RE: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor
The photoelectric effect won’t work, Eric - unless you include this as a premise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino_theory_of_light … which is an interesting solution in a way. That is probably what you had in mind. The next best short answer is the known physics of electron capture cannot work with a proton on earth at all … ever … at least not in any kind of symmetry, since the neutrino (with its extra mass + spin balancing), should be captured - not emitted, in order to balance the more important parts of the equation. If you have to invent some kind of a heavy electron first – then you propose two miracles instead of one. ‘Conservation of miracles’ at work… The curious part is that the W-L proponents must realize that there is a huge neutrino flux which could be tapped into for this purpose, but they do not go there as a general rule. Never mind the solar variety is the wrong kind, as a general rule, since we have the kludge of neutrino “flavor oscillation”, but catch-22 can it be stretched to cover antiparticles? Another miracle required. The neutrino has always been a place-marker at best, just this side of fiction. Even today it still means: check back in a few years and see if we can provide real data. The superluminal saga is a case-in-point. Jones From: Eric Walker pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote: Hasn't someone here rebutted the physics of e-c capture? The rebuttals I've seen involve the p + e- - n + v reaction that is usually understood to occur between an inner shell electron and a proton in a nucleus, or of the heavy electrons that Widom and Larsen propose. An important assumption is that neutrons are not coming about through some other pathway involving electrons. I'm personally rooting for a photoelectric effect in which gammas or X-rays take part (although I have no basis for rooting for one theory over another). One obstacle to any e-c capture explanation appears to be the great mass of the W- boson; I have no opinion here. I suspect we're not being creative enough yet, though, and that as soon as we are willing to suspend disbelief at the possibility of neutron capture as a starting point, clever people can come up with a whole range of interesting and falsifiable hypotheses. Regarding the experiments, there are numerous reports of helium, tritium, low-level gammas and isotope shifts; there are even reports of very low levels of neutrons, which I'm not inclined to dismiss, although people who know much more about these things suspect that they're in error. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 5:43 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: The photoelectric effect won’t work, Eric - unless you include this as a premise ** ** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino_theory_of_light ** ** … which is an interesting solution in a way. That is probably what you had in mind. Here's something along the lines of what I had in mind. I've no doubt failed to come up with anything reasonable in this instance. But it's just one possibility; creative people can no doubt come up with N factorial other possibilities, and some of them will have more basis than just free association. http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/23640/what-interactions-would-take-place-between-a-free-proton-and-a-dipolariton The question got three up-votes, which doesn't always happen, so at least there's some interest in the general topic. (Please don't everyone go and post super pro-cold fusion comments.) Eric
[Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor
Greetings All, In case that you haven t see this before: http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/New-LENR-Machine-is-the-Best-Yet.html Respectfully, Ron Kita, Chiralex
RE: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor
Ron, I got no complaints with their theory - right or wrong it is, IMHO, closer to the truth than all the others. The herd is thinning and I predict we will see a shift toward the Brillouin technology even while trying to wrap it in their own proprietary theories along with a contingent of new copy cats that will now jump in. The real excitement may come in the form of spinoffs as science finally discovers where these reports of half life anomalies are stemming - perhaps this is why the Mayan calendars expire in 2012 as we discover how to manipulate time? Fran From: Ron Kita [mailto:chiralex.k...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 7:07 AM To: vortex-l Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor Greetings All, In case that you haven t see this before: http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/New-LENR-Machine-is-the-Best-Yet.html Respectfully, Ron Kita, Chiralex
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor
While Brillouin seems well founded, disciplined and scientific it does appear that they have a pretty major problem in that their COP at 2.1 is too low to be commercially useful. I believe they achieved that almost a year ago if the info on their website is anything to go by, and yet in their recent PESN interview if I heard correctly that COP=2.1 was still their best result (so apparently no improvement in last year?). Unfortunately at this stage there doesn't appear to be any basis for a hope that it will improve to commercially useful levels. On 24 April 2012 13:43, Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com wrote: Ron, I got no complaints with their theory – right or wrong it is, IMHO, closer to the truth than all the others. The herd is thinning and I predict we will see a shift toward the Brillouin technology even while trying to wrap it in their own proprietary theories along with a contingent of new copy cats that will now jump in. The real excitement may come in the form of spinoffs as science finally discovers where these reports of half life anomalies are stemming – perhaps this is why the Mayan calendars expire in 2012 as we discover how to manipulate time? Fran From: Ron Kita [mailto:chiralex.k...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 7:07 AM To: vortex-l Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor Greetings All, In case that you haven t see this before: http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/New-LENR-Machine-is-the-Best-Yet.html Respectfully, Ron Kita, Chiralex
