Re: [whatwg] Proposal: Inline pronounce element (Tab Atkins Jr.)
On Jun 6, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Charles McCathie Nevile cha...@yandex-team.ru
wrote:
On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 14:22:48 +0200, Koji Ishii kojii...@gluesoft.co.jp
wrote:
On Jun 5, 2014, at 22:08, Tab Atkins Jr. jackalm...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Nils Dagsson Moskopp
n...@dieweltistgarnichtso.net wrote:
Brett Zamir bret...@yahoo.com writes:
On 6/5/2014 3:05 AM, whatwg-requ...@lists.whatwg.org wrote:
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 3:26 AM, Daniel Morris
daniel+wha...@honestempire.com wrote:
...
There is currently no other text-level semantic that I know of for
pronunciation, but we have elements for abbreviation and definition.
As an initial suggestion:
pronounce ipa=??a?p?d?iPad/pronounce
(Where the `ipa` attribute is the pronunciation using the
International Phonetic Alphabet.)
What are your thoughts on this,
...
This is already theoretically addressed by link rel=pronunciation,
linking to a well-defined pronunciation file format. Nobody
implements that, but nobody implements anything new either, of course.
I think it'd be a lot easier for sites, say along the lines of
Wikipedia, to support inline markup to allow users to get a word
referenced at the beginning of an article, for example, pronounced
accurately.
Is there any reason one cannot use the ruby element for pronunciation?
Example:
rubyElfriede Jelinekrp (/rprtɛlˈfʀiːdə ˈjɛlinɛk/rtrp)
/rp/ruby
That's adequate for visually providing the pronunciation, but I think
the original request was for a way to tell screen readers and similar
tools how to pronounce an unfamiliar word.
True, but one could still use ruby for its semantics, and visually use the
CSS to hide the pronunciations:
rp, rt, rtc { display: none; }
In general screen readers respect HTML. If you use display:none they will not
render that content. So please do not do that.
Besides, the information is normally useful to people who can see it too - or
who can partially see it.
Screen readers may have supported reading text in rt instead of its base
text when they supported Japanese. At least some screen readers in Japan
does this.
The common use case for Ruby in both chinese and japanese, as far as I
understand, is to provide pronunciation. I don't see why that would be
inappropriate in general.
I agree. The whole idea of using ruby for other kinds of footnote-like
annotations is rather red herring because that's not how ruby is used. Given
the presentation of ruby elements are now fully spec'ed by CSS, there's nothing
that prevents authors from using other HTML elements such as span, or even add
a new element for annotations. Or perhaps adding some attribute on ruby
indicating whether a given ruby text is used to annotate or to indicate
pronunciation might be sufficient.
- R. Niwa
Re: [whatwg] Proposal: Inline pronounce element
On 6/10/2014 3:05 AM, whatwg-requ...@lists.whatwg.org wrote: Message: 1 Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2014 15:41:32 -0400 From: timel...@gmail.com To: whatwg@lists.whatwg.org Subject: Re: [whatwg] Proposal: Inline pronounce element Message-ID: 20140608194132.7602328.57406@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Tab wrote: This is already theoretically addressed by link rel=pronunciation, linking to a well-defined pronunciation file format. Nobody implements that, but nobody implements anything new either, of course. Brett wrote: I think it'd be a lot easier for sites, say along the lines of Wikipedia, to support inline markup to allow users to get a word referenced at the beginning of an article, for example, pronounced accurately. Wikipedia can easily use data:... if it needs to.? And wiktionary already has a solution... A better challenge is explaining to a screen reader if read is rEd or rehD in a page where you want to define and use both. I claim that this can be addressed with id= on the link and a ref= (or similar) on the use.? But before User Agents should be asked to support this, I'd want to see real sites showing an interest.? Screen Reader vendors seem ok with the current state - they sell the pronunciation tables... My thought was that browsers could expose some interface for getting the word pronounced even if the user was not using a screen reader. And without a site needing to have supplied it's own JavaScript to apply styling and buttons around such tags so that when clicked, a `SpeechSynthesisUtterance` would be made. Brett
Re: [whatwg] Proposal: Inline pronounce element
Tab wrote: This is already theoretically addressed by link rel=pronunciation, linking to a well-defined pronunciation file format. Nobody implements that, but nobody implements anything new either, of course. Brett wrote: I think it'd be a lot easier for sites, say along the lines of Wikipedia, to support inline markup to allow users to get a word referenced at the beginning of an article, for example, pronounced accurately. Wikipedia can easily use data:... if it needs to. And wiktionary already has a solution... A better challenge is explaining to a screen reader if read is rEd or rehD in a page where you want to define and use both. I claim that this can be addressed with id= on the link and a ref= (or similar) on the use. But before User Agents should be asked to support this, I'd want to see real sites showing an interest. Screen Reader vendors seem ok with the current state - they sell the pronunciation tables...
