Re: [WikiEN-l] How the Professor Who Fooled Wikipedia Got Caught by Reddit, _The Atlantic_
On 21 May 2012 00:09, David Levy lifeisunf...@gmail.com wrote: Gwern Branwen wrote: There's nothing to answer; Yes, there is. Your methodology has been challenged, and you've yet to identify the compromised articles, indicate that you've stopped performing such edits or confirm that the damage has been repaired. You've admitted to committing widespread vandalism, and you now appear to be boasting of the accomplishment and mocking the community's response. Why shouldn't you be blocked to prevent further disruption? (To be clear, this isn't a rhetorical question.) Because sometimes it's a good thing to ignore all rules to make a point? Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Point me to discussions with newcomers about notability?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogscast springs to mind. A million followers on Youtube, arguably one of the factors in making Minecraft as popular as it is today, deleted time after time. Michel Vuijlsteke On 9 October 2011 01:11, WereSpielChequers werespielchequ...@gmail.comwrote: One good place to look would be talkpages deleted per G8, especially where the article was deleted per A7. Better still if you could get an extract of deleted talkpage edits by editors with less than 100 edits. Or if you don't have access to deleted edits, an extract of Wikipedia space edits in subpages of Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion by editors with fewer than 100 edits would find shed loads. In my experience the most common argument against our notability concept is along the lines of but he exists!. Which is more a failure to grasp the concept of notability as opposed to having an alternative concept of it. More meaningful ones are along the lines of Wikipedia not embracing the Internet - our lack of regard for people with high youtube followings does seem perverse to some; And ones where notability is as yet uncertain such as new signings to major teams who haven't yet played for the team. WereSpielChequers On 8 October 2011 09:24, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/10/7 Johan Jönsson brevlis...@gmail.com: do you remember any particular discussions about articles (on the talk page, or AfD if enough newcomers found their way there) on English Wikipedia where you could see that new editors/outsiders didn't agree with the concept of notability, or how notability is interpreted among (most) Wikipedians? I know that I've seen them, I just can't seem where to find them. +1 These need collecting. Deleting newcomers' hard work is one of our big PR problems. Even if, after contemplation, we decide we were actually right to do so. When someone wanders into the sausage factory and the very first thing that happens is that they fall head-first into the meat grinder ... this is an *unfortunate* circumstance. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Point me to discussions with newcomers about notability?
Here's a couple of discussions. In the very loosest sense of the term. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/The_Yogscast http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion/The_Yogscast http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Shadow_of_Israphel This says it all, really: - *Delete* - Yet another attempt by fans of an unremarkable podcast to find a way to promote themselves on Wikipedia. See the deletion logs for The YogPodhttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_YogPodaction=editredlink=1 , The Yogscasthttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Yogscastaction=editredlink=1 , The yogscasthttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_yogscastaction=editredlink=1, and Yogscasthttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yogscastaction=editredlink=1 . MikeWazowski http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:MikeWazowski (talkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MikeWazowski) 14:34, 14 July 2011 (UTC) And apparently it's personal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:CIreland#The_Yogscast_Wikipedia_page Excellent (imho) article start here, btw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bastawhiz/The_Yogscast On 9 October 2011 01:18, Michel Vuijlsteke wikipe...@zog.org wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogscast springs to mind. A million followers on Youtube, arguably one of the factors in making Minecraft as popular as it is today, deleted time after time. Michel Vuijlsteke On 9 October 2011 01:11, WereSpielChequers werespielchequ...@gmail.comwrote: One good place to look would be talkpages deleted per G8, especially where the article was deleted per A7. Better still if you could get an extract of deleted talkpage edits by editors with less than 100 edits. Or if you don't have access to deleted edits, an extract of Wikipedia space edits in subpages of Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion by editors with fewer than 100 edits would find shed loads. In my experience the most common argument against our notability concept is along the lines of but he exists!. Which is more a failure to grasp the concept of notability as opposed to having an alternative concept of it. More meaningful ones are along the lines of Wikipedia not embracing the Internet - our lack of regard for people with high youtube followings does seem perverse to some; And ones where notability is as yet uncertain such as new signings to major teams who haven't yet played for the team. WereSpielChequers On 8 October 2011 09:24, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/10/7 Johan Jönsson brevlis...@gmail.com: do you remember any particular discussions about articles (on the talk page, or AfD if enough newcomers found their way there) on English Wikipedia where you could see that new editors/outsiders didn't agree with the concept of notability, or how notability is interpreted among (most) Wikipedians? I know that I've seen them, I just can't seem where to find them. +1 These need collecting. Deleting newcomers' hard work is one of our big PR problems. Even if, after contemplation, we decide we were actually right to do so. When someone wanders into the sausage factory and the very first thing that happens is that they fall head-first into the meat grinder ... this is an *unfortunate* circumstance. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Point me to discussions with newcomers about notability?
