Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement
Hi everyone, I just came back from vacation and am catching up with my e-mail right now. I may be late to the discussion, but I want to throw in my two cents anyway :-) What is the Metaverse? (Matrix, Cyberspace, YouNameIt) In my opinion, it is not a protocol/file-format/system, it is a feature. background In the traditional Internet world, you don't have a one-size-fits- all protocol, file format, or tool. What you use depends on the requirements of your application. If you want to transfer a file, you use an FTP client and the FTP protocol over TCP. If you want a live audio stream, you use an audio player supporting RTP (or something similar) over UDP. Sure, there is the common IP protocol, but by itself it is good for nothing at all. The WWW integrates a number of these different functions in the form of hyperlinked multi-media documents. But this is still only a partial solution! Sure you can watch a video in the browser, but for a better experience most people download it and use a full-screen standalone player. Sure you can design great documents with HTML/CSS, but PDF still has its place. There is AJAX, but... you catch my drift. The Web-Browser can get you 90% of almost everything, but never all, and nobody really expects it to. Its main quality is to provide a common interface for browsing information. /background The Metaverse/Cyberspace/Matrix in SF literature has the same quality as the WWW - it is an integrator for a number of different spatial content and applications. This is something we don't have today, regardless of what LL or anybody claims. VRML, Collada, Flux, even VOS... interesting building blocks already out there, but no Metaverse by themself. I don't believe that a single protocol, data model, or system could ever solve all problems and accomplish every goal. Like in the traditional Internet, the requirements differ too much among 3D applications. When you chat with friends in a virtual pub, you need a different protocol than when you go to the arcade to play an FPS game. When you do virtual flight training, you need a different data model than when you study surgery at Virtual Medical School. And so on... In my opinion, if we want a Metaverse (do we?), we need something that can get us from application A to B without too much of a hiccup. It likely has to support multiple protocols and data models for this purpose. It will not deliver 90% right from the start, and I'd settle for a lot less. After all, you cannot really compare Mosaic to Mozilla. The question to ask of every protocol/data model/tool thus is, how well does it serve integration? Or in other words: How metaverse is it? Regards, Karsten Otto (kao) ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement
MEtaverseS Hell you say? I believe it IS hell! =D It was this guy (whose page I found a few days ago), that realized what, even ActiveWorlds, could become. Since the year 2000, he seems to have been ruminating on his thoughts about the capabilities of a 3d environment. He goes so far as to say Operating System at one point, but please look past that. It takes a specific kind of insanity to want to program an entire operating system. http://www.tnlc.com/eep/aw/ While AW is not implicitly a game, I believe it would develop far more quickly if it was treated and developed as a game Game replayability is much higher with a level editor than without. People are more likely to play levels made by other people and groups of people long after the original game levels have been played to death And there's no reason such games can't be linked together seamlessly without requiring separate 3D engines made my separate gaming companies to be loaded, sucking up even more memory and CPU power than they already do. The possibilities are endless for seamless 3D environments, and the key would be the interconnectedness of them all. And of course many people could be in these environments just like all the illions of people on the Net today If people realized the potential of just such an on-line, multi-user, 3D holodeck, I think they would be willing to see that 3D offers far more immersive potential than 2D could ever dream of doing If games in general were programmed more modularly to allow other developers to add connected environments to deepen the level of immersion within the game, I think that would draw even more popularity -Steve ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement
On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 09:26:59AM -0600, S Mattison wrote: The TerAngreal browser, I feel, doesn't serve as an integrative metaversal tool; because it uses proprietary OS-GUI-interface system calls, to generate the 'chat area' as well as the 'user list', and even the 'menus'. Well ironically, the point of that is to serve integration with the user's desktop. For various reasons, 3D-based GUIs tend to be clunky, due either to lack of polish (the GUI hasn't had the years of development attention that say GTK has), lack of integration with the desktop (things like cutting and pasting doesn't work like the rest of the desktop, if it works at all) or simply being slow (because the GUI is rendered on top of the 3D scene, the update rate of the controls is throttled to that of the update rate of the 3D scene as a whole.) Thus, the use of WxWidgets to create a native look and feel was a deliberate design decision, not because it was easier (because it's not, it actually makes some things a lot harder.) -- [ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet] [ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ] [ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey: pgpkeys.mit.edu 18C21DF7 ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement
