/sf1.htmlhttp://www.whale.to/vaccine/sf1.html No doubt many more exist on the subject. There were no vaccines for influenza in 1918. Virology was just beginning, and the influenza virus was not discovered until much later. No doubt many web pages like this exist, but they have no scientific merit. You can find many web pages declaring that cold fusion does not exist, and others that claim evolution does not occur. Finding a web page or book with claim does not make the claim valid. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
John Berry wrote: Short version, Swine Flu is not especially deadly and compared to the numbers killed by regular flu it isn't a concern . . . Influenza is always a concern. It kills 30,000 to 50,000 people in a normal year, and ~200,000 when a relatively new variety appears. This one is likely to kill far more than the usual number, especially younger people. Fortunately it probably evolved from a human variety that went to pigs and then came back, so it is not too bad. A variety that humans have not been exposed to, such as the 1918 influenza, kills far more people. The 1918 epidemic killed roughly twice as many people as World War I did, including many more healthy young people than normal. The proximate cause of death was an allergic reaction that was far more powerful in healthy young people than elderly people. If the H1N1 virus has this same tendency, which still seems likely, it would be prudent to stock up unusually large numbers of vaccines. According to the Centers for Disease Control, there will be no exemptions. A certain amount of human wastage is expected. As Lawrence de Bivort pointed out, this is nonsense, and this message is propaganda. I doubt any expert mentioned human wastage but all experts know that all vaccines always carry some risk. Indeed, all medical interventions of any kind have some level of risk, including treatment for hangnails. Every vaccine kills or disables some number of people, but the number is far lower than the number who would die without the vaccine. If you are at risk for serious influenza it is highly irrational not to get the vaccine. This is like saying you will drive 600 miles rather than taking an airplane because airplanes sometime crash. They do, of course, but the fatality rate per passenger mile is far lower than for cars. I wasn't kidding about hangnails. You have to fill in medical forms saying you will not sue if the local anesthetic kills or disables you. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
While what you say is true, Jed, not all vaccines are equally safe or effective, especially when it involves influenza. In my case, I got a flu shot a few years ago and suffered from a sore shoulder for months and still got the flu. I find that certain natural immune enhances and antiviral potions work well and make the flu much easer to take. The issue in the present case is the unproven effectiveness and safely of the vaccine because it is being rushed into production. Personally, I would rather wait to see how many people suffer from the shot and how many people get the flu before I take the risk. Besides, I resent the government telling me to do anything because their advice is always bad in the long run. Ed On Jun 29, 2009, at 8:48 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: John Berry wrote: Short version, Swine Flu is not especially deadly and compared to the numbers killed by regular flu it isn't a concern . . . Influenza is always a concern. It kills 30,000 to 50,000 people in a normal year, and ~200,000 when a relatively new variety appears. This one is likely to kill far more than the usual number, especially younger people. Fortunately it probably evolved from a human variety that went to pigs and then came back, so it is not too bad. A variety that humans have not been exposed to, such as the 1918 influenza, kills far more people. The 1918 epidemic killed roughly twice as many people as World War I did, including many more healthy young people than normal. The proximate cause of death was an allergic reaction that was far more powerful in healthy young people than elderly people. If the H1N1 virus has this same tendency, which still seems likely, it would be prudent to stock up unusually large numbers of vaccines. According to the Centers for Disease Control, there will be no exemptions. A certain amount of human wastage is expected. As Lawrence de Bivort pointed out, this is nonsense, and this message is propaganda. I doubt any expert mentioned human wastage but all experts know that all vaccines always carry some risk. Indeed, all medical interventions of any kind have some level of risk, including treatment for hangnails. Every vaccine kills or disables some number of people, but the number is far lower than the number who would die without the vaccine. If you are at risk for serious influenza it is highly irrational not to get the vaccine. This is like saying you will drive 600 miles rather than taking an airplane because airplanes sometime crash. They do, of course, but the fatality rate per passenger mile is far lower than for cars. I wasn't kidding about hangnails. You have to fill in medical forms saying you will not sue if the local anesthetic kills or disables you. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