Sorry to go on about this, but it really defies belief, sometimes, when you go into these things. I picked Yogscast because I'd just been watching an episode with my wife *and* I was just about 100% sure there wouldn't be an article on Wikipedia about them. What are you to make of an exchange like this ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:UtherSRG/Archive_4#Deletion_of_Yogscast), really, if you're looking to write an article about the Yogscast? Awesome, the file's nuked, and CIrelandhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CIreland salted the Yogscast page. I think we put a stopper on that! --HTMLCODER.exehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:HTMLCODER.exe (talk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:HTMLCODER.exe) 23:25, 28 April 2011 (UTC) Awesome in combination with nuking stuff and salting a page? Ack. Michel On 9 October 2011 01:38, Michel Vuijlsteke wikipe...@zog.org wrote: Here's a couple of discussions. In the very loosest sense of the term. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/The_Yogscast http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion/The_Yogscast http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Shadow_of_Israphel This says it all, really: - *Delete* - Yet another attempt by fans of an unremarkable podcast to find a way to promote themselves on Wikipedia. See the deletion logs for The YogPodhttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_YogPodaction=editredlink=1 , The Yogscasthttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Yogscastaction=editredlink=1 , The yogscasthttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_yogscastaction=editredlink=1, and Yogscasthttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yogscastaction=editredlink=1 . MikeWazowski http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:MikeWazowski (talkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MikeWazowski) 14:34, 14 July 2011 (UTC) And apparently it's personal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:CIreland#The_Yogscast_Wikipedia_page Excellent (imho) article start here, btw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bastawhiz/The_Yogscast On 9 October 2011 01:18, Michel Vuijlsteke wikipe...@zog.org wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogscast springs to mind. A million followers on Youtube, arguably one of the factors in making Minecraft as popular as it is today, deleted time after time. Michel Vuijlsteke On 9 October 2011 01:11, WereSpielChequers werespielchequ...@gmail.comwrote: One good place to look would be talkpages deleted per G8, especially where the article was deleted per A7. Better still if you could get an extract of deleted talkpage edits by editors with less than 100 edits. Or if you don't have access to deleted edits, an extract of Wikipedia space edits in subpages of Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion by editors with fewer than 100 edits would find shed loads. In my experience the most common argument against our notability concept is along the lines of but he exists!. Which is more a failure to grasp the concept of notability as opposed to having an alternative concept of it. More meaningful ones are along the lines of Wikipedia not embracing the Internet - our lack of regard for people with high youtube followings does seem perverse to some; And ones where notability is as yet uncertain such as new signings to major teams who haven't yet played for the team. WereSpielChequers On 8 October 2011 09:24, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/10/7 Johan Jönsson brevlis...@gmail.com: do you remember any particular discussions about articles (on the talk page, or AfD if enough newcomers found their way there) on English Wikipedia where you could see that new editors/outsiders didn't agree with the concept of notability, or how notability is interpreted among (most) Wikipedians? I know that I've seen them, I just can't seem where to find them. +1 These need collecting. Deleting newcomers' hard work is one of our big PR problems. Even if, after contemplation, we decide we were actually right to do so. When someone wanders into the sausage factory and the very first thing that happens is that they fall head-first into the meat grinder ... this is an *unfortunate* circumstance. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia committee member
I do not think many people are advocating removing information like the plot of a novel, movie or play. A vocal minority has successfully argued that information should be removed from articles indicating that certain parts of the article may contain information that would spoil one's enjoyment of the novel, movie or play. Whether a part of an article is a spoiler or not (and it's certainly not a black white issue) is an interesting bit of metadata to add. There's a variety of ways to display this information in an articles -- collapsible paragraphs, a spoiler warning alert, white on white text, etc. Any of these display methods could have a enough with the spoiler warnings or don't hide plot points from me anymore -- that's just a UI point. Of course, it's a little late for that now. All that information was removed. Too bad. Michel Vuijlsteke On 31 August 2010 15:53, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: The idea that we should hide or withhold obviously pertinent information - like the plot of a novel, movie, play, etc. in an article about same - has always struck