[Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Wiki Loves Monuments community conversation: Sunday 21 Jan on handling international competitions during armed conflict
Hi, There is already several projects on Wikidata : - https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_WLM - https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Built_heritage But, the definition of a "monument" varies a lot from country to country (for some countries, "monument" is a building, sometimes not ; for some countries, "monument" has to be old, sometimes not ; the only common international definition is "a monument is something designed as such by a country") . And laws vary even more, what you are allowed to take pictures of can be very different. If you take only France, Switzerland and Italy (three countries next to each others), you have : - no FOP in France, so you may have to wait up to 130 years after construction for the building to be photographed - FOP in Switzerland, you can take pictures of building built yesterday - strange situation in Italy where additional laws prevent you from taken pictures of buildings even if they are in the public domain (so it can be millennia old and still forbidden to photographed and pretty recent but allowed) It is still possible to have a less national approach on Commons for the upload (just one campaign instead of one for each country) but to judge each individual photo, you still need to know and take into account the country. Cheers, Nicolas Le lun. 22 janv. 2024 à 04:34, Kimmo Virtanen a écrit : > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 11:34 PM Mykola Kozlenko wrote: >> > The heritage lists are also not a 'some degree' dependency but a major >> one: organising contest without lists will result in a mess of photos that >> someone needs to categorise manually. It's not easy to sort pictures from >> places you have never seen with descriptions in a language you don't >> understand. > > > Technically generating “lists” could be done to specify the international > data model for the monuments and required information in Wikidata so that > monuments will show up in competition-related tools (such as maps and > lists). With this approach, local editors could participate in improving > the data, and it can be self-organized. > > Examples from other Wikidata projects could be > > Wikiproject Sum of all paintings > * https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_sum_of_all_paintings > * > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_sum_of_all_paintings/Property_statistics > > Wikiproject Every Politician > * https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_every_politician > > Uniform monument data is also required to get better international tools > (maps, upload tools, statistics), so doing a data model is a good idea for > this reason. > > However, this is not a silver bullet for decentralization as the national > teams also do many other things, such as promoting the opening of the data > in the first place, doing the actual import for large datasets to wikidata, > communication, “helpdesk/tech-support,” etc. National teams are also in a > position where they can remove nationally recognized monuments from > competition lists when asked. Reviewing these requests requires local > knowledge. > > For example, one valid reason has been that the monuments could be damaged > if there were increased visitors because of visibility. Damaging could be > because of environmental wearing, illegal archeological diggings, stealing > metal for selling, illegal paintings/tagging, but also because there is a > danger that somebody would destroy it on purpose. This removing monuments > from the competition must be handled discreetly in global competition also. > > Thus I can hardly imagine how we can sustainably organise contests in >> places where local volunteers don't want to work on them. > > > I think that the key issue is not local volunteers who work as individuals > but if there can be a local team whose responsibility is to organize the > event and who is the local contact point for communication using their real > name and face. There are countries where this is not possible for > organizers because it is unsafe, for example, because Wikipedia editors are > prosecuted. From a practical point of view, the international situation > could also be too complex for the local team to organize a competition > successfully. > > Br, > -- Kimmo Virtanen / Zache > > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 11:34 PM Mykola Kozlenko wrote: > >> Hi Richard, >> >> This is not really an unusual way: in fact, most of our campaigns are >> locally-based because of language and culture barriers. While Commons is >> multilingual, most discussions (including this one) happen in English, a >> language most people in the world actually don't speak. >> >> The heritage lists are also not a 'some degree' dependency but a major >> one: organising contest without lists will result in a mess of photos that >> someone needs to categorise manually. It's not easy to sort pictures from >> places you have never seen with descriptions in a language you don't >> understand. Thus I can hardly imagine how
[Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Wiki Loves Monuments community conversation: Sunday 21 Jan on handling international competitions during armed conflict
> > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 11:34 PM Mykola Kozlenko wrote: > > The heritage lists are also not a 'some degree' dependency but a major > one: organising contest without lists will result in a mess of photos that > someone needs to categorise manually. It's not easy to sort pictures from > places you have never seen with descriptions in a language you don't > understand. Technically generating “lists” could be done to specify the international data model for the monuments and required information in Wikidata so that monuments will show up in competition-related tools (such as maps and lists). With this approach, local editors could participate in improving the data, and it can be self-organized. Examples from other Wikidata projects could be Wikiproject Sum of all paintings * https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_sum_of_all_paintings * https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_sum_of_all_paintings/Property_statistics Wikiproject Every Politician * https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_every_politician Uniform monument data is also required to get better international tools (maps, upload tools, statistics), so doing a data model is a good idea for this reason. However, this is not a silver bullet for decentralization as the national teams also do many other things, such as promoting the opening of the data in the first place, doing the actual import for large datasets to wikidata, communication, “helpdesk/tech-support,” etc. National teams are also in a position where they can remove nationally recognized monuments from competition lists when asked. Reviewing these requests requires local knowledge. For example, one valid reason has