WO at WWDC?
Hi, Which list members are at WWDC this year? I haven’t run into any of the regulars yet. Any plans for a meetup this week? Karl ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO at WWDC?
Hey Karl! There's an ever expanding group forming for tomorrow night however there's also a Tommy's run!! Quick food then awesome tequilla will be my plan!! ;-) M. Sent from my iPhone On 2010-06-08, at 13:06, Karl kgret...@mac.com wrote: Hi, Which list members are at WWDC this year? I haven’t run into any of the regulars yet. Any plans for a meetup this week? Karl ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mark.ritchie%40mac.com This email sent to mark.ritc...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO at WWDC?
Great! Starting at the WWDC bash and continuing at Tommys? Greasy food is essential before Tommys! Keep the list posted! Karl On 2010-06-08, at 1:33 PM, Mark Ritchie wrote: Hey Karl! There's an ever expanding group forming for tomorrow night however there's also a Tommy's run!! Quick food then awesome tequilla will be my plan!! ;-) M. Sent from my iPhone On 2010-06-08, at 13:06, Karl kgret...@mac.com wrote: Hi, Which list members are at WWDC this year? I haven’t run into any of the regulars yet. Any plans for a meetup this week? Karl ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mark.ritchie%40mac.com This email sent to mark.ritc...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO at WWDC?
On 2010-06-08, at 1:37 PM, Karl wrote: Great! Starting at the WWDC bash and continuing at Tommys? Greasy food is essential before Tommys! Hey Karl, the bash is on Thursday. We'll be meeting for dinner tomorrow (Wednesday) that's not saying there won't be a Tommy's run after that too, but... Anyone who is here but didn't respond to my last query to the list about WWDC attendees please let us know so that you can get details as they develop. Keep the list posted! Karl On 2010-06-08, at 1:33 PM, Mark Ritchie wrote: Hey Karl! There's an ever expanding group forming for tomorrow night however there's also a Tommy's run!! Quick food then awesome tequilla will be my plan!! ;-) M. Sent from my iPhone On 2010-06-08, at 13:06, Karl kgret...@mac.com wrote: Hi, Which list members are at WWDC this year? I haven’t run into any of the regulars yet. Any plans for a meetup this week? Karl ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mark.ritchie%40mac.com This email sent to mark.ritc...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/dleber_wodev%40codeferous.com This email sent to dleber_wo...@codeferous.com ;david -- David LeBer Codeferous Software 'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing' site: http://codeferous.com blog: http://davidleber.net profile:http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber twitter:http://twitter.com/rebeld -- Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group: http://tacow.org ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO at WWDC?
I would just like to offer my heartfelt YOU ALL SUCK best-wishes. Dave On Jun 8, 2010, at 4:50 PM, David LeBer wrote: On 2010-06-08, at 1:37 PM, Karl wrote: Great! Starting at the WWDC bash and continuing at Tommys? Greasy food is essential before Tommys! Hey Karl, the bash is on Thursday. We'll be meeting for dinner tomorrow (Wednesday) that's not saying there won't be a Tommy's run after that too, but... Anyone who is here but didn't respond to my last query to the list about WWDC attendees please let us know so that you can get details as they develop. Keep the list posted! Karl On 2010-06-08, at 1:33 PM, Mark Ritchie wrote: Hey Karl! There's an ever expanding group forming for tomorrow night however there's also a Tommy's run!! Quick food then awesome tequilla will be my plan!! ;-) M. Sent from my iPhone On 2010-06-08, at 13:06, Karl kgret...@mac.com wrote: Hi, Which list members are at WWDC this year? I haven’t run into any of the regulars yet. Any plans for a meetup this week? Karl ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mark.ritchie%40mac.com This email sent to mark.ritc...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/dleber_wodev%40codeferous.com This email sent to dleber_wo...@codeferous.com ;david -- David LeBer Codeferous Software 'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing' site: http://codeferous.com blog: http://davidleber.net profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber twitter: http://twitter.com/rebeld -- Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group: http://tacow.org ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/webobjects%40avendasora.com This email sent to webobje...@avendasora.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO at WWDC?
Should I take that as a confirmation that you are NOT at WWDC this year? Karl On 2010-06-08, at 2:14 PM, David Avendasora wrote: I would just like to offer my heartfelt YOU ALL SUCK best-wishes. Dave On Jun 8, 2010, at 4:50 PM, David LeBer wrote: On 2010-06-08, at 1:37 PM, Karl wrote: Great! Starting at the WWDC bash and continuing at Tommys? Greasy food is essential before Tommys! Hey Karl, the bash is on Thursday. We'll be meeting for dinner tomorrow (Wednesday) that's not saying there won't be a Tommy's run after that too, but... Anyone who is here but didn't respond to my last query to the list about WWDC attendees please let us know so that you can get details as they develop. Keep the list posted! Karl On 2010-06-08, at 1:33 PM, Mark Ritchie wrote: Hey Karl! There's an ever expanding group forming for tomorrow night however there's also a Tommy's run!! Quick food then awesome tequilla will be my plan!! ;-) M. Sent from my iPhone On 2010-06-08, at 13:06, Karl kgret...@mac.com wrote: Hi, Which list members are at WWDC this year? I haven’t run into any of the regulars yet. Any plans for a meetup this week? Karl ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mark.ritchie%40mac.com This email sent to mark.ritc...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/dleber_wodev%40codeferous.com This email sent to dleber_wo...@codeferous.com ;david -- David LeBer Codeferous Software 'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing' site:http://codeferous.com blog:http://davidleber.net profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber twitter: http://twitter.com/rebeld -- Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group: http://tacow.org ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/webobjects%40avendasora.com This email sent to webobje...@avendasora.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO at WWDC?
On 8-Jun-10, at 2:14 PM, David Avendasora wrote: I would just like to offer my heartfelt YOU ALL SUCK best-wishes. +1 A minor consolation is that at least the David's are somewhat represented. :-) Dave On Jun 8, 2010, at 4:50 PM, David LeBer wrote: On 2010-06-08, at 1:37 PM, Karl wrote: Great! Starting at the WWDC bash and continuing at Tommys? Greasy food is essential before Tommys! Hey Karl, the bash is on Thursday. We'll be meeting for dinner tomorrow (Wednesday) that's not saying there won't be a Tommy's run after that too, but... Anyone who is here but didn't respond to my last query to the list about WWDC attendees please let us know so that you can get details as they develop. Keep the list posted! Karl On 2010-06-08, at 1:33 PM, Mark Ritchie wrote: Hey Karl! There's an ever expanding group forming for tomorrow night however there's also a Tommy's run!! Quick food then awesome tequilla will be my plan!! ;-) M. Sent from my iPhone On 2010-06-08, at 13:06, Karl kgret...@mac.com wrote: Hi, Which list members are at WWDC this year? I haven’t run into any of the regulars yet. Any plans for a meetup this week? Karl ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ mark.ritchie%40mac.com This email sent to mark.ritc...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/dleber_wodev %40codeferous.com This email sent to dleber_wo...@codeferous.com ;david -- David LeBer Codeferous Software 'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing' site: http://codeferous.com blog: http://davidleber.net profile:http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber twitter:http://twitter.com/rebeld -- Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group: http://tacow.org ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/webobjects% 40avendasora.com This email sent to webobje...@avendasora.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/programmingosx %40mac.com This email sent to programming...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO at WWDC?
On Jun 8, 2010, at 2:34 PM, David Holt wrote: On 8-Jun-10, at 2:14 PM, David Avendasora wrote: I would just like to offer my heartfelt YOU ALL SUCK best-wishes. +1 A minor consolation is that at least the David's are somewhat represented. :-) I should expect so! On the bright side for those of us not there, WE won't be hung over after Tommys! Chuck On Jun 8, 2010, at 4:50 PM, David LeBer wrote: On 2010-06-08, at 1:37 PM, Karl wrote: Great! Starting at the WWDC bash and continuing at Tommys? Greasy food is essential before Tommys! Hey Karl, the bash is on Thursday. We'll be meeting for dinner tomorrow (Wednesday) that's not saying there won't be a Tommy's run after that too, but... Anyone who is here but didn't respond to my last query to the list about WWDC attendees please let us know so that you can get details as they develop. Keep the list posted! Karl On 2010-06-08, at 1:33 PM, Mark Ritchie wrote: Hey Karl! There's an ever expanding group forming for tomorrow night however there's also a Tommy's run!! Quick food then awesome tequilla will be my plan!! ;-) M. Sent from my iPhone On 2010-06-08, at 13:06, Karl kgret...@mac.com wrote: Hi, Which list members are at WWDC this year? I haven’t run into any of the regulars yet. Any plans for a meetup this week? Karl ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mark.ritchie%40mac.com This email sent to mark.ritc...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/dleber_wodev%40codeferous.com This email sent to dleber_wo...@codeferous.com ;david -- David LeBer Codeferous Software 'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing' site: http://codeferous.com blog: http://davidleber.net profile:http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber twitter:http://twitter.com/rebeld -- Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group: http://tacow.org ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/webobjects%40avendasora.com This email sent to webobje...@avendasora.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/programmingosx%40mac.com This email sent to programming...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO at WWDC?
On Jun 8, 2010, at 5:40 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I would just like to offer my heartfelt YOU ALL SUCK best-wishes. A minor consolation is that at least the David's are somewhat represented. I should expect so! On the bright side for those of us not there, WE won't be hung over after Tommys! On the dark side some of us, fueled by WWDC withdrawal, will be hung over from tequila at much less reputable establishments. :) tb ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO at WWDC?
On Jun 8, 2010, at 5:57 PM, Travis Britt wrote: On Jun 8, 2010, at 5:40 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I would just like to offer my heartfelt YOU ALL SUCK best-wishes. A minor consolation is that at least the David's are somewhat represented. I should expect so! On the bright side for those of us not there, WE won't be hung over after Tommys! On the dark side some of us, fueled by WWDC withdrawal, will be hung over from tequila at much less reputable establishments. :) Party at Travis' House! Dave ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO at WWDC?
On Jun 8, 2010, at 2:57 PM, Travis Britt wrote: On Jun 8, 2010, at 5:40 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I would just like to offer my heartfelt YOU ALL SUCK best-wishes. A minor consolation is that at least the David's are somewhat represented. I should expect so! On the bright side for those of us not there, WE won't be hung over after Tommys! On the dark side some of us, fueled by WWDC withdrawal, will be hung over from tequila at much less reputable establishments. :) Now THAT sounds painful! At least Tommy has quality tequila. -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO at WWDC?
On 8/Jun/2010, at 3:25 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On the dark side some of us, fueled by WWDC withdrawal, will be hung over from tequila at much less reputable establishments. :) Now THAT sounds painful! At least Tommy has quality tequila. K, got the plan: Start with food, warm up at Tommy's and finish at a less reputable establishment! ;-) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO at WWDC?
On Jun 8, 2010, at 3:28 PM, Mark Ritchie wrote: On 8/Jun/2010, at 3:25 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On the dark side some of us, fueled by WWDC withdrawal, will be hung over from tequila at much less reputable establishments. :) Now THAT sounds painful! At least Tommy has quality tequila. K, got the plan: Start with food, warm up at Tommy's and finish at a less reputable establishment! ;-) After the lot of you finish off Tommy's it WILL be a less reputable establishment! :-) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO at WWDC?
On 8/Jun/2010, at 3:31 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: After the lot of you finish off Tommy's it WILL be a less reputable establishment! :-) Now you sound envious... There's still lots of time to hop a plane and get down here! ;-) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO at WWDC?
