Re: [Vo]:Lewan Mats says he never thought the reactor shipped
Jed wrote: No such stage magic tricks exist, or can exist. It is physically impossible. Look, we've had this discussion before, haven't we? It is not only possible, it is easy. Compared to fusing Nickel with Hydrogen its less than child's play. You don't even need a PCM for that - but even if you you used one it would be just standard technology. All you have is Rossi's word and all your unnamed sources (which you trust) have, is Rossi's word. The word of a man you think doesn't have any credibility. I see the point that one would have to judge the claims independently from the man - but as long as the claims haven't been verified independently, you just can't. I don't know what you mean saying It has been done repeatedly thousands of miles from him Defkalion and the guy you know and trust who has seen it but doesn't really have more than the word of somebody who still DOES have some credibility - at least when given the benefit of doubt? I'm tempted to invite you to our lab. They're developing a light PCM solution which we'll integrate into the coolant cycles of our smaller diesel engines in order to help them getting up to operation temperatures on a cold start - replacing the voluminous thermos bottle kind of arrangement we've been using before. When you hear the numbers you'll probably be totally convinced that it must be LENR. Not sure I can find somebody there who's so un-credible as to claim that though. What they WILL tell you, however, is that the coolant reaches up to 107 C under load. Mind you, it never converts to steam but if you used Rossi's math you could easily prove that our diesel engines produce more energy than they consume - a lot more - overunity. Maybe I should invite Sterling Allan instead.
Re: [Vo]:Lewan Mats says he never thought the reactor shipped
Jed wrote: ...tell me the number right here... I AM SORRY BUT THAT NUMBER IIS CONFIDENTIAL. ALL THOSE SNAKES AND CLOWNS OUT THERE. COMPETIITION YOU KNOW. BUT I CAN SHOW YOU THE PCM IN A LARGE HEAVY METAL BOX ON A TABLE AND PUMP WATER THROUGH IT TO MAKE SOME STEAM IN A RUBBER HOSE AND THEN WE CAN CALCULATE THE MEGAJOULES FROM THERE - AND THEN YOU WILL BELIEVE ME. DEAL? Sorry - couldn't resist. Jed, we've been there before. 10,000 cm3 of iron at 1,500 C would easily hold enough energy to heat over 100 liters of water to the boiling point and even vaporize some of it. Some isolation and you've got yourself a monster e-cat. If you prefer a simpler solution, some dry SiO2 would do it, too. Or maybe he used a combination of the two or something completely different (though I guess it's purely thermal storage and that's why he came up with the pre-heating procedure of something probably already pre-heated when the demo starts) - but the point is: it wouldn't even have to be exotic or especially clever. Heck - it may even be nothing like that and all he really does is hiding cables or faking sensors or some such thing. I know you believe such a simple setup is physically impossible - what I don't get is why you believe at the same time that an Italian philosopher has done what people like McKubre can't even dream of. Just going with probabilities here - and I know what I find more likely. And for the record - the PCMs we use are, afaik, nothing special. Last I heard they're experimenting with a chemical company from France, trying to make salt hydrates stable enough for a couple thousand cycles and -60 C. I have no idea what the exact specifications are - probably something like 200j/g or so. Despite that, you're welcome to visiting us of course - if and when you come to Bavaria next time. The plant tour is well renowned for being interesting and worthwhile.