been that the monuments could be damaged if there were increased visitors because of visibility. Damaging could be because of environmental wearing, illegal archeological diggings, stealing metal for selling, illegal paintings/tagging, but also because there is a danger that somebody would destroy it on purpose. This removing monuments from the competition must be handled discreetly in global competition also. Thus I can hardly imagine how we can sustainably organise contests in > places where local volunteers don't want to work on them. I think that the key issue is not local volunteers who work as individuals but if there can be a local team whose responsibility is to organize the event and who is the local contact point for communication using their real name and face. There are countries where this is not possible for organizers because it is unsafe, for example, because Wikipedia editors are prosecuted. From a practical point of view, the international situation could also be too complex for the local team to organize a competition successfully. Br, -- Kimmo Virtanen / Zache On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 11:34 PM Mykola Kozlenko wrote: > Hi Richard, > > This is not really an unusual way: in fact, most of our campaigns are > locally-based because of language and culture barriers. While Commons is > multilingual, most discussions (including this one) happen in English, a > language most people in the world actually don't speak. > > The heritage lists are also not a 'some degree' dependency but a major > one: organising contest without lists will result in a mess of photos that > someone needs to categorise manually. It's not easy to sort pictures from > places you have never seen with descriptions in a language you don't > understand. Thus I can hardly imagine how we can sustainably organise > contests in places where local volunteers don't want to work on them. > > The only international heritage lists that exist are the UNESCO ones. I > can imagine a campaign dedicated to UNESCO world heritage monuments in > different countries. We had such an experience with UNESCO Biosphere > Reserves for Wiki Loves Earth, which was moderately successful (a few > hundred uploads and some interesting places that were not pictured before). > It is something that can be attempted, but of course it cannot really > replace Wiki Loves Monuments with its national contests. > > Mykola (User:NickK) > Wiki Loves Monuments Ukraine & Wiki Loves Earth international team > > *21 січня 2024, 20:09:58, від "Pharos" >: * > > I think some of the tensions might be reduced if WLM and similar > photo drives were in future structured less around "national" contests, and > "national" teams. This is a somewhat unusual way to organize activities in > our movement, and I think alternatives might be possible, even as we rely > to some degree on state heritage lists. > > Thanks, > Richard > (User:Pharos) > > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 4:50 AM Bodhisattwa > wrote: > > Totally agreed with Alexey. We are not supposed to judge and sanction > people based on what their governments are doing. Our focus should > completely remain on how to digitally preserve built heritage of our > regions in a better way, keeping aside geopolitical conflicts and > differences. If we want to
[Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Wiki Loves Monuments community conversation: Sunday 21 Jan on handling international competitions during armed conflict
Thanks for the constructive thoughts both here and in the meeting. Richard: I'm not sure this would really 'avoid' the challenge altogether - there would likely still be calls for sites from certain regions to be excluded, or even participants from certain countries. It may be an interesting proposal separately (although there are also other good reasons for having a national approach to begin with - scaling, partners primarily being national and communication practices being some of them) and there might be other reasons to go that route (e.g. it would lower overhead in some regions, and make it easier to be uniform). I think it may be a different conversation. The international team has however been looking for volunteers to pick up a "rest of the world" competition though, so if the idea of a somewhat-global competition strikes you as interesting, that may be an exciting opportunity. As for the conversation, we made some interesting progress, and I think it was complementary to some of the thoughts shared here. I'll give some thoughts to how to structure the conversation going forward. For now, I'll give the floor to the winner announcements soon, and we'll return to this in a few months. Lodewijk On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 1:34 PM Mykola Kozlenko wrote: > Hi Richard, > > This is not really an unusual way: in fact, most of our campaigns are > locally-based because of language and culture barriers. While Commons is > multilingual, most discussions (including this one) happen in English, a > language most people in the world actually don't speak. > > The heritage lists are also not a 'some degree' dependency but a major > one: organising contest without lists will result in a mess of photos that > someone needs to categorise manually. It's not easy to sort pictures from > places you have never seen with descriptions in a language you don't > understand. Thus I can hardly imagine how we can sustainably organise > contests in places where local volunteers don't want to work on them. > > The only international heritage lists that exist are the UNESCO ones. I > can imagine a campaign dedicated to UNESCO world heritage monuments in > different countries. We had such an experience with UNESCO Biosphere > Reserves for Wiki Loves Earth, which was moderately successful (a few > hundred uploads and some interesting places that were not pictured before). > It is something that can be attempted, but of course it cannot really > replace Wiki Loves Monuments with its national contests. > > Mykola (User:NickK) > Wiki Loves Monuments Ukraine & Wiki Loves Earth international team > > *21 січня 2024, 20:09:58, від "Pharos" >: * > > I think some of the tensions might be reduced if WLM and similar > photo drives were in future structured less around "national" contests, and > "national" teams. This is a somewhat unusual way to organize activities in > our movement, and I think alternatives might be possible, even as we rely > to some degree on state heritage lists. > > Thanks, > Richard > (User:Pharos) > > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 4:50 AM Bodhisattwa > wrote: > > Totally agreed with Alexey. We are not supposed to judge and sanction > people based on what their governments are doing. Our focus should > completely remain on how to digitally preserve built heritage of our > regions in a better way, keeping aside geopolitical conflicts and > differences. If we want to drag world politics and play UN here, then the > "international" part of the competition will be gone soon as no country in > this world is a piece of heaven fallen from the sky; geopolitical