First of all I should mention that I don't speak for VOS/Interreality 3D -- which you seem to be assuming I do. I'm just an enthusiast following their progress and hoping to contribute a bit. I know what *I* want the metaverse to be, and I'm especially annoyed at the Lindens for attempting to appropriate the term and therefore am a bit sensitive to new press releases making hype about the metaverse. And that's basically it. I do think -- if they do it right -- Flux Worlds will be a useful product and an important step in open-standard virtual-worlds. But I maintain that it's an evolutionary step, not a revolutionary one -- and it's no reason not to aim farther ahead, or to abandon all alternate paths. Also, as far as I've seen, VOS isn't making lots of publicity or preannouncements -- Peter, Reed et al have been quietly working away for a few years trying to get a good base technology working from the ground up. And they *do* have running code. So I'm really not sure where a lot of your comments are coming from. -Ken - Original Message - From: Len Bullard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'VOS Discussion' vos-d@interreality.org Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement Because when you don't hit the mark, it causes people to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Visions are ok, but lots of publicity and preannouncements without the goods takes on the rep of being snake-oil. It is a very bad strategy to get into a market with the aim of eliminating all competitors. It screws the customers over. Netscape made that mistake and they had their collective rears handed to them. To me, metaverse is just another word. It has no ownership and only as much meaning as there is running code to support it. It's like saying 'Heaven' and then setting up the dogma without the pragma. So no offense, but don't get possessive with a term. Offering up suggestions is cool. It is cooler to offer them with running code. He isn't exactly playing it safe. He has code, he spent the company money to get it ready for open source, and he has the access to the standards editors. Is it more of the same? We've had shared spaces but no standard for hooking those up without buying Blaxxun Community server or any of the various other products. All we've had is client standards. What Tony is talking about is a protocol that can be implemented anywhere, and possibly a reduction in costs for authors to have worlds that is ten percent of what it costs to host at LL. That is significant. Now don't get me wrong, I am not quarreling with the VOS vision or the work. I'm saying if he manages to get this done, it puts something on the street a lot of people need, so stepping back and saying that's not a true Metaverse is sour grapes. No one really knows what a metaverse is. You know what you want it to be and that is cool, but not authoritative or a reason to say he doesn't have one. We got in trouble by promising a science fantasy world that couldn't be built then if ever, and it turned people off to 3D on the web for ten years. If he gets shared spaces out there for ten percent of the cost of SL and does it with content standards that enable the content to move around among worlds without being hostage to POTS server farm market, that is an AMAZING and very revolutionary accomplishment. Give him cred, then get back to your vision and show the next new thing when it is ready to show. It's bad karma to climb up the backs of other swimmers trying to stay afloat in the same ocean. len -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Taylor Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 9:59 PM To: VOS Discussion Subject: Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement I think that a basic open-standard shared-space server based on X3D is an obvious and safe step -- Flux Worlds will probably be very successful at what it does. But in my view, it doesn't bring us any closer to the metaverse and I hate when people through that word around (ever since the Lindens started doing so). To me it really is just more of the same -- we've had shared space servers around almost as long as VRML itself, and we're not that much closer to a true interconnected 3d universe on the internet. Someone has to stop playing it safe for anything revolutionary to occur. But what's wrong with snowcrash-like thinking or visions anyway? ;) -Ken - Original Message - From: Len Bullard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'VOS Discussion' vos-d@interreality.org Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 7:47 PM Subject: Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement We learned the really hard way in the early years of VRML to take it slow when trying to create something intended to scale out the Internet. I won't quarrel with your requirements but I also am very leary of anything that reeks of Snowcrash-like thinking or visions. We
Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement
First of all I should mention that I don't speak for VOS/Interreality 3D -- which you seem to be assuming I do. I'm just an enthusiast following their progress and hoping to contribute a bit. I've lurked on the list for a few years now. There are lots of projects but this one has staying power based on the core of people building it. That I support. I am a VRML content builder among other things, but I support real-time 3D in general. I know what *I* want the metaverse to be, and I'm especially annoyed at the Lindens for attempting to appropriate the term and therefore am a bit sensitive to new press releases making hype about the metaverse. And that's basically it. That will only frustrate. The press, the Lindens, their investors, all will work hard to create a patina of invention and legitimacy up to and including rewriting history. That is how the web was won. Can you imagine how irritating it was for the SGML hypertext community to read that Tim Berners-Lee had *invented* hypertext and THE hypertext markup language? The history wasn't that well known so it worked at scale. Hype works. Investors expect it. The way to fight that is to correct the press, but don't fight over terms like *metaverse*. It is already a hype term that has very little meaning. What is a 'metaverse'? We have the same problems with 'virtual reality'. It is just a genre of real-time 3D. VOS has yet to find a genre that is easily summarized. That might be good because it continues to fly under the radar. About the worst thing that can happen is to have the press locusts descend on it before it is ready. I can't count the number of web projects gone South that I've seen because the fringes decided it needed a big press boost or more cred than it had earned. Of such is a bubble made. The VRMLers are careful to acknowledge VRML's roots in practical commercial products, eg, SGI Open Inventor. As a result, when a blogger or press release talks about how VRML was created on the web, but is not a practical product, it is easy to point to the evolution from the SGI product line and correct that. One thing the press really hates is to have their credibility ripped from them with factual reporting. I do think -- if they do it right -- Flux Worlds will be a useful product and an important step in open-standard virtual-worlds. But I maintain that it's an evolutionary step, not a revolutionary one -- There are revolutions of technology and revolutions of scale and market. HTML was not a revolution. It was a design that was decades old. The markup design was essentially the work of Truly Donovan, not Tim or Dan. The US Army had a DTD-less stylesheet driven markup hypertext browser years before XML. HTTP is even less of a revolution. In combination, they caused a scaling effect that was a market revolution. A generation of not-very-adept programmers picked it up and did cool things with it, but the generation that took it to the next level was already very adept and mostly 40-somethings. The press didn't find that very good reading. Fifteen years later, none of it matters, but don't underrate the power of the press to fuel a revolution in market where there was no revolution in technology. and it's no reason not to aim farther ahead, or to abandon all alternate paths. I agree and those paths are also no reason to slag the sincere and working efforts of the VRMLers to get the next piece of their puzzle in place because of the term 'metaverse'. The press made the term popular, not the technologists. You don't own it. The Lindens don't. Parisi doesn't. Everyone will use it as they see fit. It may even die fast because it is a hype term subject to dissolution because it has no insolvent core meaning. Also, as far as I've seen, VOS isn't making lots of publicity or preannouncements -- Peter, Reed et al have been quietly working away for a few years trying to get a good base technology working from the ground up. And they *do* have running code. I know. I keep track. I am waiting to see what this emerges as because so far, it is *geekSpeakBound* and while that is good for the programmers, it won't mean a thing to the content developers or the market. I'm waiting for that synergy when hot content and new technology merge. I warn you though, technology is largely invisible. If VOS creates yetAnotherSocialSpace, it is an also ran. Customers are never wowed by how neat your classes are. So I'm really not sure where a lot of your comments are coming from. 25+ years of experience. Don't get hung up on the terms or claims to primacy as if this project were THE Metaverse. That will just earn these guys enemies where they don't earn them themselves and critics where it isn't in need of critique. So far, VOS is a small personal project with a mail list and some running code, but nothing yet to show that will impress the market. I am impressed by the staying power of the core contributors.
Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement
Tony says more details about their system and protocol will be available later in April (after they present it at the Web3D Symposium). With s5 we've talked about tweaking the A3DL object model a bit for various reasons. One thing we can do is make A3DL line up with X3D/VRML a bit better, which would help with loading VRML into a VOS server. Another possability I'd be interested in looking at is if SWMP is suitable for plugging in as an alternative transport protocol -- I don't think the documentation talks much about it, and we've never really done to much with the idea, but we've always had the idea that VOS objects could communicate in different ways other than just over the network using a protocol like VIP. E.g. different sites in a cluster of computers could communicate much faster through shared memory or something like that. Sites could also talk to each other using different protocols. Not sure yet how to bridge to completely different multiuser 3D systems but at some point we might see if it's possible. Reed Reed Hedges wrote: Subject: [www-vrml] Flux Worlds Server Announcement From: Tony Parisi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:08:27 -0700 To: 'x3d-public list' [EMAIL PROTECTED], 'www-vrml' [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'x3d-public list' [EMAIL PROTECTED], 'www-vrml' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Return-path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Envelope-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivery-date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:23:26 -0400 Received: from server5.outofcontrol.ca ([67.15.54.3] helo=web3d.org) by interreality.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from [EMAIL PROTECTED]) id 1HXOZC-0004hj-49 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:23:26 -0400 Received: (from [EMAIL PROTECTED]) by web3d.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) id l2UL8b5q002738 for www-vrml-outgoing; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:08:37 -0400 X-ClientAddr: 68.142.198.206 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-YMail-OSG: YdctFGYVM1n.8kk5AKF_NK_BHTa6B4bhKOAcp60Dh6ruxknPqKH_FaSL8MKh.mRJL3H472LKdmQMt_3gT73yu_cgkQ-- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdzD3XDRb6swz8uR6SHIti2zgRz2w== X-OutofControl-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-OutofControl-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 67.15.54.3 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on interreality.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7-deb X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:51:29 +) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on interreality.org) Folks, We've been up to something over here - thought I would tell you about it before you heard it on the street. Media Machines has been developing a multi-user server based on a new protocol that we intend to put out into the open. We have dubbed it Simple Wide Area Multi-User Protocol, or SWMP (pronounced swamp). The intent is to work with Web3D and potentially other organizations to standardize SWMP. We will also supply a basic open source implementation. Our overriding goal-- one that we are pursuing with total passion and vigor-- is to create an open infrastructure for the Metaverse. We have wrapped SWMP into a server product called Flux Worlds. Flux Worlds is currently in alpha test. While the product is still several weeks away from beta test, we announced it yesterday with the goal of attracting early signups for the beta. We are also integrating a prototype of the new X3D networking nodes being developing by the Networking Working Group, right into Flux Player. The results look promising. Anyway, here is the announcement. We would love to have you be part of the beta when it's ready! http://www.mediamachines.com/press/pressrelease-03292007.php Remember, the Metaverse needs open protocols. Without them... everything else is Just a World. Yours virtually, Tony - Tony Parisi 415-902-8002 President/CEO [EMAIL PROTECTED] Media Machines, Inc.www.mediamachines.com Add 3D content to your web page with the Flux Player. Go to www.mediamachines.com to upload and share your 3D content. - - for list subscription/unsubscription, go to http://www.web3d.org/cgi-bin/public_list_signup/lwgate/listsavail.html
[vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement
---BeginMessage--- Folks, We've been up to something over here - thought I would tell you about it before you heard it on the street. Media Machines has been developing a multi-user server based on a new protocol that we intend to put out into the open. We have dubbed it Simple Wide Area Multi-User Protocol, or SWMP (pronounced swamp). The intent is to work with Web3D and potentially other organizations to standardize SWMP. We will also supply a basic open source implementation. Our overriding goal-- one that we are pursuing with total passion and vigor-- is to create an open infrastructure for the Metaverse. We have wrapped SWMP into a server product called Flux Worlds. Flux Worlds is currently in alpha test. While the product is still several weeks away from beta test, we announced it yesterday with the goal of attracting early signups for the beta. We are also integrating a prototype of the new X3D networking nodes being developing by the Networking Working Group, right into Flux Player. The results look promising. Anyway, here is the announcement. We would love to have you be part of the beta when it's ready! http://www.mediamachines.com/press/pressrelease-03292007.php Remember, the Metaverse needs open protocols. Without them... everything else is Just a World. Yours virtually, Tony - Tony Parisi 415-902-8002 President/CEO [EMAIL PROTECTED] Media Machines, Inc.www.mediamachines.com Add 3D content to your web page with the Flux Player. Go to www.mediamachines.com to upload and share your 3D content. - - for list subscription/unsubscription, go to http://www.web3d.org/cgi-bin/public_list_signup/lwgate/listsavail.html ---End Message--- ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement
Remember, the Metaverse needs open protocols. Without them... everything else is Just a World. I agree with this, and I'm glad that more and more people are realizing it. However, though it's necessary, it's not sufficient to create the metaverse. Some other requirements I would use to evaluate any metaverse system: - Not only can anyone run a server, but they can easily interlink and users can freely traverse the spaces between different servers, with the potential for seamlessly connecting virtual spaces (eg, with portals). - The protocol is future-proof and can keep up with developments in technology and new ideas for interaction while maintaining backwards compatibility and a reasonable experience for those with hardware or bandwidth that can't support the latest-and-greatest - The protocol should support use creation and ownership of content, including a flexible scripting system, and the ability to transfer user-created content between servers. It should support collaborative editing and interaction with content. - The protocol is highly extensible through 3rd-party plugins and not locked-in to whatever the committee decided at standardization time was, for example, the best parameterized-avatar system/voice-chat system/streaming-video protocol/physics system/what-have-you. However, at the same time, there should be a robust baseline spec that allows all users to have a decent experience even with no plugins added. I definitely see VOS as having the potential to meet all these requirements and beyond. I can't really tell from the press release how far they are planning to go with flux worlds. My guess is it's going to be yet-another-shared-space-server, this time based on X3D and easily integrated with web pages. So it'll probably be really neat, but not the metaverse yet ;) -Ken - Original Message - From: Tony Parisi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'x3d-public list' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'www-vrml' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 2:08 PM Subject: [www-vrml] Flux Worlds Server Announcement Folks, We've been up to something over here - thought I would tell you about it before you heard it on the street. Media Machines has been developing a multi-user server based on a new protocol that we intend to put out into the open. We have dubbed it Simple Wide Area Multi-User Protocol, or SWMP (pronounced swamp). The intent is to work with Web3D and potentially other organizations to standardize SWMP. We will also supply a basic open source implementation. Our overriding goal-- one that we are pursuing with total passion and vigor-- is to create an open infrastructure for the Metaverse. We have wrapped SWMP into a server product called Flux Worlds. Flux Worlds is currently in alpha test. While the product is still several weeks away from beta test, we announced it yesterday with the goal of attracting early signups for the beta. We are also integrating a prototype of the new X3D networking nodes being developing by the Networking Working Group, right into Flux Player. The results look promising. Anyway, here is the announcement. We would love to have you be part of the beta when it's ready! http://www.mediamachines.com/press/pressrelease-03292007.php Remember, the Metaverse needs open protocols. Without them... everything else is Just a World. Yours virtually, Tony - Tony Parisi 415-902-8002 President/CEO [EMAIL PROTECTED] Media Machines, Inc.www.mediamachines.com Add 3D content to your web page with the Flux Player. Go to www.mediamachines.com to upload and share your 3D content. - ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement
We learned the really hard way in the early years of VRML to take it slow when trying to create something intended to scale out the Internet. I won't quarrel with your requirements but I also am very leary of anything that reeks of Snowcrash-like thinking or visions. We got burned because that sort of thinking leads to expectations that are not just impossible in the short term, they aren't achievable. VRML still gets hammered in books, blogs and other articles for overreaching and not hitting those marks despite the fact that as a standard, ten years later, the content still works with current tools and a lot of current content sill works with old tools. That is what a standard has to achieve. Don't overdrive your headlights. It's a deadly mistake. So I'm not criticizing, but take it to the bank that Parisi knows better than anyone what the cost of overreaching is. Your 'metaverse' is worth having, but he is good ways down the path of making his work now and he has been at the forefront of getting such standards built for over a decade now. He isn't 'now' realizing; he paid the price in blood before most of the rest of the current crowd was even trying. len -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Taylor Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 9:10 PM To: VOS Discussion Subject: Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement Remember, the Metaverse needs open protocols. Without them... everything else is Just a World. I agree with this, and I'm glad that more and more people are realizing it. However, though it's necessary, it's not sufficient to create the metaverse. Some other requirements I would use to evaluate any metaverse system: - Not only can anyone run a server, but they can easily interlink and users can freely traverse the spaces between different servers, with the potential for seamlessly connecting virtual spaces (eg, with portals). - The protocol is future-proof and can keep up with developments in technology and new ideas for interaction while maintaining backwards compatibility and a reasonable experience for those with hardware or bandwidth that can't support the latest-and-greatest - The protocol should support use creation and ownership of content, including a flexible scripting system, and the ability to transfer user-created content between servers. It should support collaborative editing and interaction with content. - The protocol is highly extensible through 3rd-party plugins and