Re: [WikiEN-l] Yet another PR company busted ... apparently it's all our fault
There is a fundamental difference between our inefficient and sometimes unsuccessful attempts to do things right, and their deliberate attempts to do things wrong. And there is also a difference, though a smaller one, between an individual's misguided attempt to fix what he perceives as injustice towards themselves, and a commercial concern's deliberate attempt to violate or evade for money what they must know are our rules . Nobody can perceive whitewashing as proper, though they may think it something they can get away with. And we also need to realize that the more we stop improper efforts, the more people trying to make them will complain. Avoiding complaints is not our measure of success; avoiding justified complaints is. On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 12 November 2012 16:30, Steve Summit s...@eskimo.com wrote: Ken Arromdee wrote: When they say that Wikipedia's proces for fixing articles is opaque, time-consuming and cumbersome, they are *correct*. Well, yeah, but. Right (sorta) conclusion, wrong reason. It can always be improved, but I don't think our process for fixing articles is *that* bad. And, in any case, it wasn't at all so cumbersome that it kept Finsbury from whitewashing the article! The real point, surely, is whether the word needlessly can be shoehorned in front of cumbersome. Charles ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- David Goodman DGG at the enWP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Yet another PR company busted ... apparently it's all our fault
On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 2:28 PM, David Goodman dgge...@gmail.com wrote: There is a fundamental difference between our inefficient and sometimes unsuccessful attempts to do things right, and their deliberate attempts to do things wrong. Yes, but we must not forget that PR people are not the only people who use Wikipedia to do things wrong. By operating the completely open system we do, we enable *anyone* to do wrong, be they PR or staff working for a company, or a company's detractors. The community is responsible for managing Wikipedia. And whether Wikipedia is easy or difficult to abuse is the community's responsibility. Andreas And there is also a difference, though a smaller one, between an individual's misguided attempt to fix what he perceives as injustice towards themselves, and a commercial concern's deliberate attempt to violate or evade for money what they must know are our rules . Nobody can perceive whitewashing as proper, though they may think it something they can get away with. And we also need to realize that the more we stop improper efforts, the more people trying to make them will complain. Avoiding complaints is not our measure of success; avoiding justified complaints is. On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 12 November 2012 16:30, Steve Summit s...@eskimo.com wrote: Ken Arromdee wrote: When they say that Wikipedia's proces for fixing articles is opaque, time-consuming and cumbersome, they are *correct*. Well, yeah, but. Right (sorta) conclusion, wrong reason. It can always be improved, but I don't think our process for fixing articles is *that* bad. And, in any case, it wasn't at all so cumbersome that it kept Finsbury from whitewashing the article! The real point, surely, is whether the word needlessly can be shoehorned in front of cumbersome. Charles ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- David Goodman DGG at the enWP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Yet another PR company busted ... apparently it's all our fault
On 16 November 2012 14:38, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, but we must not forget that PR people are not the only people who use Wikipedia to do things wrong. By operating the completely open system we do, we enable *anyone* to do wrong, be they PR or staff working for a company, or a company's detractors. The community is responsible for managing Wikipedia. And whether Wikipedia is easy or difficult to abuse is the community's responsibility. This still has nothing to do with the actual point of the thread. You are knowingly derailing the thread to push your personal hobby horses. Again. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Yet another PR company busted ... apparently it's all our fault
On 16 November 2012 14:38, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 2:28 PM, David Goodman dgge...@gmail.com wrote: There is a fundamental difference between our inefficient and sometimes unsuccessful attempts to do things right, and their deliberate attempts to do things wrong. Yes, but we must not forget that PR people are not the only people who use Wikipedia to do things wrong. By operating the completely open system we do, we enable *anyone* to do wrong, be they PR or staff working for a company, or a company's detractors. The community is responsible for managing Wikipedia. And whether Wikipedia is easy or difficult to abuse is the community's responsibility. I suppose this line of argument might be of some interest to someone looking for a dissertation topic in moral philosophy (as has been noted, it is off-topic). What happens to the notion of agency online? Still, I can't accept that it makes sense of some putative connection inherent in wiki technology, collective responsibility, and mere participation as an editor. Talking about the community as a way of avoiding talking about the intentions of the actors here is a neat trick. I think the meaning of wrong is being slurred here. I certainly don't think one should talk about enabling when editing is always a conditional permission rather than any kind of right, and the permission is given for a definite reason. And so on. The usual approach would surely be to look first at who is hosting the site when you seek to assign responsibility. Charles ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Yet another PR company busted ... apparently it's all our fault
On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 16 November 2012 14:38, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 2:28 PM, David Goodman dgge...@gmail.com wrote: There is a fundamental difference between our inefficient and sometimes unsuccessful attempts to do things right, and their deliberate attempts to do things wrong. Yes, but we must not forget that PR people are not the only people who use Wikipedia to do things wrong. By operating the completely open system we do, we enable *anyone* to do wrong, be they PR or staff working for a company, or a company's detractors. The community is responsible for managing Wikipedia. And whether Wikipedia is easy or difficult to abuse is the community's responsibility. I suppose this line of argument might be of some interest to someone looking for a dissertation topic in moral philosophy (as has been noted, it is off-topic). What happens to the notion of agency online? Still, I can't accept that it makes sense of some putative connection inherent in wiki technology, collective responsibility, and mere participation as an editor. Talking about the community as a way of avoiding talking about the intentions of the actors here is a neat trick. I think the meaning of wrong is being slurred here. I certainly don't think one should talk about enabling when editing is always a conditional permission rather than any kind of right, and the permission is given for a definite reason. And so on. The usual approach would surely be to look first at who is hosting the site when you seek to assign responsibility. Well, no, because the Foundation has made it abundantly clear that they assume no responsibility whatsoever for content, or for questions like whether we have flagged revisions or not. All of that is fully delegated to the community. We know we have more than four million articles and not enough people watching them. Every time something happens like the examples I gave earlier http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/in-a-web-of-lies-the-newspaper-must-live.premium-1.469273 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboardoldid=522638898#Muna_AbuSulayman or the sort of thing SmartSE raised here the other day http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Walesoldid=523399299#Spotting_off-wiki_disputes_that_end_up_causing_serious_problems_here or even the thing Wizardman raised on the same page http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Walesoldid=523399299#The_main_problem_with_the_site the responsibility for having allowed it to happen lies with the community, not with the Foundation. But the community generally is not aware of that responsibility, or denies it, and certainly lacks any efficient organ to exercise it. At most, you sometimes get people worrying whether Wikipedia might get sued, when in reality, thanks to Section 230 safe harbour provisions, * the only people who ever might theoretically get sued over content they added are individual editors, and * the Foundation has no more responsibility for Wikipedia content than gmail has editorial responsibility for the content of our e-mails. So the community designs the system under which Wikipedia operates. And DGG is right: the aim is not to minimise the number of complaints, but the number of *justified* complaints. You can't do that without changing the system that is generating the problems, and that's up to the community, not the Foundation. Andreas ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