Edmund Storms wrote: While what you say is true, Jed, not all vaccines are equally safe or effective, especially when it involves influenza. Absolutely! The 1976 swine flu vaccines were spectacularly ineffective and dangerous. Personally, I would rather wait to see how many people suffer from the shot and how many people get the flu before I take the risk. That's wise but unfair. If everyone did what you are doing, no one would go first. You are letting other people act as guinea pigs, taking the risk for you, like collective food tasters. Since you -- Ed Storms -- are more valuable to society than most people, I approve, but it is ethically questionable. Besides, I resent the government telling me to do anything because their advice is always bad in the long run. That's a preposterous thing to say. Generally speaking, despite some well known exceptions, the U.S. government is one of the most knowledgeable, fair and effective organizations in history. Organizations such as the NIH and the CDC here in a Atlanta have made the largest and best contributions to public health in the world, bar none. The government directly invented or paid for most of the top technological breakthroughs of the 20th century in public health, and also for things such as aviation, lasers, computers and the Internet. It has done more for cold fusion than all private industry in the world combined. Of course the DoE has been dysfunctional with regard to cold fusion, but nowhere near as dysfunctional as, say, General Motors, General Electric or Hitachi. These corporations should have invested hundreds of billions in cold fusion by now, but as far as I know they have done nothing. People say they are only following the lead of the DoE and the APS, but they pay no attention to the DoE with regard to things like plasma fusion, so I do not think we can blame their inaction with regard to cold fusion on the DoE. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
On Jun 29, 2009, at 11:50 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Edmund Storms wrote: While what you say is true, Jed, not all vaccines are equally safe or effective, especially when it involves influenza. Absolutely! The 1976 swine flu vaccines were spectacularly ineffective and dangerous. Personally, I would rather wait to see how many people suffer from the shot and how many people get the flu before I take the risk. That's wise but unfair. If everyone did what you are doing, no one would go first. You are letting other people act as guinea pigs, taking the risk for you, like collective food tasters. Since you -- Ed Storms -- are more valuable to society than most people, I approve, but it is ethically questionable. That's an interesting approach to ethics. Everyone has a choice to be first in line or to wait until the path is more clear. For example, many serious operations had a high mortality rate initially. This was reduced by people choosing to be first, which allowed the mistakes to be corrected. Are the people who waited, provided the affliction allowed a wait, unethical? Besides, I resent the government telling me to do anything because their advice is always bad in the long run. That's a preposterous thing to say. Generally speaking, despite some well known exceptions, the U.S. government is one of the most knowledgeable, fair and effective organizations in history. Organizations such as the NIH and the CDC here in a Atlanta have made the largest and best contributions to public health in the world, bar none. The government directly invented or paid for most of the top technological breakthroughs of the 20th century in public health, and also for things such as aviation, lasers, computers and the Internet. It has done more for cold fusion than all private industry in the world combined. Here are a few of the bigger lies. The government said that invading Iraq was necessary and people should join the military to protect the country. This was a lie and over 4000 of the people who took this advice are dead and many more are handicapped for life. The government said that people should spend as much as possible and they would get richer by taking out the equity in their homes by assuming larger mortgages. This was a lie and now many of these people are homeless. The government has said that drilling for oil offshore and in the Alaska wilderness is the best way to solve the energy problem. This was a lie. Now we are in a no win situation where oil is too expensive for the average person and too cheap to justify further drilling. It remains to be seen how many of the statements about the economic recovery are also lies. Meanwhile people are investing as if a recovery is underway based on government information. Even the claimed unemployment rate is a lie. I could go on, but you can see that some really big lies, along with many smaller ones I have ignored, have been told. As for the US being one of the most knowledgeable, fair and effective organizations in history, I need only remind you that it was the failure of the