me as anti-encyclopedia. Personally, I often look up articles on these subjects just to find out details of the plot... are you considering my needs as a reader when you make the paternalistic decision to scrub these articles of spoilers? I'm frustrated to find, on a regular basis, articles of this type stripped of all but the most general plot information - reduced, essentially, to the marketing blurbs put out by whoever publishes the content. Often you can find the plot information in the article history, and I've restored several of them, but who knows how many readers have come to the article hoping to see the plot and been disappointed by its absence? Encyclopedia articles ought to be comprehensive, and we rightly shoot down proposals aimed at the opposite. ~Nathan ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia committee member
On 31 August 2010 16:51, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 August 2010 15:16, Michel Vuijlsteke wikipe...@zog.org wrote: Whether a part of an article is a spoiler or not (and it's certainly not a black white issue) is an interesting bit of metadata to add. There's a variety of ways to display this information in an article -- collapsible paragraphs, a spoiler warning alert, white on white text, etc. Any of these display methods could have a enough with the spoiler warnings or don't hide plot points from me anymore -- that's just a UI point. Of course, it's a little late for that now. All that information was removed. Too bad. How do you objectively and neutrally determine what is and isn't a spoiler? You don't. Just like you can't objectively and neutrally determine if someone is fit to be an administrator, or if a picture is really beautiful, stunning, impressive, or informative enough to be featured. It's a call you make. You do something you believe will get a consensus. Most of the time there won't be much discussion: Crowe was dead himself the whole time and Tyler Durden is the narrator's alter ego probably could have a spoiler warning; The Titanic sinks and Jesus dies on the cross but not really probably don't need one. If you do get discussion, there's oodles of mechanisms to resolve things. Anyway. That particular data has been removed, the discussion has been held, no point in revisiting it, I guess. Sorry for bringing it up at all. Michel Vuijlsteke ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] List of Rivers of Egpyt - what to do?
Add links to [Wadi]? To [Brook of Egypt]? :) On 25 May 2010 09:05, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: So I decided to fill in a red link I saw on the community portal: [[List of Rivers of Egypt]]. I started creating the article, then reached the amusing realisation that perhaps there is only one. Yep, that one. So, do we just have a pathetically short list? It seems for completeness etc, that would be the right thing to do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rivers_of_Egypt Steve ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Administrator coup / mass deletions
2010/1/21 David Gerard dger...@gmail.com Does anyone have a summary of the articles deleted in the present blood-crazed axe frenzy? Is there a list up? And/or a description of the general type of BLP deleted? I understand many were hardly-viewed articles with no edits in the last six months. Which sounds innocuous enough, but remember that [[John Seigenthaler]] was one of those until the subject noticed. I don't get the entire controversy: is it not the case that only *statements* can be sourced, and not entire articles? Does that not mean that if [[John Seigenthaler]] contained at least one ref at the time, it wouldn't have been affected by this? So why not go the whole hog and delete all BLPs where not every statement is sourced? Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikimedian image restorations exploited on eBay
2009/9/18 Durova nadezhda.dur...@gmail.com If I were to place restorations under copyleft license it would backfire. Not necessarily backfire against me personally, but against the free culture movement. Look at the paint by numbers analogies within this list thread: many people cannot distinguish between careful hand restoration and simple crop/filter/auto-levels editing. My featured picture restorations take about ten hours' labor on average and one of my greatest fears is that fellow Wikimedians will mistake that for five minutes of running plug-ins. Imagine how simple it would be for an institution to protect its income stream by exploiting that confusion. I'm sorry, but I don't understand your argument. I know firsthand that hand restoration takes time. I also know that some people can't distinguish hand restoration from dustscratches + auto levels. I stand by my painting by numbers analogy for most digital restorations. But even if it weren't the case, and digital restoration was as incomparibly hard an frought with judgement calls as, say, the [[Restoration of the Sistine Chapel frescoes]]... do the restorers assert any rights? Should they be able to? Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikimedian image restorations exploited on eBay