conflicts > are everywhere, even if they are not visible as wars. > > WLM is a collaborative international project and it should welcome any > country willing to document their heritage. There should be no exception! > > Regards, > Bodhisattwa > > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024, 12:28 Aleksey Chalabyan wrote: > > Dear all, > > I wanted to add my 2 cents, since I'll be at another wikimedia call and > will miss this call (or most of it) and since last time I followed > principle of least drama. > > I am seriously afraid stepping into this territory will open a Pandora's > box with dozens of requests to exclude this or that country, arbitration of > those requests etc, making organisation of WLM, WLE and any other > international cooperation much, much less pleasent and if doable per se. It > will fill more like all-against-all UN session or international court - > then a collaborative, friendly place to make a wiki photo contest to get > more free photos of monuments from every corner of the world. > > Unfortunately, there are many wars and conflicts, and many cultural > genocides. Some get more media coverage, some less. But there will be a > long line of countries to ban if we go there. And if we do - I personally, > will add couple more countries to the top of the list, with a sound proofs > of decades of cultural genocide done by them. > > Also there are countries with great
[Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Wiki Loves Monuments community conversation: Sunday 21 Jan on handling international competitions during armed conflict
Hi Richard, This is not really an unusual way: in fact, most of our campaigns are locally-based because of language and culture barriers. While Commons is multilingual, most discussions (including this one) happen in English, a language most people in the world actually don't speak. The heritage lists are also not a 'some degree' dependency but a major one: organising contest without lists will result in a mess of photos that someone needs to categorise manually. It's not easy to sort pictures from places you have never seen with descriptions in a language you don't understand. Thus I can hardly imagine how we can sustainably organise contests in places where local volunteers don't want to work on them. The only international heritage lists that exist are the UNESCO ones. I can imagine a campaign dedicated to UNESCO world heritage monuments in different countries. We had such an experience with UNESCO Biosphere Reserves for Wiki Loves Earth, which was moderately successful (a few hundred uploads and some interesting places that were not pictured before). It is something that can be attempted, but of course it cannot really replace Wiki Loves Monuments with its national contests. Mykola (User:NickK) Wiki Loves Monuments Ukraine & Wiki Loves Earth international team 21 січня 2024, 20:09:58, від "Pharos" : I think some of the tensions might be reduced if WLM and similar photo drives were in future structured less around "national" contests, and "national" teams. This is a somewhat unusual way to organize activities in our movement, and I think alternatives might be possible, even as we rely to some degree on state heritage lists. Thanks, Richard (User:Pharos) On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 4:50 AM Bodhisattwa wrote: Totally agreed with Alexey. We are not supposed to judge and sanction people based on what their governments are doing. Our focus should completely remain on how to digitally preserve built heritage of our regions in a better way, keeping aside geopolitical conflicts and differences. If we want to drag world politics and play UN here, then the "international" part of the competition will be gone soon as no country in this world is a piece of heaven fallen from the sky; geopolitical conflicts are everywhere, even if they are not visible as wars. WLM is a collaborative international project and it should welcome any country willing to document their heritage. There should be no exception! Regards, Bodhisattwa On Sun, Jan 21, 2024, 12:28 Aleksey Chalabyan wrote: Dear all, I wanted to add my 2 cents, since I'll be at another wikimedia call and will miss this call (or most of it) and since last time I followed principle of least drama. I am seriously afraid stepping into this territory will open a Pandora's box with dozens of requests to exclude this or that country, arbitration of those requests etc, making organisation of WLM, WLE and any other international cooperation much, much less pleasent and if doable per se. It will fill more like all-against-all UN session or international court - then a collaborative, friendly place to make a wiki photo contest to get more free photos of monuments from every corner of the world. Unfortunately, there are many wars and conflicts, and many cultural genocides. Some get more media coverage, some less. But there will be a long line of countries to ban if we go there. And if we do - I personally, will add couple more countries to the top of the list, with a sound proofs of decades of cultural genocide done by them. Also there are countries with great track of preserving monuments, even if those are of another culture/religion, no wars started in centuries, but very poor track record of human rights in general, and let's say woman and LGBT rights in particular. Are those countries "good enough to play with us" or not? How about cases where monuments are preserved but culturally apropriated? How about millitary suppliers and military allies of countries we'll ban? How about countries where UNESCO officials were caught bribed by regimes to cover up acts of cultural genocide? How about UNESCO itself? How far do we go in our Wiki Loves Justice campaign? I mention no country name now on purpose, to preserve comfortable collaborative environment and not make anyone feel like they needs to defend themselves. I believe any true Wikimedian in good standing should feel safe and comfortable here for our international cooperation to be possible. Even if their governments and military do unforgivable and unforgettable crimes - as we speak, or a year, 10 or 100 years ago. That's not how and where we should punish those governments and regimes. And let's be frank they won't care. We'd just go far away from our mission and make our lives worse - less fun and less meaningful, and the only part we'd punish will be victims on the other side. P.S. Sorry for long letter, was short on time. (c) Love and peace,
[Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Wiki Loves Monuments community conversation: Sunday 21 Jan on handling international competitions during armed conflict
