Re: [Wikimania-l] Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016

[Joseph Fox]

Alright, thank you for the clarification :)

Grazie,
Joe

On Sunday, 27 March 2016, Iolanda Pensa  wrote:

> dear Joe and all
> > Il giorno 27 mar 2016, alle ore 15:59, Joseph Fox <
> josephfoxw...@gmail.com > ha scritto:
> >
> > So I think the question is: will the association be disbanded come the
> end of Wikimania? Or do members have to formally request to leave on June
> 27?
> Before closing the association we will obviously close the budget; it
> would not be correct to disband the association without ending the fiscal
> year.
> The membership is for one year (2016) and anyone can leave the association
> earlier than 31 December 2016 anytime.
> iolanda
>
>
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > On Sunday, 27 March 2016, Federico Leva (Nemo)  > wrote:
> > Bohdan Melnychuk, 26/03/2016 22:06:
> > Erm, Italian law you mean? Unfortunately and unsurprisingly, I am
> > unfamiliar with it
> >
> > So you will ask for a translation of the entire Italian legislation at
> the airport before passing the gate?
> >
> > > I still don't think we've received a good answer to the question of
> > > whether this is a membership in perpetuity or it is a time-limited
> > > membership
> >
> > Time-limited membership is forbidden by the law, IIRC. "Membership in
> perpetuity" also doesn't exist for any common definition of "perpetuity".
> One is member until
> > * the association is disbanded, or
> > * the member leaves, or
> > * the member qualifies for automatic reasons (e.g. death), or
> > * the member is expelled.
> >
> > Nemo
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimania-l mailing list
> > Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sent from a mobile communication device.
> > ___
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> > Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

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Re: [Wikimania-l] Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016

[Iolanda Pensa]

dear Joe and all
> Il giorno 27 mar 2016, alle ore 15:59, Joseph Fox  
> ha scritto:
> 
> So I think the question is: will the association be disbanded come the end of 
> Wikimania? Or do members have to formally request to leave on June 27?
Before closing the association we will obviously close the budget; it would not 
be correct to disband the association without ending the fiscal year. 
The membership is for one year (2016) and anyone can leave the association 
earlier than 31 December 2016 anytime.
iolanda


> 
> Joe
> 
> On Sunday, 27 March 2016, Federico Leva (Nemo)  wrote:
> Bohdan Melnychuk, 26/03/2016 22:06:
> Erm, Italian law you mean? Unfortunately and unsurprisingly, I am
> unfamiliar with it
> 
> So you will ask for a translation of the entire Italian legislation at the 
> airport before passing the gate?
> 
> > I still don't think we've received a good answer to the question of
> > whether this is a membership in perpetuity or it is a time-limited
> > membership
> 
> Time-limited membership is forbidden by the law, IIRC. "Membership in 
> perpetuity" also doesn't exist for any common definition of "perpetuity". One 
> is member until
> * the association is disbanded, or
> * the member leaves, or
> * the member qualifies for automatic reasons (e.g. death), or
> * the member is expelled.
> 
> Nemo
> 
> ___
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sent from a mobile communication device.
> ___
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


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Re: [Wikimania-l] Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Bohdan Melnychuk, 26/03/2016 20:50:

That being said, what pops into my mind as a not-far-past large
Wikimedia event in Italy is the Wikimedia Conference which was held in
Milan a couple of years ago — was there the same model being used? If
not, how did they do it?


That's an entirely different model, for instance it's entirely paid by 
attending organisations rather than individuals. Anyway, Wikimedia 
Italia is an asociazione di promozione sociale (APS) which has way less 
legal restrictions than the Wikimania 2016 fiscal sponsor (ONLUS).



Please do translate the documents as fast as possible. Not being able to
read them is the thing which prevents me to fill the registration, and
that is a major bottleneck for me. I see that some work has already
started on Wikimania 2016 wiki:
https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Associazione_Comitato_Wikimania_Esino_Lario_2016
https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Informativa_per_la_privacy_dei_volontari
, but it really needs to be finished ASAP.


These are really standard documents, they say almost nothing that is not 
already written in the law. The only interesting articles are 3 and 21 
in the bylaws, would you be happier if I translated those?



Sadly, I also cannot stop myself from voicing a thought which is not
helpful in any way when the situation is as it is already, but it could
be something to lessons learnt section of it all, in my opinion. I do
believe that such circumstances as compulsory enlisting of, I guess,
1000+ people into an NGO as a prerequisite of running the event is not
something to omit while the very bidding process.


I certainly agree. Considering that the law changed on December 2015, 
that's hardly something to blame on the organisers. I cannot be more 
ashamed of my own national parliament and I hope for national 
sovereignities to be disbanded as soon as possible in the EU, but that's 
quite far on the horizon.


