Re: CF and Orientation .
At 02:04 AM 11/28/2004, Horace Heffner wrote: At 11:11 PM 11/27/4, Harry Veeder wrote: Hi, This is my first post. I was wondering if anyone in CF community has looked for evidence of a correlation between the orientation of a CF cell and the amount of excess heat produced. Perhaps the performance of a CF cell would change if the cell or some of its parts were rotated 90 degrees or even spun. This questions are based on the speculation that the direction of gravity (rather than the magnitude of gravity) may effect the performance of CF cells. Harry Veeder I don't know of any gravitational effects related to actual CF. However, Mitchell Schwartz, who posts here sometimes and is publiher of COLD FUSION TIMES, has published on the existence of *calorimetry anomalies* relating to gravity. Issues related to convection and stratification are important to the design of reliable calorimeters. Improperly designed calorimeters can give false data regarding CF. Calorimetry is vitally important to the study of CF because the heat signature of CF does not appear concurrent with the high energy particle emissions characteristic of hot fusion. Regards, Horace Heffner Horace is correct. The ideas are interesting. Regarding calorimeters, there are several possible ways both thermal stratification and Bernard instability can effect all and vertically-directed flow calorimeters, respectively. The latter can be corrected. Thus, continuum electromechanics (through possible Bernard instabilities both within and outside calorimeters) can be used to analyze these systems and suggest possible sources of error and means to improve calculations. The relevant papers are: ROLE OF GRAVITY IN PRODUCING ERRORS IN HORIZONTAL-FLOW CALORIMETERS Swartz, M., Potential for Positional Variation in Flow Calorimetric Systems, Journal of New Energy 1,1, 126-130 (1996) (*) Swartz, M, Improved Calculations Involving Energy Release Using a Buoyancy Transport Correction, Journal of New Energy, 1, 3, 219-221 (1996) ROLE OF GRAVITY IN THERMAL STRATIFICATION Swartz, M., Relative Impact of Thermal Stratification of the Air Surrounding a Calorimeter, Journal of New Energy, 2, 219-221 (1996) Swartz, M., Time Course of Thermal Stratification and Its Relevance to Flow Calorimeters, Journal of New Energy, 4, 4, 120-125, (2000). Also relevant == Swartz. M., Patterns of Failure in Cold Fusion Experiments, Proceedings of the 33RD Intersociety Engineering Conference on Energy Conversion, IECEC-98-I229, Colorado Springs, CO, August 2-6, (1998) Swartz. M., G. Verner, A. Frank, H. Fox Importance of Non-dimensional Numbers and Optimal Operating Points in Cold Fusion, Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 215-217 (1999) Swartz, M., Thermal Conduction and Non-differential Temperature Corrections to the Enthalpic Flow Equation, Journal of New Energy, 3, 1, 10-13, (1998)
Re: CF and Orientation .
At 1:19 AM 12/3/4, Harry Veeder wrote: After reading some more, it seems to me a more accurate name for this field is non-inertial-chemistry. Gravi-chemistry is misleading unless you are endorsing the general theory of relativity which assumes that an accelerating or non-inertial frame of reference and a gravitational field are indistinguishable. Gravity and acceleration are indistinguishable *at a point*, not a complete inertial frame. Unless one is in a uniform gravitational field, gravity and linear acceleration are distinguishable by tidal effects. In the famous elevator, it is possible to tell if the elevator is in free-fall in a gravitional field or floating in space. It is possible to tell if it is resting on a gravitational body, being spun about (gravity due to centrifugal force), or being accelerated by a rocket. All assumes you have sufficiently fine equipment to detect the tidal forces. Gravi-chem should work fine in a high gravity field, it's just the machine design that changes. The fundamental principle is still bouyancy, at least for the electrolyte environment. Regards, Horace Heffner
Re: CF and Orientation .