Indeed, this is something I thought about proposing at the Office Hours today but we did not get to this point: Making the international part more "individual" and less "team" might help. Sure, the selection of submissions to the international part are made by national juries (who might or might not involve international participants - I believe over the years I was in juries for five different countries at the national competition level, and I am not a citizen of any of them), and locations of the monuments are important, but till some work can be done to emphasize the individual facet of the competition. Best Yaroslav On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 8:09 PM Pharos wrote: > I think some of the tensions might be reduced if WLM and similar > photo drives were in future structured less around "national" contests, and > "national" teams. This is a somewhat unusual way to organize activities in > our movement, and I think alternatives might be possible, even as we rely > to some degree on state heritage lists. > > Thanks, > Richard > (User:Pharos) > > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 4:50 AM Bodhisattwa > wrote: > >> Totally agreed with Alexey. We are not supposed to judge and sanction >> people based on what their governments are doing. Our focus should >> completely remain on how to digitally preserve built heritage of our >> regions in a better way, keeping aside geopolitical conflicts and >> differences. If we want to drag world politics and play UN here, then the >> "international" part of the competition will be gone soon as no country in >> this world is a piece of heaven fallen from the sky; geopolitical conflicts >> are everywhere, even if they are not visible as wars. >> >> WLM is a collaborative international project and it should welcome any >> country willing to document their heritage. There should be no exception! >> >> Regards, >> Bodhisattwa >> >> On Sun, Jan 21, 2024, 12:28 Aleksey Chalabyan >> wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> I wanted to add my 2 cents, since I'll be at another wikimedia call and >>> will miss this call (or most of it) and since last time I followed >>> principle of least drama. >>> >>> I am seriously afraid stepping into this territory will open a Pandora's >>> box with dozens of requests to exclude this or that country, arbitration of >>> those requests etc, making organisation of WLM, WLE and any other >>> international cooperation much, much less pleasent and if doable per se. It >>> will fill more like all-against-all UN session or international court - >>> then a collaborative, friendly place to make a wiki photo contest to get >>> more free photos of monuments from every corner of the world. >>> >>> Unfortunately, there are many wars and conflicts, and many cultural >>> genocides. Some get more media coverage, some less. But there will be a >>> long line of countries to ban if we go there. And if we do - I personally, >>> will add couple more countries to the top of the list, with a sound proofs >>> of decades of cultural genocide done by them. >>> >>> Also there are countries with great track of preserving monuments, even >>> if those are of another culture/religion, no wars started in centuries, but >>> very poor track record of human rights in general, and let's say woman and >>> LGBT rights in particular. Are those countries "good enough to play with >>> us" or not? >>> >>> How about cases where monuments are preserved but culturally >>> apropriated? How about millitary suppliers and military allies of countries >>> we'll ban? How about countries where UNESCO officials were caught bribed by >>> regimes to cover up acts of cultural genocide? How about UNESCO itself? >>> How far do we go in our Wiki Loves Justice campaign? >>> >>> I mention no country name now on purpose, to preserve comfortable >>> collaborative environment and not make anyone feel like they needs to >>> defend themselves. I believe any true Wikimedian in good standing should >>> feel safe and comfortable here for our international cooperation to be >>> possible. Even if their governments and military do unforgivable and >>> unforgettable crimes - as we speak, or a year, 10 or 100 years ago. >>> >>> That's not how and where we should punish those governments and regimes. >>> And let's be frank they won't care. We'd just go far away from our mission >>> and make our lives worse - less fun and less meaningful, and the only part >>> we'd punish will be victims on the other side. >>> >>> P.S. Sorry for long letter, was short on time. (c) >>> >>> Love and peace, >>> Aleksey a.k.a Xelgen >>> >>> 2024 թ. հնվ 21, կիր, 5:07 effe iets anders >>> օգտատերը գրել է․ >>> Hi Illia, thanks for letting us know. I understand the constraints you must be dealing with, and I wish we could have announced this earlier (not limited to your situation - this is desirable for other reasons too). Please know that it was not our intention to announce it last minute, but that we realized too late that
[Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Wiki Loves Monuments community conversation: Sunday 21 Jan on handling international competitions during armed conflict
I think some of the tensions might be reduced if WLM and similar photo drives were in future structured less around "national" contests, and "national" teams. This is a somewhat unusual way to organize activities in our movement, and I think alternatives might be possible, even as we rely to some degree on state heritage lists. Thanks, Richard (User:Pharos) On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 4:50 AM Bodhisattwa wrote: > Totally agreed with Alexey. We are not supposed to judge and sanction > people based on what their governments are doing. Our focus should > completely remain on how to digitally preserve built heritage of our > regions in a better way, keeping aside geopolitical conflicts and > differences. If we want to drag world politics and play UN here, then the > "international" part of the competition will be gone soon as no country in > this world is a piece of heaven fallen from the sky; geopolitical conflicts > are everywhere, even if they are not visible as wars. > > WLM is a collaborative international project and it should welcome any > country willing to document their heritage. There should be no exception! > > Regards, > Bodhisattwa > > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024, 12:28 Aleksey Chalabyan wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> I wanted to add my 2 cents, since I'll be at another wikimedia call and >> will miss this call (or most of it) and since last time I followed >> principle of least drama. >> >> I am seriously afraid stepping into this territory will open a Pandora's >> box with dozens of requests to exclude this or that country, arbitration of >> those requests etc, making organisation of WLM, WLE and any other >> international cooperation much, much less pleasent and if doable per se. It >> will fill more like all-against-all UN session or international court - >> then a collaborative, friendly place to make a wiki photo contest to get >> more free photos of monuments from every corner of the world. >> >> Unfortunately, there are many wars and conflicts, and many cultural >> genocides. Some get more media coverage, some less. But there will be a >> long line of countries to ban if we go there. And if we do - I personally, >> will add couple more countries to the top of the list, with a sound proofs >> of decades of cultural genocide done by them. >> >> Also there are countries