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor
maybe I minsinterpreted their reports, but it seem that the COP~2 is for the low temperature liquid phase home boiler. they gas phase boiler, working at 400-500C seems to have an undisclosed COP... can someone correct me. Le 24 avril 2012 16:30, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com a écrit : While Brillouin seems well founded, disciplined and scientific it does appear that they have a pretty major problem in that their COP at 2.1 is too low to be commercially useful. I believe they achieved that almost a year ago if the info on their website is anything to go by, and yet in their recent PESN interview if I heard correctly that COP=2.1 was still their best result (so apparently no improvement in last year?). Unfortunately at this stage there doesn't appear to be any basis for a hope that it will improve to commercially useful levels. On 24 April 2012 13:43, Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com wrote: Ron, I got no complaints with their theory – right or wrong it is, IMHO, closer to the truth than all the others. The herd is thinning and I predict we will see a shift toward the Brillouin technology even while trying to wrap it in their own proprietary theories along with a contingent of new copy cats that will now jump in. The real excitement may come in the form of spinoffs as science finally discovers where these reports of half life anomalies are stemming – perhaps this is why the Mayan calendars expire in 2012 as we discover how to manipulate time? Fran From: Ron Kita [mailto:chiralex.k...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 7:07 AM To: vortex-l Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor Greetings All, In case that you haven t see this before: http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/New-LENR-Machine-is-the-Best-Yet.html Respectfully, Ron Kita, Chiralex
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor
Brillouin expects the test of the new Hot Tube model at SRI will be capable of delivering steam at temperatures from 400ºC to 500ºC (750-932ºF). This means that SRI will build the high pressure hydrogen reactor. Currently, this reactor is just a concept and a hope. Such a reactor has not been prototyped in any way. This SRI effort will be a research effort. I predict that this dry reactor will perform no better than the current wet reactor. What gives the Rossi type reactor its power is the secret sauce and the Rossi reaction is different from and more powerful than the Brillouin reaction. INHO, the Brillouin system cannot be commercialized because of its low power density. Regards: Axil On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.comwrote: maybe I minsinterpreted their reports, but it seem that the COP~2 is for the low temperature liquid phase home boiler. they gas phase boiler, working at 400-500C seems to have an undisclosed COP... can someone correct me. Le 24 avril 2012 16:30, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com a écrit : While Brillouin seems well founded, disciplined and scientific it does appear that they have a pretty major problem in that their COP at 2.1 is too low to be commercially useful. I believe they achieved that almost a year ago if the info on their website is anything to go by, and yet in their recent PESN interview if I heard correctly that COP=2.1 was still their best result (so apparently no improvement in last year?). Unfortunately at this stage there doesn't appear to be any basis for a hope that it will improve to commercially useful levels. On 24 April 2012 13:43, Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com wrote: Ron, I got no complaints with their theory – right or wrong it is, IMHO, closer to the truth than all the others. The herd is thinning and I predict we will see a shift toward the Brillouin technology even while trying to wrap it in their own proprietary theories along with a contingent of new copy cats that will now jump in. The real excitement may come in the form of spinoffs as science finally discovers where these reports of half life anomalies are stemming – perhaps this is why the Mayan calendars expire in 2012 as we discover how to manipulate time? Fran From: Ron Kita [mailto:chiralex.k...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 7:07 AM To: vortex-l Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor Greetings All, In case that you haven t see this before: http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/New-LENR-Machine-is-the-Best-Yet.html Respectfully, Ron Kita, Chiralex
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor
It appears to be early in the development cycle for the dry reactor so let's hope that it progresses well. I have not seen any reference to transformation of nickel to copper as Rossi claims and I was wondering if anyone else has seen any references. Why would all of the freshly minted neutrons collect with protons only and not any of the other nearby nuclei? Is it possible that Brillouin is using a truly different path for energy production in their device as compared to Rossi and DGT? Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Apr 24, 2012 2:50 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor Brillouin expects the test of the new Hot Tube model at SRI will be capable of delivering steam at temperatures from 400ºC to 500ºC (750-932ºF). This means that SRI will build the high pressure hydrogen reactor. Currently, this reactor is just a concept and a hope. Such a reactor has not been prototyped in any way. This SRI effort will be a research effort. I predict that this dry reactor will perform no better than the current wet reactor. What gives the Rossi type reactor its power is the secret sauce and the Rossi reaction is different from and more powerful than the Brillouin reaction. INHO, the Brillouin system cannot be commercialized because of its low power density. Regards: Axil On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: maybe I minsinterpreted their reports, but it seem that the COP~2 