At 11:11 PM 11/27/4, Harry Veeder wrote: Hi, This is my first post. I was wondering if anyone in CF community has looked for evidence of a correlation between the orientation of a CF cell and the amount of excess heat produced. Perhaps the performance of a CF cell would change if the cell or some of its parts were rotated 90 degrees or even spun. This questions are based on the speculation that the direction of gravity (rather than the magnitude of gravity) may effect the performance of CF cells. Harry Veeder In replying to your query earlier I should have noted that centrifugal force can be used to improve electrolysis in general. For example, the following is a post of mine from 2003: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ELECTROLYSER DESIGN The following is a proposed design and some design considerations for a high efficiency electrolyser, especially one where the cathode and anode gasses can be provided as a mixed product, or gas only evolves from one plate. Further, a means is provided to place ordinary hydrogen electrolysis in these categories by extracting the hydrogen directly through the cathode. It is well known that reducing plate separation, in order to reduce cell resistance, is required to increase existing cell efficiency. It is also known that slow bubble evolution limits the closeness of plates due to the reduction of plate area and effective current path area. Electrolysers currently rely on gravity to remove their bubbles using displacement forces, but reduce the bubble formation rate by operating at high pressure. One method suggested here to solve the bubble problem is to place the plates in a rotatable centrifugal tank as shown in Fig. 1. (Fixed proportion font like courier is required for viewing Fig. 1) The plates are thus in annular coaxial form with central circular holes with radial spokes connected to a central shaft, with insulating spacers and/or axial bolts included to hold the plate array together. This use of a centrifugal force on the rotating plates permits the effectiveness of removing bubbles to be increased by two or more orders of magnitude over the use of gravity. The process is made continuous by replenishing the electrolyte and retrieving the evolved gas through a central open space in the centrifuge and/or through piping in a hollow central rotor shaft. During rotation, the electrolyte is pinned to the outer walls of the cylindrical tank by centrifugal force. - I - KEY: | - . I . - | | = . I . = | -| - rotating electrolyser tank | = . I . = | .. - rotating electrolyte level | = . I . = | == - rotating electrolytic plates | = . I . = | I - central rotor shaft | = . I . = | - - direction of electrolyte flow | = . I . = | | = . I . = | | - . I . - | ---I--- Fig. 1 - Centrifugal Electrolysis Device By placing the entire apparatus inside a pressure vessel, with appropriate plumbing and electrical connections, and temperature control, operation can occur at high temperatures and pressures currently in use with high efficiency electrolysers. The use of bubble scrubbing dielectric particles in the electrolyte is feasible in this configuration due the pumping action of the electrolyte through the plates due to the displacement force of the bubbles. The electrolyte flow between the plates is thus toward the central shaft, and the flow outside the plate region is axially away from the central rotor shaft as shown by arrows in Fig. 1. The largest dimension of such particles should be about one fourth the plate separation distance. Using the methods described here, plate separation can be made almost arbitrarily close, but plate thickness itself is increased due to the need for plate structural strength and diffusion requirements. When electrolysing hydrogen, use can be made of a diffuse or porous (essentially transparent to hydrogen) but structurally strong material as a supporting structure for a Pd surfaced cathode in the centrifuge. Such a material can be made by sintering metal or ceramic granules of the size required for the support of the Pd. A gradation of granularity can be made to occur, with the finest granularity located at the cathode surface, just below the palladium surface. The Pd coated cathode's interior would then either be hollow or very porous, so as to conduct the H2 gas away from the electrolyser directly through the plate interior and then through a hollow supporting structure (e.g. spokes) for the plate, and to a hollow central rotor. In this manner, only O2 would evolve between the plates. The hydrogen principally is driven into the cathode interior by the high operating pressure, but also by the electrolytic potential. The electrolytic plates in the suggested use act as cathode on
Re: CF and Orientation .
At 11:11 PM 11/27/4, Harry Veeder wrote: Hi, This is my first post. I was wondering if anyone in CF community has looked for evidence of a correlation between the orientation of a CF cell and the amount of excess heat produced. Perhaps the performance of a CF cell would change if the cell or some of its parts were rotated 90 degrees or even spun. This questions are based on the speculation that the direction of gravity (rather than the magnitude of gravity) may effect the performance of CF cells. Harry Veeder In replying to your query earlier I should have also noted that centrifugal force can be used to advantage in chemical processes, and may have energy generation prospects as well. I will post separately a summary of 2003 posts of mine on the subject of Gravi-chem. Regards, Horace Heffner
Re: CF and Orientation .