with great track of preserving monuments, even >> if those are of another culture/religion, no wars started in centuries, but >> very poor track record of human rights in general, and let's say woman and >> LGBT rights in particular. Are those countries "good enough to play with >> us" or not? >> >> How about cases where monuments are preserved but culturally apropriated? >> How about millitary suppliers and military allies of countries we'll ban? >> How about countries where UNESCO officials were caught bribed by regimes to >> cover up acts of cultural genocide? How about UNESCO itself? >> How far do we go in our Wiki Loves Justice campaign? >> >> I mention no country name now on purpose, to preserve comfortable >> collaborative environment and not make anyone feel like they needs to >> defend themselves. I believe any true Wikimedian in good standing should >> feel safe and comfortable here for our international cooperation to be >> possible. Even if their governments and military do unforgivable and >> unforgettable crimes - as we speak, or a year, 10 or 100 years ago. >> >> That's not how and where we should punish those governments and regimes. >> And let's be frank they won't care. We'd just go far away from our mission >> and make our lives worse - less fun and less meaningful, and the only part >> we'd punish will be victims on the other side. >> >> P.S. Sorry for long letter, was short on time. (c) >> >> Love and peace, >> Aleksey a.k.a Xelgen >> >> 2024 թ. հնվ 21, կիր, 5:07 effe iets anders >> օգտատերը գրել է․ >> >>> Hi Illia, >>> >>> thanks for letting us know. I understand the constraints you must be >>> dealing with, and I wish we could have announced this earlier (not limited >>> to your situation - this is desirable for other reasons too). Please know >>> that it was not our intention to announce it last minute, but that we >>> realized too late that time was running out for this in the way I >>> explained. Hopefully we can indeed better meet the timeliness expectations >>> going forward. >>> >>> Lodewijk >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 1:04 PM Ilya Korniyko >>> wrote: >>> Hi Lodewijk, WLM Ukraine's organizing team is interested in this discussion, but it's difficult to find time for it on such a short notice -- because of the armed conflict most Ukrainian Wikimedians have to simultaneously fit into their agendas their main work, Wikimedia volunteering and activities we have to do because of the war. For example, I have an emergency casualty care training this Sunday, and another team member cannot join because she goes to a training area for drills on the same day.
[Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Wiki Loves Monuments community conversation: Sunday 21 Jan on handling international competitions during armed conflict
Totally agreed with Alexey. We are not supposed to judge and sanction people based on what their governments are doing. Our focus should completely remain on how to digitally preserve built heritage of our regions in a better way, keeping aside geopolitical conflicts and differences. If we want to drag world politics and play UN here, then the "international" part of the competition will be gone soon as no country in this world is a piece of heaven fallen from the sky; geopolitical conflicts are everywhere, even if they are not visible as wars. WLM is a collaborative international project and it should welcome any country willing to document their heritage. There should be no exception! Regards, Bodhisattwa On Sun, Jan 21, 2024, 12:28 Aleksey Chalabyan wrote: > Dear all, > > I wanted to add my 2 cents, since I'll be at another wikimedia call and > will miss this call (or most of it) and since last time I followed > principle of least drama. > > I am seriously afraid stepping into this territory will open a Pandora's > box with dozens of requests to exclude this or that country, arbitration of > those requests etc, making organisation of WLM, WLE and any other > international cooperation much, much less pleasent and if doable per se. It > will fill more like all-against-all UN session or international court - > then a collaborative, friendly place to make a wiki photo contest to get > more free photos of monuments from every corner of the world. > > Unfortunately, there are many wars and conflicts, and many cultural > genocides. Some get more media coverage, some less. But there will be a > long line of countries to ban if we go there. And if we do - I personally, > will add couple more countries to the top of the list, with a sound proofs > of decades of cultural genocide done by them. > > Also there are countries with great track of preserving monuments, even if > those are of another culture/religion, no wars started in centuries, but > very poor track record of human rights in general, and let's say woman and > LGBT rights in particular. Are those countries "good enough to play with > us" or not? > > How about cases where monuments are preserved but culturally apropriated? > How about millitary suppliers and military allies of countries we'll ban? > How about countries where UNESCO officials were caught bribed by regimes to > cover up acts of cultural genocide? How about UNESCO itself? > How far do we go in our Wiki Loves Justice campaign? > > I mention no country name now on purpose, to preserve comfortable > collaborative environment and not make anyone feel like they needs to > defend themselves. I believe any true Wikimedian in good standing should > feel safe and comfortable here for our international cooperation to be > possible. Even if their governments and military do unforgivable and > unforgettable crimes - as we speak, or a year, 10 or 100 years ago. > > That's not how and where we should punish those governments and regimes. > And let's be frank they won't care. We'd just go far away from our mission > and make our lives worse - less fun and less meaningful, and the only part > we'd punish will be victims on the other side. > > P.S. Sorry for long letter, was short on time. (c) > > Love and peace, > Aleksey a.k.a Xelgen > > 2024 թ. հնվ 21, կիր, 5:07 effe iets anders > օգտատերը գրել է․ > >> Hi Illia, >> >> thanks for letting us know. I understand the constraints you must be >> dealing with, and I wish we could have announced this earlier (not limited >> to your situation - this is desirable for other reasons too). Please know >> that it was not our intention to announce it last minute, but that we >> realized too late that time was running out for this in the way I >> explained. Hopefully we can indeed better meet the timeliness expectations >> going forward. >> >> Lodewijk >> >> On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 1:04 PM Ilya Korniyko wrote: >> >>> Hi Lodewijk, >>> >>> WLM Ukraine's organizing team is interested in this discussion, but it's >>> difficult to find time for it on such a short notice -- because of the >>> armed conflict most Ukrainian Wikimedians have to simultaneously fit into >>> their agendas their main work, Wikimedia volunteering and activities we >>> have to do because of the war. For example, I have an emergency casualty >>> care training this Sunday, and another team member cannot join because she >>> goes to a training area for drills on the same day. >>> >>> We ask that you take these circumstances into consideration and notify >>> us in advance in the future. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Illia >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 2:23 AM effe iets anders < >>> effeietsand...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Hi all, (with apologies for the delay in sending this announcement) This email discusses a sensitive topic of armed conflict, and may contain triggers for some of our community members. While we appreciate your input, please prioritize your own mental
[Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Wiki Loves Monuments community conversation: Sunday 21 Jan on handling international competitions during armed conflict
Thank you, Alexey for your words. I can also add to that the fact that people doing crimes against humanity and people photodocumenting the preciousness of our large planet are mostly different people. I can understand the feelings that can form in one's head towards anything connected to a specific country, but that is not what Wikimedia Movement is about. -- Nikolai Bulykin (User:Красный). воскресенье, 21 января 2024г., 12:59 +06:00 от Aleksey Chalabyan xelgen...@gmail.com : >Dear all, > >I wanted to add my 2 cents, since I'll be at another wikimedia call and will >miss this call (or most of it) and since last time I followed principle of >least drama. > >I am seriously afraid stepping into this territory will open a Pandora's box >with dozens of requests to exclude this or that country, arbitration of those >requests etc, making organisation of WLM, WLE and any other international >cooperation much, much less pleasent and if doable per se. It will fill more >like all-against-all UN session or international court - then a collaborative, >friendly place to make a wiki photo contest to get more free photos of >monuments from every corner of the world. > >Unfortunately, there are many wars and conflicts, and many cultural genocides. >Some get more media coverage, some less. But there will be a long line of >countries to ban if we go there. And if we do - I personally, will add couple >more countries to the top of the list, with a sound proofs of decades of >cultural genocide done by them. > >Also there are countries with great track of preserving monuments, even if >those are of another culture/religion, no wars started in centuries, but very >poor track record of human rights in general, and let's say woman and LGBT >rights in particular. Are those countries "good enough to play with us" or >not? > >How about cases where monuments are preserved but culturally apropriated? How >about millitary suppliers and military allies of countries we'll ban? How >about countries where UNESCO officials were caught bribed by regimes to cover >up acts of cultural genocide? How about UNESCO itself? >How far do we go in our Wiki Loves Justice campaign? > >I mention no country name now on purpose, to preserve comfortable >collaborative environment and not make anyone feel like they needs to defend >themselves. I believe any true Wikimedian in good standing should feel safe >and comfortable here for our international cooperation to be possible. Even if >their governments and military do unforgivable and unforgettable crimes - as >we speak, or a year, 10 or 100 years ago. > >That's not how and where we should punish those governments and regimes. And >let's be frank they won't care. We'd just go far away from our mission and >make our lives worse - less fun and less meaningful, and the only part we'd >punish will be victims on the other side. > >P.S. Sorry for long letter, was short on time. (c) > >Love and peace, >Aleksey a.k.a Xelgen >2024 թ. հնվ 21, կիր, 5:07 effe iets anders < effeietsand...@gmail.com> >օգտատերը գրել է․ >>Hi Illia, >> >>thanks for letting us know. I understand the constraints you must be dealing >>with, and I wish we could have announced this earlier (not limited to your >>situation - this is desirable for other reasons too). Please know that it was >>not our intention to announce it last minute, but that we realized too late >>that time was running out for this in the way I explained. Hopefully we can >>indeed better meet the timeliness expectations going forward. >> >>Lodewijk >>On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 1:04PM Ilya Korniyko < intra...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>Hi Lodewijk, >>> >>>WLM Ukraine's organizing team is interested in this discussion, but it's >>>difficult to find time for it on such a short notice -- because of the armed >>>conflict most Ukrainian Wikimedians have to simultaneously fit into their >>>agendas their main work, Wikimedia volunteering and activities we have to do >>>because of the war. For example, I have an emergency casualty care training >>>this Sunday, and another team member cannot join because she goes to a >>>training area for drills on the same day. >>> >>>We ask that you take these circumstances into consideration and notify us in >>>advance in the future. >>> >>>Regards, >>>Illia >>> >>>On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 2:23AM effe iets anders < effeietsand...@gmail.com> >>>wrote: Hi all, (with apologies for the delay in sending this announcement) This email discusses a sensitive topic of armed conflict, and may contain triggers for some of our community members. While we appreciate your input, please prioritize your own mental wellbeing and don't feel obligated to respond or participate. I have tried to frame this as sensitively as possible, but welcome constructive suggestions on how to do this better off-list. Summary : On Sunday 21 January (08:00 PST, 16:00 UTC), the international
[Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Wiki Loves Monuments community conversation: Sunday 21 Jan on handling international competitions during armed conflict
Dear all, I wanted to add my 2 cents, since I'll be at another wikimedia call and will miss this call (or most of it) and since last time I followed principle of least drama. I am seriously afraid stepping into this territory will open a Pandora's box with dozens of requests to exclude this or that country, arbitration of those requests etc, making organisation of WLM, WLE and any other international cooperation much, much less pleasent and if doable per se. It will fill more like all-against-all UN session or international court - then a collaborative, friendly place to make a wiki photo contest to get more free photos of monuments from every corner of the world. Unfortunately, there are many wars and conflicts, and many cultural genocides. Some get more media coverage, some less. But there will be a long line of countries to ban if we go there. And if we do - I personally, will add couple more countries to the top of the list, with a sound proofs of decades of cultural genocide done by them. Also there are countries with great track of preserving monuments, even if those are of another