Re: [WikiEN-l] Biography of Living persons
2008/12/29 Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia) newyorkb...@gmail.com: See also my comments on the on-wiki discussion of semiprotecting BLPs and related issues, where I present a string of basic facts and assumptions that color my view of this and related matters. Flagged revs would solve many more problems than general protection would. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Biography of Living persons
2008/12/29 David Goodman dgoodma...@gmail.com: If we permit opt out, we will have a situation where we have, for all medium-level people who are somewhat less than famous, favorable bios only. There is no possible way to have both NPOV content and subjects owning the articles on themselves. Whatever way we solve the difficulties with BLP, it shouldn't be turning us into an publicity platform. Correct. Opt-out will violate NPOV. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Biography of Living persons
On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Scientia Potentia est bibliomaniac...@yahoo.com wrote: In the end, BLP is not one of our five pillars. The fact that we are an encyclopedia is. bibliomaniac15 And like anything on Wikipedia, subject to change. Who says we can't have Six Pillars? - Joe ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Biography of Living persons
On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:14 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: 2008/12/29 David Goodman dgoodma...@gmail.com: If we permit opt out, we will have a situation where we have, for all medium-level people who are somewhat less than famous, favorable bios only. There is no possible way to have both NPOV content and subjects owning the articles on themselves. Whatever way we solve the difficulties with BLP, it shouldn't be turning us into an publicity platform. Correct. Opt-out will violate NPOV. - d. I think opt-out more than flagged, more than semi, more than anything else would be fought to the death over by some extremists. But I don't know if it would violate NPOV. Is an absence a violation? - Joe ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Biography of Living persons
Its absence is not a violation provided we write biographies with tact as blp advises us to do. On 12/29/08, Joe Szilagyi szila...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:14 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: 2008/12/29 David Goodman dgoodma...@gmail.com: If we permit opt out, we will have a situation where we have, for all medium-level people who are somewhat less than famous, favorable bios only. There is no possible way to have both NPOV content and subjects owning the articles on themselves. Whatever way we solve the difficulties with BLP, it shouldn't be turning us into an publicity platform. Correct. Opt-out will violate NPOV. - d. I think opt-out more than flagged, more than semi, more than anything else would be fought to the death over by some extremists. But I don't know if it would violate NPOV. Is an absence a violation? - Joe ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Biography of Living persons
On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:42 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: 2008/12/29 Joe Szilagyi szila...@gmail.com: And like anything on Wikipedia, subject to change. Who says we can't have Six Pillars? I'm thinking now of the scene in Robocop 2 where they come up with 347 basic directives for Robocop. - d. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/ED-209 - Joe ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
If Verizon or whatever Incompetant Inc. ISP he uses is unlikely to do anything, why not just fix it from a technical end? Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse page. If the technical means to do this doesn't exist yet, why doesn't someone create it? - Joe ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Biography of Living persons
2008/12/29 Joe Szilagyi szila...@gmail.com: Correct. Opt-out will violate NPOV. I think opt-out more than flagged, more than semi, more than anything else would be fought to the death over by some extremists. But I don't know if it would violate NPOV. Is an absence a violation? Philosophically, it probably wouldn't violate NPOV. *Practically*, it might well - as was pointed out upthread, anyone who has on balance a negative article would be more likely to ask for it to be removed than anyone who has one which is on balance positive. In many ways, the most effective solution would be a hard-and-bright line like the DNB uses - no-one who is alive, end of story, and we could deal with living people as tangential notes in their work. But it certainly wouldn't be popular! I remember talk of ja.wp having a more hardline definition of notability, roughly defined as is a public figure, thus neatly eliding anyone who isn't Pretty Damn Famous - any idea if they still hold to that and if so how it works out? -- - Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Biography of Living persons
347 basic directives does resemble the question barrage in a lot of RFAs ;-) d. If you think the volume of questions on RfA is bad these days, try running for ArbCom. :) Newyorkbrad ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Biography of Living persons
Correct. Opt-out will violate NPOV. - d. Why? Newyorkbrad ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Biography of Living persons
On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 10:50 AM, Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia) newyorkb...@gmail.com wrote: Correct. Opt-out will violate NPOV. - d. Why? Newyorkbrad ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l Because then the subject of any given biography can say Remove the parts I don't like or I'll request opt-out. In essence, it means we can only have hagiographies approved by subjects and/or their PR department. We should be careful to impeccably source and duly weight negative or controversial information, and note that it is in dispute if it is. We should -not- remove it upon request if this is done. -- Freedom is the right to say that 2+2=4. From this all else follows. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Biography of Living persons