not locked-in to whatever the committee decided at standardization time was, for example, the best parameterized-avatar system/voice-chat system/streaming-video protocol/physics system/what-have-you. However, at the same time, there should be a robust baseline spec that allows all users to have a decent experience even with no plugins added. I definitely see VOS as having the potential to meet all these requirements and beyond. I can't really tell from the press release how far they are planning to go with flux worlds. My guess is it's going to be yet-another-shared-space-server, this time based on X3D and easily integrated with web pages. So it'll probably be really neat, but not the metaverse yet ;) -Ken - Original Message - From: Tony Parisi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'x3d-public list' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'www-vrml' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 2:08 PM Subject: [www-vrml] Flux Worlds Server Announcement Folks, We've been up to something over here - thought I would tell you about it before you heard it on the street. Media Machines has been developing a multi-user server based on a new protocol that we intend to put out into the open. We have dubbed it Simple Wide Area Multi-User Protocol, or SWMP (pronounced swamp). The intent is to work with Web3D and potentially other organizations to standardize SWMP. We will also supply a basic open source implementation. Our overriding goal-- one that we are pursuing with total passion and vigor-- is to create an open infrastructure for the Metaverse. We have wrapped SWMP into a server product called Flux Worlds. Flux Worlds is currently in alpha test. While the product is still several weeks away from beta test, we announced it yesterday with the goal of attracting early signups for the beta. We are also integrating a prototype of the new X3D networking nodes being developing by the Networking Working Group, right into Flux Player. The results look promising. Anyway, here is the announcement. We would love to have you be part of the beta when it's ready! http://www.mediamachines.com/press/pressrelease-03292007.php Remember, the Metaverse needs open protocols. Without them... everything else is Just a World. Yours virtually, Tony - Tony Parisi 415-902-8002 President/CEO [EMAIL PROTECTED] Media
Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement
Some good point Ken, and I think some should find their way into the NWWG requirements. I would add that the protocol should support the efficient implementation of a heartbeat. This sounds pretty specific but I think the abitily of a system to know that the server and clients are responding and how long it is taking them to respond is important. Single byte or word UDP payloads wrapped in a v small packet should suffice for this. I use a use case based on eve-online: think of a player who has invested hundreds of millions of isk (in-game currency) on a battleship and 1.5 years training/playing to get there. In a battle with NPC pirates the server lags badly. Madly typing at the keyboard produces no response and he cannot get his active armor or weapons online. Meanwhile the server the NPC pirates are destroying the ship with no status update at the client. The player gets s couple of updates: one showing his ship 3/4 destroyed - he tries warping out but the server does not respond in time. His next update is pieces of ex- battleship. Now in this scenario, if the heartbeat system is not in place then there no indication the ship was lost through player incompetence or because of a server side issue. Sure, the vendor may have stats on server load that would back a petition from the player for his ship back, but I think a heartbeat system would be valuable in this case. cheers, chris On 31/03/07, Ken Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Remember, the Metaverse needs open protocols. Without them... everything else is Just a World. I agree with this, and I'm glad that more and more people are realizing it. However, though it's necessary, it's not sufficient to create the metaverse. Some other requirements I would use to evaluate any metaverse system: - Not only can anyone run a server, but they can easily interlink and users can freely traverse the spaces between different servers, with the potential for seamlessly connecting virtual spaces (eg, with portals). - The protocol is future-proof and can keep up with developments in technology and new ideas for interaction while maintaining backwards compatibility and a reasonable experience for those with hardware or bandwidth that can't support the latest-and-greatest - The protocol should support use creation and ownership of content, including a flexible scripting system, and the ability to transfer user-created content between servers. It should support collaborative editing and interaction with content. - The protocol is highly extensible through 3rd-party plugins and not locked-in to whatever the committee decided at standardization time was, for example, the best parameterized-avatar system/voice-chat system/streaming-video protocol/physics system/what-have-you. However, at the same time, there should be a robust baseline spec that allows all users to have a decent experience even with no plugins added. I definitely see VOS as having the potential to meet all these requirements and beyond. I can't really tell from the press release how far they are planning to go with flux worlds. My guess is it's going to be yet-another-shared-space-server, this time based on X3D and easily integrated with web pages. So it'll probably be really neat, but not the metaverse yet ;) -Ken - Original Message - From: Tony Parisi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'x3d-public list' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'www-vrml' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 2:08 PM Subject: [www-vrml] Flux Worlds Server Announcement Folks, We've been up to something over here - thought I would tell you about it before you heard it on the street. Media Machines has been developing a multi-user server based on a new protocol