Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
SNIP I cannot understand this anti-technology, Luddite point of view. Jed, I totally agree. A generation ago, the business establishment was calling environmentalists luddites for suppossedly opposing technological progress (I think they were just advocating an alternative approach). But strangely, this whole luddite term has gone full circle and now it is the American business establishment that can rightly be accussed of being luddites for standing in the way of technological progress that might reorder the hydrcarbon society and affect their profits. Businesses are more interested in just existing and protecting markets than solving problems or advancing to new technologies that might enhance life for everyone. This struggle to implement alternative energy technologies that are growing increasingly practicle is an excellent example of this luddite resistence in our modern era. It is very fortunate that in other countries, government and industry still plan and build for the future. On NHK (Japan national TV) yesterday they showed a prototype electric automobile being developed at breakneck speed by the power companies, Toyota and the government. It is based on the newest batteries. The range is 200 km, and it recharges in 10 to 15 minutes. It will go on sale next year, and it should be available in the U.S. in three years, just about the time the first serious U.S. hybrids hit the road, I suppose. It is obviously lead to plug-in hybrids as well. Thanks for the info. Sounds very interesting. We'll have to follow the developments. We're not far off from the point where electric could replace gasoline as the most versatile and least expensive option for automobiles. If recharge times in the 10 to 15 minute range can be achieved by the Japanese, that is a huge step forward. The range issues will quickly be worked out. Recharge time is really the limiting factor for electric vehicles at this point (6 hours in a long time and impracticle for highway driving). Electric makes sense for many reasons: - Electric propulsion costs only about one-tenth of gasoline propulsion at the moment (you can travel the same distance for 1/10th the cost using electric, perhaps more with gas prices at $3.00+). - Electric engines are simpler and cheaper to maintain than petrol engines. - Pollution can be controlled at the point of electrical production and more easily controlled (ultimately we'd like to see that point of production be a renewable energy source like cold fusion). - Switching to an electric vehicle energy distribution system would be rather easy. The infrastructure is already in place. Building charging stations isn't too complicated. Certainly the electric infrastructure would have to be modernized, made more efficient and enhanced to handle the heavier load from electric cars, but those changes are long overdue anyway.
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
RC Macaulay wrote: However, considering the local, state and federal government organized response to Katrina, perhaps its time for us to look at another financial vehicle to carry us forward in the competivive world of energy . . . The government worked well in the past, and with proper leadership it can work well today. Of course industry must assume most of the risk and expense, as it has in the past. The US Government is maxed out of financial resources, this happened before Katrina. Well, it would only take a few billion dollars of government money to implement plug-in hybrids. Toyota spent $1 billion on the Prius, and it is more than halfway to an ideal plug-in. In any case, I do not think the U.S. is broke. The U.S. government was running a surplus under Clinton. Things have not changed all that much since then. The only big expense is the war, which costs $1 billion per day. A $1 per gallon gasoline war tax would pay $400 million per day. This would also eliminate shortages, lines at the gas station, or the need to ration gasoline. The rest should come from an 80% war-time income tax on people who make more than $250,000 per year. If we are going to have a war, we have to pay for it. Two steps would fix the rest of the problem: 1. Rescind the tax cuts for everyone else. 2. Rescind recent trillion dollar giveaways to industry such as Starwars, subsidies for agribusiness and fossil fuel, and the $200 billion highway bill, that allocated $223 million for a bridge to nowhere in Alaska. Cancel all that stuff, plus the hot fusion program, and there would be plenty of money left over. - Jed
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
RC Macaulay wrote: A few federal incentives for this would be nice. Then us little folk could get stuff like this. Gimme's dead. Please explain this remark. --Kyle Old Texan saying ,Kyle. People asking someone to give me something gimme sumpin gets the reply gimme's dead. What exactly does this mean, in this context? Are you saying that corporations should not design forward-looking products that consumers want, or will soon want, as market conditions evolve? We should let the Japanese and Chinese corporations do that instead, I suppose. Or are you saying that governments and corporations should work together to produce new technology? That would be an interesting change. In the U.S., government has been on the forefront of technology and development since the colonial period. Every major transportation technology, including harbos, canals, steamships, railroads, subways, automobiles, airplanes and automobiles, has been developed with government leadership and funding. This sytem has worked splendidly for 300 years, but now -- for some unknown reason -- you suggest it will not longer work. Also, why do you call it a giveaway when the return on investment in every case has been phenomenally good, for the government, citizens, and private industry alike? I cannot understand this anti-technology, Luddite point of view. It is very fortunate that in other countries, government and industry still plan and build for the future. On NHK (Japan national TV) yesterday they showed a prototype electric automobile being developed at breakneck speed by the power companies, Toyota and the government. It is based on the newest batteries. The range is 200 km, and it recharges in 10 to 15 minutes. It will go on sale next year, and it should be available in the U.S. in three years, just about the time the first serious U.S. hybrids hit the road, I suppose. It is obviously lead to plug-in hybrids as well. The Chinese are working on similar vehicles. Do you really think it would be best to sit and wait for Toyota and the Chinese to wipe out our auto industry? Or should we respond 5 years too late to do any good, the way we responded to crises in Iraq and New Orleans? - Jed