Re: [Vo]:Lewan Mats says he never thought the reactor shipped
Harry wrote: How do you hide 1 cubic meter of iron in the device which was tested? I don't have to. First of all, less than 100 liters of water were heated in the desktop demos - and secondly, 10,000 cm3 are just 10 liters (not 1,000 liters) weighing merely 78kg (not over 7,000). The October 28 demo supposedly heated 3,700 or so liters in 107 modules. 27kg of iron (a slab of 30x20x6cm) per module would have been more than enough (unless I messed up the numbers somewhere along the line). Von: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com An: Yamali Yamali yamaliyam...@yahoo.de Gesendet: 18:28 Freitag, 20.Januar 2012 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Lewan Mats says he never thought the reactor shipped On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Yamali Yamali yamaliyam...@yahoo.de wrote: Jed wrote: ...tell me the number right here... I AM SORRY BUT THAT NUMBER IIS CONFIDENTIAL. ALL THOSE SNAKES AND CLOWNS OUT THERE. COMPETIITION YOU KNOW. BUT I CAN SHOW YOU THE PCM IN A LARGE HEAVY METAL BOX ON A TABLE AND PUMP WATER THROUGH IT TO MAKE SOME STEAM IN A RUBBER HOSE AND THEN WE CAN CALCULATE THE MEGAJOULES FROM THERE - AND THEN YOU WILL BELIEVE ME. DEAL? Sorry - couldn't resist. Jed, we've been there before. 10,000 cm3 of iron at 1,500 C would easily hold enough energy to heat over 100 liters of water to the boiling point and even vaporize some of it. How do you hide 1 cubic meter of iron in the device which was tested? Also it would weigh over 7000kg and break the table it was sitting on. Harry Some isolation and you've got yourself a monster e-cat. If you prefer a simpler solution, some dry SiO2 would do it, too. Or maybe he used a combination of the two or something completely different (though I guess it's purely thermal storage and that's why he came up with the pre-heating procedure of something probably already pre-heated when the demo starts) - but the point is: it wouldn't even have to be exotic or especially clever. Heck - it may even be nothing like that and all he really does is hiding cables or faking sensors or some such thing. I know you believe such a simple setup is physically impossible - what I don't get is why you believe at the same time that an Italian philosopher has done what people like McKubre can't even dream of. Just going with probabilities here - and I know what I find more likely.
Re: [Vo]:Lewan Mats says he never thought the reactor shipped
Only if you assume that all or most of the water has been vaporized to dry steam - and besides, Rossi could have started the demo with the storage already more or less heated up. We don't know. Nobody was there and whitnessed the preparations, afaik. One more thing that doesn't really add up: If you look at the power he's putting in and compare it with the temperature building up, you'll see that significantly more power is consumed than required to heat the water during that phase. Where does it go to? Do LENR reactions genuinely consume heat when they start up? And what chemical or physical or nuclear state do they convert it to? Or is the heat that's NOT immediately consumed by the water simply stored? Von: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com An: Yamali Yamali yamaliyam...@yahoo.de Gesendet: 19:36 Freitag, 20.Januar 2012 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Lewan Mats says he never thought the reactor shipped If water was being heated the whole time, I think such a scheme would require more electrical energy than was measured. Harry On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: oops i forgot its cubed Harry On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Yamali Yamali yamaliyam...@yahoo.de wrote: Harry wrote: How do you hide 1 cubic meter of iron in the device which was tested? I don't have to. First of all, less than 100 liters of water were heated in the desktop demos - and secondly, 10,000 cm3 are just 10 liters (not 1,000 liters) weighing merely 78kg (not over 7,000). The October 28 demo supposedly heated 3,700 or so liters in 107 modules. 27kg of iron (a slab of 30x20x6cm) per module would have been more than enough (unless I messed up the numbers somewhere along the line).
[Vo]:Lewan Mats says he never thought the reactor shipped
Mats Lewan is in contact with Rossi from time to time. He told me that Rossi has been telling him all along that: The plant was never shipped but stayed in Bologna where Rossi supposedly continued to work on it together with the undisclosed customer and NI. That has been his impression all along. So Rossi has not been trying to deceive Lewan about this. When Italo R. asked Rossi about the reactor, he responded in a matter-of-fact way Yes, it is the same [machine]. He writes all kinds of things in his blog without thinking. He is sometimes careless. I think people here are making a mountain out of a molehill about this issue. AG is worried that this will hurt Rossi's credibility. I am not worried about that, because Rossi has no credibility. McKubre thinks he does things intentionally to hurt his own credibility. I wouldn't put it past him. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Lewan Mats says he never thought the reactor shipped
Jed Rothwell wrote: ... Rossi has no credibility. ... How can you come this far and still believe his e-cats work and he never faked anything? Haven't we dicussed endlessly how easy that would be? And yet you seem to believe that a guy without any credivility had his one honest moment in life just when it came to what would probably be the greatest breakthroughs in the history of science? I'm... ahh... puzzled.