US government to control the financial system in the US that has caused the greatest loss of wealth in the history of mankind and the process is not finished. The consequences of this monumental incompetence are slowing developing and will be catastrophic. The US government has some good points, but it also has some really bad characteristics. No government is perfect, but the evaluation must rest on how the actions of the government affect its citizens and the world. The US government talks a good line, but its actions leave a lot to be desired. But, I need to stop because this is politics and is a forbidden subject here. Ed Of course the DoE has been dysfunctional with regard to cold fusion, but nowhere near as dysfunctional as, say, General Motors, General Electric or Hitachi. These corporations should have invested hundreds of billions in cold fusion by now, but as far as I know they have done nothing. People say they are only following the lead of the DoE and the APS, but they pay no attention to the DoE with regard to things like plasma fusion, so I do not think we can blame their inaction with regard to cold fusion on the DoE. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
Edmund Storms wrote: That's wise but unfair. If everyone did what you are doing, no one would go first. You are letting other people act as guinea pigs, taking the risk for you, like collective food tasters. That's an interesting approach to ethics. Everyone has a choice to be first in line or to wait until the path is more clear. For example, many serious operations had a high mortality rate initially. Ah, but with vaccines the situation is radically different. You get nearly all the benefit of the vaccine even when you do not take it. Because large numbers of other people are vaccinated your chances of getting the flu are reduced. US mortality from influenza is around 50,000 per year as I mentioned. If there were no vaccines it would be in the hundreds of thousands. Vaccines only work as a firebreak because a large fraction of the population is willing to take them. Of course the people who get vaccinated also benefit directly since they are unlikely to get the disease. Here are a few of the bigger lies. The government said that invading Iraq was necessary and people should join the military to protect the country. I did not assert that the US government is without fault. Even if we confine the discussion to technology, I can list several dozen technologies supported by the government that went nowhere, such as oil shale and -- obviously -- plasma fusion. The government said that people should spend as much as possible and they would get richer by taking out the equity in their homes by assuming larger mortgages. This was a lie and now many of these people are homeless. The government and the home loan industry both said this. The home loan industry not only said, many banks and other organizations went to extremes in lending, and failed to practice due diligence, for example when they lent large sums to dead people. The government did not do this. (These banks are nearly all bankrupt, or de facto bankrupt as is AIG.) The government has said that drilling for oil offshore and in the Alaska wilderness is the best way to solve the energy problem. On the contrary, the government has opposed this. Industry has been saying this. I believe the government's opinion has prevailed so far: there is no offshore drilling in the Alaska wilderness. It remains to be seen how many of the statements about the economic recovery are also lies. That remains to be seen. Many experts say that compared to the situation in Japan in the 1990s, which started out similar to our situation, things seem promising. I wouldn't know, but that is what K. Nishimura said the other day. He is the deputy director of the Bank of Japan and the top economist trained at Yale University. I suppose he would know. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
From Ed Storms: I could go on, but you can see that some really big lies, along with many smaller ones I have ignored, have been told. As for the US being one of the most knowledgeable, fair and effective organizations in history, I need only remind you that it was the failure of the US government to control the financial system in the US that has caused the greatest loss of wealth in the history of mankind and the process is not finished. The consequences of this monumental incompetence are slowing developing and will be catastrophic. The US government has some good points, but it also has some really bad characteristics. No government is perfect, but the evaluation must rest on how the actions of the government affect its citizens and the world. The US government talks a good line, but its actions leave a lot to be desired. But, I need to stop because this is politics and is a forbidden subject here. Like any government we do have our flaws. OTOH, there certainly are worse places to live, considering the aftermath of recent elections in a well known middle eastern country. If it wasn't for Twitter and Facebook I wonder what we'd really know was going on over there. Regarding discussions of forbidden subject material, particularly politics, I personally doubt your alleged transgression will cause another grass roots upwelling, an insurgency within the Vort Collective resulting in new demands for elections. At worst, your offense will be perceived as nothing more than an annoying rant by certain Vort purists, while others more sympathetic will simply nod in agreement. Since he-who-shall-remain-nameless has been banned from posting his one-sided political potshots within Vortex-l proper, it seems to me that the occasional business of discussing religion and politics is in the process of once again reestablishing itself, more or less, as a necessary evil, an evil that helps clarify the complexities of the world we live in. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
There are a number of things I disagree with (including Spanish flu) but the only one i can be bothered with is your claim that it always helps more than it harms. In New Zealand there was a tainted polio vaccine and they knew it was but used it anyway, I don't know how many died but my mother had 3 close friends die. And polio had not been a problem for years and never was, there is no reason to believe it would have come back. On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:48 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: John Berry wrote: Short version, Swine Flu is not especially deadly and compared to the numbers killed by regular flu it isn't a concern . . . Influenza is always a concern. It kills 30,000 to 50,000 people in a normal year, and ~200,000 when a relatively new variety appears. This one is likely to kill far more than the usual number, especially younger people. Fortunately it probably evolved from a human variety that went to pigs and then came back, so it is not too bad. A variety that humans have not been exposed to, such as the 1918 influenza, kills far more people. The 1918 epidemic killed roughly twice as many people as World War I did, including many more healthy young people than normal. The proximate cause of death was an allergic reaction that was far more powerful in healthy young people than elderly people. If the H1N1 virus has this same tendency, which still seems likely, it would be prudent to stock up unusually large numbers of vaccines. According to the Centers for Disease Control, there will be no exemptions. A certain amount of human wastage is expected. As Lawrence de Bivort pointed out, this is nonsense, and this message is propaganda. I doubt any expert mentioned human wastage but all experts know that all vaccines always carry some risk. Indeed, all medical interventions of any kind have some level of risk, including treatment for hangnails. Every vaccine kills or disables some number of people, but the number is far lower than the number who would die without the vaccine. If you are at risk for serious influenza it is highly irrational not to get the vaccine. This is like saying you will drive 600 miles rather than taking an airplane because airplanes sometime crash. They do, of course, but the fatality rate per passenger mile is far lower than for cars. I wasn't kidding about hangnails. You have to fill in medical forms saying you will not sue if the local anesthetic kills or disables you. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
That is getting a bit too close to politics, I know because I wanted to make a political reply regarding elections... On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 6:55 AM, OrionWorks svj.orionwo...@gmail.comwrote: From Ed Storms: I could go on, but you can see that some really big lies, along with many smaller ones I have ignored, have been told. As for the US being one of the most knowledgeable, fair and effective organizations in history, I need only remind you that it was the failure of the US government to control the financial system in the US that has caused the greatest loss of wealth in the history of mankind and the process is not finished. The consequences of this monumental incompetence are slowing developing and will be catastrophic. The US government has some good points, but it also has some really bad characteristics. No government is perfect, but the evaluation must rest on how the actions of the government affect its citizens and the world. The US government talks a good line, but its actions leave a lot to be desired. But, I need to stop because this is politics and is a forbidden subject here. Like any government we do have our flaws. OTOH, there certainly are worse places to live, considering the aftermath of recent elections in a well known middle eastern country. If it wasn't for Twitter and Facebook I wonder what we'd really know was going on over there. Regarding discussions of forbidden subject material, particularly politics, I personally doubt your alleged transgression will cause another grass roots upwelling, an insurgency within the Vort Collective resulting in new demands for elections. At worst, your offense will be perceived as nothing more than an annoying rant by certain Vort purists, while others more sympathetic will simply nod in agreement. Since he-who-shall-remain-nameless has been banned from posting his one-sided political potshots within Vortex-l proper, it seems to me that the occasional business of discussing religion and politics is in the process of once again reestablishing itself, more or less, as a necessary evil, an evil that helps clarify the complexities of the world we live in. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