culture/religion, no wars started in centuries, but very poor track record of human rights in general, and let's say woman and LGBT rights in particular. Are those countries "good enough to play with us" or not? How about cases where monuments are preserved but culturally apropriated? How about millitary suppliers and military allies of countries we'll ban? How about countries where UNESCO officials were caught bribed by regimes to cover up acts of cultural genocide? How about UNESCO itself? How far do we go in our Wiki Loves Justice campaign? I mention no country name now on purpose, to preserve comfortable collaborative environment and not make anyone feel like they needs to defend themselves. I believe any true Wikimedian in good standing should feel safe and comfortable here for our international cooperation to be possible. Even if their governments and military do unforgivable and unforgettable crimes - as we speak, or a year, 10 or 100 years ago. That's not how and where we should punish those governments and regimes. And let's be frank they won't care. We'd just go far away from our mission and make our lives worse - less fun and less meaningful, and the only part we'd punish will be victims on the other side. P.S. Sorry for long letter, was short on time. (c) Love and peace, Aleksey a.k.a Xelgen 2024 թ. հնվ 21, կիր, 5:07 effe iets anders օգտատերը գրել է․ > Hi Illia, > > thanks for letting us know. I understand the constraints you must be > dealing with, and I wish we could have announced this earlier (not limited > to your situation - this is desirable for other reasons too). Please know > that it was not our intention to announce it last minute, but that we > realized too late that time was running out for this in the way I > explained. Hopefully we can indeed better meet the timeliness expectations > going forward. > > Lodewijk > > On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 1:04 PM Ilya Korniyko wrote: > >> Hi Lodewijk, >> >> WLM Ukraine's organizing team is interested in this discussion, but it's >> difficult to find time for it on such a short notice -- because of the >> armed conflict most Ukrainian Wikimedians have to simultaneously fit into >> their agendas their main work, Wikimedia volunteering and activities we >> have to do because of the war. For example, I have an emergency casualty >> care training this Sunday, and another team member cannot join because she >> goes to a training area for drills on the same day. >> >> We ask that you take these circumstances into consideration and notify us >> in advance in the future. >> >> Regards, >> Illia >> >> On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 2:23 AM effe iets anders < >> effeietsand...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> (with apologies for the delay in sending this announcement) >>> >>> This email discusses a sensitive topic of armed conflict, and may >>> contain triggers for some of our community members. While we appreciate >>> your input, please prioritize your own mental wellbeing and don't feel >>> obligated to respond or participate. I have tried to frame this as >>> sensitively as possible, but welcome constructive suggestions on how to do >>> this better off-list. >>> >>> Summary: On Sunday 21 January (08:00 PST, 16:00 UTC), the international >>> team of Wiki Loves Monuments will organize an office hour/community >>> conversation on: How should an international federated photo competition >>> like WLM handle national teams, international finalists and communication >>> in the case of geopolitical armed conflict. We will announce the link >>> later, and you can register here: >>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2023/Office_hour >>> >>> >>> Topic: In the past years, our communities have been confronted with the >>> question how to deal with a number of geopolitical armed conflicts. This >>> question came up in the past years in a
[Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Wiki Loves Monuments community conversation: Sunday 21 Jan on handling international competitions during armed conflict
Hi Illia, thanks for letting us know. I understand the constraints you must be dealing with, and I wish we could have announced this earlier (not limited to your situation - this is desirable for other reasons too). Please know that it was not our intention to announce it last minute, but that we realized too late that time was running out for this in the way I explained. Hopefully we can indeed better meet the timeliness expectations going forward. Lodewijk On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 1:04 PM Ilya Korniyko wrote: > Hi Lodewijk, > > WLM Ukraine's organizing team is interested in this discussion, but it's > difficult to find time for it on such a short notice -- because of the > armed conflict most Ukrainian Wikimedians have to simultaneously fit into > their agendas their main work, Wikimedia volunteering and activities we > have to do because of the war. For example, I have an emergency casualty > care training this Sunday, and another team member cannot join because she > goes to a training area for drills on the same day. > > We ask that you take these circumstances into consideration and notify us > in advance in the future. > > Regards, > Illia > > On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 2:23 AM effe iets anders > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> (with apologies for the delay in sending this announcement) >> >> This email discusses a sensitive topic of armed conflict, and may contain >> triggers for some of our community members. While we appreciate your input, >> please prioritize your own mental wellbeing and don't feel obligated to >> respond or participate. I have tried to frame this as sensitively as >> possible, but welcome constructive suggestions on how to do this better >> off-list. >> >> Summary: On Sunday 21 January (08:00 PST, 16:00 UTC), the international >> team of Wiki Loves Monuments will organize an office hour/community >> conversation on: How should an international federated photo competition >> like WLM handle national teams, international finalists and communication >> in the case of geopolitical armed conflict. We will announce the link >> later, and you can register here: >> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2023/Office_hour >> >> >> Topic: In the past years, our communities have been confronted with the >> question how to deal with a number of geopolitical armed conflicts. This >> question came up in the past years in a few different ways: whether photos >> of heritage from certain countries should be allowed to be represented or >> compete in international competitions like Wiki Loves Monuments, whether >> and how photos of heritage in disputed areas can participate (especially >> when that dispute becomes an armed conflict) and there are probably more >> ways ahead that various armed conflicts can make an international >> competition and communication about the competition complex. There is no >> question whether human and cultural destruction is desirable, and every war >> is likely one too