Re: [Vo]:Lewan Mats says he never thought the reactor shipped
Jed sez: ... AG is worried that this will hurt Rossi's credibility. I am not worried about that, because Rossi has no credibility. McKubre thinks he does things intentionally to hurt his own credibility. I wouldn't put it past him. If I had a highly controversial free energy device that I wanted to market which didn't yet have adequate patent protection I would not in be too much of a hurry to draw undue attention to the legitimacy of who I am, or what I potentially represent, or of my invention. In order to keep my anonymity an occasional piece of disinformation strategically placed out on the Internet here and there would probably go a long way in keeping most of those potential competitors reasonably satisfied that I was nothing more than a scam artist. Not to bother. In the meantime, I'd focus on two objectives: 1. Double my efforts to secure adequate patent protection. 2. As discretely as possible secure as many business contracts with a select group of customers as possible. Most of these businesses would probably prefer anonymity at this stage of the game as well since going public would also alert unwanted competition. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Lewan Mats says he never thought the reactor shipped
On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 1:21 PM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: If I had a highly controversial free energy device that I wanted to market which didn't yet have adequate patent protection I would not in be too much of a hurry to draw undue attention to the legitimacy of who I am, or what I potentially represent, or of my invention. In order to keep my anonymity an occasional piece of disinformation strategically placed out on the Internet here and there would probably go a long way in keeping most of those potential competitors reasonably satisfied that I was nothing more than a scam artist. Not to bother. In the meantime, I'd focus on two objectives: 1. Double my efforts to secure adequate patent protection. As many people in many places have noted, patent protection is effective from the first day of application and disclosure. The patent issue is totally a red herring. This was said by both a patent attorney and a patent examiner at one time or another during the saga. And if Rossi wanted to keep a low profile he would market privately like the Bloom Box which sold multiple working units to Google, eBay and some other giant before they made even a preliminary announcement. Read the Wikipedia on this product. The company would not even have done that except that the customers wanted the publicity.
Re: [Vo]:Lewan Mats says he never thought the reactor shipped
Yamali Yamali yamaliyam...@yahoo.de mailto:yamaliyam...@yahoo.de (who also has the e-mail response parameter wrong) wrote: Jed Rothwell wrote: ... Rossi has no credibility. ... How can you come this far and still believe his e-cats work and he never faked anything? Haven't we dicussed endlessly how easy that would be? And yet you seem to believe that a guy without any credivility had his one honest moment in life just when it came to what would probably be the greatest breakthroughs in the history of science? I'm... ahh... puzzled. Look, this is not complicated. Please, take it one step at a time: 1. Scientific credibility comes when you are independently checked or independently replicated. It is _never_ a function of your personal credibility. If it was, no one would believe Robert Stroud (the birdman of Alcatraz) -- to take an extreme example -- because he was an habitual liar and a homicidal maniac. We believe Stroud because people have read his books, confirmed his observations, and used his techniques successfully. 2. Rossi has been independently replicated by Defkalion, and his devices have been carefully checked by many experts. 3. He cannot have faked devices checked thousands of miles away from him at Defkalion. 4. It is not physically possible for him to fake heat that burns someone. It is not possible for him to conduct 5 kW of electricity over a thin wire. No one can do that. You must separate the person from the claim in your mind. The personality or behavior of the person has no bearing on whether the claim is true or false. You can only judge the claim by experiment. Rossi has been independently confirmed by experiment. That's all there is to it. Discussions of his personality may be interesting but they CANNOT AFFECT THE VALIDITY OF HIS CLAIM. Yugo and others say that the experiment was never done except in Rossi's presence, and he might have used stage magic. That is wrong on two counts: 1. It has been done repeatedly thousands of miles from him, with equipment he never touched. He denies the equipment exists! 2. No such stage magic tricks exist, or can exist. It is physically impossible. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Lewan Mats says he never thought the reactor shipped