Nemo

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Re: [Wikimania-l] Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016

[Bohdan Melnychuk]

Hello, /* This email partly duplicates the email sent but never delivered, needing list admin approval due to its size. In case that one will be delivered after all you know why I've sent two now */ As the thread regrettably sprouted and thrived here rather than onwiki, I'll reply here too. First of all, I thank Iolanda and all the others for their replies. Unfortunately, I still have my own concerns as well as I share some mentioned by the others. In particular, I also believe that the arguments voiced rather clarify why there is a need in NGO in general but not why each and every participant needs to become its part. I never doubted the general need of an organisation for running the event, but the proposed model seems rather weird to me. Cristians' reply even appals me a little bit. You need to become a member of (temporary) NGOs in order order to attend events like concerts in Italy? Is it that and NGO can organize an event only for its members? If this is the reason, you can tell us that, we are not aware of the legal circumstances in Italy from the outside of it, even if that is something routine for Italians. That being said, what pops into my mind as a not-far-past large Wikimedia event in Italy is the Wikimedia Conference which was held in Milan a couple of years ago — was there the same model being used? If not, how did they do it? I also share the concern raised as to what people who cannot join organisations freely (for any reason) have to do in the situation. We are too diverse to neglect this. Fortunately, it is not the case for me, I am neither lawfully prevented from joining orgs, nor I am opposed to do so, but I have to insist on translation of the organisation documents to being provided. Sorry, Google Translate as you proposed, cannot even be an option. First of all, not all of the documents are digitized yet, so I will need to spend some time to either retype or OCR the texts of those, but even if I do so, as well as for those which are already in copyable format, machine translation is not the level of quality you want when dealing with legal documents. The text might as well say that I forsake my holy soul and I will not even know it. There might be a funny part to it, but actually that's rather impolite on your part, guys. Please do translate the documents as fast as possible. Not being able to read them is the thing which prevents me to fill the registration, and that is a major bottleneck for me. I see that some work has already started on Wikimania 2016 wiki:    https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Associazione_Comitato_Wikimania_Esino_Lario_2016    https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Informativa_per_la_privacy_dei_volontari, but it really needs to be finished ASAP. Sadly, I also cannot stop myself from voicing a thought which is not helpful in any way when the situation is as it is already, but it could be something to lessons learnt section of it all, in my opinion. I do believe that such circumstances as compulsory enlisting of, I guess, 1000+ people into an NGO as a prerequisite of running the event is not something to omit while the very bidding process. Yours,--Base___
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016

[Florence Devouard]

My own grain of salt as well

A few months ago, Wikimedia France was looking for an african wikipedian 
to facilitate an edit-a-thon in Africa as part of one of WM FR projects. 
Wikimedia France was supporting his travelling costs to the edit-a-thon 
place. A volunteer showed up, willing to do it. He lived in a nearby 
country.


When it came to reimburse his travel costs, Wikimedia France asked him 
to become a member of Wikimedia France to do so. The wikipedian was 
perplex about this request and asked me what I thought. I was perplex 
about this request as well and asked explanation. I got it and it really 
made sense to me.


The main argument is insurance. If an association "pays" (hire) a 
consultant/freelancer to facilitate an edit-a-thon, the person - as a 
professional - normally is covered by his own professionnal insurance. 
So if anything happens during the edit-a-thon, his insurance will cover 
this. But if the person providing the training is a volunteer, it is 
VERY likely that he has no insurance to cover anything that might 
happen. A personal insurance would probably not cover the situation. 
Only a professional insurance could. If the trainer is not covered and 
something happen, since the event is organized by Wikimedia France, the 
"victim" would turn toward Wikimedia France.


Of course Wikimedia France has an insurance but the insurance needs to 
be bordered. It can not cover anything, anyone, in all situations. And 
one of the easiest border is... membership. A contract can be drawn that 
covers members whilst they are participating to an event organized by 
Wikimedia France. A contract that would cover what could happen to 
anyone showing up at an event organized by Wikimedia France is a 
different story.


So the best way recommanded by interested parties and councillors is 
that any person reimbursed for an action done as part of Wikimedia 
France activities should be a member of the association. As such, he is 
covered by Wikimedia France insurance.


Risker statement "The Wikimedia movement has openly embraced the lack of 
requirement to identify or create an account/membership to participate 
since day one of
its existence." is actually... not correct. A lot of the activity of the 
Wikimedia mouvement go through participation to a User Group or a 
Wikimedia Chapter or various Thematic Organisations. And identification 
and joining as member are actually required in those cases.
Also... identification is also required to join various online "tasks 
forces" such as steward or OTRS agent.


Flo


Le 18/03/16 09:48, Gabriel Thullen a écrit :

I will add my grain of salt to this discussion.
When I was young, and I was traveling a lot, I would stay in Youth 
Hostels. Membership was mandatory.
Things have changed a bit, Youth Hostels now call themselves 
"Hostelling International" and in most places membership is no longer 
mandatory. But members (of any national organization) get all sorts of 
discounts and other perks.


I do not understand what the problem is if a membership is required in 
order to attend Wikimania. Does anybody have a Real Life example where 
such a membership has posed a problem ? Or are we just kibitzing to 
pass the time until June ?