is for the low temperature liquid phase home boiler. they gas phase boiler, working at 400-500C seems to have an undisclosed COP... can someone correct me. Le 24 avril 2012 16:30, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com a écrit : While Brillouin seems well founded, disciplined and scientific it does appear that they have a pretty major problem in that their COP at 2.1 is too low to be commercially useful. I believe they achieved that almost a year ago if the info on their website is anything to go by, and yet in their recent PESN interview if I heard correctly that COP=2.1 was still their best result (so apparently no improvement in last year?). Unfortunately at this stage there doesn't appear to be any basis for a hope that it will improve to commercially useful levels. On 24 April 2012 13:43, Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com wrote: Ron, I got no complaints with their theory – right or wrong it is, IMHO, closer to the truth than all the others. The herd is thinning and I predict we will see a shift toward the Brillouin technology even while trying to wrap it in their own proprietary theories along with a contingent of new copy cats that will now jump in. The real excitement may come in the form of spinoffs as science finally discovers where these reports of half life anomalies are stemming – perhaps this is why the Mayan calendars expire in 2012 as we discover how to manipulate time? Fran From: Ron Kita [mailto:chiralex.k...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 7:07 AM To: vortex-l Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor Greetings All, In case that you haven t see this before: http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/New-LENR-Machine-is-the-Best-Yet.html Respectfully, Ron Kita, Chiralex
RE: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor
Well, the short answer is instantaneous. The Brillo boys are using a variant of W-L theory, which to the thinking of many of us has more holes than Dunkin’ – since neutrons activate everything in the surroundings … but with a curious twist. That twist makes it fully falsifiable - and if it proves accurate, then it is NOT “freshly minted neutrons” which is the key, so much as the instant jump to “freshly minted deuterium” and beyond to instant helium. IOW to his everlasting credit, Godes has a theory portends to be completely falsifiable – since he has said this reaction involves the synthesis of neutrons, but which progresses immediately to deuterium, then to helium as if was a single reaction. He gives every indication of having detected helium, but no, he has NOT ever come out and said it directly AFAIK. He is way out on a limb with this, BUT if he can show actual helium from the reaction - and with only protium at the start – then all of us will have to say that he probably got it right … and at a time when W-L could not close the deal… so he will deserve all the credit, despite the similarity. From: David Roberson Why would all of the freshly minted neutrons collect with protons only and not any of the other nearby nuclei? Is it possible that Brillouin is using a truly different path for energy production in their device as compared to Rossi and DGT? Dave attachment: winmail.dat
Re: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor
It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the long run. Maybe the 'Brillo boys' have not run their device for a long enough period to generate detectable products. If they are following this discussion perhaps one of them would respond to your pertinent question about the detection of helium. That would help to clarify the data. Dave -Original Message- From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Apr 24, 2012 4:39 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor Well, the short answer is instantaneous. The Brillo boys are using a variant f W-L theory, which to the thinking of many of us has more holes than unkin’ – since neutrons activate everything in the surroundings … but with curious twist. That twist makes it fully falsifiable - and if it proves ccurate, then it is NOT “freshly minted neutrons” which is the key, so much s the instant jump to “freshly minted deuterium” and beyond to instant elium. IOW to his everlasting credit, Godes has a theory portends to be completely alsifiable – since he has said this reaction involves the synthesis of eutrons, but which progresses immediately to deuterium, then to helium as f was a single reaction. He gives every indication of having detected elium, but no, he has NOT ever come out and said it directly AFAIK. He is way out on a limb with this, BUT if he can show actual helium from the eaction - and with only protium at the start – then all of us will have to ay that he probably got it right … and at a time when W-L could not close he deal… so he will deserve all the credit, despite the similarity. From: David Roberson Why would all of the freshly minted neutrons collect with rotons only and not any of the other nearby nuclei? Is it possible that Brillouin is using a truly different ath for energy production in their device as compared to Rossi and DGT? Dave
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: What gives the Rossi type reactor its power is the secret sauce and the Rossi reaction is different from and more powerful than the Brillouin reaction. Considering that Rossi hasn't revealed how the E-Cat system works I don't see how you can make this assertion. Do you actually know how the E-Cat works or are you guessing? [mg]
RE: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor
How does the initiating step differ from the electron-capture proposed in W-L papers? Hasn't someone here rebutted the physics of e-c capture? Not freshly minted? Jones Beene wrote: Well, the short answer is instantaneous. The Brillo boys are using a variant of W-L theory, which to the thinking of many of us has more holes than Dunkinâ â since neutrons activate everything in the surroundings ⦠but with a curious twist. That twist makes it fully falsifiable - and if it proves accurate, then it is NOT âfreshly minted neutronsâ which is the key, so much as the instant jump to âfreshly minted deuteriumâ and beyond to instant helium. [...]