on 12/2/04 8:32 AM, Horace Heffner at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 11:11 PM 11/27/4, Harry Veeder wrote: Hi, This is my first post. I was wondering if anyone in CF community has looked for evidence of a correlation between the orientation of a CF cell and the amount of excess heat produced. Perhaps the performance of a CF cell would change if the cell or some of its parts were rotated 90 degrees or even spun. This questions are based on the speculation that the direction of gravity (rather than the magnitude of gravity) may effect the performance of CF cells. Harry Veeder In replying to your query earlier I should have also noted that centrifugal force can be used to advantage in chemical processes, and may have energy generation prospects as well. I will post separately a summary of 2003 posts of mine on the subject of Gravi-chem. Regards, Horace Heffner That is interesting innovation. I looked at your other posts where you describe the concept in more detail. It is not quite what I mean, BUT it does suggest away of testing my hunch. My hunch is that earth's gravity plays a essential role in the generation excess heat in a CF cell. If I am correct, then rotating the same apparatus will change the amount of excess heat generated. ( I am not sure if the change will be positive or negative.) Of course, to properly test my hunch, the CF cell would have to be designed in such a way that the electrolytic performance is not appreciably improved or worsened when undergoing rotation. Would it be possible build such an 'indifferent electrolytic cell'? Harry
Re: CF and Orientation .
on 12/2/04 12:40 PM, Horace Heffner at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 11:58 AM 12/2/4, Harry Veeder wrote: My hunch is that earth's gravity plays a essential role in the generation excess heat in a CF cell. If I am correct, then rotating the same apparatus will change the amount of excess heat generated. ( I am not sure if the change will be positive or negative.) Of course, to properly test my hunch, the CF cell would have to be designed in such a way that the electrolytic performance is not appreciably improved or worsened when undergoing rotation. Would it be possible build such an 'indifferent electrolytic cell'? So you hope to do an experiment? Regards, Horace Heffner Of some kind. I hope. I misunderstood the focus of your 'gravi-chem' research. I thought your focus was D+D fusion. Is it fair to say the primary focus of your research is the critique of the conservation laws by physical means? Harry
Re: CF and Orientation .
At 4:02 PM 12/2/4, Harry Veeder wrote: I misunderstood the focus of your 'gravi-chem' research. I thought your focus was D+D fusion. Is it fair to say the primary focus of your research is the critique of the conservation laws by physical means? Actually, if you look at the vortex archives at http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex around June or July 2003, you will see that the gravi-chem stuff was merely comments I posted here on vortex as a result of what I considered some bad math written by folks who apparently had no concept of bouyancy. It did seem to take a life of its own though because it is so general in nature and so unexplored. The immediate energy application is probably in the mundane field of hydrogen generation I would guess. If there is indeed free energy to be had from the theory (I doubt it) then it is likely to be had in chemical form. The only clear relation of gravi-chem to CF is the fact that electrolysis is one mode of CF and a more efficient electrolysis merely results in a better COP (coefficient of power) for a CF device. However, extremely high g forces change the location of the nucleus to a point away from the center of charge of the electron cloud. The electron cloud can thus be compressed, and electron shielding can potentially be increased. The distance between deuterons in D2, D2O, and D3O+ molecules can be decreased under extreme pressure, thereby increasing the potential for fusion. As evidenced by neutron stars, *some* degree of gravitational force or compressive force will ultimately cause nuclear reactions. The problem is how best to make use of such a force in a practically achievable domain. My main focus, if I have such, being a rank amateur and irreverant member of the free energy lunatic finge, is collaboration in search of a solution to the energy problem. There is also the joy of seeing various anomalies and puzzles posted here on occasion. When you subscribe to vortex you never know for sure when you wake up exactly what you might possess your thinking by evening. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner
Re: CF and Orientation .