Gabe

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 2:43 AM, Cristian Consonni 
> wrote:


Hi,

2016-03-17 23:55 GMT+01:00 Risker >:
> Nemo, it's not standard practice. I've been to four or five
wikimanias and
> never had to join an association to go there. I have never had
to join an
> association to attend any other Wikimedia-related conference,
session, or
> activity. The Wikimedia movement has openly embraced the lack of
requirement
> to identify or create an account/membership to participate since
day one of
> its existence.  The budget of Wikimania should be published
onwiki, it
> should be transparent (to use the current buzzword) to everyone,
and nobody
> should have to pay money in order to find out its budget.

Before we get dragged too much into the philosophical question of what
being Truly Wikimedian (TM) really means I would like to point out a
little more of the context, with the disclaimer that: (1) I am not a
lawyer and (2) I am not/was not part of the group that made the
specific decision of setting up the association (3) I hope that
Iolanda and the team can find a solution to accommodate any specific
need.

Here some context:

(a) When you arrive in Italy if you stay for more than 48 hours, the
person/organization hosting you (regardless of your citizenship, this
applies to Italian citizens as well if they are staying in some place
that is not their habitual residence) must communicate within 8 days
your presence and your data to the local Questura (basically, the
government branch managing the 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016

[Lodewijk]

Hi Iolanda,

As also indicated by others, I don't see the overlap with staying at the
Hilton. Joining an association involves also signing up with the bylaws,
which is a whole extra set of lines of text to agree to (there are already
3 or 4 other sets of disclaimers I have to agree with) - even in a language
I don't speak. It means I join a legal person, which may or may not make me
liable (I don't know Italian law), which may or may not mean I have to
declare it with an employer etc. It has real world implications. It makes
me somewhat jointly responsible for the Wikimania budget.

While I don't like it per se, I can live with it being the default. My
question was though, is it possible to make an exception when people have
reasons not to want to join the association. If they foresee problems in
their specific circumstance, can they email someone and get an exception?

I can see why you want to have an association. I can see why you may want
people to join it. I don't see why /everyone/ must join it.

Lodewijk

On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 9:43 AM, Iolanda Pensa  wrote:

> There are no other solutions.
>
> Just to understand the logic behind it:
> If you go to the hilton you pay the hilton and you receive a receipt from
> this company. It is your decision if you are ok in paying that company and
> to use its service.
> In the case of Esino Lario you join an association, since we are not the
> hilton, we are not a company and we are managing the event with volunteers
> and a completely different structure to make a 761 village capable of
> hosting a quite large event without being structured to do so (we are
> literally creating most of the things from scratches). The aim of the
> association is to manage events and specifically Wikimania. Once the event
> is over the association will have 0 budget (used to cover with the income
> received from the registrations the expenses related to the
> members-participants); the association and the membership – as the name of
> the association clearly communicates - is meant for Wikimania 2016. A
> committee would have been an easier structure (we initially registered it
> as a committee) but this December 2015, in Italy committee do not exist any
> longer as registered institutions (but we want an officially registered
> institution to make everything clear and correct even if of course - as
> many of you know - it is complex and longer than doing things informally).
>
> It would have been nice to have Wikimedia Italia managing all this, but in
> 2014 Wikimedia Italia decided that it was too complicated and they did not
> have enough staff to do it.
> So in Esino Lario we applied for fundings through Associazione Amici del
> Museo delle Grigne Onlus (an association of volunteers without staff)
> and we established this new association to make the management and the
> accountability of Wikimania possible, transparent and correct (also in this
> case an association of volunteers without staff).
>
> This choice was thought through and please do not hesitate to ask any
> further question.
> thanks
> iolanda
>
> Il giorno 15 mar 2016, alle ore 22:29, Lodewijk <
> lodew...@effeietsanders.org> ha scritto:
>
> If membership is required to be a participant under this structure, such a
> solution would require all participants to become a member of Wikimedia
> Italia. Which is maybe less ideal than becoming member of something that is
> meant to be temporary.
>
> Still it is an odd situation to be honest... Iolanda: are there solutions
> for people who don't want to become a member, or cannot become a member
> because of their job etc? Perhaps at a higher fee if necessary (not sure if
> this construction gives tax benefits etc)
>
> Lodewijk
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 9:31 PM, Michael Peel  wrote:
>
>> Couldn't Wikimedia Italia do this?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike
>>
>> On 15 Mar 2016, at 11:44, Iolanda Pensa  wrote:
>>
>> Here is the explanation of why we created a Committee which is an
>> association managing Wikimania[1].
>>
>> I’ll add the answers also online:
>> 1. we needed an institution managing the income from the registration and
>> the expenses which involve a very large number of people (priviate, not
>> only companies); the institution we established is a non profit (it doesn’t
>> share the income among anyone), it is managed by volunteers with experience
>> in accounting and it is a specific institution with a separate bank account
>> from Associazione Amici del Museo delle Grigne Onlus (which as an onlus is
>> not the appropriate institution).
>> 2. we created an association according to the advice of experts in
>> associations and management. since we have a non profit nature, associating
>> the participants for the event is the solution which has been chosen as the
>> only suitable to allow us to collect the payments and to reimburse the
>> flats and to pay the other expenses linked to food, 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016

[ZOKIDIN .]

