Re: [whatwg] Spec should require UAs to have control to mute/ pause audio/ video
On Thu, 7 May 2009, Bruce Lawson wrote: I think the spec should explicity require UAs to provide a mehanism to mute audio and to pause video, even if the controls attribute is not set. We can't require this. Imagine a user agent that is a jumbotron in Times Square, controlled by just a big scrollwheel and huge button in the middle of the road, and big speakers. Why should such a user agent be required to provide a mute UI? This will be of great benefit to screenreader users, as well as to people who work in shared environments and who may not be expecting noise. I agree that it would be good practice to have such an interface, but that's something for users to take up with their vendors, it's not something that the spec should get involved in. (There is a precedent for worrying about mere annoyance: User agents should not provide a public API to cause videos to be shown full-screen. A script, combined with a carefully crafted video file, could trick the user into thinking a system-modal dialog had been shown, and prompt the user for a password. There is also the danger of mere annoyance, with pages launching full-screen videos when links are clicked or pages navigated.) This is more about security than mere annoyance. The latter is just an afterthought here. Should autoplay be removed as an attribute of audio and video, precisely to remove such annoyance from people who rely on aural browsing? On the contrary, having this be a declarative attribute makes it easier to disable. If we remove the attribute, authors will do it in JS and we'll be powerless to remove it. Ironically, the attribute is present precisely because it can be annoying. On Sat, 9 May 2009, Bruce Lawson wrote: But that adds weight to my greater argument for a mandatory control on autoplayed media allowing user to mute sound. Relying in the operating system's volume control is not the option as that mutes the offending sound *and* screenreader output, so the rest of the content is inaudible. On Thu, 7 May 2009, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote: I don't see why this should be a browser requirement. UAs are *allowed* to provide such a facility to their users, so if your UA doesn't, complain until they do! Perfect solution for those who live in Utopia. But as many users neither choose their browsers, or are unable to change them, it's better to require it of the browser. The world in which the spec has any control over what browsers implement is far more Utopia than the world in which browser vendors respond to their users' needs, believe me. :-) -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] Spec should require UAs to have control to mute/ pause audio/ video
On Sat, May 9, 2009, at 2:16 PM, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote: The issue is that not all browsers have significant configs (I'm thinking of mobile browsers here), and I don't believe their inability to provide such a choice to the user should make them nonconforming. If a UA is incapable of audio output, by extension it conforms to wording that uses MUST. (That is, it mutes audio by default, as it provides no means to play audio.) So I'm not sure this is an actual issue. In the illogical event that an audio-free UA wouldn't conform to this requirement, surely it's possible to word the specification in such a way that exempts those browsers from the requirement. As well, recall that the majority browser for 'unsophisticated' users is still IE6 or 7, and IE8 still lacks any support for video at all What does the lack of support for video in IE 6-8 have to do with an argument against requiring UAs to mute audio in audio and video? Because those browsers exist without support for those elements, it falls upon developers, content producers, et al., to make a good-faith effort to provide accessible (and screenreader-friendly) content; the wording of the HTML5 spec doesn't change current conditions, nor should it be expected to. Thanks, Erik Vorhes
Re: [whatwg] Spec should require UAs to have control to mute/ pause audio/ video
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Erik Vorhes e...@textivism.com wrote: On Sat, May 9, 2009, at 2:16 PM, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote: The issue is that not all browsers have significant configs (I'm thinking of mobile browsers here), and I don't believe their inability to provide such a choice to the user should make them nonconforming. If a UA is incapable of audio output, by extension it conforms to wording that uses MUST. (That is, it mutes audio by default, as it provides no means to play audio.) So I'm not sure this is an actual issue. In the illogical event that an audio-free UA wouldn't conform to this requirement, surely it's possible to word the specification in such a way that exempts those browsers from the requirement. Sorry, I meant mobile browsers *with* audio but *without* significant config dialogs. As well, recall that the majority browser for 'unsophisticated' users is still IE6 or 7, and IE8 still lacks any support for video at all What does the lack of support for video in IE 6-8 have to do with an argument against requiring UAs to mute audio in audio and video? Because those browsers exist without support for those elements, it falls upon developers, content producers, et al., to make a good-faith effort to provide accessible (and screenreader-friendly) content; the wording of the HTML5 spec doesn't change current conditions, nor should it be expected to. Part of your argument against just making this a SHOULD was about people not having the knowledge or ability to switch browsers, in the event that their current browser doesn't provide them a way to globally mute audio/video. My point was that the vast majority of such people are on one of the versions of Internet Explorer, as that is the basic 'default' on Windows. Given that IE, even up through IE8, doesn't support audio/video at all, let alone with special consideration for accessibility, those people without the knowledge/ability to switch browsers are pretty much stuck anyway, no matter what the spec says. Thus, it should be acceptable to push browser vendors to provide this feature simple for accessibility purposes, and those users who *can* switch their browsers will be able to switch to one that implements this. ~TJ