many. >> >> Why now: It is particularly hard to discuss these sensitive topics when >> they are current: it is a painful conversation for everyone to have, >> especially because the people who are living through the real-life >> consequences are given an additional burden of engaging in these >> discussions, under the pressure of time. >> >> For this reason I believe it would be helpful to discuss this topic >> without focusing on a specific conflict - but rather to discuss principles. >> How would we, generally speaking, international competitions such as Wiki >> Loves Monuments like to be influenced by armed conflict? Are there >> guidelines that they could maintain? At this point, we don't know who the >> winners of Wiki Loves Monuments are, and we can still have an abstract >> conversation. I don't expect this conversation to conclude right away, but >> hope that we can continue it in a few months after the dust of the winning >> images has settled. >> >> While this is already very soon, we have settled on Sunday 21 January, >> 16:00 UTC to avoid getting too close to the announcement of international >> winners. >> >> Framing: Some questions that come to mind as useful conversation >> starters would include: >> >> * Under what conditions could or should a national team be disqualified >> from participating in an international federated activity such as WLM? >> >> * If yes, who should make the decision whether to disqualify, and using >> what criteria? Who should they consult? >> >> * Under what conditions could or should the national submissions be >> disqualified, if a national competition already has taken place? >> >> * Should the international team make efforts to not appear to support an >> armed conflict when communicating about the competition, or even previous >> events? What are some guidelines that they could follow? >> >> I would invite others to contribute in framing a constructive >> conversation (publicly or privately - when in doubt, just email me >>
[Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Wiki Loves Monuments community conversation: Sunday 21 Jan on handling international competitions during armed conflict
Hi Lodewijk, WLM Ukraine's organizing team is interested in this discussion, but it's difficult to find time for it on such a short notice -- because of the armed conflict most Ukrainian Wikimedians have to simultaneously fit into their agendas their main work, Wikimedia volunteering and activities we have to do because of the war. For example, I have an emergency casualty care training this Sunday, and another team member cannot join because she goes to a training area for drills on the same day. We ask that you take these circumstances into consideration and notify us in advance in the future. Regards, Illia On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 2:23 AM effe iets anders wrote: > Hi all, > > (with apologies for the delay in sending this announcement) > > This email discusses a sensitive topic of armed conflict, and may contain > triggers for some of our community members. While we appreciate your input, > please prioritize your own mental wellbeing and don't feel obligated to > respond or participate. I have tried to frame this as sensitively as > possible, but welcome constructive suggestions on how to do this better > off-list. > > Summary: On Sunday 21 January (08:00 PST, 16:00 UTC), the international > team of Wiki Loves Monuments will organize an office hour/community > conversation on: How should an international federated photo competition > like WLM handle national teams, international finalists and communication > in the case of geopolitical armed conflict. We will announce the link > later, and you can register here: > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2023/Office_hour > > > Topic: In the past years, our communities have been confronted with the > question how to deal with a number of geopolitical armed conflicts. This > question came up in the past years in a few different ways: whether photos > of heritage from certain countries should be allowed to be represented or > compete in international competitions like Wiki Loves Monuments, whether > and how photos of heritage in disputed areas can participate (especially > when that dispute becomes an armed conflict) and there are probably more > ways ahead that various armed conflicts can make an international > competition and communication about the competition complex. There is no > question whether human and cultural destruction is desirable, and every war > is likely one too many. > > Why now: It is particularly hard to discuss these sensitive topics when > they are current: it is a painful conversation for everyone to have, > especially because the people who are living through the real-life > consequences are given an additional burden of engaging in these > discussions, under the pressure of time. > > For this reason I believe it would be helpful to discuss this topic > without focusing on a specific conflict - but rather to discuss principles. > How would we, generally speaking, international competitions such as Wiki > Loves Monuments like to be influenced by armed conflict? Are there > guidelines that they could maintain? At this point, we don't know who the > winners of Wiki Loves Monuments are, and we can still have an abstract > conversation. I don't expect this conversation to conclude right away, but > hope that we can continue it in a few months after the dust of the winning > images has settled. > > While this is already very soon, we have settled on Sunday 21 January, > 16:00 UTC to avoid getting too close to the announcement of international > winners. > > Framing: Some questions that come to mind as useful conversation starters > would include: > > * Under what conditions could or should a national team be disqualified > from participating in an international federated activity such as WLM? > > * If yes, who should make the decision whether to disqualify, and using > what criteria? Who should they consult? > > * Under what conditions could or should the national submissions be > disqualified, if a national competition already has taken place? > > * Should the international team make efforts to not appear to support an > armed conflict when communicating about the competition, or even previous > events? What are some guidelines that they could follow? > > I would invite others to contribute in framing a constructive conversation > (publicly or privately - when in doubt, just email me privately). > > Conversation timeline: We want this to be the start of a constructive > community conversation with national organizers, international organizers > and other community members who feel they can constructively contribute. We > welcome contributions from organizers of other similar international > competitions/activities. The conversation will be in English but if there > is sufficient interest, we can see if we can organize translation resources > in future conversations. You can sign up here: > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2023/Office_hour > . Please do sign up, in case we have