on 12/2/04 5:36 PM, Horace Heffner at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 4:02 PM 12/2/4, Harry Veeder wrote: I misunderstood the focus of your 'gravi-chem' research. I thought your focus was D+D fusion. Is it fair to say the primary focus of your research is the critique of the conservation laws by physical means? Actually, if you look at the vortex archives at http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex around June or July 2003, you will see that the gravi-chem stuff was merely comments I posted here on vortex as a result of what I considered some bad math written by folks who apparently had no concept of bouyancy. It did seem to take a life of its own though because it is so general in nature and so unexplored. The immediate energy application is probably in the mundane field of hydrogen generation I would guess. If there is indeed free energy to be had from the theory (I doubt it) then it is likely to be had in chemical form. The only clear relation of gravi-chem to CF is the fact that electrolysis is one mode of CF and a more efficient electrolysis merely results in a better COP (coefficient of power) for a CF device. However, extremely high g forces change the location of the nucleus to a point away from the center of charge of the electron cloud. The electron cloud can thus be compressed, and electron shielding can potentially be increased. The distance between deuterons in D2, D2O, and D3O+ molecules can be decreased under extreme pressure, thereby increasing the potential for fusion. As evidenced by neutron stars, *some* degree of gravitational force or compressive force will ultimately cause nuclear reactions. The problem is how best to make use of such a force in a practically achievable domain. My main focus, if I have such, being a rank amateur and irreverant member of the free energy lunatic finge, is collaboration in search of a solution to the energy problem. There is also the joy of seeing various anomalies and puzzles posted here on occasion. When you subscribe to vortex you never know for sure when you wake up exactly what you might possess your thinking by evening. 8^) After reading some more, it seems to me a more accurate name for this field is non-inertial-chemistry. Gravi-chemistry is misleading unless you are endorsing the general theory of relativity which assumes that an accelerating or non-inertial frame of reference and a gravitational field are indistinguishable. Harry Harry
Re: CF and Orientation .
on 11/28/04 2:04 AM, Horace Heffner at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 11:11 PM 11/27/4, Harry Veeder wrote: Hi, This is my first post. I was wondering if anyone in CF community has looked for evidence of a correlation between the orientation of a CF cell and the amount of excess heat produced. Perhaps the performance of a CF cell would change if the cell or some of its parts were rotated 90 degrees or even spun. This questions are based on the speculation that the direction of gravity (rather than the magnitude of gravity) may effect the performance of CF cells. Harry Veeder I don't know of any gravitational effects related to actual CF. However, Mitchell Schwartz, who posts here sometimes and is publiher of COLD FUSION TIMES, has published on the existence of *calorimetry anomalies* relating to gravity. Issues related to convection and stratification are important to the design of reliable calorimeters. Improperly designed calorimeters can give false data regarding CF. Calorimetry is vitally important to the study of CF because the heat signature of CF does not appear concurrent with the high energy particle emissions characteristic of hot fusion. Regards, Horace Heffner Thanks, but please don't get me wrong. I am not insinuating that gravity is generating misleading calorimetric measurements. Rather I am suggesting gravity plays a significant role in the creation of excess heat, even though the leading theories of gravity imply it can be ignored. Harry
Re: CF and Orientation .
on 11/28/04 6:44 AM, Steven Krivit at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Harry, Welcome to Vortex. Dennis Letts has performed some experimentation with magnets, at a certain orientation, surrounding a cf cell. Perhaps others have as well. Steve Thank you for the welcome. My question concerns the orientation of a CF cell and its parts relative to to the direction of gravity (i.e. relative to a level surface). BTW, are lists members aware of the experimental and theoretical work of Peter Fred? He maintains there is a relationship between gravity and the flow of heat. If you would like more more information, please see Peter Fred's website www.thermal-force.com/Copper.htm Harry Veeder
Re: CF and Orientation .
At 2:21 PM 11/28/4, Harry Veeder wrote: Thanks, but please don't get me wrong. I am not insinuating that gravity is generating misleading calorimetric measurements. Yes, understood, but I am asserting that there in fact is good evidence gravity does play a role if calorimeters are not properly designed. Rather I am suggesting gravity plays a significant role in the creation of excess heat, even though the leading theories of gravity imply it can be ignored. Do you have any experimental or theoretical evidence to support that? Regards, Horace Heffner
Re: CF and Orientation .
on 11/28/04 8:25 PM, Horace Heffner at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 2:21 PM 11/28/4, Harry Veeder wrote: Thanks, but please don't get me wrong. I am not insinuating that gravity is generating misleading calorimetric measurements. Yes, understood, but I am asserting that there in fact is good evidence gravity does play a role if calorimeters are not properly designed. Rather I am suggesting gravity plays a significant role in the creation of excess heat, even though the leading theories of gravity imply it can be ignored. Do you have any experimental or theoretical evidence to support that? None. I have a hunch which I wanted to share with the list. Harry
Re: CF and Orientation .
Excuse me! That is Mitchell Swartz who posts here sometimes and is publiher of COLD FUSION TIMES and who has published on the existence of *calorimetric anomalies* relating to gravity. Regards, Horace Heffner