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
I wrote: Or are you saying that governments and corporations should work together to produce new technology? Meant NOT work together. They always have in the past, but that was bad for us I suppose. - Jed
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
Richard wrote.. Old Texan saying ,Kyle. People asking someone to give me something " gimme sumpin" gets the reply " gimme's dead". Jed wrote..What exactly does this mean, in this context? Are you saying that corporations should not design forward-looking products that consumers want, or will soon want, as market conditions evolve? We should let the Japanese and Chinese corporations do that instead, I suppose.Or are you saying that governments and corporations should work together to produce new technology? That would be an interesting change. In the U.S., government has been on the forefront of technology and development since the colonial period. Every major transportation technology, including harbos, canals, steamships, railroads, subways, automobiles, airplanes and automobiles, has been developed with government leadership and funding. This sytem has worked splendidly for 300 years, but now -- for some unknown reason -- you suggest it will not longer work.Also, why do you call it a "giveaway" when the return on investment in every case has been phenomenally good, for the government, citizens, and private industry alike?I cannot understand this anti-technology, Luddite point of view. It is very fortunate that in other countries, government and industry still plan and build for the future. On NHK (Japan national TV) yesterday they showed a prototype electric automobile being developed at breakneck speed by the power companies, Toyota and the government. It is based on the newest batteries. The range is 200 km, and it recharges in 10 to 15 minutes. It will go on sale next year, and it should be available in the U.S. in three years, just about the time the first serious U.S. hybrids hit the road, I suppose. It is obviously lead to plug-in hybrids as well. The Chinese are working on similar vehicles. Do you really think it would be best to sit and wait for Toyota and the Chinese to wipe out our auto industry? Or should we respond 5 years too late to do any good, the way we responded to crises in Iraq and New Orleans?- Jed Gosh Jed. all I wrote was that there is an old saying " gimme's dead" which is a standard reply to anyone asking you to give them something.I didn't includethe US Govt in the comment. However, considering the local, state and federal government " organized response to Katrina", perhaps its time for us to look at another financial " vehicle" to carry us forward in the competivive world of energy and its expected resultant " fallout" for failure to sustain progress in conservation of energy coupled with developing alternate energy applications and use.The US Government is "maxed " out of financial resources, this happened " before" Katrina. Richard
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
Kyle wrote.. What we need is a bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle What we need is a bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle, with manualeverything and no convenience features that can be made and sold dirt cheap. We have one.. its called a bicycle! A few federal incentives for this would be nice. Then us little folk couldget stuff like this. Gimme's dead. Richard
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
Blank Original Message - From: RC Macaulay To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, 03 September, 2005 08:32 AM Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta Kyle wrote.. What we need is a bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle What we need is a bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle, with manual everything and no convenience features that can be made and sold dirt cheap. We have one.. its called a bicycle! Try driving that through the snow 15 miles to work, along Niagara Falls Blvd., just outside of Buffalo NY. A few federal incentives for this would be nice. Then us little folk could get stuff like this. Gimme's dead. Please explain this remark. --Kyle
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
- Original Message - From: Kyle Mcallister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 6:37 PM Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta Blank Original Message - From: RC Macaulay To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, 03 September, 2005 08:32 AM Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta Kyle wrote.. What we need is a bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle What we need is a bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle, with manual everything and no convenience features that can be made and sold dirt cheap. We have one.. its called a bicycle! Try driving that through the snow 15 miles to work, along Niagara Falls Blvd., just outside of Buffalo NY. A few federal incentives for this would be nice. Then us little folk could get stuff like this. Gimme's dead. Please explain this remark. --Kyle Old Texan saying ,Kyle. People asking someone to give me something gimme sumpin gets the reply gimme's dead. While on the subject of gimme sumpin, a fascinating dynamic is underway in the USA, both sudden and profound in its Implications,a change in ethnic view of one another as a byproduct of hurricane Katrina.This change has been fermenting for a generation and has reared its ugly head in increasing frequency. A less tolerant and hardening view toward the entrenched 3rd generation welfare class created by the state and compounded by the cultural bonds of ethnicity. Similar manifestations of change are taking place in Europe, India and the Muslim world. Over the next six months, as the full depth of the magnitude of the Katrina disaster becomes understood, we may witness new and disturbing repercussions from our failed social experiments of the 1960's. The fallout will result from the clash between three classes. One class of upward mobile, job secure,educated professionals with abundance ,family wealth and resources, one class hammered into poverty by the empty promise of welfare security and one class loosely described as Red Nekkid. The anger is intrinsic to the poverty class and is a loose barrel of gunpowder rolling on the deck. The Rednekkid holds the box of matches. The box of matches is gasoline for their pickup trucks. Take that away and we can see what ugly looks like. Richard.