John Berry wrote: There are a number of things I disagree with (including Spanish flu) but the only one i can be bothered with is your claim that it always helps more than it harms. I did not say that. On the contrary, I said there are some examples of spectacular failure such as the 1976 swine flu vaccine. Overall and in general, however, vaccines help FAR MORE often than they fail. You have to be careful with assertions about safety and statistics. This stuff gets complicated. There are situations that are highly binary: nearly perfect safety or zero safety. Air travel safety is almost 100% assured but on rare occasions such as the Air France crash the other day a minor problem such as a plugged up Pitot gauge causes massive failure and 100% fatalities. It is hard to grasp that concept. (A Pitot tube is an example of 18th century technology still at work playing a major role on the most advanced machinery on earth.) Vaccinations are incredibly safe and effective and yet we can be certain that every year they will kill some small number of people. Tricky statistical concepts like this often interfere with discussions of cold fusion. For example the notion that an effect should be reproducible gets all mixed up with the idea that it should work 100% of the time, even in the minds of professional scientists such as Garwin, on 60 Minutes. The two concepts are completely separate. In fact, 0.001 reproducibility would be fine, and totally convincing if you could conveniently repeat the experiment 1,000,000 times in one test, say with an array of 1000 x 1000 microscopic test cells. This is why the BARC titanium chip test is convincing even though only one or two out of thousands of chips became radioactive. It even convinced Morrison, who witnessed the test, which is why he refused to say word about it. Getting back to the example of vaccines, you can say it is a 100% reproducible effect that we will kill someone with a flu vaccine. It is a sure thing. And yet you don't need to worry about it personally. It is difficult to believe both those concepts at the same time. To give a nod example, even I am willing to buy a lottery ticket knowing full well that it has roughly as much chance of winning as the chance that a vaccine will kill me. It is irrational, but there it is. On a related thought, consider how many people would be willing to buy a lottery ticket if it came with a binary award (two possible awards), both with typical 1 in 100 million odds: either you win $1 billion or they take you out and shoot you. I'll bet no one would buy a ticket. Even though, of course, we face much worse odds driving a car a few miles on any highway, and the reward for driving on a highway on one trip is much smaller than $1 billion. In New Zealand there was a tainted polio vaccine and they knew it was but used it anyway, I don't know how many died but my mother had 3 close friends die. Yes, this sort of thing happens. Just as airplanes sometimes crash despite our best effort to prevent it. No one should imagine that vaccines or any other medical technology is completely reliable or danger free. And polio had not been a problem for years and never was, there is no reason to believe it would have come back. Well, actually there is, but there shouldn't be. The problem should have been fixed decades ago, with the complete extinction of the virus as was done with smallpox. It is an incredible failure of world public health. Antibiotic resistant tuberculosis is even worse. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
I didn't read the second post from you when I wrote that, however you did say: Every vaccine kills or disables some number of people, but the number is far lower than the number who would die without the vaccine. Since you have now said that that is not always the case I guess we can just forget that. On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: John Berry wrote: There are a number of things I disagree with (including Spanish flu) but the only one i can be bothered with is your claim that it always helps more than it harms. I did not say that. On the contrary, I said there are some examples of spectacular failure such as the 1976 swine flu vaccine. Overall and in general, however, vaccines help FAR MORE often than they fail. You have to be careful with assertions about safety and statistics. This stuff gets complicated. There are situations that are highly binary: nearly perfect safety or zero safety. Air travel safety is almost 100% assured but on rare occasions such as the Air France crash the other day a minor problem such as a plugged up Pitot gauge causes massive failure and 100% fatalities. It is hard to grasp that concept. (A Pitot tube is an example of 18th century technology still at work playing a major role on the most advanced