Re: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Tue, 24 Apr 2012 13:39:12 -0700: Hi, Note that enhanced electron capture is also a characteristic of Hydrino capture or Horace's theory. The difference being that with these theories the electron capture happens either concurrent with or after the proton capture, not before. 4 H atoms trapped in a Takahashi tetrahedron may also spontaneously convert to Helium nucleus. Rather than Helium, I would think that D may be a stronger indicator that neutron formation is occurring. Neutron formation from H is strongly endothermic, whereas Hydrino formation is exothermic, making the latter far more likely IMHO. Well, the short answer is instantaneous. The Brillo boys are using a variant of W-L theory, which to the thinking of many of us has more holes than Dunkin since neutrons activate everything in the surroundings but with a curious twist. That twist makes it fully falsifiable - and if it proves accurate, then it is NOT freshly minted neutrons which is the key, so much as the instant jump to freshly minted deuterium and beyond to instant helium. IOW to his everlasting credit, Godes has a theory portends to be completely falsifiable since he has said this reaction involves the synthesis of neutrons, but which progresses immediately to deuterium, then to helium as if was a single reaction. He gives every indication of having detected helium, but no, he has NOT ever come out and said it directly AFAIK. He is way out on a limb with this, BUT if he can show actual helium from the reaction - and with only protium at the start then all of us will have to say that he probably got it right and at a time when W-L could not close the deal so he will deserve all the credit, despite the similarity. From: David Roberson Why would all of the freshly minted neutrons collect with protons only and not any of the other nearby nuclei? Is it possible that Brillouin is using a truly different path for energy production in their device as compared to Rossi and DGT? Dave Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 12:48 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I have not seen any reference to transformation of nickel to copper as Rossi claims and I was wondering if anyone else has seen any references. Why would all of the freshly minted neutrons collect with protons only and not any of the other nearby nuclei? My present assumption is that in Ni/H systems, impurities are the seed, and in Pd/D systems, both impurities and hydrogen atoms are the seeds. If we assume neutron production at any level, one imagines that there would be reactions with nearby heavier nuclei, and perhaps some or all of these reactions would be exothermic. I would love a good computer model to further explore this line of questioning. While we're purely speculating, one possibility is that nickel is not a seed for reactions, however, which would appear to be contrary to an account along the lines you allude to. I've read in different connections that the cathode material itself is largely unchanged after a reaction. I would imagine that there is a shift in isotopes and additional activation. But this statement from Wikipedia could lead one to wonder whether the cathode (nickel, palladium, tungsten, etc.) is the secret catalyst: The high binding energy of nickel isotopes in general makes nickel an 'end product' of many nuclear reactions (including neutron capture reactions) throughout the universe and accounts for the high relative abundance of nickel—although most of the nickel in space (and thus produced by supernova explosions) is nickel-58 (the most common isotope) and nickel-60 (the second-most, with the other stable isotopes (nickel-61, nickel-62, and nickel-64) being quite rare). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel-62 There's a fascinating 1957 paper called Synthesis of the Elements in Stars, in which the authors describe various elements subjected to heavy neutron flux during r-process nucleosynthesis. Some isotopes end up being the stopping point of an upward chain of transmutations, despite the fact that they are not too heavy, because they are particularly stable, and to get to higher elements you have to go through other paths. A question I have is whether there is a path from iron to copper that does not go directly through nickel -- I wouldn't be surprised if some of the nickel would transmute to copper, so that may well be the source of any copper, but it's interesting to think about whether iron might be the seed and nickel the catalyst and copper a result. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 7:18 PM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote: Hasn't someone here rebutted the physics of e-c capture? The rebuttals I've seen involve the p + e- - n + v reaction that is usually understood to occur between an inner shell electron and a proton in a nucleus, or of the heavy electrons that Widom and Larsen propose. An important assumption is that neutrons are not coming about through some other pathway involving electrons. I'm personally rooting for a photoelectric effect in which gammas or X-rays take part (although I have no basis for rooting for one theory over another). One obstacle to any e-c capture explanation appears to be the great mass of the W- boson; I have no opinion here. I suspect we're not being creative enough yet, though, and that as soon as we are willing to suspend disbelief at the possibility of neutron capture as a starting point, clever people can come up with a whole range of interesting and falsifiable hypotheses. Regarding the experiments, there are numerous reports of helium, tritium, low-level gammas and isotope shifts; there are even reports of very low levels of neutrons, which I'm not inclined to dismiss, although people who know much more about these things suspect that they're in error. Eric
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:Oil Price.com features Brillouin CF Reactor
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:58 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: But this statement from Wikipedia could lead one to wonder whether the cathode (nickel, palladium, tungsten, etc.) is the secret catalyst: I'm using cathode too broadly here -- I mean the metal substrate within which the nuclear-active environment resides; e.g., the cathode in electrolytic experiments and the powder in powder-gas experiments. (One imagines that glow discharge and electric arc experiments might be giving rise to an intimately related effect by way of ionization.) Eric