RE: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
Amen. -Original Message- From: Kyle Mcallister [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 6:05 PM To: Vortex-L Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta What we need is a bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle, with manual everything and no convenience features that can be made and sold dirt cheap. A few federal incentives for this would be nice. Then us little folk could get stuff like this.
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
From: RC Macaulay To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:28 PM Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta Kyle wrote.. I am a full timeClass A mechanic in the nearly jobless Buffalo New York area, bringing homea little over $12,000/yr. That, to say the least, sucks. Especially here .. Kyle , 12k is below the welfare rate. You would be better off moving back to ole Miss and get a job rebuilding gambling casinos where you can ride a bike to work. Richard --- Not a bad idea. The cost of living in Miss. is about half of New York and there will be a lot of work available rebuilding the Gulf Coast. I read that there is an accute shortage of construction workers along the Florida Gulf Coast that is hampering rebuiling efforts. Anyone who knows a trade that involvesrebuilding buildings has all the work they want.
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
All is quiet in Atlanta today. I see no gas lines. The price settled at $3.15 per gallon, after the governor declared a gasoline price state of emergency yesterday evening. I do not understand why people were in such a tizzy. - Jed
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
From: Jed I do not understand why people were in such a tizzy. Really! You'd think it had snowed. ;-)
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
From: Jed Rothwell All is quiet in Atlanta today. I see no gas lines. The price settled at $3.15 per gallon, after the governor declared a gasoline price state of emergency yesterday evening. I do not understand why people were in such a tizzy. - Jed As of Thursday a gallon'o'gas is hovering around $3.10 - $3.30 up here in Madison, Wisconsin. Glad I'm not selling Ford Explorers for a living. It would not surprise me to see an increase in the sale of used SUVs, hummers, RVs in the local classifieds in the near future. I'm with Jed on this one. I feel little simpathy for many of these owners who could have made more sensible choices when it came to basic transportation. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From: Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2005/09/01 Thu PM 03:57:28 CDT To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta All is quiet in Atlanta today. I see no gas lines. The price settled at $3.15 per gallon, after the governor declared a gasoline price state of emergency yesterday evening. I do not understand why people were in such a tizzy. - Jed
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, 31 August, 2005 09:59 PM Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta Sorry, let me amend that. I have zero sympathy for RICH people who drive new gas guzzler SUVs and Hummers. I havetons of sympathy for people like you who have no choice -- and I know several both here in Atlanta and in Pennsylvania. Unfortunately, things are going to get worse for you because in a few years when half the used cars will be SUVs. Well the hell with that...I am not going to drive an SUV. Too dangerous (they are topheavy as all get out) and I can barely afford to keep going nowI don't need a 14mpg mostly-plastic/aluminum monstrosity that weighs so much only because it is ridiculously big. Why do people need these things? Back when I was a kid, my family got around very well in a Plymouth Voyager minivan. Reliable, and lots of room, as well as having a 2.5l engine that would run through anything and got excellent mileage. On the other hand, since you read this forum, you probably have a good grasp of engineering, and you buy the most fuel-efficient car you can, and to keep the tires properly filled and the engine in good shape. You probably conserve in other ways, such as by using compact flourescent lights. People who do that are part of the solution, whether they are rich orpoor. I buy what I can, and if possible, modify it to do better based on what I know of internal combustion engines. My current vehicle is a 1990 Buick Regal, 3.8l motor. Its ok, was cheap. But, it is not so great on gas, nor does it have the get-up-and-go to show for it. Believe it or not, my previous car, a 1986 Chevrolet Monte Carlo, with a 5.0l carbureted got better mileage. My Regal gets about 22mpg/highway, the Monte Carlo got 25-28. Why? 1., I don't drive like a bat out of hell, and I anticipate lights. 