2009/9/18 Durova nadezhda.dur...@gmail.com A new creative copyright is generated each time a tourist stands beneath the Venus de Milo and takes a snapshot due to the inherent creative decision in choosing angle and lighting when photographing three dimensional artwork. Creative copyright also attaches when the same tourist heads over to the Mona Lisa and takes another snapshot, since the frame around the Mona Lisa is three dimensional (there's also the creative joy of capturing dozens of tourist ballcaps in the periphery). http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Derivative_works Compare that creative effort to--for example--the creative intuition of reconstructing Admiral David Farragut's eyes. This was the man who said, Damn the torpedoes. Full speed ahead! Working on his portrait at 700% resolution, I was fascinated by that quote. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AdmFarragut.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Adm2.jpg At the time of that work I was thinking if it came out right, a viewer might imagine for an instant that Admiral Farragut was capable of turning and ordering another assault on New Orleans. Of course with eyes a few pixels moved and the expression could have turned out entirely different. Er... yes, *and*? Yes, restoration can be a lot of work (Farragut's eyes don't strike me as particularly hard to tackle or controversial, but that's perhaps just me -- I did a much trickier one the other month that arguably crossed the line of OR, where I corrected a double exposure, brr). Sure, photography can be very easy to do. And sometimes it's very hard to do. Sometimes there's no creativity involved, and sometimes there is. And? I'm terribly sorry, but still don't get your point. Are you begrudging photographers their rights? I get that you're frustrated that many people don't realise hand restoration can be a lot of work in terms of man-hours and that there's some skill involved a the occasional judgement call, but what would be your ideal outcome? An additional field in photo credits (if and when they ever show up in articles) for the restorer(s)? A different type of license? Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikimedian image restorations exploited on eBay
2009/9/18 Durova nadezhda.dur...@gmail.com Let's set the Sistine Chapel example to rest: physical restoration and digital restoration are so different that it clouds the discussion to compare them. I could not disagree more. But I get the impression this is a discussion that would be a lot easier to have in person rather than by e-mail, so I'll graciously bow out. :) Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikimedian image restorations exploited on eBay
2009/9/17 Durova nadezhda.dur...@gmail.com The Louis Brandeis restoration was 20 hours' labor. Extensive staining and chemical damage required careful reconstruction including large portions of his face. It is, likewise, shocking to encounter a senior editor--an arbitrator no less--who calmly presumes such work entails no creative input and no share of authorship. I personally think image restoration is more like painting by numbers than creative work. It's like creating an Ikea bookcase: there is some *skill* involved but no artistic or creative input. And if it's done properly, there's no way of telling who did assembled the bookcase, or indeed restored the image. Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikimedian image restorations exploited on eBay
2009/9/17 Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 2:04 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke wikipe...@zog.org wrote: I personally think image restoration is more like painting by numbers than creative work. It's like creating an Ikea bookcase: there is some *skill* involved but no artistic or creative input. And if it's done properly, there's no way of telling who did assembled the bookcase, or indeed restored the image. There is a lot more skill than 'painting by numbers' involved. One way to tell is to look at the market for such skills. Look at the salaries paid to a painter and to a skilled image restorer. Even if you can't do that, then the time involved is the clincher. It may not be strictly speaking creative, but it does deserve recognition. I'm not disagreeing with you that it deserves recognition, and that it takes time. But as you say: it's not strictly creative. Assembling a thousand identical Ikea bookcases also takes time. :) I had my first FP on Labour Day and that was a restored image. When I submitted the restoration I knew full well that I was submitting it to a site that allowsall content to be reused commercially, and that no attribution was necessary. And I'm fine with that. And in any cases, some aspects of restoration *are* creative (mainly the ones that involve filling in missing material), but those can be controversial. Matter of interpretation. Take this portrait I restored: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Andrew_Curtin2.jpg Can you tell what I filled in? This is the original image: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Andrew_Curtin.jpg Skill involved, sure. But no artistry. Adding a hand was an order of magnitude easier than adding the missing parts of his pants, by the way. :) Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikimedian image restorations exploited on eBay