machinery on earth.) Vaccinations are incredibly safe and effective and yet we can be certain that every year they will kill some small number of people. Tricky statistical concepts like this often interfere with discussions of cold fusion. For example the notion that an effect should be reproducible gets all mixed up with the idea that it should work 100% of the time, even in the minds of professional scientists such as Garwin, on 60 Minutes. The two concepts are completely separate. In fact, 0.001 reproducibility would be fine, and totally convincing if you could conveniently repeat the experiment 1,000,000 times in one test, say with an array of 1000 x 1000 microscopic test cells. This is why the BARC titanium chip test is convincing even though only one or two out of thousands of chips became radioactive. It even convinced Morrison, who witnessed the test, which is why he refused to say word about it. Getting back to the example of vaccines, you can say it is a 100% reproducible effect that we will kill someone with a flu vaccine. It is a sure thing. And yet you don't need to worry about it personally. It is difficult to believe both those concepts at the same time. To give a nod example, even I am willing to buy a lottery ticket knowing full well that it has roughly as much chance of winning as the chance that a vaccine will kill me. It is irrational, but there it is. On a related thought, consider how many people would be willing to buy a lottery ticket if it came with a binary award (two possible awards), both with typical 1 in 100 million odds: either you win $1 billion or they take you out and shoot you. I'll bet no one would buy a ticket. Even though, of course, we face much worse odds driving a car a few miles on any highway, and the reward for driving on a highway on one trip is much smaller than $1 billion. In New Zealand there was a tainted polio vaccine and they knew it was but used it anyway, I don't know how many died but my mother had 3 close friends die. Yes, this sort of thing happens. Just as airplanes sometimes crash despite our best effort to prevent it. No one should imagine that vaccines or any other medical technology is completely reliable or danger free. And polio had not been a problem for years and never was, there is no reason to believe it would have come back. Well, actually there is, but there shouldn't be. The problem should have been fixed decades ago, with the complete extinction of the virus as was done with smallpox. It is an incredible failure of world public health. Antibiotic resistant tuberculosis is even worse. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
John Berry wrote: I didn't read the second post from you when I wrote that, however you did say: Every vaccine kills or disables some number of people, but the number is far lower than the number who would die without the vaccine. Since you have now said that that is not always the case I guess we can just forget that. You seem to be implying that in some cases vaccines do more harm than good. That's not what I meant. There are spectacular failures in the sense that some vaccines kill or disable more people than expected, and are withdrawn. That's what happened with the 1976 swine flu vaccine. However, as far as I know, there is no case in recorded history in which the vaccine actually killed more people than it saved. Other widely-used medical interventions in recent history have actually killed more people than they helped. A good example is hormone replaced for post-menopausal women. This was thought to be marginally beneficial but it turned out be actually harmful. There is a huge debate about measuring the effectiveness of medical treatments as part of the health care reforms. Many treatments are marginal or questionable (possibly bad). However, public health measures such as vaccination have much more clear-cut positive effects. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
I absolutely believe that there have been many cases where vaccines kill more than they saved. That is not the same as saying all vaccines have or that any one vaccine has (though I am not ruling it out) but yes I solidly believe that some applications of some vaccines have been mostly/entirely pointless and yet killed people. That is my belief and I believe I could present more evidence of this but honestly I have better things to put my attention on. There are also arguments that most/all of the deaths from Spanish flu were the results of vaccines, a quick search pulls up this page which I have not read: http://www.whale.to/vaccine/sf1.html No doubt many more exist on the subject. Personally I'd rather talk about physics/energy/antigravity. On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: John Berry wrote: I didn't read the second post from you when I wrote that, however you did say: Every vaccine kills or disables some number of people, but the number is far lower than the number who would die without the vaccine. Since you have now said that that is not always the case I guess we can just forget that. You seem to be implying that in some cases vaccines do more harm than good. That's not what I meant. There are