On Jun 8, 2010, at 3:36 PM, Mark Ritchie wrote: On 8/Jun/2010, at 3:31 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: After the lot of you finish off Tommy's it WILL be a less reputable establishment! :-) Now you sound envious... There's still lots of time to hop a plane and get down here! ;-) Have no doubt - I AM envious. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO at WWDC?
Should we all donate some Aeroplan points to the Chuck Hill Envy Fund to help him make it here? ;-) Karl On 2010-06-08, at 3:58 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Jun 8, 2010, at 3:36 PM, Mark Ritchie wrote: On 8/Jun/2010, at 3:31 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: After the lot of you finish off Tommy's it WILL be a less reputable establishment! :-) Now you sound envious... There's still lots of time to hop a plane and get down here! ;-) Have no doubt - I AM envious. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kgretton%40mac.com This email sent to kgret...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO at WWDC?
CHEF-AID? On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Karl kgret...@mac.com wrote: Should we all donate some Aeroplan points to the Chuck Hill Envy Fund to help him make it here? ;-) Karl On 2010-06-08, at 3:58 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Jun 8, 2010, at 3:36 PM, Mark Ritchie wrote: On 8/Jun/2010, at 3:31 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: After the lot of you finish off Tommy's it WILL be a less reputable establishment! :-) Now you sound envious... There's still lots of time to hop a plane and get down here! ;-) Have no doubt - I AM envious. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kgretton%40mac.com This email sent to kgret...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jmlittle%40gmail.com This email sent to jmlit...@gmail.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On Aug 26, 2006, at 11:19 AM, Miguel Arroz wrote: So, is it possible that in some future (near future), all Apple official documentation will be updated to WOLips? I don't think so. Apple *may* point you to WOLips, but it's not their responsibility to write documentation for 3rd party products. It's up to the WOLips authors to write that kind of documentation. I can't agree with this. If the only tools to use the WO framework are 3rd party (not yet the case, I know, but David's point is valid), then Apple had better provide some documentation using those tools, otherwise new users are going to be frustrated by having one source for the framework and one source for the tools. I know all the experienced users will have no problem with and will love the 3rd party tools, but as a new developer it is very frustrating to try to not only learn a new framework, but then to have to interpret on-the-fly how to implement the tutorial using entirely different tools. You don't know if there is something wrong with your code, or your tool configuration. To me one of the major initial attractions for new users of WO ***IS*** the Apple-provided tools and documentation. They make things seem so much simpler, you can have a fully functional proof-of- concept application without writing ANY code - just follow the D2JC or D2W wizards then tweak using the assistant. Sure once you start getting beyond the basics you quickly realize the bugs and limitations of the tools, but by then you are invested in the technology and you realize that the true power of WO is not the tools but the frameworks. If Apple doesn't provide their own tools in the future (once the existing ones quit working) or documentation for working with 3rd- party ones the barrier for even considering WO will be much higher. As many here have rightly pointed out regarding the WO community, we need less of somebody needs to do X and more Here's a solution for X. So here's my commitment: Once I can get my issue with D2JC figured out (see awakeFromInsertion thread), I will begin re- implementing the exercises from WO Desktop Applications examples using WOlips and put them on the Wiki. Dave ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
Hi! Thank you for your support, I have always thought specific Java clients can be solution for local networks. It is very sad to see lack of support for it, especially since it seems an excellent products. However, Apple seems to be quite annoying about WO. Your experience makes me wondering about where WO is heading. Again. It is totally possible to develop local networks solutions using web browsers, and it seems the world is accepting them better these days. I do not know if Apple wants to focus completely on it. They should make an statement. I still think that D2JC has to be supported, as well as documentation updated. It is very important to keep options if Apple wants to take inroads into enterprise markets, and I think Apple wants. Only support for web pages may not suit all enterprise markets and web hosting of Java based apps is more expensive, so WO is in disadvantage. I am just learning WO. I have found excellent things, but I have also find terrible shortcomings, especially documentation and the sensation people do not know what Apple is up to. I hope forward to help the community as best as I can. Thank you, David On Aug 28, 2006, at 9:29 AM, David Avendasora wrote: Hi David, Welcome to the bastard child of WO. Java Client. Here's what I've found so far: Java Client is REALLY cool. Especially the Direct to Java Client starting point. I'm in the middle of building a D2JC project and while there are some short-comings, I have actually deployed a 1.0 version of my application without writing a single line of Java. No custom classes. With that said, it simply does CRUD functions, but it has allowed me to refine my data and object models substantially with little additional work. I can simply add a table to the DB, add it to the EOModel and redeploy and the new interface for that table is built automatically. All I have to do is tweak the app using the Assistant and it's done. The big problem is that nobody else uses it. You ask a question regarding client-side classes and you either get no response or somebody tells you to move your code to the server-side class, even when you are simply setting a default or other View-type code. If you are building a web application then there is lots of people out there willing to help, and usually it is VERY responsive. Not so with Java Client development. The Apple documentation hasn't been updated, half the examples don't even work. I'm new to Java as well as WO so I don't know if it is me or WO that is at fault, and no one else seems to be able to tell me either. I've been stumbling around for almost a year on- and-off on D2JC and I have learned a LOT about EOModeler', RuleEditor's and Assistant's short-comings and bugs most of which can be pretty easily worked around, but I had no one there to fill me in on the problems to start with. If I can't make it past my current issue (simply setting a default value for a attribute on the client) then I'm going to throw away D2JC and move to either D2W or simply a web application. I'll still use WO as the foundation, but a total lack of support of Java Client is just too hard to work under for a newbie as myself. I'd be happy to help in anyway I can if you have questions on Java Client. There's very few of us out there using it. On Aug 26, 2006, at 12:33 PM, David Sanchez wrote: Where? All the docs I have read are updated to 5.3.something, and has screenshots of the current tools. Well, I am reading WODesktopApps.pdf (WebObjects Desktop Client Programming Guide, 304 pages). It says revisited 2005-08-11 (Which is not long ago, about a year). And they talk about Project Builder. Never mention XCode. I download it from here: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/DeveloperTools/WebObjects- date.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP3440-TP3436-TP3592 ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On Aug 28, 2006, at 9:47 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Aug 26, 2006, at 11:19 AM, Miguel Arroz wrote: So, is it possible that in some future (near future), all Apple official documentation will be updated to WOLips? I don't think so. Apple *may* point you to WOLips, but it's not their responsibility to write documentation for 3rd party products. It's up to the WOLips authors to write that kind of documentation. I can't agree with this. If the only tools to use the WO framework are 3rd party (not yet the case, I know, but David's point is valid), then Apple had better provide some documentation using those tools, otherwise new users are going to be frustrated by having one source for the framework and one source for the tools. I know all the experienced users will have no problem with and will love the 3rd party tools, but as a new developer it is very frustrating to try to not only learn a new framework, but then to have to interpret on-the-fly how to implement the tutorial using entirely different tools. You don't know if there is something wrong with your code, or your tool configuration. To me one of the major initial attractions for new users of WO ***IS*** the Apple-provided tools and documentation. They make things seem so much simpler, you can have a fully functional proof-of- concept application without writing ANY code - just follow the D2JC or D2W wizards then tweak using the assistant. Sure once you start getting beyond the basics you quickly realize the bugs and limitations of the tools, but by then you are invested in the technology and you realize that the true power of WO is not the tools but the frameworks. If Apple doesn't provide their own tools in the future (once the existing ones quit working) or documentation for working with 3rd- party ones the barrier for even considering WO will be much higher. As many here have rightly pointed out regarding the WO community, we need less of somebody needs to do X and more Here's a solution for X. So here's my commitment: Once I can get my issue with D2JC figured out (see awakeFromInsertion thread), I will begin re- implementing the exercises from WO Desktop Applications examples using WOlips and put them on the Wiki. Hello! That would be REALLY excellent for new comers. I do not see how to make D2JC, or WO JC using WOLips. David Sanchez ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
Thank you, Finding out that would have been almost impossible by myself. David Sanchez On Aug 28, 2006, at 9:35 AM, David Avendasora wrote: David, Look in this file /System/Library/Frameworks/ JavaWebObjects.framework/Resources/License.key Cliff from Apple (he shows up on the list occasionally) pointed this out as a location of a Deployment key that can be used. I'm currently using it to deploy to a Servlet Single Directory Deployment (SSDD) and then running my application on Tomcat on Windows. Dave On Aug 26, 2006, at 12:33 PM, David Sanchez wrote: Very interesting. But I thought that you needed a deployment license to export the .woa. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
I am in FULL agreement with David Avendasora's post, which I pruned from here. On 28 Aug 2006, at 14:59, Miguel Arroz wrote: But think on all the other solutions out there. J2EE has tools? As far as I know, no. Everyone uses third-party Java IDEs. Ruby on Rails has tools? Everyone uses TextMate or so. If apple pointed WOLips as the official tools for WO, it would still be better than with all those other tools - and those tools have success. Interesting point. However, J2EE is a godawful mess, and was so from the start; it is an examplar of what to avoid. Rails is designed around the principle of no configuration, or programming by convention, and so TextMate is the ideal IDE for it. WO config files, eomodels and wods, are complex, and a decent GUI app is essential. These would therefore have to be part of the officially supported corpus (except that Apple are deprecating everything, and have said that they won't officially support anything else). Send Apple feedback with your concerns, so they may know what the community feels. Nah, Apple can read their own lists, just like everyone else. Paul ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On 28 Aug 2006, at 14:56, David Sanchez wrote: I am just learning WO. I have found excellent things, but I have also find terrible shortcomings, I can't think of any (shortcomings) at all, apart from the two that you mention: especially documentation and the sensation people do not know what Apple is up to. Paul ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
I think there is close to zero (very close to zero ;-) chance that Apple will rewrite any of the WebObjects documentation to include the open source community tools. I think there is almost zero (somewhat near zero ;-) chance that Apple will write any more general documentation for WebObjects (besides the API docs generated by JavaDoc). I don't think Apple is going to exert any effort to develop new WebObjects developers, but obviously won't mind if the community does. Of course, Apple may do otherwise but if they don't then I think this is a clear message about how Apple values WebObjects and sees its future. Cheers, Ashley. -- Ashley Aitken Perth, Western Australia mrhatken at mac dot com Skype Name: MrHatken (GMT + 8 Hours!) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On 8/28/06, Ashley Aitken [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think there is close to zero (very close to zero ;-) chance that Apple will rewrite any of the WebObjects documentation to include the open source community tools. I think there is almost zero (somewhat near zero ;-) chance that Apple will write any more general documentation for WebObjects (besides the API docs generated by JavaDoc). I don't think Apple is going to exert any effort to develop new WebObjects developers, but obviously won't mind if the community does. Of course, Apple may do otherwise but if they don't then I think this is a clear message about how Apple values WebObjects and sees its future. I'll weigh in here and say that I pointedly asked this question of documentation of the other tools (WOLips/Eclipse/EntityModeler) and if the documentation writer at Apple would still be involved in this transition. It was made clear to me that it would need to be a community based effort, not an Apple one. Since the answer was concerning what the community needs to do, I feel this was meant to be disclosed. Cheers, Ashley. -- Ashley Aitken Perth, Western Australia mrhatken at mac dot com Skype Name: MrHatken (GMT + 8 Hours!) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jmlittle%40gmail.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