2009/9/17 Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke wikipe...@zog.org wrote: 2009/9/17 Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com snip And in any cases, some aspects of restoration *are* creative (mainly the ones that involve filling in missing material), but those can be controversial. Matter of interpretation. Take this portrait I restored: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Andrew_Curtin2.jpg Can you tell what I filled in? This is the original image: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Andrew_Curtin.jpg Skill involved, sure. But no artistry. Adding a hand was an order of magnitude easier than adding the missing parts of his pants, by the way. :) Thanks for those examples. An excellent restoration. I'd love to discuss the missing hand in more detail some time, as that is a good example of something I think can be controversial. You absolutely have to make clear when that sort of thing is done, and how and why. Ah: Restored version of File:Andrew Curtin.jpghttp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Andrew_Curtin.jpg. Dust, scratches and tears removed. Parts reconstructed by using other half of stereophotograph[1] http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/cwpbh.01289 Histogram adjusted and cropped. Examples of when the line is crossed between adding things and creating something new, would be good. I know of quite a few examples, but will have to come back to this later. Mainly digital composites and colouring ins of old photos. Agree 100%. Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] News agencies are not RSs
I don't see why they didn't indef-protect the entry with a reference to an OTRS ticket. That eventually happened, but only after much drama, and after branding a news agency unreliable. Michel 2009/6/30 Ian Woollard ian.wooll...@gmail.com Can I ask what policy this was done under? While I generally approve of the action here, it seems that the admins involved were not entirely following the letter or really entirely the spirit of Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. So how are they not technically rouge admins? So shouldn't there, if practical to do so, a policy for this kind of thing? At the very least that way the boundaries of what is and isn't acceptable can be discussed. I'm also left wondering whether there are any other similar things going on, either temporary activities, or extended ones; or whether there have been in the past. If administrators do things, how is a user supposed to know that they're doing it for a sensible reason, rather than some less savoury purpose? -- -Ian Woollard All the world's a stage... but you'll grow out of it eventually. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] News agencies are not RSs
2009/6/30 Gwern Branwen gwe...@gmail.com Even if we think *they* were not a RS (which of course they are), there were still other sources: Word came close to leaking widely last month when Rohde won his second Pulitzer Prize, as part of the Times team effort for coverage of Afghanistan and Pakistan. The Italian news agency Adnkronos International did spill the beans, reportedly spurring a number of blogs into action. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25673247-2703,00.html Sorry, Adnkronos International is not a reliable source: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=David_S._Rohdediff=nextoldid=277012138 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=David_S._Rohdediff=nextoldid=277012138 Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Twitterpedia will win
2009/5/5 David Gerard dger...@gmail.com The Peloponnesian War, which lasted from 431-404BC, was an Ancient Greek military war, fought by Athens and its empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta. That's 167 characters. Think we could get a 140 character requirement added to [[Wikipedia:Lead section]]? The Peloponnesian War (431-404BC), was an Ancient Greek war between Athens and its empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta.? :) Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Art incident
2009/4/27 Ray Saintonge sainto...@telus.net wjhon...@aol.com wrote: If I create a piece of art using Coca-Cola bottles and call it Coca-Cola Art am I infringing on a trademark? Or am I describing my art piece accurately? Was Andy Warhol ever sued for his Campbell Soup cans? I think the answer is no, of course not, silly. :) But I also think things would've been radically different if he'd made cans of soup, called them Campbell soup cans and put them in supermarkets. Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense
2009/4/23 David Gerard dger...@gmail.com 2009/4/23 wjhon...@aol.com: In this case, there are two pages (yes just two) of biography if you will, and *six* pages of this nonsense. That's just a tad overweight I think we can all agree on that point. The solution is to add more bio, not to cut the land holdings. More bio would obviously be fine, but I don't agree that that there is a problem to be solved here. If it bothers you there is too much of this nonsense, don't read it. That nonsense to you may be much more important to someone else. Undue weight is not an issue either. The article is not asserting that the nonsense is more important than anything else in the man's life. It is what it is: a reference list. Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense
2009/4/23 wjhon...@aol.com The Domesday holdings are not significant to his biography. We are not trying to build a land holdings database, we are writing biographies. We are writing a comprehensive written compendium that holds information from either all branches of knowledge or a particular branch of knowledge. We are not writing a comprehensive written compendium of biographies. Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Citizendium vs. Wikipedia