And what might you suggest as a sixth pillar in terms of this issue? bibliomaniac15 --- On Mon, 12/29/08, Joe Szilagyi szila...@gmail.com wrote: From: Joe Szilagyi szila...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Biography of Living persons To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 6:36 AM On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Scientia Potentia est bibliomaniac...@yahoo.com wrote: In the end, BLP is not one of our five pillars. The fact that we are an encyclopedia is. bibliomaniac15 And like anything on Wikipedia, subject to change. Who says we can't have Six Pillars? - Joe ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Biography of Living persons
In a message dated 12/29/2008 9:33:08 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk writes: In many ways, the most effective solution would be a hard-and-bright line like the DNB uses - no-one who is alive, end of story, and we could deal with living people as tangential notes in their work. But it certainly wouldn't be popular! Oh silly that would never fly! No article on George Bush? No article on John Major? No article on Brad Pitt? Will Johnson **One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dpicid=aolcom40vanityncid=emlcntaolcom0025) ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Biography of Living persons
On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 7:15 PM, wjhon...@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 12/29/2008 9:33:08 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk writes: In many ways, the most effective solution would be a hard-and-bright line like the DNB uses - no-one who is alive, end of story, and we could deal with living people as tangential notes in their work. But it certainly wouldn't be popular! Oh silly that would never fly! No article on George Bush? No article on John Major? No article on Brad Pitt? That might look odd but it could certainly be justified. However, the real problem with only including biographies after the deaths of the subjects is that this is a general encyclopaedia and not a specific list of biographies; biographical information is found in a very wide range of articles. Hence it is no use having a rule which prohibits a biography of (for example) Bill Clinton until he dies, which then permits an article about the impeachment in 1998 which must discuss other claimed examples of his infidelity in order to be comprehensive. -- Sam Blacketer ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Is he worth causing that much disruption to our users? On 12/29/08, Joe Szilagyi szila...@gmail.com wrote: If Verizon or whatever Incompetant Inc. ISP he uses is unlikely to do anything, why not just fix it from a technical end? Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse page. If the technical means to do this doesn't exist yet, why doesn't someone create it? - Joe ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On 29/12/2008, Joe Szilagyi szila...@gmail.com wrote: Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse page. It probably wouldn't work because of proxies and people that would emulate/help him. Still, ideas that would affect less people rather than more like that are almost certainly IMO the way to go; for example restricting the range of characters and checking that the move title consists of words in a dictionary before permitting non admins or users with a small number of edits to complete a move might be desirable. - Joe -- -Ian Woollard We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly imperfect world would be much better. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
The problem with that is that many articles we have would not be found in any dictionary. X! On Dec 29, 2008, at 6:02 PM [Dec 29, 2008 ], Ian Woollard wrote: On 29/12/2008, Joe Szilagyi szila...@gmail.com wrote: Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse page. It probably wouldn't work because of proxies and people that would emulate/help him. Still, ideas that would affect less people rather than more like that are almost certainly IMO the way to go; for example restricting the range of characters and checking that the move title consists of words in a dictionary before permitting non admins or users with a small number of edits to complete a move might be desirable. - Joe -- -Ian Woollard We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly imperfect world would be much better. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
What percentage of his page moves were not picked up automatically by a bot? What percentage of this users vandalism is not picked up by a bot? Why is the ISP responsible for what he dumps into Wikipedia, rather than Wikipedia, as it allows itself to be a dumping ground? The Viacom/Youtube lawsuit demonstrates that this is a legal grey area, thus, I see little ground on which to punish the entire ip range of the ISP. Why are machine learning bots that are trained on previous vandalism in order to detect new vandalism not being used? They have been developed. Why is the Foundation not funding their further development? I believe the direction of this thread has been all wrong. Peace, On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Soxred93 soxre...@gmail.com wrote: The problem with that is that many articles we have would not be found in any dictionary. X! On Dec 29, 2008, at 6:02 PM [Dec 29, 2008 ], Ian Woollard wrote: On 29/12/2008, Joe Szilagyi szila...@gmail.com wrote: Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse page. It probably wouldn't work because of proxies and people that would emulate/help him. Still, ideas that would affect less people rather than more like that are almost certainly IMO the way to go; for example restricting the range of characters and checking that the move title consists of words in a dictionary before permitting non admins or users with a small number of edits to complete a move might be desirable. - Joe -- -Ian Woollard We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly imperfect world would be much better. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- You have successfully failed! ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On 29/12/2008, Joe Szilagyi szila...@gmail.com wrote: Allow blocking on a more granular level, if we know his ISP, and lock out moves and redirects for the whole damn ISPs, and specifically point the finger back in the block message: Blocked because of JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp with a nice shiny link to his long-term abuse page. on 12/29/08 6:02 PM, Ian Woollard at ian.wooll...@gmail.com wrote: It probably wouldn't work because of proxies and people that would emulate/help him. Still, ideas that would affect less people rather than more like that are almost certainly IMO the way to go; for example restricting the range of characters and checking that the move title consists of words in a dictionary before permitting non admins or users with a small number of edits to complete a move might be desirable. Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or more) of the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint to the police. Marc Riddell ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Potthast, Stein, Gerling. (2008). Automatic Vandalism Detection in Wikipedia. http://www.uni-weimar.de/medien/webis/publications/downloads/papers/stein_2008c.pdf Abstract. We present results of a new approach to detect destructive article revi- sions, so-called vandalism, in Wikipedia. Vandalism detection is a one-class clas- sification problem, where vandalism edits are the target to be identified among all revisions. Interestingly, vandalism detection has not been addressed in the In- formation Retrieval literature by now. In this paper we discuss the characteristics of vandalism as humans recognize it and develop features to render vandalism detection as a machine learning task. We compiled a large number of vandalism edits in a corpus, which allows for the comparison of existing and new detection approaches. Using logistic regression we achieve 83% precision at 77% recall with our model.* Compared to the rule-based methods that are currently applied* *in Wikipedia, our approach increases the F -Measure performance by 49% while* *being faster at the same time.* Open the PDF, scan to page 667. This bot outperforms MartinBot, T-850 Robotic Assistant, WerdnaAntiVandalBot, Xenophon, ClueBot, CounterVandalismBot, PkgBot, MiszaBot, and AntiVandalBot. It outperforms the best of those (AntiVandalBot) by a very wide margin. So why are you wasting the ISPs time and the police's time when the best of the passive technology routes have not been explored? Using machine learning *you pit the vandals against themselves. *Every time they perform a particular kind of vandalism, it can never be performed again because the bot will recognize it. Cheers, ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Brian wrote: By the way, I ask those questions having read the bots user page. It is apparently quite effective, indicating to me that this user causes minimal disruption. minimal only applies if it doesn't impact *your* watchlist. OK, he's fairly quickly detected, blocked and reverted, and protections applied. But, you know, what editors should really be doing is creating good content. Vandals should not be be allowed to divert resources away from that objective, and if they do, they should be stopped. I see no middle position here. Those of us who spend our time controlling vandalism, and it is a control paradigm, would much rather be creating that good content. Any vandal is a diversion from that purpose, and we are much too lenient with them. Four levels of warning is too many for obvious vandals, and I start at level 2. There is no such thing as AGF for most obvious vandals. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.net wrote: Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or more) of the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint to the police. Marc Riddell I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
This is preposterous. On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.net wrote: Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or more) of the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint to the police. Marc Riddell I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- You have successfully failed! ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
on 12/29/08 6:37 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: This is preposterous. What is? Marc On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.net wrote: Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or more) of the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint to the police. Marc Riddell I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
I hope you do understand that fixing the bots is not a simple task. Is the research you mentioned availible in any way that we can make use of it in programming? On 12/29/08, Brian brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: Marc, your argument does not address the article I posted. In fact, it contradicts it. You say it plays into his turf, but as I pointed out, the method pits him against himself. The future of vandalism bots on Wikipedia is *certainly* machine learning techniques. The question is, is the community going to waste their time contacting the police, or figuring out what it would take to get the source code and some funds from the Foundation? If I were a determined vandal, you could not stop me with the current bots. I consider the vandalism this kid is performing to be trivial. He is not even trying that hard. The problem is that the bots that have been put up against him are ruled based and he can easily lookup the rules. Vandalism and counter-vandalism is an arms race, but it is nowhere near as bad as the e-mail spam arms race as there is no financial incentive. Thus, simple bayesian techniques that are used for e-mail, and those described in the article I posted, will be very effective. The training set is monstrous - all of the tagged vandalism in the database. The method automatically escalates the arms race and nips each new technique in the bud as soon as it surfaces. Beating it will require a new breed of