2., I modified the carburetor jetting and camshaft. Just for kicks, we took it and had it dyno'd. Just under 325 horsepower. BUT: that car is now undriveable, because the modifications made it illegal to operate in New York state given the new laws that just went into effect for inspections. How is that for irony? You go buy a gigantic SUV that is DESIGNED to have lousy mileage and belch out pollution, and it passes inspection. You take an old car with a huge engine, modify it so that it outruns most anything out there, but gets better mileage than the average compact car, and it fails inspection. Go figure. Incidentally, the inspection proceedures do not include a tailpipe gas analysis..its simply oh, it was modified? Oh, it fails. The exhaust from the Chevy certainly did not smell as bad as that from most cars I have been around. I would love to try the same tricks with an old 4-cyl carbureted car. Perhaps I will keep that in mind when looking for my next car? And BTW, you are correct about the lights. Everything I use is fluorescent. Since you are a mechanic you know the alternatives better than I do. For the little guy like me, difficult to say. Older for us is definitely better, because you can fix it under your tree, and it is cheaper. Who really needs all this power shit in their cars? And some of the stuff in cars is just ridiculouspeople are getting stupider because of it. Press a button, it tells you how much oil is in your engine. We have people coming to the shop that don't know how to check the oil in their engine, they just trust the level light. In the 3rd bay of our shop there lies a Porsche. Its owner trusted the oil level indicator. The indicator malfunctioned, where it screwed into the side of the oil pan. Oil leaked out, and he went for a nice 30 mile drive with no oil in the engine. One of my coworkers is now busy replacing the engine. What we need is a bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle, with manual everything and no convenience features that can be made and sold dirt cheap. A few federal incentives for this would be nice. Then us little folk could get stuff like this. I used to have one like that -- an Isuzu diesel. Great car! I do not understand what caused the downfall of the diesel. Really when you get down to it, they are not that hard to work on. Nasty and greasy yes, but for 50mpg.Nevertheless, diesel is still petroleum derived. I will not be happy until I am driving something fueled by something more exotic, and non-petroleum derived. I admit it, I have dreamed of the hydrogen car for many years $300 billion in Iraqwow. Anyone have any realistic idea how much of our power grid could have been converted to something nicer with that kind of cash? --Kyle
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
Gasoline has settled at around $3.00/gallon + or - 20 cents in New Jersey. A rule of thumb I heard was that gasoline retails for about 60 cents above wholesale. Wholesale prices are around $2.40 today on the NYMEX, so $3.00 is about right. - Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 4:57 PM Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta All is quiet in Atlanta today. I see no gas lines. The price settled at $3.15 per gallon, after the governor declared a gasoline price state of emergency yesterday evening. I do not understand why people were in such a tizzy. - Jed
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
Kyle Mcallister writes: And some of the stuff in cars is just ridiculouspeople are getting stupider because of it. Press a button, it tells you how much oil is in your engine. We have people coming to the shop that don't know how to check the oil in their engine, they just trust the level light. In the 3rd bay of our shop there lies a Porsche. Its owner trusted the oil level indicator. The indicator malfunctioned . . . Hence the name idiot light. I'll bet that customer could sue Porsche. What we need is a bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle, with manual everything and no convenience features that can be made and sold dirt cheap. The Chinese are putting serious efforts into developing something like that. It will get 40 to 50 mpg. They plan to sell it in Europe and the U.S. for around $6,000. They are also preparing to ban the sale of most U.S. automobiles in China, supposedly because they consume too much gas. I used to have one like that -- an Isuzu diesel. Great car! I do not understand what caused the downfall of the diesel. Really when you get down to it, they are not that hard to work on. . . . I think the automotive diesel was hurt by the fall in gas prices. It is doing well in Europe these days. $300 billion in