Joe is correct. However, I don't think it's the case that Apple does not intend to write any more WO documentation at all; there was at least one WO tech writer at the feedback session and she talked to someone who mentioned a documentation problem. I can't remember what it was, so I couldn't disclose it if I wanted to. :) I didn't get any impression at all that they were not planning to keep writing docs for the code they provide. janine On Aug 28, 2006, at 10:00 AM, Joe Little wrote: On 8/28/06, Ashley Aitken [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think there is close to zero (very close to zero ;-) chance that Apple will rewrite any of the WebObjects documentation to include the open source community tools. I think there is almost zero (somewhat near zero ;-) chance that Apple will write any more general documentation for WebObjects (besides the API docs generated by JavaDoc). I don't think Apple is going to exert any effort to develop new WebObjects developers, but obviously won't mind if the community does. Of course, Apple may do otherwise but if they don't then I think this is a clear message about how Apple values WebObjects and sees its future. I'll weigh in here and say that I pointedly asked this question of documentation of the other tools (WOLips/Eclipse/EntityModeler) and if the documentation writer at Apple would still be involved in this transition. It was made clear to me that it would need to be a community based effort, not an Apple one. Since the answer was concerning what the community needs to do, I feel this was meant to be disclosed. Cheers, Ashley. -- Ashley Aitken Perth, Western Australia mrhatken at mac dot com Skype Name: MrHatken (GMT + 8 Hours!) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jmlittle% 40gmail.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/womail%40mac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
Hello! I think you are forgetting .NET which has wonderful tools and it is tightly integrated with SQL Server and Windows 2000. WO+Tiger can compete against .NET+Windows 2000, it is cheaper, faster, easier and more elegant. But the tools in .NET are completely integrated, very fast and relatively mature. WO cannot compete directly against every open source technology invented, but it can compete against .NET. .NET requires a Windows 2000 server to deploy, WO a Tiger Server. I can see business there. David On Aug 28, 2006, at 12:54 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am in FULL agreement with David Avendasora's post, which I pruned from here. On 28 Aug 2006, at 14:59, Miguel Arroz wrote: But think on all the other solutions out there. J2EE has tools? As far as I know, no. Everyone uses third-party Java IDEs. Ruby on Rails has tools? Everyone uses TextMate or so. If apple pointed WOLips as the official tools for WO, it would still be better than with all those other tools - and those tools have success. Interesting point. However, J2EE is a godawful mess, and was so from the start; it is an examplar of what to avoid. Rails is designed around the principle of no configuration, or programming by convention, and so TextMate is the ideal IDE for it. WO config files, eomodels and wods, are complex, and a decent GUI app is essential. These would therefore have to be part of the officially supported corpus (except that Apple are deprecating everything, and have said that they won't officially support anything else). Send Apple feedback with your concerns, so they may know what the community feels. Nah, Apple can read their own lists, just like everyone else. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
Hallo! It is also well-known that Apple does not want to open source WO. But, if Apple does not plan to open WO, IT HAS to re-write documentation. It is almost impossible to get new developers interested in WO development without docs and tutorials up dated. And, things happens... Old programmers can die, jump to other platform or quit programming. So, if that's the case, Apple strategy for WO is just let it die. David Sanchez I think there is close to zero (very close to zero ;-) chance that Apple will rewrite any of the WebObjects documentation to include the open source community tools. I think there is almost zero (somewhat near zero ;-) chance that Apple will write any more general documentation for WebObjects (besides the API docs generated by JavaDoc). I don't think Apple is going to exert any effort to develop new WebObjects developers, but obviously won't mind if the community does. Of course, Apple may do otherwise but if they don't then I think this is a clear message about how Apple values WebObjects and sees its future. Cheers, Ashley. -- Ashley Aitken Perth, Western Australia mrhatken at mac dot com Skype Name: MrHatken (GMT + 8 Hours!) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On Aug 28, 2006, at 10:32 AM, David Sanchez wrote: Hallo! It is also well-known that Apple does not want to open source WO. But, if Apple does not plan to open WO, IT HAS to re-write documentation. No, it doesn't. Please stop making silly and illogical arguments. It is getting quite annoying. Apple is a company and does not have to do anything that it does not want to, provided that such inaction is legal. Not writing documentation is not illegal. Apple is not making money directly from WO as a product so it will do whatever makes business sense for it to do. It is almost impossible to get new developers interested in WO development without docs and tutorials up dated. Why do you think that Apple cares? Its only use for new WO developers is to staff its internal projects. If a developer can't pick it up from the documentation there is (and some being developed WOLips side), they probably will never be up to snuff for Apple's internal projects. And, things happens... Old programmers can die, jump to other platform or quit programming. So, if that's the case, Apple strategy for WO is just let it die. Define die. It has not been a money making product for quite some time (ever?). Chuck I think there is close to zero (very close to zero ;-) chance that Apple will rewrite any of the WebObjects documentation to include the open source community tools. I think there is almost zero (somewhat near zero ;-) chance that Apple will write any more general documentation for WebObjects (besides the API docs generated by JavaDoc). I don't think Apple is going to exert any effort to develop new WebObjects developers, but obviously won't mind if the community does. Of course, Apple may do otherwise but if they don't then I think this is a clear message about how Apple values WebObjects and sees its future. Cheers, Ashley. -- Ashley Aitken Perth, Western Australia mrhatken at mac dot com Skype Name: MrHatken (GMT + 8 Hours!) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill% 40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems.http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On Aug 26, 2006, at 2:38 PM, Art Isbell wrote: On Aug 26, 2006, at 6:09 AM, David Sanchez wrote: I hope, XCode will be used to develop WO in the future. I do not know how because Cocoa-bridge is deprecated. Xcode doesn't currently use the Java-ObjC bridge to build WO projects; it just invokes jam to build WO projects using javac or jikes. On Aug 24, 2006, at 12:37 PM, Daryl Lee wrote: Apple's strategy is to make WebObjects the best server-side runtime environment we can by: - Making WO work well with ANT and the most popular IDEs, including Xcode and Eclipse So instead of invoking jam, Xcode 3 will apparently invoke ant to build WO projects. This then offers the promise of the same ant WO projects being able to be managed by Xcode, Eclipse, and other Java IDE's that use ant. I will slightly disagree with this. I think a more correct statement is, This then offers the possibility of Xcode building the WO projects managed by Eclipse, and other Java IDE's that use ant. It is the WOProject Ant tasks, rather than Ant itself, that manages the build. And those tasks rely on certain resources that Xcode does not produce or maintain (i.e. the .classpath, the includes/excludes in the .wolips directory. Xcode has a much different view of managing the resources in a project. So adding a file or a component or a framework in Xcode is not going to update the files that WOProject relies on. If Xcode plugins are a possibility, this could be done. I have a couple of projects that build in Eclipse, from Ant at the command-line, and from Xcode. Managing what is in these projects is a stumbling block. Often, then can be added in Xcode and Eclipse will see them on the file system and do the right thing. However, a certain amount of work needs to be repeated in each IDE. I don't see that changing. So it doesn't appear that the Java-ObjC bridge deprecation will prevent Xcode from managing future WO projects. Agreed, the bridge is not going to be the problem. Chuck -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems.http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On Aug 28, 2006, at 1:40 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Aug 28, 2006, at 10:32 AM, David Sanchez wrote: Hallo! It is also well-known that Apple does not want to open source WO. But, if Apple does not plan to open WO, IT HAS to re-write documentation. No, it doesn't. Please stop making silly and illogical arguments. It is getting quite annoying. My excuses, I did not want to annoy. But, I assume, that if Apple wanted to make WO open source, they could. Apple has the resources and the lawyers. If Sun could partially open source Solaris (for any reason), I cannot believe Apple is tied hands. What's so silly in it? Apple is a company and does not have to do anything that it does not want to, provided that such inaction is legal. Not writing documentation is not illegal. Apple is not making money directly from WO as a product so it will do whatever makes business sense for it to do. Of course. Apple can do whatever they want. But it seems they want to give WO a boost. Maybe I am wrong. But that is what some people in the list have though of. And I am one of them. It is almost impossible to get new developers interested in WO development without docs and tutorials up dated. Why do you think that Apple cares? Its only use for new WO developers is to staff its internal projects. If a developer can't pick it up from the documentation there is (and some being developed WOLips side), they probably will never be up to snuff for Apple's internal projects. I really believe, better WO, could help Apple to drive server sales. Providing a complete and integrated solution. Very Apple-like, Apple hardware, running Apple OS, running Apple frameworks (WO). No other company can provide that, except maybe Sun. Apple has all the technology and components, why wouldn't? And, things happens... Old programmers can die, jump to other platform or quit programming. So, if that's the case, Apple strategy for WO is just let it die. Define die. It has not been a money making product for quite some time (ever?). I should have not use the term die, may be drift away (Everyone forgetting about it, like a nice memory). David Sanchez ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On Aug 28, 2006, at 3:45 PM, David Sanchez wrote:But, I assume, that if Apple wanted to make WO open source, they could. Apple has the resources and the lawyers. If Sun could partially open source Solaris (for any reason), I cannot believe Apple is tied hands. What's so silly in it? A few reasons I can think of:1) WO and EOF are part of numerous valuable intellectual property patents that Apple does not want to lose/expose2) It requires a HUGE amount of effort to properly open source something, resources I'm sure they'd rather not spend3) Hackers would have more of an opportunity to find holes in WO security and therefore, the iTunes Music Store and the Apple Store ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
At 3:45 PM -0400 8/28/06, David Sanchez wrote: But, I assume, that if Apple wanted to make WO open source, they could. ... I chime in here with a request that people stop talking about open sourcing WebObjects on the developers list. Apple has made their statement, it's a little vague, but it's all we're going to get. It's time to go back to work. PS: WebObjects-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] is a very nice mailing list and it doesn't get nearly enough traffic ! ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On 28 Aug 2006, at 18:29, David Sanchez wrote: I think you are forgetting .NET which has wonderful tools and it is tightly integrated with SQL Server and Windows 2000. The latter is a good reason not to use it. And yet, I am being biased and bigoted, as is my right; I get to choose what I deploy with. But the tools in .NET are completely integrated, very fast and relatively mature. What this tells us is that tools alone are not enough to make a good product, you need a degree of adequateness, of being good enough, in all major areas. .NET requires a Windows 2000 server to deploy, WO a Tiger Server. I can see business there. WO doesn't require Tiger Server, or even Tiger, to deploy. You can deploy anywhere, it is just Tiger that is the supported environment. Other platforms are perfectly good choices for deployment - even Windows :-). Paul ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On Aug 28, 2006, at 5:05 PM, Paul Lynch wrote: On 28 Aug 2006, at 18:29, David Sanchez wrote: I think you are forgetting .NET which has wonderful tools and it is tightly integrated with SQL Server and Windows 2000. The latter is a good reason not to use it. And yet, I am being biased and bigoted, as is my right; I get to choose what I deploy with. I agree with you. But, what I was talking about was the positive product integration. But the tools in .NET are completely integrated, very fast and relatively mature. What this tells us is that tools alone are not enough to make a good product, you need a degree of adequateness, of being good enough, in all major areas. Of course not. But the main reason I can think of why .NET is more popular than WO is because of those developer tools (And Microsoft business aggressiveness). Imagine a WO with great developers tools and documentation (From Apple or whomever). .NET requires a Windows 2000 server to deploy, WO a Tiger Server. I can see business there. WO doesn't require Tiger Server, or even Tiger, to deploy. You can deploy anywhere, it is just Tiger that is the supported environment. Other platforms are perfectly good choices for deployment - even Windows :-). Yes I know now. But Apple promotes WO, like if it needs a Tiger server to deploy. Even if you do not use the server, the license is only included with the server package. Or, at least, that's what I understand from the promotional page of WO 5.3. I was really confused about it. David Sanchez ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On 