Re: [whatwg] Proposal: Inline pronounce element (Tab Atkins Jr.)
On Jun 5, 2014, at 22:08, Tab Atkins Jr. jackalm...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Nils Dagsson Moskopp
n...@dieweltistgarnichtso.net wrote:
Brett Zamir bret...@yahoo.com writes:
On 6/5/2014 3:05 AM, whatwg-requ...@lists.whatwg.org wrote:
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 3:26 AM, Daniel Morris
daniel+wha...@honestempire.com wrote:
Hello,
With existing assistive technology such as screen readers, and more
recently the pervasiveness of new technologies such as Siri and Google
Now to name two examples, I have been thinking about the
appropriateness and potential of having a way to represent the
pronunciation of words on a web page.
There is currently no other text-level semantic that I know of for
pronunciation, but we have elements for abbreviation and definition.
As an initial suggestion:
pronounce ipa=??a?p?d?iPad/pronounce
(Where the `ipa` attribute is the pronunciation using the
International Phonetic Alphabet.)
What are your thoughts on this, or does something already exist that I
am not aware of?
This is already theoretically addressed by link rel=pronunciation,
linking to a well-defined pronunciation file format. Nobody
implements that, but nobody implements anything new either, of course.
I think it'd be a lot easier for sites, say along the lines of
Wikipedia, to support inline markup to allow users to get a word
referenced at the beginning of an article, for example, pronounced
accurately.
Is there any reason one cannot use the ruby element for pronunciation?
Example:
rubyElfriede Jelinekrp (/rprtɛlˈfʀiːdə ˈjɛlinɛk/rtrp)
/rp/ruby
That's adequate for visually providing the pronunciation, but I think
the original request was for a way to tell screen readers and similar
tools how to pronounce an unfamiliar word.
True, but one could still use ruby for its semantics, and visually use the
CSS to hide the pronunciations:
rp, rt, rtc { display: none; }
Screen readers may have supported reading text in rt instead of its base text
when they supported Japanese. At least some screen readers in Japan does this.
/koji
Re: [whatwg] Proposal: Inline pronounce element (Tab Atkins Jr.)
On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 14:22:48 +0200, Koji Ishii kojii...@gluesoft.co.jp
wrote:
On Jun 5, 2014, at 22:08, Tab Atkins Jr. jackalm...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Nils Dagsson Moskopp
n...@dieweltistgarnichtso.net wrote:
Brett Zamir bret...@yahoo.com writes:
On 6/5/2014 3:05 AM, whatwg-requ...@lists.whatwg.org wrote:
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 3:26 AM, Daniel Morris
daniel+wha...@honestempire.com wrote:
...
There is currently no other text-level semantic that I know of for
pronunciation, but we have elements for abbreviation and definition.
As an initial suggestion:
pronounce ipa=??a?p?d?iPad/pronounce
(Where the `ipa` attribute is the pronunciation using the
International Phonetic Alphabet.)
What are your thoughts on this,
...
This is already theoretically addressed by link rel=pronunciation,
linking to a well-defined pronunciation file format. Nobody
implements that, but nobody implements anything new either, of
course.
I think it'd be a lot easier for sites, say along the lines of
Wikipedia, to support inline markup to allow users to get a word
referenced at the beginning of an article, for example, pronounced
accurately.
Is there any reason one cannot use the ruby element for
pronunciation?
Example:
rubyElfriede Jelinekrp (/rprtɛlˈfʀiːdə ˈjɛlinɛk/rtrp)
/rp/ruby
That's adequate for visually providing the pronunciation, but I think
the original request was for a way to tell screen readers and similar
tools how to pronounce an unfamiliar word.
True, but one could still use ruby for its semantics, and visually use
the CSS to hide the pronunciations:
rp, rt, rtc { display: none; }
In general screen readers respect HTML. If you use display:none they will
not render that content. So please do not do that.
Besides, the information is normally useful to people who can see it too -
or who can partially see it.
Screen readers may have supported reading text in rt instead of its
base text when they supported Japanese. At least some screen readers in
Japan does this.
The common use case for Ruby in both chinese and japanese, as far as I
understand, is to provide pronunciation. I don't see why that would be
inappropriate in general.
The last thing I saw in Wikipedia was Ray and Maria Stata Center
(/steɪtə/ stay-ta). This seems like a pretty clear use case for ruby to
me.