Iraqwow. Much more than that, I am afraid. A recent estimate put the total long-term cost of the war at over $1 trillion. This includes things like the lifetime care of the severely wounded, and 5 more years of occupation. (Although Rumsfield thinks it will take 12 years, and I think he is right.) This was reported in the New York Times, and I think the estimate was made by a federal economist. Anyone have any realistic idea how much of our power grid could have been converted to something nicer with that kind of cash? For $1 trillion we could end the use of oil completely. We could replace it with something like wind-power generated hydrogen, or space-based power with space elevators. (The elevators would cost $6 billion.) As I said in my book in the chapter on desalination, people will never spend that kind of money on anything other than war. The U.S. would not spend $1 trillion to prevent global warming even if most of the population and political leaders were convinced it is real. They just could not bring themselves to do it. We will only spend such unthinkably vast sums of money on homicide -- which, as I have said, is our most sublime favorite activity, judging by great works of art such as Hamlet. - Jed
Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
a friend of mine with an SUV just called. She went to three gas stations in Atlanta and they were out of gasoline. The fourth one, Citigo, was selling premium gasoline at $3.50 per gallon and they expect the price to rise to $4.00 within a few days. I told her serves you right for driving that big car! It serves the whole damn nation right. I am sorry, but I have zero sympathy for people who drive gas guzzlers. They should have known this was going to happen sooner or later. I expect this is a deliberately induced shortage, and it will be temporary. Atlanta is gasoline pipeline distribution point for most of the East Coast and we have millions of tons of gasoline about 2 miles from where I am sitting, so I think is extremely unlikely there is an actual shortage. But fundamentally there is a worldwide shortage of oil and it will only get worse. My wife is worried there may be riots, but I doubt it. - Jed
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
Woops. Maybe it is not an artificial shortage. See: http://www.ajc.com/news/content/business/0805/31bizgasprices.html The two pipelines that bring gasoline and jet fuel to the region are down powerless to pump as Hurricane Katrina wreaked havoc on electrical infrastructure. The metro Atlanta region generally has about a 10-day supply of gasoline in inventory, said BP spokesman Michael Kumpf. The pipelines have been down for two days. . . . - Jed
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
From: Jed Rothwell Woops. Maybe it is not an artificial shortage. See: http://www.ajc.com/news/content/business/0805/31bizgasprices.html The two pipelines that bring gasoline and jet fuel to the region are down powerless to pump as Hurricane Katrina wreaked havoc on electrical infrastructure. The metro Atlanta region generally has about a 10-day supply of gasoline in inventory, said BP spokesman Michael Kumpf. The pipelines have been down for two days. . . . Well, the timing is perfect: http://www.gasolineboycottday.org/
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
- Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 1:30 PM Subject: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta a friend of mine with an SUV just called. She went to three gas stations in Atlanta and they were out of gasoline. The fourth one, Citigo, was selling premium gasoline at $3.50 per gallon and they expect the price to rise to $4.00 within a few days. I told her serves you right for driving that big car! It serves the whole damn nation right. I am sorry, but I have zero sympathy for people who drive gas guzzlers. They should have known this was going to happen sooner or later. I expect this is a deliberately induced shortage, and it will be temporary. Atlanta is gasoline pipeline distribution point for most of the East Coast and we have millions of tons of gasoline about 2 miles from where I am sitting, so I think is extremely unlikely there is an actual shortage. But fundamentally there is a worldwide shortage of oil and it will only get worse. My wife is worried there may be riots, but I doubt it. - Jed I heard on CNBC that one of the pipelines to Atlanta is expected to have power by tomorrow evening. Not sure if the gasoline will be flowing, but at least there is light at the end of the tunnel. I agree, this is just an indication of the energy problems to come. Now we can all see just how quickly a commodity can move up in price when it's in short supply. What will happen when peak oil is reached?