29/08/2006, at 12:25 AM, Paul Lynch wrote: I am in FULL agreement with David Avendasora's post, which I pruned from here. On 28 Aug 2006, at 14:59, Miguel Arroz wrote: But think on all the other solutions out there. J2EE has tools? As far as I know, no. Everyone uses third-party Java IDEs. Ruby on Rails has tools? Everyone uses TextMate or so. If apple pointed WOLips as the official tools for WO, it would still be better than with all those other tools - and those tools have success. Interesting point. However, J2EE is a godawful mess, and was so from the start; it is an examplar of what to avoid. So, that's the problem with J2EE. Everytime I start reading up about it, I don't seem to get anywhere. And there are so many jobs around for J2EE consultants for a lot more money than I get as an Apple/WO person. Looking at it again recently, I get the feeling between SE, ME, and EE that this must have been some marketing persons way of breaking things down, rather than start with the core and add the libraries you need. Rails is designed around the principle of no configuration, or programming by convention, and so TextMate is the ideal IDE for it. Someone mentioned Rails used sensible defaults. Sounds good to me and very Apple. Microsoft of course adds as many options into things as possible, giving tech geeks who know enough to be dangerous the illusion it must be powerful. (OK I could whine about Unix commands as well.) I've never subscribed to the shoot-yourself-in-the-foot C paradigm or blow-your-leg-off C++ paradigm. WO config files, eomodels and wods, are complex, and a decent GUI app is essential. These would therefore have to be part of the officially supported corpus (except that Apple are deprecating everything, and have said that they won't officially support anything else). Send Apple feedback with your concerns, so they may know what the community feels. Nah, Apple can read their own lists, just like everyone else. Paul ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On 29/08/2006, at 7:18 AM, David Sanchez wrote: On Aug 28, 2006, at 5:05 PM, Paul Lynch wrote: But the tools in .NET are completely integrated, very fast and relatively mature. What this tells us is that tools alone are not enough to make a good product, you need a degree of adequateness, of being good enough, in all major areas. Of course not. But the main reason I can think of why .NET is more popular than WO is because of those developer tools (And Microsoft business aggressiveness). Imagine a WO with great developers tools and documentation (From Apple or whomever). I wish you were right my friend, but popularity (or at least widespread use) in this marketplace has little to do with technical excellence. I can't comment on .NET tools (although .NET is a little more open than Java, because you don't have to use C# or VB, because it is open to other technologies like Eiffel - didn't you wonder where MS got the Trusted Computing Platform phrase from?) Today's dominance dates back to the 1890s when a guy named Patterson found he could sell more of his inferior NCR cash registers by blackening the competitors to clients. TJ Watson of IBM was his early accomplice, and Patterson eventually went to gaol (or jail alright the penitentiary) for his activities. I can't remember if Watson did as well. This interesting history is in Richard DeLamater's Big Blue: IBM's Use and Abuse of Power. Anyway, today, there is no shortage of MS patsies going around saying Apple sucks, although I think most of the world is seeing through their message. Apple, I think is well aware that even if they made WO the most perfect, beautifully-integrated-with-tools platform that it would still be a hard sell against MS dominance in the world. Like managers did not used to get fired for installing IBM, they now don't get fired for using .NET, and even if they did, there's always the .NET site next door. Ian ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Fwd: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
Hello all I am new to WO and very concerned with his future as i did some investment of time and money to learn it. I also read the Apple statement Xcode 2.4 deprecation announcements and in it i read this : Apple's strategy is to make WebObjects the best server-side runtime environment we can by: - Improving performance, manageability, and standards compliance Better than today for me it's a positive point, surely it will be pure java at all levels (cf the cocoa-java bridge deprecation) - Making WO work well with ANT and the most popular IDEs, including Xcode and Eclipse so i want to think that developing WO App with Xcode (and/or Eclipse + ANT) will be even better than now - Opening and making public all standards and formats that WO depends upon to help the open source comnunity's work of doing new open source tools and by the way increase the visibility, perennity, legacy and Aura of WebObjects We view the WebObjects community as a partner in creating great development and client-side WebObjects tools, however we do not officially endorse any specific project and want to encourage variety within the community. We will work to assist the community where technical assistance or specifications are needed and have already been working with several open source projects. So Yes it's clear that Apple will give up the improvement of all its today WO developer tools, but as they say that they have already been working with several open source projects, i want to think that they will integrate some of them in Xcode, in order to still provide a complete solution. I think of the integration od EntityModeler for example in place of EOModeler… Wouldn't be great if we had better Java development in Xcode (coding and debugging side, after all that's the promise of Xcode 3) with integration of some open-source project ? The however we do not officially endorse any specific project make me think that way. However i still have 2 years to really get familiar to WO as it is, after this doing some transition will be less painful… Regards. GM ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
Seems like the rumor sites actually read this list. This article looks more accurate... http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1995 ...unless ThinkSecret really got the big scoop (?) Apparently, AppleInsider was also reading (and more than that :) the Wikipedia on WebObjects... ___ Despite being quickly adopted by large companies like Disney and Dell as part of their e-commerce strategy, however, WebObjects began to languish after Apple acquired NeXT the following year. ___ I remember some of these wordings discussed here recently...languish etc. Maybe be Wikipedia introduction section should be more positive sounding (as discussed compared to the Wikipedia Smalltalk or RoR entries). PS: I will leave an interested native speaker handle that. Marc ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On Aug 25, 2006, at 11:55 PM, Dustin Withers wrote: Hello! :) I think I got the worse time to learn WebObjects. All the tutorials in the Apple Web Site are referring to deprecated apps like EOModeler, and most of the books out there talk about them too. The tools are deprecated but you can still use them. The vast majority of information out there though still applies. Of course they do. But for how long? Besides, any time Apple can just stop them to work with no prior notice. Also, it means there is no bug fixing, no support and no updated documentation. I do not think Apple would convert iTunes Music Store and Apple website away from WebObjects. I do not know if there is any indication of it. I do not think Apple will also relay on WOLips to develop its WO solutions (iTMS+Apple Store). From what I know Apple's in house people use Eclipse (I maybe wrong but I don't think so) If that's the case, then the situation is worse than I thought. Not because Eclipse is a bad environment, but because Apple is not drinking its own Kool-Aid. Can someone tell me if WebObjects is dying? I think people who signed any NDA agreement can answer that question. Apple made a statement. They are only deprecating the tool chain in favor of open source alternatives. They are also opening all of their specifications to make it easier to code the open source alternatives. This could be a hit, if no other alternatives were present. But, one of the things I like is an integrated environment. If I take apart the Apple made tools (which are deprecated), old documentation (that won't be updated), a very small developing team (even though they might be geniuses, it is a lot of work for 4 people) and I need to use an open source plugin with Eclipse, forums and tutorials from third parties At the end, WebObject looks a lot like Cayenne/ Tapestry. And, I won't have to pay for the Tiger Server license to deploy. I mean, maybe WebObject is superior to Cayenne/Tapestry, I do not know WO that well yet, but I do not see where WO is going. I know Steve Jobs and Oracle's CEO has very good relationships and I would hate to see that after I learn WebObjects they announce it is dead. I don't think WO Is going anywhere. Learning any ORM is worth doing just to open your mind on how things work. I mean I could spend the time learning another technology. I've spent time learning RoR, TurboGears and WO. Everything is worth learning for one reason or another but WO doesn't look to be going anywhere. That's the problem. I love learning about technologies, but if WO is not going anywhere (not better, not worse), sooner or later, competitors are gonna get better tools than WO. About the thinksecret post I found something a little disturbing... Is it real the WebObjects team at Apple is as large as 4 people? I think that shows how powerful the framework is that it only requires a small amount of people to develop some very powerful apps. Four people is too small. Apple has about 10 thousand employees, and 10 percent of them must be programmers (about 1 thousand, maybe less). If Apple, can only dedicate 4 people to WO, it does not look like they believe in the technology. Also, in the RoR web page, they state RoR will be included in Leopard. Apple isn't releasing new tools they are just opening the specs up and deprecating the old tools. I think they are deprecating the only tools they provide. The other tools, which could be better I do not know, are made by other people. The only thing that can cross my mind is that they want to make WO an Objective-C solution again and drop Java. I do not know if that is even possible these days. The thing is, as long as I love educating myself on technologies, I do not want to get trapped again in Apple policies and dead technologies. I still remember QuickDrawGX, just to name one technology that Apple developed, was ahead of the others, and then killed in favor of an open alternative (OpenGL). Not to mention things like Hypercard/Hypertalk or even AppleWorks (who is slowly dying). I am not fill with pessimism, but I need a reason to believe. David ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
Thank you for your quick response.Looking into J2EE, Cayenne/Tapestry can compete with WO?Ruby on Rails can create client/server apps that do not use a browser, like WO?I do not understand why you believe open source WO can make it better.Open source could be nice, but it is not faster than an enterprise (with money) to develop and back up a project.Spare time from programmers in the world cannot beat an army of developers.And, WO for Objective-C wouldn't be better for WO. It would be faster, well integrated with Core Data and with mature XCode tools?David David, We all love WebObjects because it is a terrific development environment, one that you appreciate all the more when you try the alternatives. But all it takes is a dice search to understand that j2ee and .Net dominate (like thousands of jobs vs 10 jobs). Apple is deep in WebObjects because of the infrastructure it has built using it, but has no business interest in it any more. At one time when WebObjects was THE web development tool they might have used it as a wedge to sell other Apple products (since it came in through the IT Dept. front door instead of the Graphics Dept. back door), but that's when it sold for $25,000. The opportunity has passed. I believe that as late as today WebObjects might find a life if it was open-sourced. I base this on the amazing proliferation of j2ee and other frameworks, which go to show that the problem is not solved. It's wild how much more work it is to do a site in struts than WebObjects, for example. But apparently Apple either has a positive reason not to do this (say legal reasons) or a negative reason (like there's nothing in it for them), so it appears unlikely to occur. WebObjects won't go away soon, but simply cannot be a growth area under the present circumstances, no matter what features they add. Wonderful tool, bad prospects. Better to look at Ruby on Rails if you're a technology lover or j2ee if you're a practical guy. Jim On Aug 25, 2006, at 9:26 PM, David Sanchez wrote: Hi! I am new to WebObjects and new in the list. I decide to learn WebObjects to get a wider understanding of technologies MVC. The other MVC I know of is Oracle ADC trough JDeveloper, but due to recent changes in licensing policies it has become too expensive for small business solutions (5000 dollars and up just for ADC). I think I got the worse time to learn WebObjects. All the tutorials in the Apple Web Site are referring to deprecated apps like EOModeler, and most of the books out there talk about them too. I do not think Apple would convert iTunes Music Store and Apple website away from WebObjects. I do not know if there is any indication of it. I do not think Apple will also relay on WOLips to develop its WO solutions (iTMS+Apple Store). Can someone tell me if WebObjects is dying? I think people who signed any NDA agreement can answer that question. I know Steve Jobs and Oracle's CEO has very good relationships and I would hate to see that after I learn WebObjects they announce it is dead. I mean I could spend the time learning another technology. About the thinksecret post I found something a little disturbing... Is it real the WebObjects team at Apple is as large as 4 people? I have read in this list almost all of the current Apple tools to develop WebObjects are deprecated. How come 4 people can make a new Java-based Web Object Development environment in reasonable time frame? Is it possible? I love Apple technologies, but it is very tough decision for a new WO comer to buy books, start training and read tutorials and documentation about a technology which tools are deprecated. Can someone give a breath of relief? And something I do not understand, if Apple is committed to WO, Why did not show the new tools first and then deprecate the old ones? Thank you, David Sanchez ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On 26 Aug 2006, at 09:19, David Sanchez wrote: Looking into J2EE, Cayenne/Tapestry can compete with WO? No. Integration in a framework and the quality of its tools count for a lot (and are usually undercredited). Ruby on Rails can create client/server apps that do not use a browser, like WO? Rails can be used to create any server technology that depends on transactional services - like SOAP, XML, HTML, etc. However, it is extremely rigid in terms of how it does this, and to create, for example, a Rails client, would involve working against the principle of defaults that Rails uses. Rails of often described as an opinionated framework, and you don't want to argue with it. Basically, for simple project (they don't have to be small), Rails has most of the advantages of WO. For more substantial projects, there is still, and probably always will be, a considerable gap. The challenge for WO is to see how significant the gap is between simple, and substantiial. Open source could be nice, but it is not faster than an enterprise (with money) to develop and back up a project. Spare time from programmers in the world cannot beat an army of developers. What army? There are faults with the OSS model, but time to market isn't a significant one - as strong OSS projects often consist of multiple small core teams - which usually move faster than one big army. And, WO for Objective-C wouldn't be better for WO. It would be faster, well integrated with Core Data and with mature XCode tools? Surely that is would be? Most of us agree, but we aren't having that discussion this week. Paul ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
