Re: [Wikidata] Dead or alive ? Probably dead

[Fabrizio Carrai]

The use of "unknown" for the date of death in "probably dead persons" is
pretty diffused. According to this query

it is used in 5861 humans.
It would be interesting to know how many records would need to be updated
(i.e. known date of birth, no date of death, age > 122 years), but I got a
timeout.

FabC

Il giorno ven 20 set 2019 alle ore 17:59 Thomas Douillard <
thomas.douill...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

> We have also other properties on Wikidata to refine partial knowledge
> about the chronology of a life :
> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1317 – floruit
> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P2032 /
> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P2031 — floruit begin and end
> that may overlap with https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1319
> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1326
>
> I found myself sometimes using a century precision date for somebody we
> don’t really have information about the date of death but know it lived on
> some century.
>
>
> Le ven. 20 sept. 2019 à 00:25, Olaf Simons 
> a écrit :
>
>> On FactGrid we created two properties for this (maybe clever, maybe
>> daft): P290 and P291 for estimates (or for knowledge) of an earliest and
>> latest point in the life span. The necessity is here that we have loads of
>> people with just a single data point like "studied in Jena in 1776" or
>> "appeared on a list of voters in 1849". If that is all you know, you do
>> actually know that the person is likely to have a birth date some 17 (or in
>> the voters case at least 21) years before.
>>
>> If a person is only once mentioned as retired that stretches the P290
>> date to some 60 years before and so on - you qualify the estimate
>> accordingly.
>>
>> I have no idea whether this is a good move on our site since we are not
>> really that advanced in running the more intriguing SPARQL searches.
>>
>> Olaf
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Fabrizio Carrai  hat am 19. September 2019
>> um 22:13 geschrieben:
>> >
>> >
>> > So, the question is if it would be fine and ethic to set the "Date of
>> > death" to "unknown" on the base of an old date of birth.
>> > And about the biography of living persons, I found this [1]
>> >
>> > Deceased persons, corporations, or groups of personsRecently dead or
>> > probably dead
>> > Anyone born within the past 115 years (on or after 19 September 1904) is
>> > covered by this policy unless a reliable source has confirmed their
>> death.
>> > Generally, this policy does not apply to material concerning people who
>> are
>> > confirmed dead by reliable sources. The only exception would be for
>> people
>> > who have recently died, in which case the policy can extend for an
>> > indeterminate period beyond the date of death—six months, one year, two
>> > years at the outside. Such extensions would apply particularly to
>> > contentious or questionable material about the dead that has
>> implications
>> > for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a
>> possible
>> > suicide or a particularly gruesome crime. *Even absent confirmation of
>> > death, for the purposes of this policy anyone born more than 115 years
>> ago
>> > is presumed dead* *unless* reliable sources confirm the person to have
>> been
>> > living within the past two years. If the date of birth is unknown,
>> editors
>> > should use reasonable judgement to infer—from dates of events noted in
>> the
>> > article—if it is plausible that the person was born within the last 115
>> > years and is therefore covered by this policy.
>> >
>> > This would support the set of "Date of death" to "unknown" on the base
>> of
>> > the "Date of birth". It remains hard to verify typo errors, but we are
>> > doing our best to verify the data of the several wikiprojects.
>> >
>> > The property set would become effective if done in mass by a bot or
>> similar.
>> >
>> > By the way, I would extend be period to 122 years [2]
>> >
>> > FabC
>> >
>> > [1]
>> >
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Deceased_persons,_corporations,_or_groups_of_persons
>> > [2] 

Re: [Wikidata] Dead or alive ? Probably dead

[Thomas Douillard]

We have also other properties on Wikidata to refine partial knowledge about
the chronology of a life :
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1317 – floruit
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P2032 /
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P2031 — floruit begin and end
that may overlap with https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1319
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1326

I found myself sometimes using a century precision date for somebody we
don’t really have information about the date of death but know it lived on
some century.