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, 31 August, 2005 01:30 PM Subject: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta snip I told her serves you right for driving that big car! It serves the whole damn nation right. I am sorry, but I have zero sympathy for people who drive gas guzzlers. They should have known this was going to happen sooner or later. You go too far here. I'm sorry, but I am sure I am not the only one here who is getting a little tired of the holier than thou tirades. You drive a Prius, that's great. Enjoy it. I'm happy for you that you are happy with it. But guess what? Not all of us make as much money as you do. I am a full time Class A mechanic in the nearly jobless Buffalo New York area, bringing home a little over $12,000/yr. That, to say the least, sucks. Especially here in the great state of New York, where everything is illegal, there are cops out to get your money to offset Albany's stupidity and the Erie county budget crisis, etc, where insurance is ridiculously expensive, etc. I barely get by. Most of the people here do. Do I just need to work harder? How? You try lugging around transaxles all day long, for 40-42 hours a week, see if you can work harder! Get it straight, now: I CANNOT AFFORD A GOD DAMNED HYBRID! All I can afford are old, used cars, which are your hated gas guzzlers. I work ~15 miles from home as well, you want me to bike there? In the snow drifts? Not to mention that the buses here are DREADFUL, never on time, and half the time don't stop for you, they just keep going. Wake up, there is nothing else I or a large part of the working class can do about any of this! You want me to drive a ULEV/Hybrid? Then you get someone to sell me one for a price I can afford. And at $12k/yr, it better be damned cheap. If you have no alternative for those of us who work our rear-ends off for so little, then I suggest you kindly lay the hell off. And by the way, as far as SUV's go, I hate the damned things, because they are built like %^$. I work on these things daily, and they are overcomplicated junk. If only I could find a nice, old diesel Dasher..50mpg would be nice. Guy down the street sold his a while back for $1500. If I'd have known, it would be mine now. The Prius is newI am waiting to see what happens when the windings get fried by the salt environment of good old Buffalo. Anyone ever hear the phrase shit happens? That's what this storm is all about. I'll bet dollars to donuts that this has nothing to do with global warming, which whether it is really that big a deal or not, whether we are the root cause or not, is the catch all for every problem in this day and age. People have to blame something, and to feel like it is our fault, and we can do something about it (whether we choose to or not) makes people feel much better than having to say, you know, we can't control everything...there are forces greater than ourselves, and sometimes we just can do NOTHING. I am sorry if this offends my fellow Vortexians, I am not in a good way right now. My hometown is Ocean Springs Mississippi, a 15 minute drive from Biloxi, and my family is there. No communications with them. --Kyle
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
- Original Message - From: Kyle Mcallister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 8:37 PM Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, 31 August, 2005 01:30 PM Subject: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta snip I told her serves you right for driving that big car! It serves the whole damn nation right. I am sorry, but I have zero sympathy for people who drive gas guzzlers. They should have known this was going to happen sooner or later. You go too far here. I'm sorry, but I am sure I am not the only one here who is getting a little tired of the holier than thou tirades. You drive a Prius, that's great. Enjoy it. I'm happy for you that you are happy with it. But guess what? Not all of us make as much money as you do. I am a full time Class A mechanic in the nearly jobless Buffalo New York area, bringing home a little over $12,000/yr. That, to say the least, sucks. Especially here in the great state of New York, where everything is illegal, there are cops out to get your money to offset Albany's stupidity and the Erie county budget crisis, etc, where insurance is ridiculously expensive, etc. I barely get by. Most of the people here do. Do I just need to work harder? How? You try lugging around transaxles all day long, for 40-42 hours a week, see if you can work harder! Get it straight, now: I CANNOT AFFORD A GOD DAMNED HYBRID! All I can afford are old, used cars, which are your hated gas guzzlers. I work ~15 miles from home as well, you want me to bike there? In the snow drifts? Not to mention that the buses here are DREADFUL, never on time, and half the time don't stop for you, they just keep going. Wake up, there is nothing else I or a large part of the working class can do about any of this! You want me to drive a ULEV/Hybrid? Then you get someone to sell me one for a price I can afford. And at $12k/yr, it better be damned cheap. If you have no alternative for those of us who work our rear-ends off for so little, then I suggest you kindly lay the hell off. And by the way, as far as SUV's go, I hate the damned things, because they are built like %^$. I work on these things daily, and they are overcomplicated junk. If only I could find a nice, old diesel Dasher..50mpg would be nice. Guy down the street sold his a while back for $1500. If I'd have known, it would be mine now. The Prius is newI am waiting to see what happens when the windings get fried by the salt environment of good old Buffalo. Anyone ever hear the phrase shit happens? That's what this storm is all about. I'll bet dollars to donuts that this has nothing to do