Jed, you have to admit that it just must be difficult for some people to believe in Rossi because of the way he behaves (and therefore also separating the behavior from his claimed inventions as this requires some abstract and very rational thinking, no harm intended). The fact that you have insider knowledge is really nice for you (I envy you for that and I would really like to know more about that :)). However, this is your information only, therefore it doesn't help the rest of us because (understandably) you cannot reveal who your sources are and what they say. Therefore, the rest of the normal people is left with Rossis claims, his behavior as well as the claims from NI, NASA, DGT and of course people like you etc. And as much as I appreciate statements from you, the fact that this is the Internet and there are other people with different Insider knowledge (like, e.g., Jones Beene) simply makes it difficult to trust anything and anyone. Therefore there is not a lot of things that we can hold onto (regarding Rossi its some more or less conclusive test during the last year as well as the NI press release; we, e.g., don't know about the independent tests by 3rd parties). And from all those claims and statements everyone constructs his very own image, necessarily. This is where the big confusion and noise comes from... So have a good night (here it is 1:10 AM). Wolf Yamali Yamali yamaliyam...@yahoo.de mailto:yamaliyam...@yahoo.de (who also has the e-mail response parameter wrong) wrote: Jed Rothwell wrote: ... Rossi has no credibility. ... How can you come this far and still believe his e-cats work and he never faked anything? Haven't we dicussed endlessly how easy that would be? And yet you seem to believe that a guy without any credivility had his one honest moment in life just when it came to what would probably be the greatest breakthroughs in the history of science? I'm... ahh... puzzled. Look, this is not complicated. Please, take it one step at a time: 1. Scientific credibility comes when you are independently checked or independently replicated. It is _never_ a function of your personal credibility. If it was, no one would believe Robert Stroud (the birdman of Alcatraz) -- to take an extreme example -- because he was an habitual liar and a homicidal maniac. We believe Stroud because people have read his books, confirmed his observations, and used his techniques successfully. 2. Rossi has been independently replicated by Defkalion, and his devices have been carefully checked by many experts. 3. He cannot have faked devices checked thousands of miles away from him at Defkalion. 4. It is not physically possible for him to fake heat that burns someone. It is not possible for him to conduct 5 kW of electricity over a thin wire. No one can do that. You must separate the person from the claim in your mind. The personality or behavior of the person has no bearing on whether the claim is true or false. You can only judge the claim by experiment. Rossi has been independently confirmed by experiment. That's all there is to it. Discussions of his personality may be interesting but they CANNOT AFFECT THE VALIDITY OF HIS CLAIM. Yugo and others say that the experiment was never done except in Rossi's presence, and he might have used stage magic. That is wrong on two counts: 1. It has been done repeatedly thousands of miles from him, with equipment he never touched. He denies the equipment exists! 2. No such stage magic tricks exist, or can exist. It is physically impossible. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Lewan Mats says he never thought the reactor shipped
On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: 2. Rossi has been independently replicated by Defkalion, and his devices have been carefully checked by many experts. Except that no expert has been allowed to use a better method of measuring enthalpy such as sparging steam or liquid flow calorimetry. And Defkalion's independent replication has never been seen and is only a claim. Claims are not facts nor evidence nor proof-- they're just words. 3. He cannot have faked devices checked thousands of miles away from him at Defkalion. Same comments about Defkalion who has never shown anything in public or to anyone who can expertly comment on measuring something with their own gear. 4. It is not physically possible for him to fake heat that burns someone. It's possible to use a large prominent electrical heater powered by the mains to heat anything you choose and maybe burn someone. not possible for him to conduct 5 kW of electricity over a thin wire. No one can do that. Depends on the wire. You can run a lot more current in wires than they are rated for, especially for short period. But I'm not sure anyone ever claimed that Rossi did this. Hidden power sources are another story. Yugo and others say that the experiment was never done except in Rossi's presence, and he might have used stage magic. Stage magic is a sort of proxy attribution -- he may have done it by some hidden means is what's meant. 1. It has been done repeatedly thousands of miles from him, with equipment he never touched. He denies the equipment exists! We have not one shred of credible evidence that this is true. Defkalion lied about giving equipment for tests to the Greek authorities inasmuch as can be determined by a member of the Greek Parliament from the city in question. 2. No such stage magic tricks exist, or can exist. It is physically impossible. Because you claim that does not make it so.