spectacular failures in the sense that some vaccines kill or disable more people than expected, and are withdrawn. That's what happened with the 1976 swine flu vaccine. However, as far as I know, there is no case in recorded history in which the vaccine actually killed more people than it saved. Other widely-used medical interventions in recent history have actually killed more people than they helped. A good example is hormone replaced for post-menopausal women. This was thought to be marginally beneficial but it turned out be actually harmful. There is a huge debate about measuring the effectiveness of medical treatments as part of the health care reforms. Many treatments are marginal or questionable (possibly bad). However, public health measures such as vaccination have much more clear-cut positive effects. - Jed
[Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
I don't think this can be considered political as no one votes for the UN or WHO and it's a health warning not a discussion or about political view points. Short version, Swine Flu is not especially deadly and compared to the numbers killed by regular flu it isn't a concern especially as large numbers have been infected and recovered and like the normal flu it is only those who have compromised immune systems that have died apparently. Baxter, the company making a vaccine that will seemingly be forced on people: According to the Centers for Disease Control, there will be no exemptions. A certain amount of human wastage is expected. And They were recently caught putting live viruses in vaccines. The ingredients of vaccines and risks associated with many are bad enough but this looks very bad. As the anticipated July release date for Baxter’s A/H1N1 flu pandemic vaccine approaches, an Austrian investigative journalist is warning the world that the greatest crime in the history of humanity is underway. Jane Burgermeister has recently filed criminal charges with the FBI against the World Health Organization (WHO), the United Nations (UN), and several of the highest ranking government and corporate officials concerning bioterrorism and attempts to commit mass murder. She has also prepared an injunction against forced vaccination which is being filed in America. These actions follow her charges filed in April against Baxter AG and Avir Green Hills Biotechnology of Austria for producing contaminated bird flu vaccine, alleging this was a deliberate act to cause and profit from a pandemic. Summary of claims and allegations filed with FBI in Austria on June 10, 2009 http://www.naturalnews.com/026503_pandemic_swine_flu_bioterrorism.html
Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
How do they plan to enforce delivery of the vaccine? Personally, the police would have to come to my door and restrain me. How about you? Ed On Jun 26, 2009, at 4:20 PM, John Berry wrote: I don't think this can be considered political as no one votes for the UN or WHO and it's a health warning not a discussion or about political view points. Short version, Swine Flu is not especially deadly and compared to the numbers killed by regular flu it isn't a concern especially as large numbers have been infected and recovered and like the normal flu it is only those who have compromised immune systems that have died apparently. Baxter, the company making a vaccine that will seemingly be forced on people: According to the Centers for Disease Control, there will be no exemptions. A certain amount of human wastage is expected. And They were recently caught putting live viruses in vaccines. The ingredients of vaccines and risks associated with many are bad enough but this looks very bad. As the anticipated July release date for Baxter’s A/H1N1 flu pandemic vaccine approaches, an Austrian investigative journalist is warning the world that the greatest crime in the history of humanity is underway. Jane Burgermeister has recently filed criminal charges with the FBI against the World Health Organization (WHO), the United Nations (UN), and several of the highest ranking government and corporate officials concerning bioterrorism and attempts to commit mass murder. She has also prepared an injunction against forced vaccination which is being filed in America. These actions follow her charges filed in April against Baxter AG and Avir Green Hills Biotechnology of Austria for producing contaminated bird flu vaccine, alleging this was a deliberate act to cause and profit from a pandemic. Summary of claims and allegations filed with FBI in Austria on June 10, 2009 http://www.naturalnews.com/026503_pandemic_swine_flu_bioterrorism.html
Re: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