with global warming, which whether it is really that big a deal or not, whether we are the root cause or not, is the catch all for every problem in this day and age. People have to blame something, and to feel like it is our fault, and we can do something about it (whether we choose to or not) makes people feel much better than having to say, you know, we can't control everything...there are forces greater than ourselves, and sometimes we just can do NOTHING. I am sorry if this offends my fellow Vortexians, I am not in a good way right now. My hometown is Ocean Springs Mississippi, a 15 minute drive from Biloxi, and my family is there. No communications with them. --Kyle I just want to add that I too do not want to see people hurt by these price increases. I know many people are struggling. What I would like to see is pressure put on Washington to change our energy paradigm so we don't have these gas crises anymore. If Washington and the auto companies had pressure to produce more efficient vehicles, then even those of us, including myself, who buy cars in the used market would have more options to buy more fuel efficient used vehicles. Let's face it, we wouldn't be in the gas shortage pickel we are in today if we as a nation pursued more fuel efficient vehicles since the original gasoline crises in the 1970s. We got lazy as a nation and now everyone is paying the price. That is what I meant about waking up. I know individuals are often limited in their choices by financial considerations. -- John C
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
From: Kyle Mcallister From: Jed Rothwell snip I told her serves you right for driving that big car! It serves the whole damn nation right. I am sorry, but I have zero sympathy for people who drive gas guzzlers. They should have known this was going to happen sooner or later. You go too far here. I'm sorry, but I am sure I am not the only one here whois getting a little tired of the holier than thou tirades. ... [snip] FWIW, most vortexians completely understand and sympathize with the fact that low-income individuals families cannot afford to purchase expensive energy efficient hybrids. It is, in fact, one of the vexing problems with the current market of energy efficiency vehicles - they ain't cheap. Ya gott be rich to afford them. I can't afford one either. I can't speak for Jed, but what personally bothers me are those who DO make a decent income and therefore CAN afford to purchase any kind of car on the market. But what do many of them long for? What really jerks their chain? The biggest, meanest, the most powerful testosterone looking gas guzzling SUV they can get their hands on. Why? Because owning a SUV gives them the illusion that once they are behind the wheel they are sitting in the seat of power. The irony of those who buy into this illusion is that the more their SUV guzzles gas the more powerless they actually become because they have less discretionary income left in their wallets. My piston is bigger than yours! OPEC couldn't be happier. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
Kyle Mcallister writes: I am sorry, but I have zero sympathy for people who drive gas guzzlers. They should have known this was going to happen sooner or later. You go too far here. I'm sorry, but I am sure I am not the only one here who is getting a little tired of the holier than thou tirades. You drive a Prius, that's great. Enjoy it. I'm happy for you that you are happy with it. But guess what? Not all of us make as much money as you do. I am a full time Class A mechanic in the nearly jobless Buffalo New York area, bringing home a little over $12,000/yr. Sorry, let me amend that. I have zero sympathy for RICH people who drive new gas guzzler SUVs and Hummers. I have tons of sympathy for people like you who have no choice -- and I know several both here in Atlanta and in Pennsylvania. Unfortunately, things are going to get worse for you because in a few years when half the used cars will be SUVs. Get it straight, now: I CANNOT AFFORD A GOD DAMNED HYBRID! On the other hand, since you read this forum, you probably have a good grasp of engineering, and you buy the most fuel-efficient car you can, and to keep the tires properly filled and the engine in good shape. You probably conserve in other ways, such as by using compact flourescent lights. People who do that are part of the solution, whether they are rich or poor. Not to mention that the buses here are DREADFUL, never on time, and half the time don't stop for you, they just keep going. You should organize a protest, write to the editor, and raise hell to fix that problem. Given the critical shortages of gasoline, that is outrageous. That is the kind of thing that can be fixed. Wake up, there is nothing else I or a large part of the working class can do about any of this! Wake up yourself. There are lots of things you can do to conserve -- and you probably do them, as I said. Here is something else you can do: vote for candidates who say they will fix those buses and raise the CAFE standards. If there are no candidates who say that, then you should run yourself, by golly. It pays better than your present job. People everywhere are yearning for leadership, and in a democratic society it is up to the citizens to lead, if no one else will. If you run, and I like your platform, I will contribute to your campaign funding. You want me to drive a ULEV/Hybrid? Then you get someone to sell me one for a price I can afford. And at $12k/yr, it better be damned cheap. If you have no alternative for those of us who work our rear-ends off for so little, then I suggest you kindly lay the hell off. Since you are a mechanic you know the alternatives better than I do. And by the way, as far as SUV's go, I hate the damned things, because they are built like %^$. I