   - Due to global vandalism Никита-Родин-2002
   
,
   my account User:ZOKIDIN@global
    locked globally
   wikipedia. It's not me. Global Vandalism The list below badboy user Nikita.
   For God's sake, help me please.

I good user. Be good, please.

2016-03-16 16:34 GMT+04:00 Risker :

> Iolanda, I can understand entirely that the group organizing Wikimania
> would need to set up an association in order for it to conduct business.
>
> That does not explain why attendees are forced to join the association.
> Your comparison with the Hilton is very poor:  I do not have to become  a
> member of the Hilton in order to stay at the Hilton and pay them money.
>
> The Wikimedia movement has succeeded without ever becoming a membership
> organization, without requiring registration, without expecting people to
> pay dues (even if that money is put back into the projects right away).
> Requiring people to join is almost the antithesis of what being Wikimedian
> is all about. Requiring membership can be a serious matter for people
> outside of Italy/Europe, particularly as the type and duration of
> membership is not properly described.  Some governments and employers
> require reporting of *all* types of memberships - and those requirements
> tend to be in countries where such membership could put people at risk, or
> subject them to questioning.  I am certain you can find a way to do this
> without requiring that attendees become members.
>
> I have been finding myself very demotivated to come to this Wikimania -
> which is a pity, as I have been enthusiastic about the last four or five
> that I've attended, and even now three months from the event and with
> vacation days booked, I still can't bring myself to register.  The choice
> of location, the inflexible and low quality of accommodations, the
> arbitrary decision to severely limit participation by WMF staff in the
> conference proper (without properly understanding that this is a major cost
> to the movement since so many developers will have to attend the hackathon
> beforehand in order for it to be successful),  the decision to put emphasis
> on posters instead of presentations (despite the fact that well-presented
> posters usually cost between three and twenty times as much as a
> single-person presentation) this does not seem like a Wikimedia event
> to me at all.  Every time I start to feel even slightly enthusiastic,
> there's another thing that comes up.
>
> I still can't bring myself to register.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
>
>
>
> On 16 March 2016 at 04:43, Iolanda Pensa  wrote:
>
>> There are no other solutions.
>>
>> Just to understand the logic behind it:
>> If you go to the hilton you pay the hilton and you receive a receipt from
>> this company. It is your decision if you are ok in paying that company and
>> to use its service.
>> In the case of Esino Lario you join an association, since we are not the
>> hilton, we are not a company and we are managing the event with volunteers
>> and a completely different structure to make a 761 village capable of
>> hosting a quite large event without being structured to do so (we are
>> literally creating most of the things from scratches). The aim of the
>> association is to manage events and specifically Wikimania. Once the event
>> is over the association will have 0 budget (used to cover with the income
>> received from the registrations the expenses related to the
>> members-participants); the association and the membership – as the name of
>> the association clearly communicates - is meant for Wikimania 2016. A
>> committee would have been an easier structure (we initially registered it
>> as a committee) but this December 2015, in Italy committee do not exist any
>> longer as registered institutions (but we want an officially registered
>> institution to make everything clear and correct even if of course - as
>> many of you know - it is complex and longer than doing things informally).
>>
>> It would have been nice to have Wikimedia Italia managing all this, but
>> in 2014 Wikimedia Italia decided that it was too complicated and they did
>> not have enough staff to do it.
>> So in Esino Lario we applied for fundings through Associazione Amici del
>> Museo delle Grigne Onlus (an association of volunteers without staff)
>> and we established this new association to make the management and the
>> accountability of Wikimania possible, transparent and correct (also in this
>> case an association of volunteers without staff).
>>
>> This choice was thought through and please do not hesitate to ask any
>> further question.
>> thanks
>> iolanda
>>
>> Il giorno 15 mar 2016, alle ore 22:29, Lodewijk <
>> lodew...@effeietsanders.org> ha scritto:
>>
>> If membership is required to be a participant under this structure, 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Leila Zia, 15/03/2016 16:36:

I may have missed this: What is the process for stopping the membership
at some point in the future? Do members have to stay as members for a
minimum number of days/months/years?


By definition (in the law) a "comitato" only exists to serve its 
purpose, so after Wikimania is completed and wrapped up I assume it will 
be easily disbanded. (This is just my personal guess, I didn't check 
sources nor the team.)


Nemo

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Re: [Wikimania-l] Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016

[Cristian Consonni]

Hi,

2016-03-17 23:55 GMT+01:00 Risker :
> Nemo, it's not standard practice. I've been to four or five wikimanias and
> never had to join an association to go there. I have never had to join an
> association to attend any other Wikimedia-related conference, session, or
> activity. The Wikimedia movement has openly embraced the lack of requirement
> to identify or create an account/membership to participate since day one of
> its existence.  The budget of Wikimania should be published onwiki, it
> should be transparent (to use the current buzzword) to everyone, and nobody
> should have to pay money in order to find out its budget.