Le ven. 20 sept. 2019 à 00:25, Olaf Simons 
a écrit :

> On FactGrid we created two properties for this (maybe clever, maybe daft):
> P290 and P291 for estimates (or for knowledge) of an earliest and latest
> point in the life span. The necessity is here that we have loads of people
> with just a single data point like "studied in Jena in 1776" or "appeared
> on a list of voters in 1849". If that is all you know, you do actually know
> that the person is likely to have a birth date some 17 (or in the voters
> case at least 21) years before.
>
> If a person is only once mentioned as retired that stretches the P290 date
> to some 60 years before and so on - you qualify the estimate accordingly.
>
> I have no idea whether this is a good move on our site since we are not
> really that advanced in running the more intriguing SPARQL searches.
>
> Olaf
>
>
>
>
> > Fabrizio Carrai  hat am 19. September 2019
> um 22:13 geschrieben:
> >
> >
> > So, the question is if it would be fine and ethic to set the "Date of
> > death" to "unknown" on the base of an old date of birth.
> > And about the biography of living persons, I found this [1]
> >
> > Deceased persons, corporations, or groups of personsRecently dead or
> > probably dead
> > Anyone born within the past 115 years (on or after 19 September 1904) is
> > covered by this policy unless a reliable source has confirmed their
> death.
> > Generally, this policy does not apply to material concerning people who
> are
> > confirmed dead by reliable sources. The only exception would be for
> people
> > who have recently died, in which case the policy can extend for an
> > indeterminate period beyond the date of death—six months, one year, two
> > years at the outside. Such extensions would apply particularly to
> > contentious or questionable material about the dead that has implications
> > for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible
> > suicide or a particularly gruesome crime. *Even absent confirmation of
> > death, for the purposes of this policy anyone born more than 115 years
> ago
> > is presumed dead* *unless* reliable sources confirm the person to have
> been
> > living within the past two years. If the date of birth is unknown,
> editors
> > should use reasonable judgement to infer—from dates of events noted in
> the
> > article—if it is plausible that the person was born within the last 115
> > years and is therefore covered by this policy.
> >
> > This would support the set of "Date of death" to "unknown" on the base of
> > the "Date of birth". It remains hard to verify typo errors, but we are
> > doing our best to verify the data of the several wikiprojects.
> >
> > The property set would become effective if done in mass by a bot or
> similar.
> >
> > By the way, I would extend be period to 122 years [2]
> >
> > FabC
> >
> > [1]
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Deceased_persons,_corporations,_or_groups_of_persons
> > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_people
> >
> > Il giorno gio 19 set 2019 alle ore 21:29 Andy Mabbett <
> > a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk> ha scritto:
> >
> > > On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 07:53, Fabrizio Carrai <
> fabrizio.car...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I found athletes with the "Date of born" but with NO "date of death".
> > > > So a query on the age show me athletes up to 149 years old.
> > > > Since the oldest know person was 122, what about to set "date of
> > > > death = unknown value" for all the persons resulting older such age ?
> > >
> > > Yes, but check that the date of birth isn't a typo (i.e. 1875 instead
> > > of 1975; or 1894 instead of 1984).
> > >
> > > Showing a living person as being dead would be a serious breach of the
> > > BLP policy.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andy Mabbett
> > > @pigsonthewing
> > > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikidata mailing list
> > > Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Fabrizio*
> > ___
> > Wikidata mailing list
> > Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
>
> Dr. Olaf Simons
> Forschungszentrum Gotha der Universität Erfurt
> Schloss Friedenstein, Pagenhaus
> 99867 Gotha
>
> Büro: +49-361-737-1722
> Mobil: +49-179-5196880
>
> Privat: Hauptmarkt 17b/ 

Re: [Wikidata] Dead or alive ? Probably dead

[Denny Vrandečić]

I think if we wanted to do this with a bot, we should go through the usual
bot approval process, and discuss this on wiki?

But in general, as said, adding unknown value to people who are very very
sure to be dead sounds like a good idea (
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q28 )

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 3:25 PM Olaf Simons 
wrote:

