[Wicket-user] links about wicket scalability...
Hi all, A collegue of mine at a very big and slow organization is evaluating web frameworks, of which one is wicket. As expected, there is the remark that wicket is not scalable because of its use of session scope. I already gave the most important arguments, but it would be nice to have some good links for backing these arguments. In paticular, the link where (I think it was Eelco) mentioned that in a number of comparisons between web frameworks it was shown that wicket actually stores less in the session than other frameworks. This is a really strong argument, especially when backed up by real data. Nevertheless, I couldn't find this information anymore. Are there links to the applications (downloadable) proving this point? Cheers Erik - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] links about wicket scalability...
(Breaking my week-long self-inflicted moratorium) Erik, I am very interested in your other arguments that would interest big slow companies. Regards, Erik. Erik Brakkee schreef: Hi all, A collegue of mine at a very big and slow organization is evaluating web frameworks, of which one is wicket. As expected, there is the remark that wicket is not scalable because of its use of session scope. I already gave the most important arguments, but it would be nice to have some good links for backing these arguments. In paticular, the link where (I think it was Eelco) mentioned that in a number of comparisons between web frameworks it was shown that wicket actually stores less in the session than other frameworks. This is a really strong argument, especially when backed up by real data. Nevertheless, I couldn't find this information anymore. Are there links to the applications (downloadable) proving this point? Cheers Erik -- Erik van Oosten http://www.day-to-day-stuff.blogspot.com/ - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] links about wicket scalability...
Ok, and don't forget the robustness. I really haven't seen any weird or unexpected behavior or wicket at all. On 9/26/06, Erik Brakkee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/26/06, Erik van Oosten [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Erik,Let me rephrase the question:What arguments did you use, that would interest big slow companies inadopting Wicket? Ok, I was not giving arguments for using wicket but was more trying to help someone else fight the scalability criticism on wicket. When it comes to arguments for using wicket, I would say: very small learning curve natural programming paradigm familiar to developers limited knowledge required of web technologies (HTML, _javascript_) and still do advanced stuff in a fraction of the time it takes you with other frameworks (just consider e.g. something as tabs and paging). excellent feedback messages of the framework when something goes wrong Regards, Erik.PS. Too many Eriks in The Netherlands :) --net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/li Erik van Oosten http://www.day-to-day-stuff .blogspot.com/ - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] links about wicket scalability...
The first argument was that not every application needs to scale to thousands of concurrent users. The second argument is that active replication is only one strategy for clustering. In practise, server affinity is also a very good option. Perhaps another argument, that I did not mention yet, is that the next version of wicket will also provide other ways for storing session state. But, in my experience, always leave out the weak arguments (everyone knows the next version will solve all the problems, but if it doesn't exist). If there is one weak argument, people tend to attack that and the other strong arguments get forgotten. Cheers ErikOn 9/26/06, Erik van Oosten [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (Breaking my week-long self-inflicted moratorium)Erik, I am very interested in your other arguments that would interestbig slow companies.Regards, Erik.Erik Brakkee schreef: Hi all, A collegue of mine at a very big and slow organization is evaluating web frameworks, of which one is wicket. As expected, there is the remark that wicket is not scalable because of its use of session scope. I already gave the most important arguments, but it would be nice to have some good links for backing these arguments. In paticular, the link where (I think it was Eelco) mentioned that in a number of comparisons between web frameworks it was shown that wicket actually stores less in the session than other frameworks. This is a really strong argument, especially when backed up by real data. Nevertheless, I couldn't find this information anymore. Are there links to the applications (downloadable) proving this point? Cheers Erik--Erik van Oosten http://www.day-to-day-stuff.blogspot.com/-Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of ITJoin SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cashhttp://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV ___Wicket-user mailing listWicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] links about wicket scalability...
Or this one? http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t70272.html Erik. - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] links about wicket scalability...