Before we get dragged too much into the philosophical question of what
being Truly Wikimedian (TM) really means I would like to point out a
little more of the context, with the disclaimer that: (1) I am not a
lawyer and (2) I am not/was not part of the group that made the
specific decision of setting up the association (3) I hope that
Iolanda and the team can find a solution to accommodate any specific
need.

Here some context:

(a) When you arrive in Italy if you stay for more than 48 hours, the
person/organization hosting you (regardless of your citizenship, this
applies to Italian citizens as well if they are staying in some place
that is not their habitual residence) must communicate within 8 days
your presence and your data to the local Questura (basically, the
government branch managing the police force). This is why in all
hotels, hostels, B and even in places such as AirBnB apartments you
are usually asked to provide data such as your passport number. This
is to say that the idea of lack of identification is understandable in
general and easy to apply on the internet, but it is less so when you
are staying somewhere.

(b) Setting up a company is more costly and complex than setting up an
association, moreover there is no equivalent in Italy of the concept
of "Public-benefit corporations". Setting up a Foundation is expensive
as well. Futhermore, setting up a company excludes (as per the law)
the possibility of accessing some facilitations that are provided to
non-profit associations. Not secondarily, if you are a company
basically it is assumed that all of your activities are meant to
generate a profit even if you actually do not make one. So, you are
basically required to pay taxes even if as a non-profit you can get an
exemption.

(c) Related to (b) the Italian law makes a distinction between events
that are (mainly? I am not sure) organized for the members of an
associations and events that are (mainly) organized for the general
public. In the former case the regulations are easier to fulfill.

As I said, I am sure that Iolanda and the team will look further into
the matter and try to solve any issue that you may have. The general
setting for which an association is needed, however, is the one
presented above.

Ciao,

C

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Re: [Wikimania-l] Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016

[Gabriel Thullen]

I will add my grain of salt to this discussion.
When I was young, and I was traveling a lot, I would stay in Youth Hostels.
Membership was mandatory.
Things have changed a bit, Youth Hostels now call themselves "Hostelling
International" and in most places membership is no longer mandatory. But
members (of any national organization) get all sorts of discounts and other
perks.

I do not understand what the problem is if a membership is required in
order to attend Wikimania. Does anybody have a Real Life example where such
a membership has posed a problem ? Or are we just kibitzing to pass the
time until June ?

Gabe

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 2:43 AM, Cristian Consonni 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> 2016-03-17 23:55 GMT+01:00 Risker :
> > Nemo, it's not standard practice. I've been to four or five wikimanias
> and
> > never had to join an association to go there. I have never had to join an
> > association to attend any other Wikimedia-related conference, session, or
> > activity. The Wikimedia movement has openly embraced the lack of
> requirement
> > to identify or create an account/membership to participate since day one
> of
> > its existence.  The budget of Wikimania should be published onwiki, it
> > should be transparent (to use the current buzzword) to everyone, and
> nobody
> > should have to pay money in order to find out its budget.
>
> Before we get dragged too much into the philosophical question of what
> being Truly Wikimedian (TM) really means I would like to point out a
> little more of the context, with the disclaimer that: (1) I am not a
> lawyer and (2) I am not/was not part of the group that made the
> specific decision of setting up the association (3) I hope that
> Iolanda and the team can find a solution to accommodate any specific
> need.
>
> Here some context:
>
> (a) When you arrive in Italy if you stay for more than 48 hours, the
> person/organization hosting you (regardless of your citizenship, this
> applies to Italian citizens as well if they are staying in some place
> that is not their habitual residence) must communicate within 8 days
> your presence and your data to the local Questura (basically, the
> government branch managing the police force). This is why in all
> hotels, hostels, B and even in places such as AirBnB apartments you
> are usually asked to provide data such as your passport number. This
> is to say that the idea of lack of identification is understandable in
> general and easy to apply on the internet, but it is less so when you
> are staying somewhere.
>
> (b) Setting up a company is more costly and complex than setting up an
> association, moreover there is no equivalent in Italy of the concept
> of "Public-benefit corporations". Setting up a Foundation is expensive
> as well. Futhermore, setting up a company excludes (as per the law)
> the possibility of accessing some facilitations that are provided to
> non-profit associations. Not secondarily, if you are a company
> basically it is assumed that all of your activities are meant to
> generate a profit even if you actually do not make one. So, you are
> basically required to pay taxes even if as a non-profit you can get an
> exemption.
>
> (c) Related to (b) the Italian law makes a distinction between events
> that are (mainly? I am not sure) organized for the members of an
> associations and events that are (mainly) organized for the general
> public. In the former case the regulations are easier to fulfill.
>
> As I said, I am sure that Iolanda and the team will look further into
> the matter and try to solve any issue that you may have. The general
> setting for which an association is needed, however, is the one
> presented above.
>
> Ciao,
>
> C
>
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016

[Iolanda Pensa]

There are no other solutions. 