work on these things daily, and they are overcomplicated junk. Amen to that. See the book High and Mighty. If only I could find a nice, old diesel Dasher..50mpg would be nice. Guy down the street sold his a while back for $1500. I used to have one like that -- an Isuzu diesel. Great car! A friend of mine is selling diesel replacement engines for Cessna aircraft. They sell replacement gas engines at the auto parts store near my house. I wonder if there is such thing as a replacement diesels for older cars? I suppose not, since they are so complicated and model-specific. . . . If there were such a thing, I am sure you would be qualified to install them. I predict that gasoline will never fall below $3 again, and that kind of thing will be a booming business soon. Anyone ever hear the phrase 'shit happens'? That's what this storm is all about. I'll bet dollars to donuts that this has nothing to do with 'global warming' . . . On what basis would you make that bet? Yesterday, the Japanese Ministry of the Environment officially said they think it *was* caused by global warming. They have measured far more typhoons and Atlantic hurricanes than ever before, and these storms are 20% stronger than they have been for the last century. They have previously said that the ocean water is 1 or 2 deg C warmer than ever, and the Inland Sea level has risen several centimeters. Why are you so sure you know better than the Environmental Min.? I will grant they may be wrong, but they do not go around saying thing like that on a whim, and they have a huge amount of evidence to back up their claim. Of course the U.S. government will not say anything like this, but is administration policy. I am sure most U.S. experts agree these severe storms are caused by global warming. There is, at this moment, a typhoon of unprecidented strength bearing down on Japan. The storms in Japan last year and this year were by far the worst in modern history. People there take this subject seriously. People have to blame something, and to feel like it is our fault, and we can do something about it (whether we choose to or not) . . . In this case, people are right.
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
Original Message - From: OrionWorks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:59 PM Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta From: Kyle Mcallister From: Jed Rothwell snip I told her serves you right for driving that big car! It serves the whole damn nation right. I am sorry, but I have zero sympathy for people who drive gas guzzlers. They should have known this was going to happen sooner or later. You go too far here. I'm sorry, but I am sure I am not the only one here whois getting a little tired of the holier than thou tirades. ... [snip] FWIW, most vortexians completely understand and sympathize with the fact that low-income individuals families cannot afford to purchase expensive energy efficient hybrids. It is, in fact, one of the vexing problems with the current market of energy efficiency vehicles - they ain't cheap. Ya gott be rich to afford them. I can't afford one either. One of the reasons we agititate for a new energy regime such as cold fusion is out of concern for social justice. For those who are struggling in this world. Taking expensive energy out of the current economic equation would certainly raise everyone's standard of living in many ways. On our way to an exotic energy source like cold fusion or ZPE we can focus on some of the exciting new energy technologies from new solar schemes to highly efficient automobiles to bring about some energy parity. The way gasoline is racing higher this summer should indicate to everyone that gasoline does not have a future as a prime energy source.
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
From: Jed Rothwell I would say I am praying for them, but alas I am stone cold atheist, and I do not pray for anything. But, of course, you hope for the best for them. Pas de difference. You are a wise man, Jed; however, I protest that you do not know enough to prove a negative. A wise man might claim to be an agnostic. I claim to be a gnostic, I know that I can know. I know that I know little.
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
OrionWorks writes: I can't speak for Jed, but what personally bothers me are those who DO make a decent income and therefore CAN afford to purchase any kind of car on the market. But what do many of them long for? What really jerks their chain? The biggest, meanest, the most powerful testosterone looking gas guzzling SUV they can get their hands on. Why? Because owning a SUV gives them the illusion that once they are behind the wheel they are sitting in the seat of power. EXACTLY right. I could not have put it better. I think many of these people are pathetic losers, and now that we face a real crisis, global warming, and a war for oil, they are unpatriotic jerks. (Okay, it may not be a war for oil exactly, but oil plays a big role, and we would not be fighting it if Iraq had no oil.) The auto companies figured out the personality of the typical SUV buyer years ago, and began targeting ads. It is not a pretty picture. See Bradsher's book High and Mighty. A review is here: http://www.oilcrash.com/articles/suvs.htm I should not exaggerate though. There are some fine people who drive SUVs, and some who need them, such as mechanics, carpenters and farmers. - Jed
Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
Kyle wrote.. I am a full timeClass A mechanic in the nearly jobless Buffalo New York area, bringing homea little over $12,000/yr. That, to say the least, sucks. Especially here .. Kyle , 12k is below the welfare rate. You would be better off moving back to ole Miss and get a job rebuilding gambling casinos where you can ride a bike to work. Richard