David, [Disclaimer: Following is a fun weekend rant, skip it if you are not in the mood for it] Of course they do. But for how long? Welcome to the World of WebObjects. You just learned rule 1. There are only 3 rules in total. 1# Apple, the creator, will no let the Community see its Crystal Ball 2# Apple will not market WebObjects the way the Community hoped for 3# The Community will b*tch and whine about 1# and 2# from time to time against the creator in ritualized message postings - but stick with the tool and defend its objective superiority against non-believers. An outsider could say this has symptons of a grandscale masochistic (software) experiment written all over it, but will get like it after you get accustomed to it. Welcome :) PS: Actually, I wanted to post the funniest post I ever saw on the WO list in years that contained WO features like auto-rant, D2 Swiss bank account feature...does anyone remember that post ? I couldn't find it, must have been 2-3 years ago on this or the Omni list...it was hilarious. Marc ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
Hello David and everyone again, Four people is too small. ThinkSecret is a rumor site, they could have this number or the entire rumor about WebObjects wrong. AppleInsider posted a similar rumor one year ago and nothing happened back then... http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1135 So let's give Apple a change how things will work out. As many people mentioned Xcode will not stop working tomorrow and Apple just stated these applications will run on Leopard. Also WOLips (apparently, see other posters, I don't know...) being used internally at Apple means it's ready to go: If Apple can maintain the iTMS and then most possibly the rumored upcoming movie store with these tools, it should be good enough to get started with them, no :) ? Also, in the RoR web page, they state RoR will be included in Leopard. Yes. Don't let this scare you. Apple always included a vast set of working versions of popular open source technologies to OS X (Server) and make them work fine together - after all, that's their advantage over, say, Linux. A few years ago, Apple added PHP, then they added JBoss...all competitors of some kind to WebObjects. This didn't mean WO was dead, same for RoR. If a magic tool named NakedJellyBeans comes up, Apple will most likely bundle NJB with 10.6 and so on IMHO. Open source could be nice, but it is not faster than an enterprise (with money) to developand back up a project. WO open source vs closed source is a heated topic so I won't go there again:) I invite you to join the WebObjects-talk list where this has been discussed extensively some days ago. PS: A kind reader named Fabian sent me the link to that hilarious post. If you laugh hard, you will know you have been here for too long... http://lists.apple.com/archives/Webobjects-dev/2005/May/msg00176.html A parody we should take rumor sites news with a grain of salt, IMHO. Have a nice weekend. Marc ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
Hi! Sorry, my not-so-good english is preventing me from understanding this paragraph: Think Secret sources close to WebObjects development report the plan to open source WebObjects has been kicked around since 2004, when Apple CEO Steve Jobs privately declared his desires to move the high-end software Apple acquired in 1997 as part of its acquisition of NeXT, Inc. Mr. Jobs' wishes at the time were ultimately thwarted by Avie Tevanian, who was then chief software technology officer but departed Apple earlier this year. What does exactly mean his desires to move the high-end software? Move to where? :) Yours Miguel Arroz On 2006/08/26, at 01:37, Karl Gretton wrote: http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0608webobjects.html Interesting perspective from Think Secret. Karl ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/arroz% 40guiamac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] GUERRA E' PAZ LIBERDADE E' ESCRAVIDAO IGNORANCIA E' FORCA -- 1984 Miguel Arroz http://www.ipragma.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
Hi! On 2006/08/26, at 09:12, David Sanchez wrote: Of course they do. But for how long? Besides, any time Apple can just stop them to work with no prior notice. Also, it means there is no bug fixing, no support and no updated documentation. True, but who needs them anyway? The old tools are cool, but buggy and clearly had many problems. Open source alternatives, like WOLips, are better, and even apple employes use them. So, isn't it a better thing that those 4 people can concentrate on the technology itself, and not on the tools and specially on the Java-Cocoa bridge that gives them a hard time on every new Java version? I honestly do think so. And is Mike and all the other guys beyond WOLips could do what they did with the limited info they had, imagine what they can do now with official support from Apple, and access to the formats and protocols used by the tools. From what I know Apple's in house people use Eclipse (I maybe wrong but I don't think so) If that's the case, then the situation is worse than I thought. Not because Eclipse is a bad environment, but because Apple is not drinking its own Kool-Aid. Yes it is. iTunes Store is a major business for Apple right now (the most important one, some say). And it totally relies on WO. They eat their own god food, yeah. And they are so cool that they let us taste it as well! :) xCode is a very good environment for Cocoa/ObjC developers, and that's what they are focusing in. They cannot compete with Eclipse and other stuff for Java, because they are SO much better. So, they wont. Why should Apple reinvent the weel? But, one of the things I like is an integrated environment. If I take apart the Apple made tools (which are deprecated), old documentation (that won't be updated), a very small developing team (even though they might be geniuses, it is a lot of work for 4 people) and I need to use an open source plugin with Eclipse, forums and tutorials from third parties At the end, WebObject looks a lot like Cayenne/Tapestry. Not so. The documentation has been updated until the latest public version (5.3), 5.4 is still in works. It could have some better docs for newbies, I agree with that, but that's WAY DIFFERENT that saying it's old and not updated. The documentation is there, and it's very good. You just have to install Eclipse and WOLips. What's the big deal? Many of us did so, even while xCode and the tools existed, because we prefer Eclipse for one reason or another. We won't see a change there. And, I won't have to pay for the Tiger Server license to deploy. No you don't. I have some stuff delpoyed on OS X Client. It's legal and it works as good as in the server. All the deamons and modules are already there - just remove some commented lines on a startup script and let them fly. I mean, maybe WebObject is superior to Cayenne/Tapestry, I do not know WO that well yet, but I do not see where WO is going. WO will live for years. I love learning about technologies, but if WO is not going anywhere (not better, not worse), sooner or later, competitors are gonna get better tools than WO. That did not happen on the last 10 years. Maybe SOMEDAY some other technology will be better than WO. So what? On that day, learn it and migrate. Will you learn another technology NOW just because you GUESS that SOMEDAY it will be better than WO? Now that sounds risky to me... a lot more than investing in WO! Four people is too small. Apple has about 10 thousand employees, and 10 percent of them must be programmers (about 1 thousand, maybe less). If Apple, can only dedicate 4 people to WO, it does not look like they believe in the technology. I don't believe a company would base one of it's key business in a technology they don't believe in. But that's just me... Also, in the RoR web page, they state RoR will be included in Leopard. Of course. As many other stuff, like perl and PHP and Python. RoR is popular and sells. Apple wants to sell servers. So they include RoR. Great! I hope I can say... welcome to WO! :) Yours Miguel Arroz I felt like putting a bullet between the eyes of every Panda that wouldn't scr*w to save its species. -- Fight Club Miguel Arroz http://www.ipragma.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On Aug 26, 2006, at 9:08 AM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2006/08/26, at 09:12, David Sanchez wrote: Of course they do. But for how long? Besides, any time Apple can just stop them to work with no prior notice. Also, it means there is no bug fixing, no support and no updated documentation. True, but who needs them anyway? The old tools are cool, but buggy and clearly had many problems. Open source alternatives, like WOLips, are better, and even apple employes use them. So, isn't it a better thing that those 4 people can concentrate on the technology itself, and not on the tools and specially on the Java- Cocoa bridge that gives them a hard time on every new Java version? I honestly do think so. And is Mike and all the other guys beyond WOLips could do what they did with the limited info they had, imagine what they can do now with official support from Apple, and access to the formats and protocols used by the tools. So, is it possible that in some future (near future), all Apple official documentation will be updated to WOLips? I am installing the WO plugin for Eclipse. I will follow Apple docs with the deprecated tools and try to find everything on the Eclipse tool. It is already hard to learn something new, let's see if I can expand my mind with this. I am not yet completely comfortable with Eclipse plugins distribution scheme. I would really prefer a package to install everything I need. It does not seem like a Macintosh way of installing things. And, some people commented about IntelliJ/IDEA... ¿Is it better than the Eclipse for WO? From what I know Apple's in house people use Eclipse (I maybe wrong but I don't think so) If that's the case, then the situation is worse than I thought. Not because Eclipse is a bad environment, but because Apple is not drinking its own Kool-Aid. Yes it is. iTunes Store is a major business for Apple right now (the most important one, some say). And it totally relies on WO. They eat their own god food, yeah. And they are so cool that they let us taste it as well! :) xCode is a very good environment for Cocoa/ObjC developers, and that's what they are focusing in. They cannot compete with Eclipse and other stuff for Java, because they are SO much better. So, they wont. Why should Apple reinvent the weel? Sorry if I did not write properly. I was not talking about WO itself, but the tools they provide in XCode. But, one of the things I like is an integrated environment. If I take apart the Apple made tools (which are deprecated), old documentation (that won't be updated), a very small developing team (even though they might be geniuses, it is a lot of work for 4 people) and I need to use an open source plugin with Eclipse, forums and tutorials from third parties At the end, WebObject looks a lot like Cayenne/Tapestry. Not so. The documentation has been updated until the latest public version (5.3), 5.4 is still in works. It could have some better docs for newbies, I agree with that, but that's WAY DIFFERENT that saying it's old and not updated. The documentation is there, and it's very good. You just have to install Eclipse and WOLips. What's the big deal? Many of us did so, even while xCode and the tools existed, because we prefer Eclipse for one reason or another. We won't see a change there. That's a little arguable. I think. Documentation still talks about Project Builder and such, with screenshots and all. Even though I am a newbie in WO, I know XCode, but not everyone does. So, if they start talking about Project Builder and such it gets bizarre for new programmers. And, I won't have to pay for the Tiger Server license to deploy. No you don't. I have some stuff delpoyed on OS X Client. It's legal and it works as good as in the server. All the deamons and modules are already there - just remove some commented lines on a startup script and let them fly. This is the first time I read this. To be honest, I find that very interesting. If it is legal, this could mean a lot for small enterprises, which do not need an XServe, but can afford a bunch of Macintoshes (Which now days seem easier to sell). At least, to try the solutions for a little while before jumping into an XServe. I would really appreciate if you can tell me how to do it, or point me in the right direction. I mean, maybe WebObject is superior to Cayenne/Tapestry, I do not know WO that well yet, but I do not see where WO is going. WO will live for years. I love learning about technologies, but if WO is not going anywhere (not better, not worse), sooner or later, competitors are gonna get better tools than WO. That did not happen on the last 10 years. Maybe SOMEDAY some other technology will be better than WO. So what? On that day, learn it and migrate. Will you learn another technology NOW just because you GUESS that SOMEDAY it
