Re: [Wikidata-l] rank related changes
Hoi, So how do I indicate that up to a particular date Jakarta was called Batavia ? Muhammed Ali was called Cassius Clay ? There is no discussion about it. All there is an (potentially perceived) inability to use appropriate labels at will. Labels are not simple. Thanks, Gerard On 6 March 2014 17:07, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 06.03.2014 16:27, schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, I hope this will be revisited. Many items change there name and dependent on a date they or it are called differently. If the name is something that is changed, debated, or otherwise a subject of discussion, create a statement using an appropriate property. The point of having labels is precisely that they are simple. -- daniel -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] rank related changes
Hoi, When data is to be shown in the context of history, the appropriate label is to be shown, is to be found. It is as complex as what we do with statements. The point is very much that when you state that when labels are not intended to convey complex information, the intention is debatable. It is arguably wrong. Thanks, GerardM On 6 March 2014 17:15, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 06.03.2014 17:12, schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, So how do I indicate that up to a particular date Jakarta was called Batavia ? Muhammed Ali was called Cassius Clay ? There is no discussion about it. All there is an (potentially perceived) inability to use appropriate labels at will. Create a property for official name and make staements. Labels are there for display and search. They are not intended to convey complex information. -- daniel -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] rank related changes
If you want to model everything precisely, you'll never get done. If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, Infinite. -- William Blake Am 06.03.2014 17:21, schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, When data is to be shown in the context of history, the appropriate label is to be shown, is to be found. It is as complex as what we do with statements. The point is very much that when you state that when labels are not intended to convey complex information, the intention is debatable. It is arguably wrong. Thanks, GerardM On 6 March 2014 17:15, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de mailto:daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 06.03.2014 17:12, schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, So how do I indicate that up to a particular date Jakarta was called Batavia ? Muhammed Ali was called Cassius Clay ? There is no discussion about it. All there is an (potentially perceived) inability to use appropriate labels at will. Create a property for official name and make staements. Labels are there for display and search. They are not intended to convey complex information. -- daniel -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] rank related changes
It's OK if we have a way to represent the information in another way. Reasonator plays kind of fine with this, it's enough to make him aware of the official name to treat it differently. The name to display is a contextful information, and anyway it needs special ways to treat the information and select the context and the data to display, so it''s not really a problem. 2014-03-06 17:21 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, When data is to be shown in the context of history, the appropriate label is to be shown, is to be found. It is as complex as what we do with statements. The point is very much that when you state that when labels are not intended to convey complex information, the intention is debatable. It is arguably wrong. Thanks, GerardM On 6 March 2014 17:15, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 06.03.2014 17:12, schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, So how do I indicate that up to a particular date Jakarta was called Batavia ? Muhammed Ali was called Cassius Clay ? There is no discussion about it. All there is an (potentially perceived) inability to use appropriate labels at will. Create a property for official name and make staements. Labels are there for display and search. They are not intended to convey complex information. -- daniel -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
[Wikidata-l] Wikibase for a private wiki
Hi there, I'm setting up a private wiki and I'd like to add Wikibase. Does it work with Mediawiki 1.22? And where can I download the whole package? Since I know this is not the place for such a private discussion, if you want to advice me, please answer me in private, so that we don't disturb the others. :) Cheers, L. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikibase for a private wiki
Hi there, I'm setting up a private wiki and I'd like to add Wikibase. Does it work with Mediawiki 1.22? And where can I download the whole package? Since I know this is not the place for such a private discussion, if you want to advice me, please answer me in private, so that we don't disturb the others. :) Cheers, L. Hi, from https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Wikibase where you can also find other useful information I can say you that Wikibase depends on MediaWiki 1.23.0 or higher. The reason is that it uses some features of MediaWiki which have only be introduced in the latest version. I hope this helps you. Best regards, Bene ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Queries - can they be stored as statements in Category/List items?
Hi Lydia, in languages such as OWL, a class of item can be defined by a predicate on the properties and values of the item. Will we be able to link a class Qitem to a Wikidata complex query in the corresponding namespace ? For example if we define a class Douglas Adams Novels whose instances are the members of the example query you gave ? 2014-03-06 19:24 GMT+01:00 Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de: On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com wrote: I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_both_%22Wikimedia_lists%22_and_%22Wikimedia_categories%22 It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference between a list, a category, and a query? Not much, really. I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the same as the WDQ http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?q=6573995 Items like List of... or Category: would have some use, but the development notes don't state if this is the intended path https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries Any thoughts about it? I've been trying to understand the RfC 3 times now and still fail. So I can't answer your questions unfortunately. The short and simplified version of how complex queries will work: * someone defines a query on a page in a special query namespace (eg everything that has author = Douglas Adams) * the result of the query is a list of items matching the query * the Wikipedias can include the result of the query and visualize it in certain ways on a page. (eg the wikitext of the article List of works by Douglas Adams would have a call to include the query result from Wikidata) Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Queries - can they be stored as statements in Category/List items?