Re: [whatwg] Spec should require UAs to have control to mute/ pause audio/ video
On Fri, 08 May 2009 02:10:20 +0100, Tab Atkins Jr. jackalm...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Bruce Lawson bru...@opera.com wrote: Should autoplay be removed as an attribute of audio and video, precisely to remove such annoyance from people who rely on aural browsing? While there are video sites such as youTube that do play videos automatically, others such as vimeo don't. Is there an archive that lists the use-cases for autoplay and contrasts it with the annoyance and accessibility issues?. I'm convinced by Simon Pieters that removing the autoplay attribute wouldn't solve matters as people would just use script, and a browser option that disables autoplay across the board is better. But that adds weight to my greater argument for a mandatory control on autoplayed media allowing user to mute sound. Relying in the operating system's volume control is not the option as that mutes the offending sound *and* screenreader output, so the rest of the content is inaudible. I don't see why this should be a browser requirement. UAs are *allowed* to provide such a facility to their users, so if your UA doesn't, complain until they do! Perfect solution for those who live in Utopia. But as many users neither choose their browsers, or are unable to change them, it's better to require it of the browser. bruce -- Hang loose and stay groovy, Bruce Lawson Web Evangelist www.opera.com (work) www.brucelawson.co.uk (personal)
Re: [whatwg] Spec should require UAs to have control to mute/ pause audio/ video
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 2:45 AM, Bruce Lawson bru...@opera.com wrote: On Fri, 08 May 2009 02:10:20 +0100, Tab Atkins Jr. jackalm...@gmail.com wrote: I don't see why this should be a browser requirement. UAs are *allowed* to provide such a facility to their users, so if your UA doesn't, complain until they do! Perfect solution for those who live in Utopia. But as many users neither choose their browsers, or are unable to change them, it's better to require it of the browser. Browser developers are typically attentive to accessibility issues, especially when they can be resolved by something as easy as a simple config entry. A SHOULD would be sufficient there. The issue is that not all browsers have significant configs (I'm thinking of mobile browsers here), and I don't believe their inability to provide such a choice to the user should make them nonconforming. As well, recall that the majority browser for 'unsophisticated' users is still IE6 or 7, and IE8 still lacks any support for video at all, so those users will be stuck dealing with js and flash-based video for some time still. Marginally more savvy users will be using FF, Opera, or Safari, all of which I believe would likely be receptive to this change. ~TJ
[whatwg] Spec should require UAs to have control to mute/ pause audio/ video
This may already be in the spec, but I couldn't find it. I think the spec should explicity require UAs to provide a mehanism to mute audio and to pause video, even if the controls attribute is not set. This will be of great benefit to screenreader users, as well as to people who work in shared environments and who may not be expecting noise. (There is a precedent for worrying about mere annoyance: User agents should not provide a public API to cause videos to be shown full-screen. A script, combined with a carefully crafted video file, could trick the user into thinking a system-modal dialog had been shown, and prompt the user for a password. There is also the danger of mere annoyance, with pages launching full-screen videos when links are clicked or pages navigated.) Should autoplay be removed as an attribute of audio and video, precisely to remove such annoyance from people who rely on aural browsing? While there are video sites such as youTube that do play videos automatically, others such as vimeo don't. Is there an archive that lists the use-cases for autoplay and contrasts it with the annoyance and accessibility issues?. (see http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/accessibility-of-html5-video-and-audio-elements/) -- Bruce Lawson Web Evangelist www.opera.com (work) www.brucelawson.co.uk (personal)
Re: [whatwg] Spec should require UAs to have control to mute/ pause audio/ video
Bruce Lawson wrote: This may already be in the spec, but I couldn't find it. I think the spec should explicity require UAs to provide a mehanism to mute audio and to pause video, even if the controls attribute is not set. This would not make sense in some situations e.g. for a UA designed to play in-store video adverts (which I hate by the way :) ). In general the spec does not and should not mandate or constrain UI, although it does sometimes make suggestions (in general I am rather against this because the people that are good at writing technical specifications are rarely the same people who are good at designing UI, so such suggestions are often not that great. And UI is an area in which browsers should be allowed to compete).