I'd have already headed for the hills... On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: How do they plan to enforce delivery of the vaccine? Personally, the police would have to come to my door and restrain me. How about you? Ed On Jun 26, 2009, at 4:20 PM, John Berry wrote: I don't think this can be considered political as no one votes for the UN or WHO and it's a health warning not a discussion or about political view points. Short version, Swine Flu is not especially deadly and compared to the numbers killed by regular flu it isn't a concern especially as large numbers have been infected and recovered and like the normal flu it is only those who have compromised immune systems that have died apparently. Baxter, the company making a vaccine that will seemingly be forced on people: According to the Centers for Disease Control, there will be no exemptions. A certain amount of human wastage is expected. And They were recently caught putting live viruses in vaccines. The ingredients of vaccines and risks associated with many are bad enough but this looks very bad. As the anticipated July release date for Baxter’s A/H1N1 flu pandemic vaccine approaches, an Austrian investigative journalist is warning the world that the greatest crime in the history of humanity is underway. Jane Burgermeister has recently filed criminal charges with the FBI against the World Health Organization (WHO), the United Nations (UN), and several of the highest ranking government and corporate officials concerning bioterrorism and attempts to commit mass murder. She has also prepared an injunction against forced vaccination which is being filed in America. These actions follow her charges filed in April against Baxter AG and Avir Green Hills Biotechnology of Austria for producing contaminated bird flu vaccine, alleging this was a deliberate act to cause and profit from a pandemic. Summary of claims and allegations filed with FBI in Austria on June 10, 2009 http://www.naturalnews.com/026503_pandemic_swine_flu_bioterrorism.html
RE: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
This sounds like another run-of-the-mill scare-story to me. 1. There is no 'forced-vaccination' program being proposed. 2. The use of live virus in the making of vaccines is routine. Some vaccines, like the Salk polio vaccine, is made with attenuated live virus. These kinds of vaccines tend to be more effective than those containing 'dead' virus material, such as the Sabin polio vaccine. 3. In any case, the UN does not mandate or not mandate health programs. And, and among its many other activities, WHO only makes non-binding health program recommendations to its member states. 4. In any case, legal complaints such as the one 'described' here don't ever get filed with the FBI. They are filed in court for adjudication, or presented to a prosecutor's office for assessment. 5. The FBI doesn't receive communications from Austrian national in Austria. Any communications to the FBI by an Austrian in Austria would come thought Austria's own police or judicial offices. This story sounds like one of the many that circulate through the Net, designed to scare folks and deliberately omitting the kinds of references and citations that would enable people quickly to check its veracity. For example, just who and when did the CDC make such a statement? If the writer were sincere, it would have been a natural and necessary matter to include such references. In some, the whole thing appears to be nonsense, started by someone who doesn't know much about how the real-world works nor much about vaccines, and whose motives are probably to promote scandal and fear, and who assumes that there are people out there who will be gullible enough to pass it on. Lawrence _ From: John Berry [mailto:aethe...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 6:20 PM To: vortex-l Subject: [Vo]:Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder I don't think this can be considered political as no one votes for the UN or WHO and it's a health warning not a discussion or about political view points. Short version, Swine Flu is not especially deadly and compared to the numbers killed by regular flu it isn't a concern especially as large numbers have been infected and recovered and like the normal flu it is only those who have compromised immune systems that have died apparently. Baxter, the company making a vaccine that will seemingly be forced on people: According to the Centers for Disease Control, there will be no exemptions. A certain amount of human wastage is expected. And They were recently caught putting live viruses in vaccines. The ingredients of vaccines and risks associated with many are bad enough but this looks very bad. As the anticipated July release date for Baxter's A/H1N1 flu pandemic vaccine approaches, an Austrian investigative journalist is warning the world that the greatest crime in the history of humanity is underway. Jane Burgermeister has recently filed criminal charges with the FBI against the World Health Organization (WHO), the United Nations (UN), and several of the highest ranking government and corporate officials concerning bioterrorism and attempts to commit mass murder. She has also prepared an injunction against forced vaccination which is being filed in America. These actions follow her charges filed in April against Baxter AG and Avir Green Hills Biotechnology of Austria for producing contaminated bird flu vaccine, alleging this was a deliberate act to cause and profit from a pandemic. Summary of claims and allegations filed with FBI in Austria on June 10, 2009 http://www.naturalnews.com/026503_pandemic_swine_flu_bioterrorism.html