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 8:32 PM, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Lydia, in languages such as OWL, a class of item can be defined by a predicate on the properties and values of the item. Will we be able to link a class Qitem to a Wikidata complex query in the corresponding namespace ? For example if we define a class Douglas Adams Novels whose instances are the members of the example query you gave ? I can imagine a statement you can make on the item linking to the query. This would work in a similar way that you can now link to other items. But I'm not sure I see the reason beyond because we can yet. Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Queries - can they be stored as statements in Category/List items?
I'm not saying that the results yielded by Category:Books by Jean-Paul Sartre or Category:Books by J.R.R. Tolkien are or should be the same as the result yielded by a corresponding Wikidata query, but the concepts they represent, they are the same. Ditto for lists. (As a further clarification, I didn't mention anything about changing Wikipedia categories or Wikipedia lists either.) My question was regarding the functionality of WD items associated with Wikipedia categories and Wikipedia lists. Conceptually those items represent (or can represent) queries. WDQ, the tool by Magnus, already can interpret certain statements as queries [1]. Would it make sense to replicate that functionality on Wikidata? Cheers, Micru [1] http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?q=6573995 On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 11:16 PM, Denny Vrandečić vrande...@gmail.comwrote: But that's simply not the case. The Category:Books by Jean-Paul Sartre [1] or Category:Books by J.R.R. Tolkien [2} neither are a complete list of books by those authors (e.g. Sartre's fictional books are missing, Tolkien's non-fictional *and* Middle earth books are missing), nor are they only including books by Tolkien (e.g. they also include templates and other categories, which are likely not written by Sartre or Tolkien). If the plan is to change the way categories are used in Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia wikis, I'd say this is a very different goal, but should be discussed on those wikis. List-articles often contain much more love and care than a Wikidata query result will for a while. I don't think that replacing an article like the list of books by David Foster Wallace [3] the List of US Presidents [4] with a single simple query is a short-term goal. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_Jean-Paul_Sartre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_J._R._R._Tolkien [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_by_David_Foster_Wallace [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_Presidents On Thu Mar 06 2014 at 1:49:54 PM, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com wrote: The point I wanted to make (following your example), is that the Wikidata Query All novels by Douglas Adams is equivalent to the item Category:Novels by Douglas Adams [1]. In other cases there will be even 3 items representing the same information: the wd query, the category item, and a list of... item. So I'm just wondering if this complexity is really needed for structural/technical reasons. Maybe there is an easier way instead of linking to the wd query with a category's main query property? Cheers, Micru [1] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8687492 On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de wrote: On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com wrote: I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_both_%22Wikimedia_lists%22_and_%22Wikimedia_categories%22 It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference between a list, a category, and a query? Not much, really. I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the same as the WDQ http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?q=6573995 Items like List of... or Category: would have some use, but the development notes don't state if this is the intended path https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries Any thoughts about it? I've been trying to understand the RfC 3 times now and still fail. So I can't answer your questions unfortunately. The short and simplified version of how complex queries will work: * someone defines a query on a page in a special query namespace (eg everything that has author = Douglas Adams) * the result of the query is a list of items matching the query * the Wikipedias can include the result of the query and visualize it in certain ways on a page. (eg the wikitext of the article List of works by Douglas Adams would have a call to include the query result from Wikidata) Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l -- Etiamsi omnes, ego non ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list
Re: [Wikidata-l] Queries - can they be stored as statements in Category/List items?
Hoi, What the RFC is about is actually quite simple. It states that the content of most of the lists and categories can be expressed as queries. So when an item is an instance of Wikimedia list article or Wikimedia category page it can be complemented by an is a list of property. For examples, [1] and [2] The confusion is about something that turned up as a result; Wikipedia has lists where they expect Wikidata to treat them NOT as a list. Take for instance the info about Wikimedia Deutschland [3]. It is an instance of list of Wikimedia chapters. This is patent nonsense. Obviously it is a Wikimedia chapter. The discussion is about should we maintain that is a list in Wikipedia as a list and consequently apply the property is a Wikimedia list article or should we make it an instance of whatever is applicable. In this case the German chapter is an instance of Wikimedia chapter. All that it takes is having appropriate statements that reflect the function of the item. As far as I am concerned, we only need both the subclass and the list when at least one Wikipedia has both. Where the other lists should live? Probably on the lowest level ie not on the list. NB I do not consider what Wikidata will bring in query functionality. It does not exist so I consider what can be done now with WDQ. It escapes me why we need a special namespace for queries.I am however eager to learn more. Thanks, GerardM [1] http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?q=Q8860958 [2] http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?q=967762 [3] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8288 or with Reasonator .. http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?q=8288https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8288 On 6 March 2014 19:24, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de wrote: On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com wrote: I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_both_%22Wikimedia_lists%22_and_%22Wikimedia_categories%22 It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference between a list, a category, and a query? Not much, really. I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the same as the WDQ http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?q=6573995 Items like List of... or Category: would have some use, but the development notes don't state if this is the intended path https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries Any thoughts about it? I've been trying to understand the RfC 3 times now and still fail. So I can't answer your questions unfortunately. The short and simplified version of how complex queries will work: * someone defines a query on a page in a special query namespace (eg everything that has author = Douglas Adams) * the result of the query is a list of items matching the query * the Wikipedias can include the result of the query and visualize it in certain ways on a page. (eg the wikitext of the article List of works by Douglas Adams would have a call to include the query result from Wikidata) Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