Hi Erik, Let me rephrase the question: What arguments did you use, that would interest big slow companies in adopting Wicket? Regards, Erik. PS. Too many Eriks in The Netherlands :) -- Erik van Oosten http://www.day-to-day-stuff.blogspot.com/ - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] links about wicket scalability...
On 9/26/06, Erik van Oosten [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or this one?http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t70272.htmlErik. Yes that was it! Thanks! - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] links about wicket scalability...
Erik,did you search this link?http://www.virtuas.com/articles/webframework-sweetspots.html -Dirk2006/9/26, Erik Brakkee [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi all, A collegue of mine at a very big and slow organization is evaluating web frameworks, of which one is wicket. As expected, there is the remark that wicket is not scalable because of its use of session scope. I already gave the most important arguments, but it would be nice to have some good links for backing these arguments. In paticular, the link where (I think it was Eelco) mentioned that in a number of comparisons between web frameworks it was shown that wicket actually stores less in the session than other frameworks. This is a really strong argument, especially when backed up by real data. Nevertheless, I couldn't find this information anymore. Are there links to the applications (downloadable) proving this point? Cheers Erik -Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of ITJoin SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV___Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] links about wicket scalability...
Not anything downloadable I'm afraid. But here is my current brain dump on the matter. The most important question: what are your scalability needs? If you are creating a public facing web site with possibly *very* large fluctuations in user behavior, your scalability needs are way more important than with intranet applications. The latter kind of application typically don't have the enormous peaks and variety of usage. So even if they have tens of thousands of users (like the application that I'm currently working on will have), the load will be pretty predictable, and is something that can be planned for. Presuming scalability is an important concern, where do you expect the bottlenecks to happen? In my experience, the database/ back-end typically starts crumbling way before the web tier. And if you use a clustered environment with sticky sessions, the web tier most likely will never be a real concern. Now, if you defined the web tier as a likely bottleneck, and your scalability requirements are such that you probably have to work with a big cluster etc, it's time to talk business. Learn about the pitfalls of the frameworks you are considering and evaluate that with your situation. But now my remark about that Wicket might actually uses less server side memory than some other framework... that was primarily directed to web MVC frameworks like Struts, WW, Spring MVC, etc. Unfortunately still the leading paradigm it seems. A big pitfall for web MVC frameworks is that it is hard to program complex UIs in them. Things like wizards, multiple levels of tabs, page-able lists, search panels with detail screens etc, are very hard to do without a stateful model. So what typically happens is that programmers use session memory to store 'temporary' data, like the selected tab, the previous search command, the page of the page-able list etc. I quoted 'tempory' as that stuff typically don't gets cleaned up properly - the primary reason why an MVC based application Johan profiled some time ago actually used much more session memory than a comparable Wicket application. Worse, such ad-hoc usage is unpredictable and hard to tweak in a clustered environment. Even if you had an MVC and a Wicket application that would use exactly the same amount of memory, the Wicket application will very likely put less strain on the cluster as - due the fact that Wicket controls what goes in and out of the actual session/ cluster - Wicket will try to optimize and take care to only update when it is really needed. Alternatively, you could force your programmers to never use the session for things like that. It *is* possible to achieve the same by passing request parameters everywhere. However, for complex UIs you'll soon be bogged down by an incomprehensible stack of spaghetti. You might get into the problem that your get requests are getting too long. And using request parameters is a potential security concern. But most importantly, you have to 'flat down' everything you could otherwise componentize to a page level, and every little refactoring will be tedious, and you probably will have lots of code duplication. For anyone that actually build a couple of non-trivial web applications with MVC frameworks like Struts, I'm not telling a new story here. My point of this whole section is that even though MCV frameworks potentially scale better, changes are that in practice they don't. Not for anything moderately complex. And the prize to pay for this warm fuzzy feeling that you theoretically scale better can be pretty big. Eelco - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] links about wicket scalability...