2009/4/22 Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com And Citizendium's coverage is lacking in vital areas. I tried to look up Macedonia, but no article. One sentence article: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Mongolia One paragraph article: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Greece No articles on Chad, Bolivia, Malawi. I stopped looking. Oh boy. And Belgium is plain *wrong*. I applied for an author account just to be able to change the most egregious nonsense. Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] An open letter to Jimmy Wales
2009/4/11 David Gerard dger...@gmail.com: 2009/4/11 Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net: Unreal! And Larry Sanger thought he could come to Wikipedia and lodge complaints... Indeed. It's the bit where he's behaving here in a manner that wouldn't be put up with for a second on Citizendium or any of its associated mailing lists or forums that's most surprising. I don't get the point. In North Korea I assume it's not looked favourably upon when you criticise the Dear Leader. Does that mean that no North Korean should criticise WMF on Wikipedia? Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] A proposal to simplify and improve image markup in Wikipedia
Great stuff, all of this. Seriously, thanks. 2009/4/3 Håkon Wium Lie howc...@opera.com I've spent the last few days analyzing Wikipedia's HTML code for images and captions. The current code is quite good, but verbose and it has redundancies. Here is a proposal that describes how to simplify and improve the code: http://www.princexml.com/howcome/2009/wikipedia/image/ The proposed solution reduces the number of elements from 10 to 6 and the code size is reduced by more than 50%. Cheers, -hkon Håkon Wium Lie CTO °þe®ª howc...@opera.com http://people.opera.com/howcome ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Microsoft kills Encarta
2009/3/31 doc doc.wikipe...@ntlworld.com Today's unassailable phenomena, which no one can see anyone displacing, is tomorrow's footnote. BASIC anyone? Sinclair? Plastic records? [[Visual Basic .NET]]! ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] A proposal to simplify and improve footnote markup in Wikipedia
+1 2009/3/31 Håkon Wium Lie howc...@opera.com In the quest to simplify and improve Wikipedia's HTML code, the turn has come to footnotes. Here is a proposal that describes how the number of elements needed to represent footnotes can be halved: http://www.princexml.com/howcome/2009/wikipedia/ref/ Some of the proposed changes seems to belong in this group: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2009-March/042405.html Cheers, -hkon Håkon Wium Lie CTO °þe®ª howc...@opera.com http://people.opera.com/howcome ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
[WikiEN-l] Ooh, shiny: Wikirank
Did anyone see? http://wikirank.com/en ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)
2009/1/12 Philip Sandifer snowspin...@gmail.com On Jan 11, 2009, at 8:56 PM, David Gerard wrote: Well, not really. If they don't believe a given item can have reliable sources - the sort of rabid nutters who brag about deletion tallies on their user pages - then they just won't accept anything. I speak here from observation of the phenomenon. This has been one of the most toxic things I've seen in a long time, and it's a real problem. In the Threshold debate, I have seen, in all sincerity, the following. 1: The dismissal of a print source as unverified 2: The rejection of a source because of the possibility (with no evidence) that its author played the game in question. 3: The rejection of a third source because it allowed games to be submitted for review (even though it didn't review all games submitted) And, most recently, the article has been the subject of a second AfD where the nominator flatly lies about the sourcing in the article, asserting that it is sourced to things it isn't, and ignoring sources it does have. That particular glory can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)_(2nd_nomination) Anyone any idea where I could find the original AfD? It seems to have disappeared: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)oldid=263769784 The edit summary just says oops. Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)
2009/1/13 Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke wikipe...@zog.org wrote: snip Anyone any idea where I could find the original AfD? It seems to have disappeared: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)oldid=263769784 The edit summary just says oops. The deletion log helps in cases like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Logpage=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_(online_game) OTRS Courtesy blank What probably happened is that someone who was unhappy with some of the things said in the heat of the moment e-mailed the Wikipedia OTRS service and asked for a courtesy deletion. The entire discussion needed to be deleted, apparently. The page now reads The result was *delete*. with the rest of the deletion summary in html comment. I'm officially weirded out. :) Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] MUD history dissolving into the waters of time