Just to understand the logic behind it:
If you go to the hilton you pay the hilton and you receive a receipt from this 
company. It is your decision if you are ok in paying that company and to use 
its service.
In the case of Esino Lario you join an association, since we are not the 
hilton, we are not a company and we are managing the event with volunteers and 
a completely different structure to make a 761 village capable of hosting a 
quite large event without being structured to do so (we are literally creating 
most of the things from scratches). The aim of the association is to manage 
events and specifically Wikimania. Once the event is over the association will 
have 0 budget (used to cover with the income received from the registrations 
the expenses related to the members-participants); the association and the 
membership – as the name of the association clearly communicates - is meant for 
Wikimania 2016. A committee would have been an easier structure (we initially 
registered it as a committee) but this December 2015, in Italy committee do not 
exist any longer as registered institutions (but we want an officially 
registered institution to make everything clear and correct even if of course - 
as many of you know - it is complex and longer than doing things informally).

It would have been nice to have Wikimedia Italia managing all this, but in 2014 
Wikimedia Italia decided that it was too complicated and they did not have 
enough staff to do it.
So in Esino Lario we applied for fundings through Associazione Amici del Museo 
delle Grigne Onlus (an association of volunteers without staff)
and we established this new association to make the management and the 
accountability of Wikimania possible, transparent and correct (also in this 
case an association of volunteers without staff).

This choice was thought through and please do not hesitate to ask any further 
question.
thanks
iolanda

> Il giorno 15 mar 2016, alle ore 22:29, Lodewijk  
> ha scritto:
> 
> If membership is required to be a participant under this structure, such a 
> solution would require all participants to become a member of Wikimedia 
> Italia. Which is maybe less ideal than becoming member of something that is 
> meant to be temporary. 
> 
> Still it is an odd situation to be honest... Iolanda: are there solutions for 
> people who don't want to become a member, or cannot become a member because 
> of their job etc? Perhaps at a higher fee if necessary (not sure if this 
> construction gives tax benefits etc)
> 
> Lodewijk
> 
> Lodewijk
> 
> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 9:31 PM, Michael Peel  > wrote:
> Couldn't Wikimedia Italia do this?
> 
> Thanks,
> Mike
> 
>> On 15 Mar 2016, at 11:44, Iolanda Pensa > > wrote:
>> 
>> Here is the explanation of why we created a Committee which is an 
>> association managing Wikimania[1].
>> 
>> I’ll add the answers also online:
>> 1. we needed an institution managing the income from the registration and 
>> the expenses which involve a very large number of people (priviate, not only 
>> companies); the institution we established is a non profit (it doesn’t share 
>> the income among anyone), it is managed by volunteers with experience in 
>> accounting and it is a specific institution with a separate bank account 
>> from Associazione Amici del Museo delle Grigne Onlus (which as an onlus is 
>> not the appropriate institution). 
>> 2. we created an association according to the advice of experts in 
>> associations and management. since we have a non profit nature, associating 
>> the participants for the event is the solution which has been chosen as the 
>> only suitable to allow us to collect the payments and to reimburse the flats 
>> and to pay the other expenses linked to food, accommodation, transport, 
>> insurance and t-shirts and welcome begs. the association (committees in 
>> Italy do not exist since December 2015) has the specific objective to 
>> promote and organize the event Wikimania (the name of the association is 
>> Associazione Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016), which is also the reason 
>> we created it.
>> 3. the fee is 1 euro because we need to have a fee and it is of course 
>> included in all the registration; fees simply contribute as all the rest of 
>> the income to the expenses for the participants.
>> 4. you can see the names of the members of the board in the link and also in 
>> our team[2]
>> 5. yesterday the association had a meeting to record all the regulations 
>> which coincide with the information you find on the website (different types 
>> of registration costs and i am uploading also the regulations related to the 
>> support for the most active volunteers)
>> 6. all documents of the association are uploaded online and you can review 
>> everything. i’ll be adding the other documents and we 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016

[Lodewijk]

If membership is required to be a participant under this structure, such a
solution would require all participants to become a member of Wikimedia
Italia. Which is maybe less ideal than becoming member of something that is
meant to be temporary.

Still it is an odd situation to be honest... Iolanda: are there solutions
for people who don't want to become a member, or cannot become a member
because of their job etc? Perhaps at a higher fee if necessary (not sure if
this construction gives tax benefits etc)

Lodewijk

Lodewijk

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 9:31 PM, Michael Peel  wrote:

> Couldn't Wikimedia Italia do this?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> On 15 Mar 2016, at 11:44, Iolanda Pensa  wrote:
>
> Here is the explanation of why we created a Committee which is an
> association managing Wikimania[1].
>
> I’ll add the answers also online:
> 1. we needed an institution managing the income from the registration and
> the expenses which involve a very large number of people (priviate, not
> only companies); the institution we established is a non profit (it doesn’t
> share the income among anyone), it is managed by volunteers with experience
> in accounting and it is a specific institution with a separate bank account
> from Associazione Amici del Museo delle Grigne Onlus (which as an onlus is
> not the appropriate institution).
> 2. we created an association according to the advice of experts in
> associations and management. since we have a non profit nature, associating
> the participants for the event is the solution which has been chosen as the
> only suitable to allow us to collect the payments and to reimburse the
> flats and to pay the other expenses linked to food, accommodation,
> transport, insurance and t-shirts and welcome begs. the association
> (committees in Italy do not exist since December 2015) has the specific
> objective to promote and organize the event Wikimania (the name of the
> association is Associazione Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016), which is
> also the reason we created it.
> 3. the fee is 1 euro because we need to have a fee and it is of course
> included in all the registration; fees simply contribute as all the rest of
> the income to the expenses for the participants.
> 4. you can see the names of the members of the board in the link and also
> in our team[2]
> 5. yesterday the association had a meeting to record all the regulations
> which coincide with the information you find on the website (different
> types of registration costs and i am uploading also the regulations related
> to the support for the most active volunteers)
> 6. all documents of the association are uploaded online and you can review
> everything. i’ll be adding the other documents and we are preparing some of
> the translations.
> 7. for personal data we apply the Italian legislation. Data are collected
> to allow us to organize Wikimania and support the participants
> (registration, accommodation, wifi, police registration for foreigners
> requested by law); with this objective in mind, only people who need the
> data to organize Wikimania and support the participants have access to them.
>
> please do not hesitate to let me know if you have any further question
> iolanda
>
> [1]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2016_bids/Esino_Lario/Management#Accounting_and_bookkeeping
> [2] https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Team
>
> Il 13 mar 2016 23:40, "Bohdan Melnychuk"  ha scritto:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Please take a look at the discussion I initiate here:
>> https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration#Comitato_Wikimania_Esino_Lario_2016
>> It is about becoming a member of Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016 as
>> asked in Wikimania registration process.
>>
>> Yours,
>>  --Base
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
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>
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>
>
>
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>
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016

[Michael Peel]

Couldn't Wikimedia Italia do this?

Thanks,
Mike

> On 15 Mar 2016, at 11:44, Iolanda Pensa  wrote:
> 
> Here is the explanation of why we created a Committee which is an association 
> managing Wikimania[1].
> 
> I’ll add the answers also online:
> 1. we needed an institution managing the income from the registration and the 
> expenses which involve a very large number of people (priviate, not only 
> companies); the institution we established is a non profit (it doesn’t share 
> the income among anyone), it is managed by volunteers with experience in 
> accounting and it is a specific institution with a separate bank account from 
> Associazione Amici del Museo delle Grigne Onlus (which as an onlus is not the 
> appropriate institution). 
> 2. we created an association according to the advice of experts in 
> associations and management. since we have a non profit nature, associating 
> the participants for the event is the solution which has been chosen as the 
> only suitable to allow us to collect the payments and to reimburse the flats 
> and to pay the other expenses linked to food, accommodation, transport, 
> insurance and t-shirts and welcome begs. the association (committees in Italy 
> do not exist since December 2015) has the specific objective to promote and 
> organize the event Wikimania (the name of the association is Associazione 
> Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016), which is also the reason we created it.
> 3. the fee is 1 euro because we need to have a fee and it is of course 
> included in all the registration; fees simply contribute as all the rest of 
> the income to the expenses for the participants.
> 4. you can see the names of the members of the board in the link and also in 
> our team[2]
> 5. yesterday the association had a meeting to record all the regulations 
> which coincide with the information you find on the website (different types 
> of registration costs and i am uploading also the regulations related to the 
> support for the most active volunteers)
> 6. all documents of the association are uploaded online and you can review 
> everything. i’ll be adding the other documents and we are preparing some of 
> the translations.
> 7. for personal data we apply the Italian legislation. Data are collected to 
> allow us to organize Wikimania and support the participants (registration, 
> accommodation, wifi, police registration for foreigners requested by law); 
> with this objective in mind, only people who need the data to organize 
> Wikimania and support the participants have access to them.
> 
> please do not hesitate to let me know if you have any further question
> iolanda
> 
> [1] 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2016_bids/Esino_Lario/Management#Accounting_and_bookkeeping
>  
> 
> [2] https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Team 
> 
>> Il 13 mar 2016 23:40, "Bohdan Melnychuk" > > ha scritto:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Please take a look at the discussion I initiate here: 
>> https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration#Comitato_Wikimania_Esino_Lario_2016
>>  
>> 
>> It is about becoming a member of Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016 as 
>> asked in Wikimania registration process.
>> 
>> Yours,
>>  --Base
>> 
>> ___
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l 
>> 
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
> 
> ___
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l 
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016

[Leila Zia]

Hi Iolanda,

Thank you for this explanation, and also all the work all of you are doing
for organizing this event. :)

I may have missed this: What is the process for stopping the membership at
some point in the future? Do members have to stay as members for a minimum
number of days/months/years?