> On FactGrid we created two properties for this (maybe clever, maybe daft):
> P290 and P291 for estimates (or for knowledge) of an earliest and latest
> point in the life span. The necessity is here that we have loads of people
> with just a single data point like "studied in Jena in 1776" or "appeared
> on a list of voters in 1849". If that is all you know, you do actually know
> that the person is likely to have a birth date some 17 (or in the voters
> case at least 21) years before.
>
> If a person is only once mentioned as retired that stretches the P290 date
> to some 60 years before and so on - you qualify the estimate accordingly.
>
> I have no idea whether this is a good move on our site since we are not
> really that advanced in running the more intriguing SPARQL searches.
>
> Olaf
>
>
>
>
> > Fabrizio Carrai  hat am 19. September 2019
> um 22:13 geschrieben:
> >
> >
> > So, the question is if it would be fine and ethic to set the "Date of
> > death" to "unknown" on the base of an old date of birth.
> > And about the biography of living persons, I found this [1]
> >
> > Deceased persons, corporations, or groups of personsRecently dead or
> > probably dead
> > Anyone born within the past 115 years (on or after 19 September 1904) is
> > covered by this policy unless a reliable source has confirmed their
> death.
> > Generally, this policy does not apply to material concerning people who
> are
> > confirmed dead by reliable sources. The only exception would be for
> people
> > who have recently died, in which case the policy can extend for an
> > indeterminate period beyond the date of death—six months, one year, two
> > years at the outside. Such extensions would apply particularly to
> > contentious or questionable material about the dead that has implications
> > for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible
> > suicide or a particularly gruesome crime. *Even absent confirmation of
> > death, for the purposes of this policy anyone born more than 115 years
> ago
> > is presumed dead* *unless* reliable sources confirm the person to have
> been
> > living within the past two years. If the date of birth is unknown,
> editors
> > should use reasonable judgement to infer—from dates of events noted in
> the
> > article—if it is plausible that the person was born within the last 115
> > years and is therefore covered by this policy.
> >
> > This would support the set of "Date of death" to "unknown" on the base of
> > the "Date of birth". It remains hard to verify typo errors, but we are
> > doing our best to verify the data of the several wikiprojects.
> >
> > The property set would become effective if done in mass by a bot or
> similar.
> >
> > By the way, I would extend be period to 122 years [2]
> >
> > FabC
> >
> > [1]
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Deceased_persons,_corporations,_or_groups_of_persons
> > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_people
> >
> > Il giorno gio 19 set 2019 alle ore 21:29 Andy Mabbett <
> > a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk> ha scritto:
> >
> > > On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 07:53, Fabrizio Carrai <
> fabrizio.car...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I found athletes with the "Date of born" but with NO "date of death".
> > > > So a query on the age show me athletes up to 149 years old.
> > > > Since the oldest know person was 122, what about to set "date of
> > > > death = unknown value" for all the persons resulting older such age ?
> > >
> > > Yes, but check that the date of birth isn't a typo (i.e. 1875 instead
> > > of 1975; or 1894 instead of 1984).
> > >
> > > Showing a living person as being dead would be a serious breach of the
> > > BLP policy.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andy Mabbett
> > > @pigsonthewing
> > > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikidata mailing list
> > > Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Fabrizio*
> > ___
> > Wikidata mailing list
> > Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
>
> Dr. Olaf Simons
> Forschungszentrum Gotha der Universität Erfurt
> Schloss Friedenstein, Pagenhaus
> 99867 Gotha
>
> Büro: +49-361-737-1722 <+49%20361%207371722>
> Mobil: +49-179-5196880 <+49%20179%205196880>
>
> Privat: Hauptmarkt 17b/ 99867 Gotha
>
> ___
> Wikidata mailing list
> Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
>
___

Re: [Wikidata] Dead or alive ? Probably dead

[Olaf Simons]

On FactGrid we created two properties for this (maybe clever, maybe daft): P290 
and P291 for estimates (or for knowledge) of an earliest and latest point in 
the life span. The necessity is here that we have loads of people with just a 
single data point like "studied in Jena in 1776" or "appeared on a list of 
voters in 1849". If that is all you know, you do actually know that the person 
is likely to have a birth date some 17 (or in the voters case at least 21) 
years before.

If a person is only once mentioned as retired that stretches the P290 date to 
some 60 years before and so on - you qualify the estimate accordingly.

I have no idea whether this is a good move on our site since we are not really 
that advanced in running the more intriguing SPARQL searches.