vandals. I say it again, contacting the police and the FBI is not the solution. Fixing the bots is. On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: on 12/29/08 6:43 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: Contacting the police and the FBI. It is an uncreative, heavy-handed measure that does not solve the problem. It will not stop this vandal and it will not stop future vandals. I disagree, Brian. Dealing with him using the computer as the mechanism is playing right into him. The computer is his turf, and the far-reaching exposure is exactly what he's wanting. The computer setting is something he feels he can control - the authorities would be something he could not. Marc On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: on 12/29/08 6:37 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: This is preposterous. What is? Marc On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.net wrote: Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or more) of the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint to the police. Marc Riddell I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- You have successfully failed! ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
on 12/29/08 7:09 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: Marc, your argument does not address the article I posted. In fact, it contradicts it. Brian, I wasn't addressing an article. I was addressing a specific problem that is sitting across from us right now. Marc On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: on 12/29/08 6:43 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: Contacting the police and the FBI. It is an uncreative, heavy-handed measure that does not solve the problem. It will not stop this vandal and it will not stop future vandals. I disagree, Brian. Dealing with him using the computer as the mechanism is playing right into him. The computer is his turf, and the far-reaching exposure is exactly what he's wanting. The computer setting is something he feels he can control - the authorities would be something he could not. Marc On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: on 12/29/08 6:37 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: This is preposterous. What is? Marc On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.net wrote: Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or more) of the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint to the police. Marc Riddell I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
See [[User:Crispy1989]]. ClueBot is being rewritten, so it has an artificial neural network now. In other words, it has a brain. This enables it to learn about current vandalism strategies, and start reverting them without Cobi directly programming in heuristics. X! On Dec 29, 2008, at 7:29 PM [Dec 29, 2008 ], Marc Riddell wrote: on 12/29/08 7:09 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: Marc, your argument does not address the article I posted. In fact, it contradicts it. Brian, I wasn't addressing an article. I was addressing a specific problem that is sitting across from us right now. Marc On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: on 12/29/08 6:43 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: Contacting the police and the FBI. It is an uncreative, heavy- handed measure that does not solve the problem. It will not stop this vandal and it will not stop future vandals. I disagree, Brian. Dealing with him using the computer as the mechanism is playing right into him. The computer is his turf, and the far- reaching exposure is exactly what he's wanting. The computer setting is something he feels he can control - the authorities would be something he could not. Marc On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: on 12/29/08 6:37 PM, Brian at brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: This is preposterous. What is? Marc On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Sarah Ewart sarahew...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/30/08, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.net wrote: Hey, guys! This whole thing could go away rather quickly if one (or more) of the persons who feel victimized by him simply made a formal complaint to the police. Marc Riddell I agree, Marc. I think we would find that most of this talk about blocking the ISP, bots and so on would quickly become unnecessary once a couple of complaints were made to the police and he and his family were dealing with the FBI or the police on their doorstep ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
On 29/12/2008, Brian brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: Using logistic regression we achieve 83% precision at 77% recall with our model.* Compared to the rule-based methods that are currently applied* *in Wikipedia, our approach increases the F -Measure performance by 49% while* *being faster at the same time.* In my experience and reasonably expert knowledge of spam fighting, these are not very good statistics. If they had achieved over 99% then I would have been impressed, with if they did that with even fewer false positives then I would have been thoroughly impressed. And I don't consider it either-or. We should fight spammers of all kinds with all techniques that work. -- -Ian Woollard We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly imperfect world would be much better. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
Your standards are far too high. Rules + automatic classification + human eyes converges on 100%. On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:28 PM, Ian Woollard ian.wooll...@gmail.comwrote: On 29/12/2008, Brian brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: Using logistic regression we achieve 83% precision at 77% recall with our model.* Compared to the rule-based methods that are currently applied* *in Wikipedia, our approach increases the F -Measure performance by 49% while* *being faster at the same time.* In my experience and reasonably expert knowledge of spam fighting, these are not very good statistics. If they had achieved over 99% then I would have been impressed, with if they did that with even fewer false positives then I would have been thoroughly impressed. And I don't consider it either-or. We should fight spammers of all kinds with all techniques that work. -- -Ian Woollard We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly imperfect world would be much better. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- You have successfully failed! ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] General versus specific names/scope for articles