Best,
Leila


Leila Zia
Research Scientist
Wikimedia Foundation

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 4:44 AM, Iolanda Pensa  wrote:

> Here is the explanation of why we created a Committee which is an
> association managing Wikimania[1].
>
> I’ll add the answers also online:
> 1. we needed an institution managing the income from the registration and
> the expenses which involve a very large number of people (priviate, not
> only companies); the institution we established is a non profit (it doesn’t
> share the income among anyone), it is managed by volunteers with experience
> in accounting and it is a specific institution with a separate bank account
> from Associazione Amici del Museo delle Grigne Onlus (which as an onlus is
> not the appropriate institution).
> 2. we created an association according to the advice of experts in
> associations and management. since we have a non profit nature, associating
> the participants for the event is the solution which has been chosen as the
> only suitable to allow us to collect the payments and to reimburse the
> flats and to pay the other expenses linked to food, accommodation,
> transport, insurance and t-shirts and welcome begs. the association
> (committees in Italy do not exist since December 2015) has the specific
> objective to promote and organize the event Wikimania (the name of the
> association is Associazione Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016), which is
> also the reason we created it.
> 3. the fee is 1 euro because we need to have a fee and it is of course
> included in all the registration; fees simply contribute as all the rest of
> the income to the expenses for the participants.
> 4. you can see the names of the members of the board in the link and also
> in our team[2]
> 5. yesterday the association had a meeting to record all the regulations
> which coincide with the information you find on the website (different
> types of registration costs and i am uploading also the regulations related
> to the support for the most active volunteers)
> 6. all documents of the association are uploaded online and you can review
> everything. i’ll be adding the other documents and we are preparing some of
> the translations.
> 7. for personal data we apply the Italian legislation. Data are collected
> to allow us to organize Wikimania and support the participants
> (registration, accommodation, wifi, police registration for foreigners
> requested by law); with this objective in mind, only people who need the
> data to organize Wikimania and support the participants have access to them.
>
> please do not hesitate to let me know if you have any further question
> iolanda
>
> [1]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2016_bids/Esino_Lario/Management#Accounting_and_bookkeeping
> [2] https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Team
>
> Il 13 mar 2016 23:40, "Bohdan Melnychuk"  ha scritto:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Please take a look at the discussion I initiate here:
>> https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration#Comitato_Wikimania_Esino_Lario_2016
>> It is about becoming a member of Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016 as
>> asked in Wikimania registration process.
>>
>> Yours,
>>  --Base
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
> ___
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> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016

[Iolanda Pensa]

Here is the explanation of why we created a Committee which is an association 
managing Wikimania[1].

I’ll add the answers also online:
1. we needed an institution managing the income from the registration and the 
expenses which involve a very large number of people (priviate, not only 
companies); the institution we established is a non profit (it doesn’t share 
the income among anyone), it is managed by volunteers with experience in 
accounting and it is a specific institution with a separate bank account from 
Associazione Amici del Museo delle Grigne Onlus (which as an onlus is not the 
appropriate institution). 
2. we created an association according to the advice of experts in associations 
and management. since we have a non profit nature, associating the participants 
for the event is the solution which has been chosen as the only suitable to 
allow us to collect the payments and to reimburse the flats and to pay the 
other expenses linked to food, accommodation, transport, insurance and t-shirts 
and welcome begs. the association (committees in Italy do not exist since 
December 2015) has the specific objective to promote and organize the event 
Wikimania (the name of the association is Associazione Comitato Wikimania Esino 
Lario 2016), which is also the reason we created it.
3. the fee is 1 euro because we need to have a fee and it is of course included 
in all the registration; fees simply contribute as all the rest of the income 
to the expenses for the participants.
4. you can see the names of the members of the board in the link and also in 
our team[2]
5. yesterday the association had a meeting to record all the regulations which 
coincide with the information you find on the website (different types of 
registration costs and i am uploading also the regulations related to the 
support for the most active volunteers)
6. all documents of the association are uploaded online and you can review 
everything. i’ll be adding the other documents and we are preparing some of the 
translations.
7. for personal data we apply the Italian legislation. Data are collected to 
allow us to organize Wikimania and support the participants (registration, 
accommodation, wifi, police registration for foreigners requested by law); with 
this objective in mind, only people who need the data to organize Wikimania and 
support the participants have access to them.

please do not hesitate to let me know if you have any further question
iolanda

[1] 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2016_bids/Esino_Lario/Management#Accounting_and_bookkeeping
[2] https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Team

> Il 13 mar 2016 23:40, "Bohdan Melnychuk"  > ha scritto:
> Hello,
> 
> Please take a look at the discussion I initiate here: 
> https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration#Comitato_Wikimania_Esino_Lario_2016
>  
> 
> It is about becoming a member of Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016 as asked 
> in Wikimania registration process.
> 
> Yours,
>  --Base
> 
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> 
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016

[Luca Martinelli]

???

L.
Il 13 mar 2016 23:40, "Bohdan Melnychuk"  ha scritto:

> Hello,
>
> Please take a look at the discussion I initiate here:
> https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration#Comitato_Wikimania_Esino_Lario_2016
> It is about becoming a member of Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016 as
> asked in Wikimania registration process.
>
> Yours,
>  --Base
>
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[Wikimania-l] Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016

[Bohdan Melnychuk]

Hello,

Please take a look at the discussion I initiate here: 
https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration#Comitato_Wikimania_Esino_Lario_2016
It is about becoming a member of Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016 as 
asked in Wikimania registration process.


Yours,
 --Base

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