Olaf




> Fabrizio Carrai  hat am 19. September 2019 um 
> 22:13 geschrieben:
> 
> 
> So, the question is if it would be fine and ethic to set the "Date of
> death" to "unknown" on the base of an old date of birth.
> And about the biography of living persons, I found this [1]
> 
> Deceased persons, corporations, or groups of personsRecently dead or
> probably dead
> Anyone born within the past 115 years (on or after 19 September 1904) is
> covered by this policy unless a reliable source has confirmed their death.
> Generally, this policy does not apply to material concerning people who are
> confirmed dead by reliable sources. The only exception would be for people
> who have recently died, in which case the policy can extend for an
> indeterminate period beyond the date of death—six months, one year, two
> years at the outside. Such extensions would apply particularly to
> contentious or questionable material about the dead that has implications
> for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible
> suicide or a particularly gruesome crime. *Even absent confirmation of
> death, for the purposes of this policy anyone born more than 115 years ago
> is presumed dead* *unless* reliable sources confirm the person to have been
> living within the past two years. If the date of birth is unknown, editors
> should use reasonable judgement to infer—from dates of events noted in the
> article—if it is plausible that the person was born within the last 115
> years and is therefore covered by this policy.
> 
> This would support the set of "Date of death" to "unknown" on the base of
> the "Date of birth". It remains hard to verify typo errors, but we are
> doing our best to verify the data of the several wikiprojects.
> 
> The property set would become effective if done in mass by a bot or similar.
> 
> By the way, I would extend be period to 122 years [2]
> 
> FabC
> 
> [1]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Deceased_persons,_corporations,_or_groups_of_persons
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_people
> 
> Il giorno gio 19 set 2019 alle ore 21:29 Andy Mabbett <
> a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk> ha scritto:
> 
> > On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 07:53, Fabrizio Carrai 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I found athletes with the "Date of born" but with NO "date of death".
> > > So a query on the age show me athletes up to 149 years old.
> > > Since the oldest know person was 122, what about to set "date of
> > > death = unknown value" for all the persons resulting older such age ?
> >
> > Yes, but check that the date of birth isn't a typo (i.e. 1875 instead
> > of 1975; or 1894 instead of 1984).
> >
> > Showing a living person as being dead would be a serious breach of the
> > BLP policy.
> >
> > --
> > Andy Mabbett
> > @pigsonthewing
> > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> >
> > ___
> > Wikidata mailing list
> > Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> *Fabrizio*
> ___
> Wikidata mailing list
> Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

Dr. Olaf Simons
Forschungszentrum Gotha der Universität Erfurt
Schloss Friedenstein, Pagenhaus
99867 Gotha

Büro: +49-361-737-1722
Mobil: +49-179-5196880

Privat: Hauptmarkt 17b/ 99867 Gotha

___
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Re: [Wikidata] Dead or alive ? Probably dead

[Andy Mabbett]

On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 21:13, Fabrizio Carrai  wrote:

> It remains hard to verify typo errors, but we are doing our best to
> verify the data of the several wikiprojects.

One could always look at the source(s) cited for the DoB.

> [1] 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Deceased_persons,_corporations,_or_groups_of_persons
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_people

Wikidata's policy (which contains text based on [1]) is:

   https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Living_people

The WMF's over-arching policy is:

   https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Resolution:Biographies_of_living_people


--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikidata] Dead or alive ? Probably dead

[Fabrizio Carrai]

So, the question is if it would be fine and ethic to set the "Date of
death" to "unknown" on the base of an old date of birth.
And about the biography of living persons, I found this [1]

Deceased persons, corporations, or groups of personsRecently dead or
probably dead
Anyone born within the past 115 years (on or after 19 September 1904) is
covered by this policy unless a reliable source has confirmed their death.
Generally, this policy does not apply to material concerning people who are
confirmed dead by reliable sources. The only exception would be for people
who have recently died, in which case the policy can extend for an
indeterminate period beyond the date of death—six months, one year, two
years at the outside. Such extensions would apply particularly to
contentious or questionable material about the dead that has implications
for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible
suicide or a particularly gruesome crime. *Even absent confirmation of
death, for the purposes of this policy anyone born more than 115 years ago
is presumed dead* *unless* reliable sources confirm the person to have been
living within the past two years. If the date of birth is unknown, editors
should use reasonable judgement to infer—from dates of events noted in the
article—if it is plausible that the person was born within the last 115
years and is therefore covered by this policy.

This would support the set of "Date of death" to "unknown" on the base of
the "Date of birth". It remains hard to verify typo errors, but we are
doing our best to verify the data of the several wikiprojects.

The property set would become effective if done in mass by a bot or similar.