Ian Woollard wrote: There's recently been a change to the naming disambiguation guideline. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conflict#Common_subsets_versus_less_common_supersets_with_shared_names I'm interested in whether that is considered a good idea or not. For example the term 'internal combustion engine' usually refers to piston engines and wankel engines, but the term technically actually covers gas turbines and jet engines as well, in a less common sense. This is actually the way the Encyclopedia Britannica defines the term, it defines it in the most general sense. If you try to define the everyday sense you end up with an arbitrary definition that is difficult to defend, it's this or that only. Presumably that's why the EB does it the general way. Another example is jet engine, again, it normally covers turbojets and turbofans, but also ramjets, and in the most general (less common sense) it covers rockets and water jet powered boats. That's the way the jet engine article currently goes. The term 'aircraft engine' very often refers to, in aviation usage, just piston engines and Wankel engines used for aircraft, but not to jet engines, however it's easy to find jet engine manufacturers that refer to their jet engines as 'aircraft engines' as well, and the term would lead you to expect it to be more general than just piston engines. The same discussion has in the last two weeks or so recently cropped up in 'glider'. A lot of people use the term to refer to what can be termed sailplanes, and some don't even really consider, for example, 'hang gliders' to be gliders. I agree that people will usually imagine a sailplane when they are asked what a glider is, but I find that they will also usually agree that other things are gliders also. I'm not sure there's a right or a wrong exactly, but the wikipedia is probably a general publication and therefore, it seems to me, gets forced in a lot of cases to use general terms, (and this is the catch) even if they're somewhat less common, because the general term is synonymous with the specific term but a superset and usually easier to define. I'm just wondering what people here think about this issue in general and the ongoing 'glider' one in particular. Is 'glider' more or less anything/an aircraft that glides, or is it specifically a (for want of a better name) a sailplane. This is probably not the response you are looking for, but for me a glider is the hacker emblem, or any one of ASCII, or graphical representations of the pattern oxo oox xxx Being a representation of a pattern in John Conway's game of Life, which will travel in a diagonal line, unless it comes up on territory with other content. Yours, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
so are we calling the police or not? On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 10:29 PM, Soxred93 soxre...@gmail.com wrote: I would talk to either Crispy1989 or Cobi about that, as they are the prime developers of it. However, anyone can ask them for access to the interface where you can teach the new ClueBot what is vandalism and what isn't. X! On Dec 29, 2008, at 8:24 PM [Dec 29, 2008 ], Brian wrote: I would be interested in hearing more about what you are doing. My day job is as a developer on the Emergent Neural Network Simulation System ( http://grey.colorado.edu/ccnlab/index.php/Main_Page) and I can also provide insights into feature dimensions from my past experience on automatically tagging Wikipedia articles with quality ( http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proceedings:BM1). I was thinking that a non-neural network solution, such as as the Core Vector Machine, might be more appropriate given the size of the training dataset. But NN is an interesting idea. Maybe we can converse on wiki-research-l? Cheers, On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:13 PM, Soxred93 soxre...@gmail.com wrote: See [[User:Crispy1989]]. ClueBot is being rewritten, so it has an artificial neural network now. In other words, it has a brain. This enables it to learn about current vandalism strategies, and start reverting them without Cobi directly programming in heuristics. X! ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- Sincerely, Thinboy00 ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp
WIKIPEDIA 2009 A.D. THE MACHINES ROSE FROM THE ASHES OF THE VANDALISM FIRE. THEIR WAR TO EXTERMINATE VANDALS HAS RAGED FOR YEARS, BUT THE FINAL BATTLE WOULD NOT BE FOUGHT IN THE TOOLSERVER. IT WOULD BE FOUGHT HERE, IN OUR WIKI. TONIGHT... I think not, the ai only decides whether the edit is vandalism not what action to take. Any way what's the worst that can happen, its not like we can't block the bot (Adminbots on the other hand :P (or how about a StewardBot to desysop rouge adminbots :P))? The bottom line is, it isn't going to happen, a computer will only do what you tell it to do, a badly trained ai might start reverting good users, however then as I said we can just block the bot. - Chris On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 2:41 PM, Joe Szilagyi szila...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 5:13 PM, Soxred93 soxre...@gmail.com wrote: See [[User:Crispy1989]]. ClueBot is being rewritten, so it has an artificial neural network now. In other words, it has a brain. This enables it to learn about current vandalism strategies, and start reverting them without Cobi directly programming in heuristics. WIKIPEDIA 2009 A.D. THE MACHINES ROSE FROM THE ASHES OF THE VANDALISM FIRE. THEIR WAR TO EXTERMINATE VANDALS HAS RAGED FOR YEARS, BUT THE FINAL BATTLE WOULD NOT BE FOUGHT IN THE TOOLSERVER. IT WOULD BE FOUGHT HERE, IN OUR WIKI. TONIGHT... - Joe ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