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On Aug 26, 2006, at 6:31 AM, Paul Lynch wrote: On 26 Aug 2006, at 09:19, David Sanchez wrote: Looking into J2EE, Cayenne/Tapestry can compete with WO? No. Integration in a framework and the quality of its tools count for a lot (and are usually undercredited). I do not understand this fully. So, WO integrates better and have better tools (even though those are not from Apple). I find very interesting that Cayenne Modeler can read EO Models directly with its Swing interface included for Mac OS X. I do not understand why Apple cannot provide something like this. It does not seem so hard to program. Ruby on Rails can create client/server apps that do not use a browser, like WO? Rails can be used to create any server technology that depends on transactional services - like SOAP, XML, HTML, etc. However, it is extremely rigid in terms of how it does this, and to create, for example, a Rails client, would involve working against the principle of defaults that Rails uses. Rails of often described as an opinionated framework, and you don't want to argue with it. Basically, for simple project (they don't have to be small), Rails has most of the advantages of WO. For more substantial projects, there is still, and probably always will be, a considerable gap. The challenge for WO is to see how significant the gap is between simple, and substantiial. This is really interesting. Many companies still prefer Server/Client architecture with dedicated apps. Some of them mixed environments, some apps accessed through a Client apps and others trough Web protocols. It gives them the feeling that security is higher, interfaces are easier, better band with use, etc. I assume I can mix different interfaces for the same app at the same time in Web Objects. (Maybe I am wrong, I am still learning) I have read rails is also slower than Java. Have you had any experience with it? Open source could be nice, but it is not faster than an enterprise (with money) to develop and back up a project. Spare time from programmers in the world cannot beat an army of developers. What army? There are faults with the OSS model, but time to market isn't a significant one - as strong OSS projects often consist of multiple small core teams - which usually move faster than one big army. Yes, but the problem is you need to raise expectations and will in the small core teams. And sometimes that is very difficult. I would really hope to see those little small core teams helping WO. David Sanchez ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
Hi! On 2006/08/26, at 15:50, David Sanchez wrote: So, is it possible that in some future (near future), all Apple official documentation will be updated to WOLips? I don't think so. Apple *may* point you to WOLips, but it's not their responsibility to write documentation for 3rd party products. It's up to the WOLips authors to write that kind of documentation. I am installing the WO plugin for Eclipse. I will follow Apple docs with the deprecated tools and try to find everything on the Eclipse tool. It is already hard to learn something new, let's see if I can expand my mind with this. The tools will be here for a while. What I recommend is, do some pet-project with Apple tools. After you gain some familiarity and understand the basic concepts, fully move to WOLips. For example, I use WOLips but I still use the old WO Builder and EOModeler. You have time to make a smooth transition - use it wisely! I am not yet completely comfortable with Eclipse plugins distribution scheme. I would really prefer a package to install everything I need. It does not seem like a Macintosh way of installing things. People talked about it some days ago. I did not follow the discussion because I was in Las Vegas! :) But creating some easy stuff for newbies (install packages, screen casts, etc) is on the minds of the community. And, some people commented about IntelliJ/IDEA... ¿Is it better than the Eclipse for WO? That's one of those discussions... :) Eclipse has a very strong point: WOLips only works under Eclipse. That's a little arguable. I think. Documentation still talks about Project Builder and such, with screenshots and all. Where? All the docs I have read are updated to 5.3.something, and has screenshots of the current tools. This is the first time I read this. To be honest, I find that very interesting. If it is legal, this could mean a lot for small enterprises, which do not need an XServe, but can afford a bunch of Macintoshes (Which now days seem easier to sell). At least, to try the solutions for a little while before jumping into an XServe. I would really appreciate if you can tell me how to do it, or point me in the right direction. In a nutshell (I'll probably forget something, but...): 1) Edit, as root, the file /System/Library/StartupItems/WebObjects/ WebObjects and change it as you want (it has good comments on it). Basically you need to launch wotaskd and, if you want, WOMonitor. All the lines are there, just uncomment the ones you want to run. 2) Include, in apache config file (/etc/httpd/httpd.conf) the following configuration file: /System/Library/WebObjects/Adaptors/ Apache/apache.conf. You may need to change some stuff on that file, I don't remember, but if you are familiar with apache config files, should be no problem. 3) Reboot (or run SystemStarter and start WebObjects task) and turn on apache. 4) There's no step four. :) You have a full WO deployment system, just like on Mac OS X Server. I usually have all this stuff turned on on my powerbook (except the WOMonitor) because I develop without direct connect, due to static content stored on disk. This means that all my requests go trough apache, just like if the app was deployed. This is great if you want to go, say, with Mac Minis instead of xServes. A small company may buy 2 ou 3 mac minis, and a) it's cheaper than two xServes (you WANT redundancy... right?), b) it's easier to get - specially in Portugal! - (a mac mini died? Just go to an apple store and bring a new one), c) at least when compared to the xServe G5, you could get more horse power for less money (I'm not so sure with the new intel xServe). Just attach some firewire RAID box to the mac mini containing the database, so you can have extra redundancy on the DB (and faster access) and there you go. Yours Miguel Arroz GUERRA E' PAZ LIBERDADE E' ESCRAVIDAO IGNORANCIA E' FORCA -- 1984 Miguel Arroz http://www.ipragma.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
Hi! I find very interesting that Cayenne Modeler can read EO Models directly with its Swing interface included for Mac OS X. I do not understand why Apple cannot provide something like this. It does not seem so hard to program. I have never looked at Cayenne, but if it's open source, I'm sure it can easily be adapted for Apple's EO format, specially now that the format was published. Want to do some code? :) I have read rails is also slower than Java. Have you had any experience with it? Ruby runs in an interpreter, it's still not compiled. Java compilers and virtual machines are getting faster and faster. There's the big difference. I don't doubt that someday a ruby compiler will show up (if you can compile LISP, you can compile anything!). But, for now, it's slower. Yours Miguel Arroz The world lies in the hands of evil And we pray it would last -- Apocalyptica, Life Burns! Miguel Arroz http://www.ipragma.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On Aug 26, 2006, at 8:30 AM, Paul Lynch wrote: On 26 Aug 2006, at 13:43, Miguel Arroz wrote: Mr. Jobs' wishes at the time were ultimately thwarted by Avie Tevanian, who was then chief software technology officer but departed Apple earlier this year. You see how stupid this sentence sounds in isolation, right? Especially considering that Avie was in a similar position at NeXT. Just based on my knowledge of Steve his personality, there is no way he was thwarted by Avie. Gimme a break. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On 26 Aug 2006, at 16:04, David Sanchez wrote: On Aug 26, 2006, at 6:31 AM, Paul Lynch wrote: On 26 Aug 2006, at 09:19, David Sanchez wrote: Looking into J2EE, Cayenne/Tapestry can compete with WO? No. Integration in a framework and the quality of its tools count for a lot (and are usually undercredited). I do not understand this fully. So, WO integrates better and have better tools (even though those are not from Apple). Most web server environments don't include all that is in WO. Making them all interface smoothly is a major task, and involves considerable extra work when compared to a pure WO deployment. The (Apple supplied) WO tools, XCode, WOBuilder and EOModeler, make managing the definition files that are required very much easier. Try a Spring/Hibernate deployment, or J2EE, to see what I mean. Configuration files can amount to more lines than your actual code, and maintaining them by hand isn't a joyful experience - WO tools substantially reduce this hassle. This is one area where Rails is strong - their philosophy is to avoid configuration files by assuming reasonable defaults, what I call programming by consensus. WebObjects approach isn't as extreme, and has the advantage of being more flexible. I assume I can mix different interfaces for the same app at the same time in Web Objects. (Maybe I am wrong, I am still learning) Sure. You still have to create all the interfaces you wish, though, so you'll want to be sparing. D2WebServices makes a simple SOAP interface trivial, which helps. I have read rails is also slower than Java. Have you had any experience with it? Yes. It is. This isn't a big deal for the relatively small sites that Rails is being used to develop, but would be a killer for major WO applications - like iTMS. Paul ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
The tools will be here for a while. What I recommend is, do some pet-project with Apple tools. After you gain some familiarity and understand the basic concepts, fully move to WOLips. For example, I use WOLips but I still use the old WO Builder and EOModeler. You have time to make a smooth transition - use it wisely! Thank you. I will follow your advice until Apple says something. I think it is the best path to take. I am not yet completely comfortable with Eclipse plugins distribution scheme. I would really prefer a package to install everything I need. It does not seem like a Macintosh way of installing things. People talked about it some days ago. I did not follow the discussion because I was in Las Vegas! :) But creating some easy stuff for newbies (install packages, screen casts, etc) is on the minds of the community. It would really help. And, some people commented about IntelliJ/IDEA... ¿Is it better than the Eclipse for WO? That's one of those discussions... :) Eclipse has a very strong point: WOLips only works under Eclipse. That's a little arguable. I think. Documentation still talks about Project Builder and such, with screenshots and all. Where? All the docs I have read are updated to 5.3.something, and has screenshots of the current tools. Well, I am reading WODesktopApps.pdf (WebObjects Desktop Client Programming Guide, 304 pages). It says revisited 2005-08-11 (Which is not long ago, about a year). And they talk about Project Builder. Never mention XCode. I download it from here: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/DeveloperTools/WebObjects- date.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP3440-TP3436-TP3592 This is the first time I read this. To be honest, I find that very interesting. If it is legal, this could mean a lot for small enterprises, which do not need an XServe, but can afford a bunch of Macintoshes (Which now days seem easier to sell). At least, to try the solutions for a little while before jumping into an XServe. I would really appreciate if you can tell me how to do it, or point me in the right direction. In a nutshell (I'll probably forget something, but...): 1) Edit, as root, the file /System/Library/StartupItems/ WebObjects/WebObjects and change it as you want (it has good comments on it). Basically you need to launch wotaskd and, if you want, WOMonitor. All the lines are there, just uncomment the ones you want to run. 2) Include, in apache config file (/etc/httpd/httpd.conf) the following configuration file: /System/Library/WebObjects/Adaptors/ Apache/apache.conf. You may need to change some stuff on that file, I don't remember, but if you are familiar with apache config files, should be no problem. 3) Reboot (or run SystemStarter and start WebObjects task) and turn on apache. 4) There's no step four. :) You have a full WO deployment system, just like on Mac OS X Server. Very interesting. But I thought that you needed a deployment license to export the .woa. At least, that's what I understood. I usually have all this stuff turned on on my powerbook (except the WOMonitor) because I develop without direct connect, due to static content stored on disk. This means that all my requests go trough apache, just like if the app was deployed. This is great if you want to go, say, with Mac Minis instead of xServes. A small company may buy 2 ou 3 mac minis, and a) it's cheaper than two xServes (you WANT redundancy... right?), b) it's easier to get - specially in Portugal! - (a mac mini died? Just go to an apple store and bring a new one), c) at least when compared to the xServe G5, you could get more horse power for less money (I'm not so sure with the new intel xServe). Just attach some firewire RAID box to the mac mini containing the database, so you can have extra redundancy on the DB (and faster access) and there you go. You read my mind on what can be offer to small customers. Especially since I am in Latin America and Apple is not even considered in small to medium companies outside the Artist's circles. Even, designers, newspapers, magazines and such that are willing to implement Apple technologies (and have the resources) do not know how to, and end up with extremely expensive Oracle and Microsoft Windows Servers to run the business that is created and done with Apple machines (making the papers, video production, etc. ). Even, a rack of XServes is dirty cheap when compared to just the Oracle software and licensees. Besides all the support you need to make them work, and the machines you need to buy. That's why I got interested in WO, since it seems to offer pretty much what JDeveloper/ADF does, easier to implement and smaller fees. It could be made to work, but if Apple kills it, imagine my frustration learning WO. David ___ Do not post admin
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