There is also the Pronunciation Lexicon Specification which is a W3C
Recommendation, but it would take some effort to get that into browsers,
and the browser world seems to find XML too difficult these days so it may
need to be re-done in another format.
Of course syntax is trivial - you could rebuild it as microdata, or RDFa,
or something. The trick is getting people to agree on something they will
implement. I don't recommend microdata because you can't mix vocabularies,
and you may want to have e.g. schema.org data and pronunciation
information for the same content. But
--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
cha...@yandex-team.ru Find more at http://yandex.com
Re: [whatwg] Proposal: Inline pronounce element (Tab Atkins Jr.)
Brett Zamir bret...@yahoo.com writes: On 6/5/2014 3:05 AM, whatwg-requ...@lists.whatwg.org wrote: On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 3:26 AM, Daniel Morris daniel+wha...@honestempire.com wrote: Hello, With existing assistive technology such as screen readers, and more recently the pervasiveness of new technologies such as Siri and Google Now to name two examples, I have been thinking about the appropriateness and potential of having a way to represent the pronunciation of words on a web page. There is currently no other text-level semantic that I know of for pronunciation, but we have elements for abbreviation and definition. As an initial suggestion: pronounce ipa=??a?p?d?iPad/pronounce (Where the `ipa` attribute is the pronunciation using the International Phonetic Alphabet.) What are your thoughts on this, or does something already exist that I am not aware of? This is already theoretically addressed by link rel=pronunciation, linking to a well-defined pronunciation file format. Nobody implements that, but nobody implements anything new either, of course. ~TJ I think it'd be a lot easier for sites, say along the lines of Wikipedia, to support inline markup to allow users to get a word referenced at the beginning of an article, for example, pronounced accurately. Brett Is there any reason one cannot use the ruby element for pronunciation? Example: rubyElfriede Jelinekrp (/rprtɛlˈfʀiːdə ˈjɛlinɛk/rtrp) /rp/ruby -- Nils Dagsson Moskopp // erlehmann http://dieweltistgarnichtso.net
Re: [whatwg] Proposal: Inline pronounce element (Tab Atkins Jr.)
On 6/5/2014 3:05 AM, whatwg-requ...@lists.whatwg.org wrote: On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 3:26 AM, Daniel Morris daniel+wha...@honestempire.com wrote: Hello, With existing assistive technology such as screen readers, and more recently the pervasiveness of new technologies such as Siri and Google Now to name two examples, I have been thinking about the appropriateness and potential of having a way to represent the pronunciation of words on a web page. There is currently no other text-level semantic that I know of for pronunciation, but we have elements for abbreviation and definition. As an initial suggestion: pronounce ipa=??a?p?d?iPad/pronounce (Where the `ipa` attribute is the pronunciation using the International Phonetic Alphabet.) What are your thoughts on this, or does something already exist that I am not aware of? This is already theoretically addressed by link rel=pronunciation, linking to a well-defined pronunciation file format. Nobody implements that, but nobody implements anything new either, of course. ~TJ I think it'd be a lot easier for sites, say along the lines of Wikipedia, to support inline markup to allow users to get a word referenced at the beginning of an article, for example, pronounced accurately. Brett
[whatwg] Proposal: Inline pronounce element
Hello, With existing assistive technology such as screen readers, and more recently the pervasiveness of new technologies such as Siri and Google Now to name two examples, I have been thinking about the appropriateness and potential of having a way to represent the pronunciation of words on a web page. There is currently no other text-level semantic that I know of for pronunciation, but we have elements for abbreviation and definition. As an initial suggestion: pronounce ipa=“ˈaɪpæd”iPad/pronounce (Where the `ipa` attribute is the pronunciation using the International Phonetic Alphabet.) What are your thoughts on this, or does something already exist that I am not aware of?
Re: [whatwg] Proposal: Inline pronounce element
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 3:26 AM, Daniel Morris daniel+wha...@honestempire.com wrote: Hello, With existing assistive technology such as screen readers, and more recently the pervasiveness of new technologies such as Siri and Google Now to name two examples, I have been thinking about the appropriateness and potential of having a way to represent the pronunciation of words on a web page. There is currently no other text-level semantic that I know of for pronunciation, but we have elements for abbreviation and definition. As an initial suggestion: pronounce ipa=“ˈaɪpæd”iPad/pronounce (Where the `ipa` attribute is the pronunciation using the International Phonetic Alphabet.) What are your thoughts on this, or does something already exist that I am not aware of? This is already theoretically addressed by link rel=pronunciation, linking to a well-defined pronunciation file format. Nobody implements that, but nobody implements anything new either, of course. ~TJ