By the way, I would extend be period to 122 years [2]

FabC

[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Deceased_persons,_corporations,_or_groups_of_persons
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_people

Il giorno gio 19 set 2019 alle ore 21:29 Andy Mabbett <
a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk> ha scritto:

> On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 07:53, Fabrizio Carrai 
> wrote:
>
> > I found athletes with the "Date of born" but with NO "date of death".
> > So a query on the age show me athletes up to 149 years old.
> > Since the oldest know person was 122, what about to set "date of
> > death = unknown value" for all the persons resulting older such age ?
>
> Yes, but check that the date of birth isn't a typo (i.e. 1875 instead
> of 1975; or 1894 instead of 1984).
>
> Showing a living person as being dead would be a serious breach of the
> BLP policy.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> ___
> Wikidata mailing list
> Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
>


-- 
*Fabrizio*
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Re: [Wikidata] Dead or alive ? Probably dead

[Andy Mabbett]

On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 07:53, Fabrizio Carrai  wrote:

> I found athletes with the "Date of born" but with NO "date of death".
> So a query on the age show me athletes up to 149 years old.
> Since the oldest know person was 122, what about to set "date of
> death = unknown value" for all the persons resulting older such age ?

Yes, but check that the date of birth isn't a typo (i.e. 1875 instead
of 1975; or 1894 instead of 1984).

Showing a living person as being dead would be a serious breach of the
BLP policy.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

___
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Re: [Wikidata] Dead or alive ? Probably dead

[Denny Vrandečić]

"unknown value" was made for exactly that use case - a person that has
died, but we don't know when.

I would just add that on the "date of death" property.

On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 2:25 AM Thomas Douillard 
wrote:

> We have already a qualifier for this kind of stuffs, I think : P887
>  this is a bit of a corner
> case because it’s not the value that is computed here but the existence of
> a value, but I think it will do. We just need an item for this, something
> such as « most likely dead because born long before » should do the trick.
>
> Le sam. 7 sept. 2019 à 09:14, Federico Leva (Nemo)  a
> écrit :
>
>> Fabrizio Carrai, 07/09/19 09:53:
>> > Since the oldest know person was 122, what about to set "date of death
>> =
>> > unknown value" for all the persons resulting older such age ?
>>
>> It seems to me a sensible thing to do. It's good you asked because it's
>> better to avoid the risk of conflicting mass changes.
>>
>> I wounder if we need a qualifier to allow identifying this as an
>> inferred piece of data: do people sometimes state "unknown value" when
>> someone is known to be dead, but we don't know when they did? I would
>> place a date of death with a precision of a decade or century in such a
>> case, but I've not checked what's the frequency of such qualifiers yet.
>>
>> Federico
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
>>
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>
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Re: [Wikidata] Dead or alive ? Probably dead

[Thomas Douillard]

We have already a qualifier for this kind of stuffs, I think : P887
 this is a bit of a corner
case because it’s not the value that is computed here but the existence of
a value, but I think it will do. We just need an item for this, something
such as « most likely dead because born long before » should do the trick.

Le sam. 7 sept. 2019 à 09:14, Federico Leva (Nemo)  a
écrit :

> Fabrizio Carrai, 07/09/19 09:53:
> > Since the oldest know person was 122, what about to set "date of death =
> > unknown value" for all the persons resulting older such age ?
>
> It seems to me a sensible thing to do. It's good you asked because it's
> better to avoid the risk of conflicting mass changes.
>
> I wounder if we need a qualifier to allow identifying this as an
> inferred piece of data: do people sometimes state "unknown value" when
> someone is known to be dead, but we don't know when they did? I would
> place a date of death with a precision of a decade or century in such a
> case, but I've not checked what's the frequency of such qualifiers yet.
>
> Federico
>
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Re: [Wikidata] Dead or alive ? Probably dead

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Fabrizio Carrai, 07/09/19 09:53:
Since the oldest know person was 122, what about to set "date of death = 
unknown value" for all the persons resulting older such age ?


It seems to me a sensible thing to do. It's good you asked because it's 
better to avoid the risk of conflicting mass changes.


I wounder if we need a qualifier to allow identifying this as an 
inferred piece of data: do people sometimes state "unknown value" when 
someone is known to be dead, but we don't know when they did? I would 
place a date of death with a precision of a decade or century in such a 
case, but I've not checked what's the frequency of such qualifiers yet.


Federico

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