that we intend to put out into the open. We have dubbed it Simple Wide Area Multi-User Protocol, or SWMP (pronounced swamp). The intent is to work with Web3D and potentially other organizations to standardize SWMP. We will also supply a basic open source implementation. Our overriding goal-- one that we are pursuing with total passion and vigor-- is to create an open infrastructure for the Metaverse. We have wrapped SWMP into a server product called Flux Worlds. Flux Worlds is currently in alpha test. While the product is still several weeks away from beta test, we announced it yesterday with the goal of attracting early signups for the beta. We are also integrating a prototype of the new X3D networking nodes being developing by the Networking Working Group, right into Flux Player. The results look promising. Anyway, here is the announcement. We would love to have you be part of the beta when it's ready! http://www.mediamachines.com/press/pressrelease-03292007.php Remember, the Metaverse needs open protocols. Without them... everything else is Just a World. Yours virtually, Tony - Tony Parisi 415-902-8002 President/CEO
Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement
Because when you don't hit the mark, it causes people to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Visions are ok, but lots of publicity and preannouncements without the goods takes on the rep of being snake-oil. It is a very bad strategy to get into a market with the aim of eliminating all competitors. It screws the customers over. Netscape made that mistake and they had their collective rears handed to them. To me, metaverse is just another word. It has no ownership and only as much meaning as there is running code to support it. It's like saying 'Heaven' and then setting up the dogma without the pragma. So no offense, but don't get possessive with a term. Offering up suggestions is cool. It is cooler to offer them with running code. He isn't exactly playing it safe. He has code, he spent the company money to get it ready for open source, and he has the access to the standards editors. Is it more of the same? We've had shared spaces but no standard for hooking those up without buying Blaxxun Community server or any of the various other products. All we've had is client standards. What Tony is talking about is a protocol that can be implemented anywhere, and possibly a reduction in costs for authors to have worlds that is ten percent of what it costs to host at LL. That is significant. Now don't get me wrong, I am not quarreling with the VOS vision or the work. I'm saying if he manages to get this done, it puts something on the street a lot of people need, so stepping back and saying that's not a true Metaverse is sour grapes. No one really knows what a metaverse is. You know what you want it to be and that is cool, but not authoritative or a reason to say he doesn't have one. We got in trouble by promising a science fantasy world that couldn't be built then if ever, and it turned people off to 3D on the web for ten years. If he gets shared spaces out there for ten percent of the cost of SL and does it with content standards that enable the content to move around among worlds without being hostage to POTS server farm market, that is an AMAZING and very revolutionary accomplishment. Give him cred, then get back to your vision and show the next new thing when it is ready to show. It's bad karma to climb up the backs of other swimmers trying to stay afloat in the same ocean. len -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Taylor Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 9:59 PM To: VOS Discussion Subject: Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement I think that a basic open-standard shared-space server based on X3D is an obvious and safe step -- Flux Worlds will probably be very successful at what it does. But in my view, it doesn't bring us any closer to the metaverse and I hate when people through that word around (ever since the Lindens started doing so). To me it really is just more of the same -- we've had shared space servers around almost as long as VRML itself, and we're not that much closer to a true interconnected 3d universe on the internet. Someone has to stop playing it safe for anything revolutionary to occur. But what's wrong with snowcrash-like thinking or visions anyway? ;) -Ken - Original Message - From: Len Bullard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'VOS Discussion' vos-d@interreality.org Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 7:47 PM Subject: Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement We learned the really hard way in the early years of VRML to take it slow when trying to create something intended to scale out the Internet. I won't quarrel with your requirements but I also am very leary of anything that reeks of Snowcrash-like thinking or visions. We got burned because that sort of thinking leads to expectations that are not just impossible in the short term, they aren't achievable. VRML still gets hammered in books, blogs and other articles for overreaching and not hitting those marks despite the fact that as a standard, ten years later, the content still works with current tools and a lot of current content sill works with old tools. That is what a standard has to achieve. Don't overdrive your headlights. It's a deadly mistake. So I'm not criticizing, but take it to the bank that Parisi knows better than anyone what the cost of overreaching is. Your 'metaverse' is worth having, but he is good ways down the path of making his work now and he has been at the forefront of getting such standards built for over a decade now. He isn't 'now' realizing; he paid the price in blood before most of the rest of the current crowd was even trying. len -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Taylor Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 9:10 PM To: VOS Discussion Subject: Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement Remember, the Metaverse needs open protocols. Without them... everything else is Just a World. I agree with this, and I'm glad that more and more