2009/1/10 Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net Wikipedia editors should really have enough knowledge about their subject matter to make choices based on good judgement rather than strict adherence to flawed guidelines. Any guideline, law or contract doesn't absolve one from using one's brain — these things are just frameworks for handling worst-case scenarios better. http://www.unwesen.de/articles/wikipedia_on_mud_history This is what is frustrating to me. Although I am not recognized expert on MUDs, I know enough that the decision made is obviously wrong, while those making the decision seem entirely innocent of the subject. Oh, we shouldn't worry that there's a hole in Wikipedia MUD coverage where Threshold used to be -- from the AfD: - *KEEP*. Read all other MUDs in category, Threshold is definitely most notable of them all with the most independent press coverage. [...] - *Comment* WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTShttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, for one; we'll get to deleting those other MUD articles in due time, if it's merited. [...] I don't know know about any of you, but when the first thing on the closing admin's talk page is I have deleted over 1,700 pages on Wikipedia, through C:CSD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C:CSD and WP:AFDhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:AFD. A very small percentage of that, 2-3%, have been listed at deletion reviewhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:DRV, and only a handful have been overturned -- and not a single one has been because of corruption or bad faithhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:AGF., I get a really bad feeling. Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] MUD history dissolving into the waters of time
Ah, the irony. This entire episode has produced articles like this: http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/01/08/wikipedia-muds-and-where-the-sources-are/ Lots of information there for Wikipedia. 2009/1/10 Durova nadezhda.dur...@gmail.com Two centuries ago, Jane Austen was popular culture for teenage girls. Four centuries ago, Shakespeare was popular culture. A lot of scholars today would be happier if their contemporaries had kept better records about either of their lives. When Austen's nephew finally wrote up his recollections, it was with regrets that nobody who knew more was still alive. -Durova On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Ken Arromdee arrom...@rahul.net wrote: On Sat, 10 Jan 2009, toddmallen wrote: There is no question as to his expertise. The question is Was his expertise important enough that someone who's -not him- fact checked and published what he had to say on this matter? The answer appears to be no. Self-published sources, even by experts, are not particularly reliable, nor do they in any way establish notability. We're not going to start deleting our article about the Simpsons. But we both know very well that sources about the Simpsons aren't going to be fact-checked. Sources about any sort of popular culture topic generally aren't fact-checked. If you publish a book about the Simpsons, the publisher won't go through and verify that your statement about the first appearance of Krusty the Clown is correct. There may be an occasional professional journal with a Simpsons article that is fact-checked, but most of our information in Simpsons articles won't be from sources like that. The idea that using a non-self-published source means it's fact-checked just isn't *true*, unless you're talking about some kind of technical or scientific topic, which this isn't. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- http://durova.blogspot.com/ ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Anti-intellectualism
Diffs or it didn't happen! :) Michel 2008/12/11 Phil Sandifer snowspin...@gmail.com Avoiding making this a de facto RFC on a given article... I've been getting into a fairly nasty feud on a popular culture article in which I added an academic criticism section, summarizing articles I could find on the subject. This seems to me well-supported by numerous policies. But it has proven inordinately contentious, and contentious in what seems to me particularly pernicious ways - the articles (from peer-reviewed journals) have been compared to blog posts and fancruft, declared non- notable (not that notability determines article content), and the sections have been accused of being jargon-filled (which, they are, yes, but we're dealing with criticism in the humanities. It's jargon- filled, and the jargon doesn't translate to everyday words easily, or else we wouldn't use the jargon). I'm very, very troubled by this, for a number of reasons. For one thing, it seems to me to cheapen Wikipedia, miring us in the everyday and the simple. I am unable to think of anyone who would seriously criticize an encyclopedia for excessively covering peer-reviewed, academic scholarship. Covering academic criticism of any subject should be a goal for us. It should be the goal for us. But apparently this position is not only not widely held, but an incredible minority position. Am I crazy? Did I just get a bad bunch of people conversing on the article, such that I should spill the article name and get the sanity brigade on it? Or are we really of the opinion that peer-reviewed academic criticism is a non-notable perspective on a subject? -Phil ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Serious problems with interlanguage links
2008/12/6 Eugene van der Pijll [EMAIL PROTECTED] (who is a bit ticked off about this subject because of all the work he's done to keep incorrect wikilinks off the [[Hoek]] dab page...) Sorely tempted to add a reference to Ren Höek to [[Hoek]]. :D Michel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