Perhaps another argument, that I did not mention yet, is that the next version of wicket will also provide other ways for storing session state. That exists today/ for 2.0 and 1.2 actually. Session represents the session state, but ISessionStore hides where the information is actually stored. You don't have to use an HttpSession, but can use a database, file system or whatever you want with Wicket 1.2 too. In Wicket 2.0, Johan has an optimized version of ISessionStore that uses HttpSession for only the current page, and dumps older pages to the file store as a kind of second level cache for back button support. Also new in 2.0, is that we implemented deferred session creation. As long as you work with stateless pages, only a volatile session (for the span of a request) will be created. Thus, if your store uses HttpSession, no actual session would be created as long stateless pages are accessed. Certainly for public facing (parts of) sites, this means a lot for scalability. But, in my experience, always leave out the weak arguments (everyone knows the next version will solve all the problems, but if it doesn't exist). The next version is not a theoretical exercise though. We've been working on Wicket 2.0 for months now, and even though the constructor change was quite drastic, it's not a complete rewrite or new framework. It is accessible in SVN now for anyone to check out, and all the scalability goodies we scheduled are implemented (deferred sessions, stateless pages including support for forms and links). Also, Wicket In Action (scheduled for completion the end of this year) is about 2.0 too so we *are* planning to work to a final release within the next six months. Eelco - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] links about wicket scalability...
On 9/26/06, Eelco Hillenius [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps another argument, that I did not mention yet, is that the next version of wicket will also provide other ways for storing session state.That exists today/ for 2.0 and 1.2 actually. Ok, thanks for the clarification. But, in my experience, always leave out the weak arguments (everyone knows the next version will solve all the problems, but if it doesn't exist).The next version is not a theoretical exercise though. We've beenworking on Wicket 2.0 for months now, and even though the constructor change was quite drastic, it's not a complete rewrite or newframework. It is accessible in SVN now for anyone to check out, andall the scalability goodies we scheduled are implemented (deferredsessions, stateless pages including support for forms and links). Also, Wicket In Action (scheduled for completion the end of this year)is about 2.0 too so we *are* planning to work to a final releasewithin the next six months. When can we expect to see the first alpha and beta releases for 2.0 in the maven2 repository? This would be nice for use since then we could start using it already (I don't want to distribute the jars with my project). Eelco- Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of ITJoin SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share youropinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV___Wicket-user mailing listWicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] links about wicket scalability...
When can we expect to see the first alpha and beta releases for 2.0 in the maven2 repository? This would be nice for use since then we could start using it already (I don't want to distribute the jars with my project).http://maven.sateh.com/wicket/-Igor - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] links about wicket scalability...
Good question. I'll propose on the dev list. Eelco On 9/26/06, Erik Brakkee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/26/06, Eelco Hillenius [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps another argument, that I did not mention yet, is that the next version of wicket will also provide other ways for storing session state. That exists today/ for 2.0 and 1.2 actually. Ok, thanks for the clarification. But, in my experience, always leave out the weak arguments (everyone knows the next version will solve all the problems, but if it doesn't exist). The next version is not a theoretical exercise though. We've been working on Wicket 2.0 for months now, and even though the constructor change was quite drastic, it's not a complete rewrite or new framework. It is accessible in SVN now for anyone to check out, and all the scalability goodies we scheduled are implemented (deferred sessions, stateless pages including support for forms and links). Also, Wicket In Action (scheduled for completion the end of this year) is about 2.0 too so we *are* planning to work to a final release within the next six months. When can we expect to see the first alpha and beta releases for 2.0 in the maven2 repository? This would be nice for use since then we could start using it already (I don't want to distribute the jars with my project). Eelco - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] links about wicket scalability...
Ah, yeah. We have the snapshots to start with. Eelco On 9/26/06, Igor Vaynberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When can we expect to see the first alpha and beta releases for 2.0 in the maven2 repository? This would be nice for use since then we could start using it already (I don't want to distribute the jars with my project). http://maven.sateh.com/wicket/ -Igor - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.phpp=sourceforgeCID=DEVDEV ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