Well, it is good to know, at least I am not the only one who has these love/hate relationship with Apple. Thank you for the welcome, I read also the post. Very funny indeed. David Sanchez David, [Disclaimer: Following is a fun weekend rant, skip it if you are not in the mood for it] Of course they do. But for how long? Welcome to the World of WebObjects. You just learned rule 1. There are only 3 rules in total. 1# Apple, the creator, will no let the Community see its Crystal Ball 2# Apple will not market WebObjects the way the Community hoped for 3# The Community will b*tch and whine about 1# and 2# from time to time against the creator in ritualized message postings - but stick with the tool and defend its objective superiority against non-believers. An outsider could say this has symptons of a grandscale masochistic (software) experiment written all over it, but will get like it after you get accustomed to it. Welcome :) PS: Actually, I wanted to post the funniest post I ever saw on the WO list in years that contained WO features like auto-rant, D2 Swiss bank account feature...does anyone remember that post ? I couldn't find it, must have been 2-3 years ago on this or the Omni list...it was hilarious. Marc ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On 26-Aug-06, at 12:09 PM, David Sanchez wrote: On Aug 26, 2006, at 11:42 AM, Paul Lynch wrote: On 26 Aug 2006, at 16:04, David Sanchez wrote: On Aug 26, 2006, at 6:31 AM, Paul Lynch wrote: On 26 Aug 2006, at 09:19, David Sanchez wrote: Looking into J2EE, Cayenne/Tapestry can compete with WO? No. Integration in a framework and the quality of its tools count for a lot (and are usually undercredited). I do not understand this fully. So, WO integrates better and have better tools (even though those are not from Apple). Most web server environments don't include all that is in WO. Making them all interface smoothly is a major task, and involves considerable extra work when compared to a pure WO deployment. The (Apple supplied) WO tools, XCode, WOBuilder and EOModeler, make managing the definition files that are required very much easier. Try a Spring/Hibernate deployment, or J2EE, to see what I mean. Configuration files can amount to more lines than your actual code, and maintaining them by hand isn't a joyful experience - WO tools substantially reduce this hassle. This is one area where Rails is strong - their philosophy is to avoid configuration files by assuming reasonable defaults, what I call programming by consensus. WebObjects approach isn't as extreme, and has the advantage of being more flexible. I know. I absolutely agree with every thing you say. I hope, XCode will be used to develop WO in the future. I do not know how because Cocoa-bridge is deprecated. They would need to re- write all the WO apps to use Objective-C and generate Java code, made them full Java Apps or just do not provide them anymore. But if Apple thinks about making all the WO tools pure Java (or pure Objective-C), Why did they not show those apps first and later deprecate the old ones? Instead of deprecating and leave amateurs wondering That's the little thing that I cannot understand. Lets look at this from a completely different (hypothetical) angle: The WO Frameworks have a very large number of Apple developers pounding on them daily. These developers are working on projects that range from internal ones we never see to the external high profile ones like iTMS and .Mac. Some of the projects arguably are the highest trafficked WebObjects applications on the planet. I'm sure these developers are finding bugs - and fixing them because they need their stuff to work and they have access to the code. Many (though not all) are *not* using Xcode+WOBuilder+EOModeler to build their apps. The WO Tools have a very small number of Apple developers assigned to them (Maybe 4, maybe less). The task of completely recreating the WO tools stack (I used stack, do I get a prize?) sans a dependency to the Cocoa-Java bridge is virtually impossible given the resources available. So from a completely pragmatic standpoint, if you were in charge of allocating resources for the tools within Apple, and you saw that the WOCommunity(tm) was doing an arguably better job at the task you were facing, would that not give you some ideas? Might you not say: If we drop the tools development, we can free up resources to focus on improving the Frameworks and integrate the fixes and enhancements our internal groups are finding into the public releases. That is what I think happened. For me, the bottom line is this: Regardless of what is going on in house at Apple, the boost this has given the WOCommunity is priceless. Disclaimer: This is all conjecture, I have no inside information, feel free to dismiss it if you wish. -- ;david -- David LeBer Codeferous Software 'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing' site: http://www.codeferous.com blog: http://david.codeferous.com -- Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group: http://www.tacow.org smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
After seeing some of the other posts, I'd like to be more explicit.I think WebObjects is still the most elegant solution to a really wide range of projects. There's a learning curve of course, but not to the degree of j2ee which requires serious knowledge of very different frameworks to do a good integration job. WebObjects frameworks were designed to work together and have consistent style and naming conventions.If you are developing a site for a specific purpose and it will be under your control for some time to come, WebObjects could be a good solution.But if you're going to be looking for work in the field going forward, WO isn't a growth area. Just the opposite. Just about all our old clients are migrating off. Open source isn't a panacea for making the software better, but it could help with acceptance. Companies that won't commit to WebObjects because it is (to their eyes) an obscure and neglected Apple product might be willing to use it if they thought it would have a life in the open source world, especially if it became a favorite of developers (which I think it could if they tried it).I would happily use WO on my own site, and I am even getting WO work now, but there isn't much of it left out there.JimOn Aug 26, 2006, at 4:19 AM, David Sanchez wrote:Thank you for your quick response.Looking into J2EE, Cayenne/Tapestry can compete with WO?Ruby on Rails can create client/server apps that do not use a browser, like WO?I do not understand why you believe open source WO can make it better.Open source could be nice, but it is not faster than an enterprise (with money) to develop and back up a project.Spare time from programmers in the world cannot beat an army of developers.And, WO for Objective-C wouldn't be better for WO. It would be faster, well integrated with Core Data and with mature XCode tools?David James E. Stead 407.252.3321 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On Aug 26, 2006, at 9:49 AM, David LeBer wrote: Lets look at this from a completely different (hypothetical) angle: The WO Frameworks have a very large number of Apple developers pounding on them daily. These developers are working on projects that range from internal ones we never see to the external high profile ones like iTMS and .Mac. Some of the projects arguably are the highest trafficked WebObjects applications on the planet. I'm sure these developers are finding bugs - and fixing them because they need their stuff to work and they have access to the code. Many (though not all) are *not* using Xcode+WOBuilder+EOModeler to build their apps. There is at least one person still stubbornly clinging to Xcode (hi Alan!). The WO Tools have a very small number of Apple developers assigned to them (Maybe 4, maybe less). The task of completely recreating the WO tools stack (I used stack, do I get a prize?) Yes! Please apply on-line to claim your prize! sans a dependency to the Cocoa-Java bridge is virtually impossible given the resources available. So from a completely pragmatic standpoint, if you were in charge of allocating resources for the tools within Apple, and you saw that the WOCommunity(tm) was doing an arguably better job at the task you were facing, would that not give you some ideas? Might you not say: If we drop the tools development, we can free up resources to focus on improving the Frameworks and integrate the fixes and enhancements our internal groups are finding into the public releases. That is what I think happened. I also think that this is what happened. For me, the bottom line is this: Regardless of what is going on in house at Apple, the boost this has given the WOCommunity is priceless. Agreed. We have a clear direction now, no more sitting on the fence hoping that Apple makes new tools. And with the focus on the core frameworks instead of tools, we can reasonably expect some bug fixes and enhancements driven from the projects at Apple. Disclaimer: This is all conjecture, I have no inside information, feel free to dismiss it if you wish. What David said. :-) Chuck -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems.http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On Aug 26, 2006, at 5:24 AM, David Sanchez wrote:Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 04:12:12 -0400 From: David Sanchez [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06 To: Dustin Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com On Aug 25, 2006, at 11:55 PM, Dustin Withers wrote: Hello! :) I think I got the worse time to learn WebObjects. All the tutorials in the Apple Web Site are referring to deprecated apps like EOModeler, and most of the books out there talk about them too. The tools are deprecated but you can still use them. The vast majority of information out there though still applies. Of course they do. But for how long?Does it matter? I think there are already great tools from the WO community TODAY. :-)I personally don't use WO because of the tools. And I don't judge WebObjects by how popular it is.I use it because of its clean / beautiful design. :-) Hmmm... That sounds like real love. :-D Besides, any time Apple can just stop them to work with no prior notice. Also, it means there is no bug fixing, no support and no updated documentation. I do not think Apple would convert iTunes Music Store and Apple website away from WebObjects. I do not know if there is any indication of it. I do not think Apple will also relay on WOLips to develop its WO solutions (iTMS+Apple Store). From what I know Apple's in house people use Eclipse (I maybe wrong but I don't think so) If that's the case, then the situation is worse than I thought. Actually that would make it consistent with their strategy. Improve the frameworks, the engine, etc.And work with the WO community in enhancing the tools.Not because Eclipse is a bad environment, but because Apple is not drinking its own Kool-Aid.But they do drink a lot of WebObjects. ;-) But, one of the things I like is an integrated environment. If I take apart the Apple made tools (which are deprecated), old documentation (that won't be updated), a very small developing team (even though they might be geniuses, it is a lot of work for 4 people) and I need to use an open source plugin with Eclipse, forums and tutorials from third parties At the end, WebObject looks a lot like Cayenne/ Tapestry.You are reading too much into that rumor. The 4 people is a low peak at one time from what I understand. And, I won't have to pay for the Tiger Server license to deploy.You do NOT have to deploy on OS X Server.You can deploy on Linux. Or maybe on a Mac mini running regular OS X.OS X Server is NOT required. ;-) I mean, maybe WebObject is superior to Cayenne/Tapestry, I do not know WO that well yet, but I do not see where WO is going.The WO tools from the WO community are cross platform. Continuously enhanced. And Apple will work with them.Does that tell you where the tools are headed? :-) And according to Apple we can expect more announcements in the future. :-DAnd the WO community if full of brilliant people.Also Apple is committing more engineering resources to WO and you can read the strategy announcement if you want to know where the engine is going. And then wait for the releases to see what's improved or attend the WWDC conferences to get a closer look before the next version is released. ;-)I am not fill with pessimism, but I need a reason to believe. There is always pessimism by many. I've been reading thoughts like this since the most successful days of WebObjects at NeXT.I'm personally happy with the strategy announced and look forward to it. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On Aug 26, 2006, at 12:19 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: There is at least one person still stubbornly clinging to Xcode (hi Alan!). Hey Chuck! How's things? You though you could sneak that in without me noticing didn't you? :-) So from a completely pragmatic standpoint, if you were in charge of allocating resources for the tools within Apple, and you saw that the WOCommunity(tm) was doing an arguably better job at the task you were facing, would that not give you some ideas? Might you not say: If we drop the tools development, we can free up resources to focus on improving the Frameworks and integrate the fixes and enhancements our internal groups are finding into the public releases. That is what I think happened. I also think that this is what happened. I have no insight into how/why the decision was made but that does seem make a lot of sense For me, the bottom line is this: Regardless of what is going on in house at Apple, the boost this has given the WOCommunity is priceless. Agreed. We have a clear direction now, no more sitting on the fence hoping that Apple makes new tools. And with the focus on the core frameworks instead of tools, we can reasonably expect some bug fixes and enhancements driven from the projects at Apple. Disclaimer: This is all conjecture, I have no inside information, feel free to dismiss it if you wish. What David said. :-) What Chuck said Oh wait! Alan Chuck -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems.http://www.global-village.net/products/ practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award% 40apple.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On 26-Aug-06, at 3:06 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Aug 26, 2006, at 9:49 AM, David LeBer wrote: Lets look at this from a completely different (hypothetical) angle: The WO Frameworks have a very large number of Apple developers pounding on them daily. These developers are working on projects that range from internal ones we never see to the external high profile ones like iTMS and .Mac. Some of the projects arguably are the highest trafficked WebObjects applications on the planet. I'm sure these developers are finding bugs - and fixing them because they need their stuff to work and they have access to the code. Many (though not all) are *not* using Xcode+WOBuilder+EOModeler to build their apps. There is at least one person still stubbornly clinging to Xcode (hi Alan!). Hey, I prefer Xcode to Eclipse too. Sosumi. :-) If they just documented the inter-app communication protocols among Xcode, WO Builder, EO Modeler, etc., it would make for even better for third-party tools that work with Xcode. The WO Tools have a very small number of Apple developers assigned to them (Maybe 4, maybe less). The task of completely recreating the WO tools stack (I used stack, do I get a prize?) Yes! Please apply on-line to claim your prize! Those few dedicated WO engineers are augmented by the dozens on the iTMS team, plus the .Mac, Apple Store and internal IT engineers who have access to the code-base and can at least point out bug fixes internally. sans a dependency to the Cocoa-Java bridge is virtually impossible given the resources available. So from a completely pragmatic standpoint, if you were in charge of allocating resources for the tools within Apple, and you saw that the WOCommunity(tm) was doing an arguably better job at the task you were facing, would that not give you some ideas? Might you not say: If we drop the tools development, we can free up resources to focus on improving the Frameworks and integrate the fixes and enhancements our internal groups are finding into the public releases. That is what I think happened. I also think that this is what happened. For me, the bottom line is this: Regardless of what is going on in house at Apple, the boost this has given the WOCommunity is priceless. Agreed. We have a clear direction now, no more sitting on the fence hoping that Apple makes new tools. And with the focus on the core frameworks instead of tools, we can reasonably expect some bug fixes and enhancements driven from the projects at Apple. It seems to me that this is as far as Apple's going to open the kimono, at least for now. Maybe there are intellectual property issues preventing the opening of WO or the existing tools. Or they want to keep control to ensure it provides for the best iTMS. Or there are inter-office politics involved. Or there's gel at the centre of WOF and Homeland Security won't allow it. Either way, I suspect the deprecation of the Obj-C-Java bridge may have something to do with where Apple's taking the language and its run-time in the future. While Obj-C 2.0 on Leopard may allow for a functioning bridge, planned future changes may make it not worth the engineering effort to keep the bridge working. Disclaimer: This is all conjecture, I have no inside information, feel free to dismiss it if you wish. What David said. :-) Ditto for me. BTW, I've used two classic Apple-isms. Do I get a prize too? :-) Chuck -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems.http://www.global-village.net/products/ practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
On Aug 26, 2006, at 6:09 AM, David Sanchez wrote: I hope, XCode will be used to develop WO in the future. I do not know how because Cocoa-bridge is deprecated. Xcode doesn't currently use the Java-ObjC bridge to build WO projects; it just invokes jam to build WO projects using javac or jikes. On Aug 24, 2006, at 12:37 PM, Daryl Lee wrote: Apple's strategy is to make WebObjects the best server-side runtime environment we can by: - Making WO work well with ANT and the most popular IDEs, including Xcode and Eclipse So instead of invoking jam, Xcode 3 will apparently invoke ant to build WO projects. This then offers the promise of the same ant WO projects being able to be managed by Xcode, Eclipse, and other Java IDE's that use ant. So it doesn't appear that the Java-ObjC bridge deprecation will prevent Xcode from managing future WO projects. Aloha, Art ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0608webobjects.html Interesting perspective from Think Secret. Karl ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
Hi! I am new to WebObjects and new in the list. I decide to learn WebObjects to get a wider understanding of technologies MVC. The other MVC I know of is Oracle ADC trough JDeveloper, but due to recent changes in licensing policies it has become too expensive for small business solutions (5000 dollars and up just for ADC). I think I got the worse time to learn WebObjects. All the tutorials in the Apple Web Site are referring to deprecated apps like EOModeler, and most of the books out there talk about them too. I do not think Apple would convert iTunes Music Store and Apple website away from WebObjects. I do not know if there is any indication of it. I do not think Apple will also relay on WOLips to develop its WO solutions (iTMS+Apple Store). Can someone tell me if WebObjects is dying? I think people who signed any NDA agreement can answer that question. I know Steve Jobs and Oracle's CEO has very good relationships and I would hate to see that after I learn WebObjects they announce it is dead. I mean I could spend the time learning another technology. About the thinksecret post I found something a little disturbing... Is it real the WebObjects team at Apple is as large as 4 people? I have read in this list almost all of the current Apple tools to develop WebObjects are deprecated. How come 4 people can make a new Java-based Web Object Development environment in reasonable time frame? Is it possible? I love Apple technologies, but it is very tough decision for a new WO comer to buy books, start training and read tutorials and documentation about a technology which tools are deprecated. Can someone give a breath of relief? And something I do not understand, if Apple is committed to WO, Why did not show the new tools first and then deprecate the old ones? Thank you, David Sanchez Message: 2 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 21:37:18 -0300 From: Karl Gretton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06 To: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0608webobjects.html Interesting perspective from Think Secret. Karl ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
David,We all love WebObjects because it is a terrific development environment, one that you appreciate all the more when you try the alternatives. But all it takes is a dice search to understand that j2ee and .Net dominate (like thousands of jobs vs 10 jobs). Apple is deep in WebObjects because of the infrastructure it has built using it, but has no business interest in it any more. At one time when WebObjects was THE web development tool they might have used it as a wedge to sell other Apple products (since it came in through the IT Dept. front door instead of the Graphics Dept. back door), but that's when it sold for $25,000. The opportunity has passed.I believe that as late as today WebObjects might find a life if it was open-sourced. I base this on the amazing proliferation of j2ee and other frameworks, which go to show that the problem is not solved. It's wild how much more work it is to do a site in struts than WebObjects, for example. But apparently Apple either has a positive reason not to do this (say legal reasons) or a negative reason (like there's nothing in it for them), so it appears unlikely to occur.WebObjects won't go away soon, but simply cannot be a growth area under the present circumstances, no matter what features they add. Wonderful tool, bad prospects. Better to look at Ruby on Rails if you're a technology lover or j2ee if you're a practical guy.JimOn Aug 25, 2006, at 9:26 PM, David Sanchez wrote:Hi!I am new to WebObjects and new in the list. I decide to learn WebObjects to get a wider understanding of technologies MVC. The other MVC I know of is Oracle ADC trough JDeveloper, but due to recent changes in licensing policies it has become too expensive for small business solutions (5000 dollars and up just for ADC).I think I got the worse time to learn WebObjects. All the tutorials in the Apple Web Site are referring to deprecated apps like EOModeler, and most of the books out there talk about them too.I do not think Apple would convert iTunes Music Store and Apple website away from WebObjects. I do not know if there is any indication of it. I do not think Apple will also relay on WOLips to develop its WO solutions (iTMS+Apple Store).Can someone tell me if WebObjects is dying? I think people who signed any NDA agreement can answer that question.I know Steve Jobs and Oracle's CEO has very good relationships and I would hate to see that after I learn WebObjects they announce it is dead.I mean I could spend the time learning another technology.About the thinksecret post I found something a little disturbing... Is it real the WebObjects team at Apple is as large as 4 people?I have read in this list almost all of the current Apple tools to develop WebObjects are deprecated. How come 4 people can make a new Java-based Web Object Development environment in reasonable time frame? Is it possible?I love Apple technologies, but it is very tough decision for a new WO comer to buy books, start training and read tutorials and documentation about a technology which tools are deprecated. Can someone give a breath of relief?And something I do not understand, if Apple is committed to WO, Why did not show the new tools first and then deprecate the old ones?Thank you,David Sanchez Message: 2Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 21:37:18 -0300From: Karl Gretton [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06To: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.comMessage-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowedhttp://www.thinksecret.com/news/0608webobjects.htmlInteresting perspective from Think Secret.Karl ___Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com)Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jimstead%40mac.comThis email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] James E. Stead 407.252.3321 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
Hello Jim (and David and everyone else), Oh, boy. Just when I stopped arguing on WebObjects-Talk on the very same topic started a few days ago :) (To repeat I'm in no way related to the article and have no inside knowledge whatsoever) I believe that as late as today WebObjects might find a life if it was open-sourced. Me too. But it doesn't need to be now..5.4 might be a good timeframe IMHO. WebObjects won't go away soon, but simply cannot be a growth area under the present circumstances, no matter what features they add. Wonderful tool, bad prospects. IMHO, WO is already in a better position today than it was 2-3 years ago, ie. since moving from a rather neglected product to a free developer tool: NeXT high-end and niche service/product (pre Apple) - Apple mainstream* boxed developer product (2000/2001) - free developer tool (WWDC 2005) - hybrid community developer tool with free runtime (WWDC 2006) If anyone's interested, I argued that the next step could and should be Open Source in the future. This is over at WebObjects-talk so as not to clutter this list :) Better to look at Ruby on Rails if you're a technology lover or j2ee if you're a practical guy. A good example that a free WO (and later a shared source or open source WO) could go a long way in short time: Where was Ruby on Rails just 2-3 years ago ? Nowhere on most people's minds... David, there is already a guide available today as you probably saw... http://www.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOL/Install+WOLips+with+Eclipse+Update+Manager and a general FAQ... http://www.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOCOM/FAQ+on+WebObjects More info will be added as it comes in. Marc * = that was the idea :) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Looks like ThinkSecret got some of the scoop on WO from WWDC'06 Date: August 25, 2006 10:55:38 PM CDT To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Hello! :)I think I got the worse time to learn WebObjects. All the tutorials in the Apple Web Site are referring to deprecated apps like EOModeler, and most of the books out there talk about them too.The tools are deprecated but you can still use them. The vast majority of information out there though still applies.I do not think Apple would convert iTunes Music Store and Apple website away from WebObjects. I do not know if there is any indication of it. I do not think Apple will also relay on WOLips to develop its WO solutions (iTMS+Apple Store).From what I know Apple's in house people use Eclipse (I maybe wrong but I don't think so)Can someone tell me if WebObjects is dying? I think people who signed any NDA agreement can answer that question.Apple made a statement. They are only deprecating the tool chain in favor of open source alternatives. They are also opening all of their specifications to make it easier to code the open source alternatives.I know Steve Jobs and Oracle's CEO has very good relationships and I would hate to see that after I learn WebObjects they announce it is dead.I don't think WO Is going anywhere. Learning any ORM is worth doing just to open your mind on how things work.I mean I could spend the time learning another technology.I've spent time learning RoR, TurboGears and WO. Everything is worth learning for one reason or another but WO doesn't look to be going anywhere.About the thinksecret post I found something a little disturbing... Is it real the WebObjects team at Apple is as large as 4 people?I think that shows how powerful the framework is that it only requires a small amount of people to develop some very powerful apps.I have read in this list almost all of the current Apple tools to develop WebObjects are deprecated. How come 4 people can make a new Java-based Web Object Development environment in reasonable time frame? Is it possible?See above.I love Apple technologies, but it is very tough decision for a new WO comer to buy books, start training and read tutorials and documentation about a technology which tools are deprecated. Can someone give a breath of relief?There is quite a bit of documentation on the tools and WO in general. Check out the links below.And something I do not understand, if Apple is committed to WO, Why did not show the new tools first and then deprecate the old ones?Apple isn't releasing new tools they are just opening the specs up and deprecating the old tools.Most people agree that Xcode was a very poor Java environment. Both Eclipse and IntelliJ have WO support and are excellent Java environments.http://www.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOL/Home;jsessionid=3C930979BC96A6EBEA0B05C742985844http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:WebObjectshttp://homepage.mac.com/kelleherk/iblog/C183784902/index.htmlhttp://lists.apple.com/archives/webobjects-dev/2006/Aug/msg01144.htmlHave fun! ;)-dustin ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
